Skip to main content

2024 son wants to attend camp at a mid major D1 program this winter. This school still has openings for his class. His Achilles heal is his 60 time...he's still right at 7.0 seconds. He's a corner outfielder and has an elite bat. His secondary position is 2B. Would you send him to the camp or wait until he's sub 7 sec?

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Have the coaches had any conversations with your son? Would the camp require a hotel and airfare? Where is the school on his target list? And one last one to consider (I don't expect an answer but you should think about it), will this impact your ability later to pay for another camp down the road?

One of the things my son considered (on the advice of a recruiter and coaches) a 2 day camp is 3-4 days you're not in the gym or training. This time of year the kids are limited by the calendar to a specific number of days where they can work towards their goals before the spring practices start.

If the goal of the camp is to be discovered I'd save your time and money. If that isn't the goal then I would consider the other factors I mentioned above.

Have the coaches had any conversations with your son? Would the camp require a hotel and airfare? Where is the school on his target list? And one last one to consider (I don't expect an answer but you should think about it), will this impact your ability later to pay for another camp down the road?

One of the things my son considered (on the advice of a recruiter and coaches) a 2 day camp is 3-4 days you're not in the gym or training. This time of year the kids are limited by the calendar to a specific number of days where they can work towards their goals before the spring practices start.

If the goal of the camp is to be discovered I'd save your time and money. If that isn't the goal then I would consider the other factors I mentioned above.

No airfare or hotel required. Email conversation only (direct personal ones that aren't mass emails). From the conversations, they are aware of him...just need an opportunity to actually "see" him. This camp is affordable and won't impact our ability to pay for another camp down the road. It's a half-day camp and will not impact his off-season training. It may impact his availability schedule down the road, as there seems to be a lot of college camps held in August.

We have concerns that the 7.0sec 60 time would scratch him off their list. Could a 7.0 time be negative exposure at a camp?

My son ran a 7.07 the summer before his junior year and PG Jr. Nationals (he did not run his best), ran a 6.7 a PG Nationals and 6.57 at East Coast Pro. They are still growing/developing so I would not let a 7.0 keep him from going to a camp of a school that has an interest. Especially if he takes good routes on balls (tell him to actually make plays on balls when they are shagging...not every single one but enough so that they can see what he does in the outfield) and has good instincts on the basepaths.

@Momball11 posted:

He thinks it's better to wait because an OF should be sub 7.0

  That’s not good advice if your son really has an “elite” bat. No college coach worth his salt is gonna say, “ I really like the way that kid squares up the baseball. He appears to be an elite hitter. But I just can’t recruit him until he shaves a tenth of a second off that 60 time.” Good case in point would be Sonny D. That kid can’t run out of his shadow. But he can really hit. Hit tool trumps all.

@adbono posted:

  That’s not good advice if your son really has an “elite” bat. No college coach worth his salt is gonna say, “ I really like the way that kid squares up the baseball. He appears to be an elite hitter. But I just can’t recruit him until he shaves a tenth of a second off that 60 time.” Good case in point would be Sonny D. That kid can’t run out of his shadow. But he can really hit. Hit tool trumps all.

This is what I was thinking and that's why I figured I should get multiple opinions.

@Momball11 posted:

This is what I was thinking and that's why I figured I should get multiple opinions.

Sometimes it’s hard to figure out who to listen to. I don’t know anything about your particular travel ball coach. But I have coached 20 seasons of travel ball and I know a lot about travel ball coaches in general. More than not, they are not as tuned into college recruiting as they want you to think they are.

I agree with this - but at the least, in a situation like this, I would hope that the travel coach has contacted the coach at the school about your son, to gauge interest.  When he says to wait, he is likely telling you that he's not willing to recommend your son to that school now.  He may have previous experience with how these schools recruit.  Or conversely, he may not know much at all.  I would suggest that you have a detailed conversation with him about your son's recruiting, because, at the end of the day, he's a person who will tell college coaches whether your son can play at that level - even if he's wrong, I'd think you need to know where he stands.  And, if you don't trust him, then you need to find someone you do trust.

I say this because my son was similar with the 60-time, and the travel coach kept saying "get it lower" without really explaining why - he also kept saying "could be mid-major D1" which is the slipperiest statement in high school baseball.  We were too shy to ask.  He's at a D3.

When you say your son is an elite hitter, do you mean hitting is his best tool?  Hits for power (exit velo)?  or average?  Has a high batting average, gets on base a lot?

I agree with this - but at the least, in a situation like this, I would hope that the travel coach has contacted the coach at the school about your son, to gauge interest.  When he says to wait, he is likely telling you that he's not willing to recommend your son to that school now.  He may have previous experience with how these schools recruit.  Or conversely, he may not know much at all.  I would suggest that you have a detailed conversation with him about your son's recruiting, because, at the end of the day, he's a person who will tell college coaches whether your son can play at that level - even if he's wrong, I'd think you need to know where he stands.  And, if you don't trust him, then you need to find someone you do trust.

I say this because my son was similar with the 60-time, and the travel coach kept saying "get it lower" without really explaining why - he also kept saying "could be mid-major D1" which is the slipperiest statement in high school baseball.  We were too shy to ask.  He's at a D3.

When you say your son is an elite hitter, do you mean hitting is his best tool?  Hits for power (exit velo)?  or average?  Has a high batting average, gets on base a lot?

Hitting is definitely his best tool. His exit velo is upper 90s. His average is typically around .400 (+/- .020 depending on pitching). OBP ranges from .450-.500.

We have had detailed conversations about his recruiting with his travel coach. Coach has called schools where he has contacts, but I'm not sure how much clout he has with them because he's relatively new to the coaching side. He does have many contacts from when he played college and in the MiLB.

@Momball11 posted:

Hitting is definitely his best tool. His exit velo is upper 90s. His average is typically around .400 (+/- .020 depending on pitching). OBP ranges from .450-.500.

Agree with Adbono and TPM... for a corner OF that hits for power, 7.0 isn't a big red flag.  The .400 average and OBP #s you shared are meaningless without competitive context.  Similarly, high exit velo on it's own doesn't speak to how it might translate.  If he shows that he hits good pitching well and with power, he will draw attention just fine at 7.0.  It seems like the event lines up well in every other way.  If he is this kind of elite bat now, he should go.

Last edited by cabbagedad

I will add....

It is nice to go to at least one camp when you have something to show.  If nothing else, but to see how it is run, learn how to interact with coaches, get some metrics, and see how you measure up to the other players there.  The one camp keewartson went to was at a school most any baseball player would love to attend (a CWS contender and winner).  It was a two day camp, but we could drive from home.  Coach spoke with the parents on the second day about recruiting, etc.  Totally worth it....for one camp.

Exit velo upper 90's?  Get him to the camp and in front of the coaches, especially since you said they are aware of him, but need to see him.   They won't care if he is a 7.0 or a 6.8.  My son was being recruited by 2 mid-majors (likely as a 2B) and wasn't a sub 7.0 guy.  It was never mentioned once by either of the guys recruiting him.  He ended up as a PO for 3 years and then played DH/1B his senior year due to an arm injury.  He was plenty fast enough to get doubles because of his bat.  Oh, and maybe consider a new travel ball coach lol

From what you said, depending on your sons bat, you probably are at a crossroads. If the coach doesn’t have credibility with college coaches, that can be a problem. We came to that CrossRoad with my son. I was speaking to the owner of my son’s club and explaining that he needed an advocate. We weren’t a power team and coaches weren’t just showing up to watch.  He told me he would call my son’s dream school  IF he  had a good summer. I told him my son had been talking to the coach for months due to a camp we attended and they kept him after.  We decided then that we needed a new club or had to focus on showcases and camps. We loved our team so we attended a lot of camps (uninvited) and PBR or PG showcases. He ended up talking with several P5 coaches just from attending the camps. I would say all interest and offers he got were based completely outside of our travel club and he became heavily recruited.

Last edited by baseballhs
@Momball11 posted:

Yeah, as I was typing up that information I was thinking to myself..."how will any of those values matter without the competitive context?", but @anotherparent requested the information, so I obliged.

Well, I asked for it because you said "elite hitter" which is kind of vague.  How can a college coach evaluate "eliteness" other than with EV plus seeing how he performed against D1-bound pitchers?

When you to go camps and to high-level tournaments, you see that there are a lot of kids who can hit and field and have high EV and run a sub-7 60 and really understand the game, have to be seen to be appreciated, etc.  More kids than there are D1 roster spots.

Well, I asked for it because you said "elite hitter" which is kind of vague.  How can a college coach evaluate "eliteness" other than with EV plus seeing how he performed against D1-bound pitchers?

When you to go camps and to high-level tournaments, you see that there are a lot of kids who can hit and field and have high EV and run a sub-7 60 and really understand the game, have to be seen to be appreciated, etc.  More kids than there are D1 roster spots.

Son's been to three P5 camps. We've seen some great players. Overall there's always been a variety and I think that's because there's quite a spectrum of players that are at different stages of development. Everyone has a unique timeline of their own. We didn't really care about his performance at these camps as he's not too interested in one and the others are probably close or already finished with their 2024 recruiting class. He hit well at the camps.

I would love for him to have more opportunities to hit against D1-bound pitchers. He got a good amount of opportunities to hit against current college arms and still hit well.

Even with everyone's responses I'm leaning toward waiting a little longer. It seems to me that the transfer portal has pushed back recruiting, so I think we can wait a maybe another month to see if some work with a sprint coach will make the necessary adjustments to drop just a little bit more. Thank you everyone for your thoughts.

I take Momball11 at her word when she mentions her son has an elite bat and her evaluation is fine with me.  All of our sons, to an extent are big fish in small ponds and that is why there may be some skepticism trying to evaluate posts here from words (or stats) alone.   When you get to the college level, every guy has something going for him and your son's job is to beat them out.  Making matters worse, your sons in many cases are boys trying to beat out established men.  It is one of the most difficult challenges one can imagine.  Mental toughness and heart play a huge role in whether or not someone ever gets on to the playing field.

That said, back to the  original topic about 7.0 and/or other measurables.   adbono is right about too much emphasis placed on the measurables.  Coaches at the end of the day are looking for winning players - good hitters and pitchers who don't hang their head when everything doesn't go their way each and every time out.  Really good players can beat you in multiple ways.  Maybe they went 0-4 on a given day but they made great, game-changing plays defensively or used heads-up baserunning to help score additional runs.  Maybe a pitcher gets roughed up early in a game, but he has the mental toughness to hang in there and give his offense a chance to win the game late.  This question is to everyone out there - is your guy one of those guys?

Here is a real world story and of course anecdotal evidence of one, but it demonstrates how much uncertainty there is.  Gary Gilmore of Coastal Carolina is one of the winningest coaches in all of D1 baseball highlighted by the 2016 national championship.  He mentioned in a newspaper article that they found this lightly recruited guy out of Canada.  They took a flyer on him and invited him down.  Apparently, the kid had no other offers pending and it was very late in the recruiting process.  In batting practice and based on that alone, they offered him a scholarship on the spot.  Unfortunately for Coastal, a Cincinnati Reds scout happened to be at that workout and he saw the same thing Coastal did - an elite bat.  There were no exit velocity tests back then - it was strictly the eye and ear test - how far does it go, how often does it go there, and what does the ball sound like coming off the bat.  Guys that know what they are looking for, know it when they see/hear it.

Here is the now 39 year old "kid's" PG profile.    From the sounds of it, Momball11's son may already have better measurables (e.g., footspeed, arm talent) than this guy.  Read the write-up and notice the scouting report about how they evaluated his bat.

https://www.perfectgame.org/pl...ofile.aspx?ID=118560

For those uninterested in clicking on the link, that player's name was Joey Votto.     

Last edited by ClevelandDad
@Momball11 posted:

2024 son wants to attend camp at a mid major D1 program this winter. This school still has openings for his class. His Achilles heal is his 60 time...he's still right at 7.0 seconds. He's a corner outfielder and has an elite bat. His secondary position is 2B. Would you send him to the camp or wait until he's sub 7 sec?

If your son wants to attend this camp, and there are openings for 2024, waiting for him to improve on a 60 time is NOT necessary.

JMO

Last edited by TPM

I take Momball11 at her word when she mentions her son has an elite bat and her evaluation is fine with me.

Thanks. I'm not planning on him being the next Joey Votto though. We're just taking this all one step at a time and putting our focus on the 40-year plan. Really neat to hear about Joey's background story.

I would like to keep my and my son's identity private on the public side of the forum, so that is why it's hard for me to give too much detailed information.

@adbono posted:

I looked up the definition of HSBBW in the urban dictionary. It said :

HSBBW - a message board about baseball, where inexperienced people ask questions and get feedback, advice, & suggestions from more experienced people - and then don’t listen to it.

Lol! Actually I'm now in the mindset of letting the boy decide (I'm going to share with him everything that was said). I'm not sure my husband is going to have the same opinion, so I'm not sure what will happen.

@Momball11 posted:

2024 son wants to attend camp at a mid major D1 program this winter. This school still has openings for his class. His Achilles heal is his 60 time...he's still right at 7.0 seconds. He's a corner outfielder and has an elite bat. His secondary position is 2B. Would you send him to the camp or wait until he's sub 7 sec?

I will give the qualifying phrase "Everyone's recruitment is different",  but I have found so far with my 2024 RHP that the camps have not been a productive use of time and money with his recruitment.

My opinions is strictly based upon our experience, but with the mid-major camps that my son attended, I believe that their are two types of kids that attend those camps.   

1) The kid that has already been recruited by the school and they have already offered or are 90% sure that they are going to offer.   I know of two kids this past year that fell into this category.  They went to the camp and were offered the following week, but they had been talking to the assistant coaches of that school for quite a while. 

2) The second type of kid that attends the camp is the kid that has had no communication with any of the coaches other than and email invitation.   Those kids are not getting any consideration and are there only to provide some income for the program and or assistant coaches.   In my opinion this is 99% of the kids that attend the camps.

I know one camp that my son attended with one of his travel ball team mates.  His team mate had been communicating with the school for several months prior to the camp.  My son actually put up better numbers at the camp, but he didn't even get so much as a conversation with the coaches while the other kid received an offer the following week.   

I just don't think that anything happens at a camp that gets the attention of a coach.  Maybe if you are pitcher and stroll off the mound having pumped 94 mph fastballs, but for the most part, I think that coaches already have their minds made up about who they are offering well before the camps for Jr. and Sr. players.   

@Ster posted:

I will give the qualifying phrase "Everyone's recruitment is different",  but I have found so far with my 2024 RHP that the camps have not been a productive use of time and money with his recruitment.

My opinions is strictly based upon our experience, but with the mid-major camps that my son attended, I believe that their are two types of kids that attend those camps.   

1) The kid that has already been recruited by the school and they have already offered or are 90% sure that they are going to offer.   I know of two kids this past year that fell into this category.  They went to the camp and were offered the following week, but they had been talking to the assistant coaches of that school for quite a while.

2) The second type of kid that attends the camp is the kid that has had no communication with any of the coaches other than and email invitation.   Those kids are not getting any consideration and are there only to provide some income for the program and or assistant coaches.   In my opinion this is 99% of the kids that attend the camps.

I know one camp that my son attended with one of his travel ball team mates.  His team mate had been communicating with the school for several months prior to the camp.  My son actually put up better numbers at the camp, but he didn't even get so much as a conversation with the coaches while the other kid received an offer the following week.   

I just don't think that anything happens at a camp that gets the attention of a coach.  Maybe if you are pitcher and stroll off the mound having pumped 94 mph fastballs, but for the most part, I think that coaches already have their minds made up about who they are offering well before the camps for Jr. and Sr. players.   

Exactly my experience as well.

I will add - camps are usually divided into groups. And typically only players in a certain group (e.g. group A, group 1, blue team, etc) are being considered. Everyone else is there to pay the salary of the assistant coach; they would have to do something spectacular to get noticed. But I've seen non-recruits do spectacular things and get nothing more than an attaboy.

It's usually obvious pretty quickly which group is made up of the real recruits. Unless the camp is small enough that everyone is under consideration.

Another way to tell if you are under serious consideration is if they have you play against their existing commits.

Last edited by SpeedDemon

I agree.  Son only went to two camps.  One was a requirement by PBR to play in future's game and personal invite by the University coaching staff.  The coaching staff got son mixed up with someone else and didn't even talk to him all day then when the volunteer came to talk to us I told him that the information he was giving me was for the wrong kid.  Son struck out 5 of the 6 kids he faced on 16 pitches and the other popped up on 1 pitch.  Son hit a couple of HR's from each side in BP.   The volunteer stopped us before we got to the parking lot and told son he needed to work on his control pitching.  When I asked about hitting he said your son did not hit.  He was a PO.  We told him what son did pitching and hitting, BTW no one else hit one out.  Volunteer asked us to wait while he went to get the HC or AC.  I said no thank you.  We got what we came for which was to be eligible for PBR.  They tried to talk to us at PBR but son apologized and said he was busy.  Bad part was the past staff was ready to offer full ride the week before they were released.

The other school son went to camp because they pushed for it.  He took 6'4" LHP who threw 90 and hit well and was the second fastest HS kid in Missouri with him.  They never talked to son's friend.  They made son very good offer which we held onto until he accepted UT's offer.  I told them then that they missed on a great kid who would have helped their program but it helped me know that coaches don't look at camps other than the kids they invite.  Even LHP's throwing 90.

@PitchingFan posted:

I agree.  Son only went to two camps.  One was a requirement by PBR to play in future's game and personal invite by the University coaching staff.  The coaching staff got son mixed up with someone else and didn't even talk to him all day then when the volunteer came to talk to us I told him that the information he was giving me was for the wrong kid.  Son struck out 5 of the 6 kids he faced on 16 pitches and the other popped up on 1 pitch.  Son hit a couple of HR's from each side in BP.   The volunteer stopped us before we got to the parking lot and told son he needed to work on his control pitching.  When I asked about hitting he said your son did not hit.  He was a PO.  We told him what son did pitching and hitting, BTW no one else hit one out.  Volunteer asked us to wait while he went to get the HC or AC.  I said no thank you.  We got what we came for which was to be eligible for PBR.  They tried to talk to us at PBR but son apologized and said he was busy.  Bad part was the past staff was ready to offer full ride the week before they were released.

The other school son went to camp because they pushed for it.  He took 6'4" LHP who threw 90 and hit well and was the second fastest HS kid in Missouri with him.  They never talked to son's friend.  They made son very good offer which we held onto until he accepted UT's offer.  I told them then that they missed on a great kid who would have helped their program but it helped me know that coaches don't look at camps other than the kids they invite.  Even LHP's throwing 90.

Yes, I think that you gave some very good examples of what these Prospect camps are like, at least that is the opinion I have gathered this past year from camps.  My son attended three prospect camps at Mid Major programs.  He put up impressive numbers at all three, but it really didn't matter because the staffs there already had their mind made up about which kids they really wanted to see.  The rest really just didn't matter.   We went to one SEC school prospect camp and the coaching staffs all watched the pitching performance of the first three pitchers that they put on the mound.   Once those three guys were finished, they spent the majority of the day talking to those three guys and then just visiting with one another.   They hardly even took the time to glance at the other kids that pitched and hit the rest of the day.

So, to go back to the OP's question about attending the camp, I would say that it really doesn't matter if your son runs a sub 7.0 or not.   If you aren't already getting phone calls from the assistant coaches from that school, there is probably nothing that your son can do at the camp to really put him on their radar.   

Another thing to consider, my son received an offer from a D1 school a couple of weeks ago, so he sent a text message to his travel ball director asking his opinion about the school etc...    The director called him back and they spoke for a while about some other schools that are possibly going to offer him in the near future that he has had conversations with.   He told my son something that really struck me.   He said, "right now the D1 schools are not likely to give any offers right now because they are going to wait and see what the transfer portal is going to look like after the spring."  He said that he expects every thing to come to a halt as far as 2023, 2024 recruiting until the end of spring and summer after all of the transfer portal names are entered.    This is especially true of for the Mid Majors as they wait to see how many Power 5 players that didn't get PT this spring decide to jump in the portal to move down to a mid major or low D1 team to get playing time.   

So, don't go into this January camp with big expectations.   

Last edited by Ster

We have observed the same sort of thing at the camps he has attended. The camps he has attended were attended without a personal invite. You could tell easily at one of the camps who was invited because they got more reps than the other campers and that's who they have their eyes on and talk to more. It is/was really frustrating to have him attend a camp and come away feeling like it was just a waste of money.

A lot of people recommend camps as the best "bang for your buck" investment, but the further we travel on this recruiting journey the more I am convinced it's very much a "who you know" sort of situation.

Son coached at the college level - ran or attended many college camps for different schools and entities.  Yes, most are largely a vehicle to pay assistants and are run with minimal hope or intention of finding strong recruits.  But there are also true prospect camps with specific invites to players the school wants to get on campus and get another look at.  Yes, sometimes one is blended into the other.

If you don't have prior dialog with specific arrangements to spend time with someone on staff then don't have expectations of "being seen" at that event.  There are exceptions.  This is the norm.

My son just attended his first camp, a mid major D1. This was in a cold weather state, and the entire full-day camp was outside. Temps were in the 20s when they started, never got higher than mid 30s. Nobody was told that it would be outside, but son brought a coldgear shirt & leggings just in case. There were a bunch of guys who didn't and were out there in just a t-shirt for 6 hours. The coaches all had winter coats on.

They ran the 60 first thing & the turf was coated with ice crystals. Just about everybody slipped at the start, and times were predictably worse than expected. It was impossible to stay loose, my son tweaked his arm during throwing drills because he couldn't stay warm while waiting around. BP was fine, guys dealt with the cold pretty well. They didn't do live ABs until the last hour & everyone's teeth were chattering. Only a few balls left the infield from the entire group. I'm not sure the coaching staff can get much evaluation in those conditions, and I'm surprised there weren't more injuries.

But there was money made.  That is the bottom line.  I was invited to help run one and the paid school coaches sat in the office that overlooked the field.  They watched college football most of the day.  I looked up there several times and none of them were looking at the field.  But there were over 150 kids on the field who paid $200 each.  Figure that up.  $30,000 goes a long way toward getting a volunteer assistant to come.  They ran one almost every weekend in the late summer and fall.  And there were over 100 kids there every weekend.

@947

Fall camps are tough due to poor weather. Don't attend unless they have a facility to move indoors.

Do your homework before you attend. Ask who will be running the camp.

Camps either belong to the HC or are run separately from the university.

In the larger programs, camps usually do not  include the assistant coaches, prospect camps maybe.

Again, it all depends on the program and how it's set up to do business.

@947 posted:

My son just attended his first camp, a mid major D1. This was in a cold weather state, and the entire full-day camp was outside. Temps were in the 20s when they started, never got higher than mid 30s. Nobody was told that it would be outside, but son brought a coldgear shirt & leggings just in case. There were a bunch of guys who didn't and were out there in just a t-shirt for 6 hours. The coaches all had winter coats on.

They ran the 60 first thing & the turf was coated with ice crystals. Just about everybody slipped at the start, and times were predictably worse than expected. It was impossible to stay loose, my son tweaked his arm during throwing drills because he couldn't stay warm while waiting around. BP was fine, guys dealt with the cold pretty well. They didn't do live ABs until the last hour & everyone's teeth were chattering. Only a few balls left the infield from the entire group. I'm not sure the coaching staff can get much evaluation in those conditions, and I'm surprised there weren't more injuries.

Please name the school.

Folks need to be aware of these things.

@TPM posted:

We really don't do things like that here. Folks should use suggestions given as to what to look for and ask questions.

JMO

?

Did the coaches tell the parents and players not to tell anyone they held an outdoor camp in 20- and 30-degree weather?  If not, then why would naming this school be a problem?

"We went to a daylong baseball camp at Higher Ed U that was held outdoors in freezing weather. Some of the athletes only had T-shirts on but the coaches wore parkas" is not controversial; it is a statement of fact.

My comment was not asking to "name and shame".  It does not violate community standards.

What a twisted, harsh interpretation. So much hubris. Such a negative, unempathetic worldview.

Last edited by SpeedDemon
@SpeedDemon posted:

?

Did the coaches tell the parents and players not to tell anyone they held an outdoor camp in 20- and 30-degree weather?  If not, then why would naming this school be a problem?

"We went to a daylong baseball camp at Higher Ed U that was held outdoors in freezing weather. Some of the athletes only had T-shirts on but the coaches wore parkas" is not controversial; it is a statement of fact.

My comment was not asking to "name and shame".  It does not violate community standards.

What a twisted, harsh interpretation. So much hubris. Such a negative, unemphatic worldview.

Anyone who needs to know send a pm.

@SpeedDemon, not naming schools is just how things are generally done here; you are way over-reacting.  There is, in fact, no need to name the school, the post by itself is a warning, that anyone should check on this kind of information before attending any winter camp.

It also emphatically illustrates that coaches are not taking camps seriously for evaluation.

@SpeedDemon, not naming schools is just how things are generally done here; you are way over-reacting.  There is, in fact, no need to name the school, the post by itself is a warning, that anyone should check on this kind of information before attending any winter camp.

It also emphatically illustrates that coaches are not taking camps seriously for evaluation.

I understand wanting to maintain a site that offers insights and keeps the discussion civil. Certainly, no one wants their site to be known as a place where people go to rage and bash others.

But there's a flipside that most posters here likely don't consider, esp if you're over 30 - nearly every group event these days is filmed and posted on social media. For events like a D1 baseball camp there are no doubt multiple videos and multiple posts.

Which means HSBBW posters in this case aren't giving up anything by naming the school - the information is already out there.

By attaching a name to a public action HSBBW can offer itself up as a more trusted, authoritative source of information vs say TikTok or YouTube. The audience for hyper-focused information that extends beyond a 10-second or 60-second video is huge. ref: Reddit.

Also, attaching proper names will improve the relevancy of this site to search engines, which will improve monetization. Google ranks websites based on the number of mentions of a specific search term combined with how many other sites containing that term link to the first site. HSBBW does itself no favors by taking itself out of the running for search results of "XXX University baseball camp".

@SpeedDemon, not naming schools is just how things are generally done here; you are way over-reacting.  There is, in fact, no need to name the school, the post by itself is a warning, that anyone should check on this kind of information before attending any winter camp.

It also emphatically illustrates that coaches are not taking camps seriously for evaluation.

Yet there is an entire topic that's called, "Ask about Colleges".

I agree with Speedemon.  Name the school.  If they did it, then it should be known.  You don't have to bash them in naming them.  You are just stating facts.  We do it all the time.  We talk about schools that give pay to play NIL deals.  We name Deion Sanders and Colorado as bad guys for their perceived behavior and I could go on and on with the threads over the past few months.  Why would this be any different?  If it is your opinion, then that is one thing but if it is truth then that is another.  Almost every one of us has been a part of calling out a coach or school that has done something wrong.  So why not this school that did not tell their participants that the camp was outdoors in the freezing weather.  But I will also say I blame parents because who lets their kid go to a camp in a cold weather state in the winter without cold gear if you are not sure.  I would have asked and I'm not the asking type normally.

@SpeedDemon posted:

?

Did the coaches tell the parents and players not to tell anyone they held an outdoor camp in 20- and 30-degree weather?  If not, then why would naming this school be a problem?

"We went to a daylong baseball camp at Higher Ed U that was held outdoors in freezing weather. Some of the athletes only had T-shirts on but the coaches wore parkas" is not controversial; it is a statement of fact.

My comment was not asking to "name and shame".  It does not violate community standards.

What a twisted, harsh interpretation. So much hubris. Such a negative, unempathetic worldview.

Hey Speed,

I understand your POV on the topic.  There have been times when I felt it would be appropriate to name names here as to warn others when necessary.  There are pro's and con's.  I think, ultimately, the site has it right by taking the high road on this.  The admins have done an great job of maintaining the generally civil, insightful, helpful nature of the site and this is part of those efforts.  To PF's point, a lot of us are guilty of stretching the bounds at times but still...

You say your comment was not asking to "name and shame" but in effect, it would.   You started an interesting thread back in March about parents saying abusive things to your kid.  Unfortunately, there are more of those parents in this world than should be and they tend to be the ones that would abuse an open policy here and turn this site into a b*tch session and make it very uncivil (call that a negative worldview on my part if you wish).   

Regarding your point about everything being video'd these days... you're right but that doesn't mean there aren't still proper etiquette guidelines - times and places where it is not appropriate to share or make public.  I'm not saying that particular event should be exempt, just saying this is probably not the forum for it, depending on how it is presented.   

As others have mentioned, PM can be used if someone has concerns that the school/coach/program/etc in question is one they might be dealing with.

Side note - I see you are from the Central Coast.  I don't remember whether I ever asked you but we lived there for many years until recently.  I'd be curious as to where.  You can PM me if preferred

Last edited by cabbagedad

If you look at the threads in "Ask about colleges," there is very little negative that is posted there.  I'm assuming that negative stuff, if any, gets sent in PMs.

When we discuss Sanders and other issues where schools are named, those are because they are in the national news.  Or sometimes because someone has looked at a roster, or because CBI has posted a bunch of data.  Not based on personal experiences, for the most part.

When someone has a negative personal experience, the school is usually not named.  As people often remind us, the baseball world is small.  Calling out an individual school  by name, even anonymously, is not a great idea, especially if you are in the middle of recruiting.

@adbono posted:

Fair point made by @cabbagedad, but I seem to recall a recent thread about over recruiting (which is blatant & widespread at the D1 level) where anecdotal examples were dismissed by certain posters as not relevant unless schools were named. So which is it?

Agree... sometimes the lines are grey.  I'm glad I'm not one of the ones that have to make those decisions .  I do have a pretty strong suspicion, though, of what the site would evolve into if it were a total free-for-all.  JMO, not good at all.  Hell, in my early days here, I was involved in more than a few ugly back-and-forths.  Wiser folks here helped me chill out.

Last edited by cabbagedad

I started and stopped a message a couple of times this morning, and I'm glad I stopped, because Cabbage made the point I was going for better than I would have.  I'll just say that RE Google, this site already ranks well, and as there is no effort here toward monetization, that is plenty.  In fact, I think that's where much of the danger in a free-for-all is.  Many users here have shared their names and/or their sons' names. Many others have left enough clues that it would be easy to figure out who they are.  Once you have users freely trashing coaches and their programs by name, everyone who posts here, whether they are involved or not, will become guilty by association with a website that will soon be known for this and become highly unpopular amongst folks who hold power over young men's futures.  Not a good idea, IMO.

I can tell you we went to one Fall camp that was fantastic. Vanderbilt. It was 30 degrees and Corbin addressed that saying games can rain out, but they can’t cold out. He was on the field the entire camp and it was run on schedule to the minute. My son was scheduled to throw during a 5 minute time frame and that is when he threw.  

I agree that you can’t name names (negatively) while your son is still playing, sometimes I wish you could.

If 947 wants or doesn't want to name the program, that's their business. Send them a pm.

I mean if you go to a camp within cold weather states don't you prepare (as the player did). When you go to a tournie in the summer, don't you prepare for the weather?  Isn't this all about common sense?

Isn't naming programs that over recruit different than a negative camp report because of the weather? Come on people. I don't know about anyone else but if you want to know who recruits more than they should, go to twitter, D1 baseball or Google. It's all there. No secrets

For the past few days folks have been losing their lives, homes,  businesses due to devastating storms  and some of you need to know which program this was?  Not one person here has asked if everyone is ok? But you need to know which camp program that was described?! I don't get it!

I think there are a few here that need to get their priorities in order.

A suggestion, if SpeedDemon wants some clarification, she can take it up with the owner of the site.

JMO

Last edited by TPM
@SpeedDemon posted:

?

Did the coaches tell the parents and players not to tell anyone they held an outdoor camp in 20- and 30-degree weather?  If not, then why would naming this school be a problem?

"We went to a daylong baseball camp at Higher Ed U that was held outdoors in freezing weather. Some of the athletes only had T-shirts on but the coaches wore parkas" is not controversial; it is a statement of fact.

My comment was not asking to "name and shame".  It does not violate community standards.

What a twisted, harsh interpretation. So much hubris. Such a negative, unempathetic worldview.

Maybe the coach used the camp, in part, to see who would show up prepared and who wouldn't.

@cabbagedad posted:

Hey Speed,

I understand your POV on the topic.  There have been times when I felt it would be appropriate to name names here as to warn others when necessary.  There are pro's and con's.  I think, ultimately, the site has it right by taking the high road on this.  The admins have done an great job of maintaining the generally civil, insightful, helpful nature of the site and this is part of those efforts.  To PF's point, a lot of us are guilty of stretching the bounds at times but still...

You say your comment was not asking to "name and shame" but in effect, it would.   You started an interesting thread back in March about parents saying abusive things to your kid.  Unfortunately, there are more of those parents in this world than should be and they tend to be the ones that would abuse an open policy here and turn this site into a b*tch session and make it very uncivil (call that a negative worldview on my part if you wish).   

Regarding your point about everything being video'd these days... you're right but that doesn't mean there aren't still proper etiquette guidelines - times and places where it is not appropriate to share or make public.  I'm not saying that particular event should be exempt, just saying this is probably not the forum for it, depending on how it is presented.   

As others have mentioned, PM can be used if someone has concerns that the school/coach/program/etc in question is one they might be dealing with.

Side note - I see you are from the Central Coast.  I don't remember whether I ever asked you but we lived there for many years until recently.  I'd be curious as to where.  You can PM me if preferred

Great response. Thanks.

We can agree to disagree. I don't have any problems with stating facts. Naming names due to opinions or behavior or because we feel wronged is not OK.

********************

Separately but interestingly, last night while I was writing my response a relative stopped by. We got to talking and I explained this discussion to him. His immediate response: "that is abusive and dangerous".

Now, his opinion is relevant because he's an ER physician, at a Level 1 ER, at a large university. I was taken aback at how outraged he became because he's a super mild-mannered guy.

I hadn't really thought about the medical aspects of exposing young people to sub-freezing weather for 6-7 hours. But he did and he was angry.

@SpeedDemon posted:

Great response. Thanks.

We can agree to disagree. I don't have any problems with stating facts. Naming names due to opinions or behavior or because we feel wronged is not OK.

********************

Separately but interestingly, last night while I was writing my response a relative stopped by. We got to talking and I explained this discussion to him. His immediate response: "that is abusive and dangerous".

Now, his opinion is relevant because he's an ER physician, at a Level 1 ER, at a large university. I was taken aback at how outraged he became because he's a super mild-mannered guy.

I hadn't really thought about the medical aspects of exposing young people to sub-freezing weather for 6-7 hours. But he did and he was angry.

OK but...   Baseball is an outside sport.  If you are going to a baseball camp and the weather forecast is 20's and 30's, it is absolutely your common sense responsibility (as you/your son did) to first check if cancelled, then come prepared with proper attire and maybe confirm that the event is to be moved indoors.  Even if indoors, if the weather is that bad outside it's very likely to still be quite cold in an athletic indoor facility.  Who the heck comes with just a tee shirt??   I know, that may be giving teens too much credit   

Seriously, though, you can read plenty of stories on this site of college games being played in snow and/or freezing temps.  Your ER doc can call that abusive all he wants but if you play in the NE, MINK states, Midwest or even Mid Atlantic (TONS of college programs in these areas), it's gonna happen.  College season is roughly Feb thru May.  Heck, one of my son's coaching gigs was in Tennessee and they had multiple snow games there.  Also, those players are outside at the ballpark for 4-5 hours, much longer for doubleheaders (quite common).  It is up to them to show up prepared to stay warm enough and loose enough to play when their time is called.

BTW, still curious where on the Central Coast you are if you don't mind sharing.

Last edited by cabbagedad
@SpeedDemon posted:


I hadn't really thought about the medical aspects of exposing young people to sub-freezing weather for 6-7 hours. But he did and he was angry.

Teens snowboard and ski, they'll be fine. If nobody looked up the weather beforehand to dress appropriately they aren't bright enough to play at this program anyway.

Cold weather schools cannot afford to travel to NC, FL and Tx every week until May. If there is a scheduled game in March and it is 32 degrees out, they are playing. Can't cancel games and end up with a 31 game season.

@SpeedDemon posted:

Freezing, incapacitated, injured teenagers - it's their fault.

But don't name the school because it might make someone might look bad.

....



This HSBBW discussion has been enlightening but at the same time, quiet sad.

Sometimes I think we get a little carried away and literal with our interpretations of a message.  If I were to take the same liberties, I would make the full-on assumption that you would have your son tell his college coach that he would not be playing in or attending any games when temps drop below 35 degrees.  And, then, you would report the coach and program to the local media for playing those games under abusive conditions.

I know, that's silly huh.

The poster spelled out that the camp was in a cold weather state and it was cold.  Others (including myself) pointed out that playing in those same temps for that same period of time is not uncommon in college baseball so prepare accordingly.  Pretty simple.  Shouting serious reportable abuse is IMO a huge stretch.

Also, the baseball world is a small one.  If you can't grasp that it might be a bad idea to trash a program for such an occurrence in a prominent public forum in that community while your son is in the midst of his recruiting process, I don't know what else to say except, as you said, agree to disagree.

Last edited by cabbagedad
@SpeedDemon posted:

Freezing, incapacitated, injured teenagers - it's their fault.

But don't name the school because it might make someone might look bad.

....



This HSBBW discussion has been enlightening but at the same time, quiet sad.

Camps should never be conducted outdoors in bad weather conditions IMO. There should always be an indoor option as a back up plan. The one and only PG showcase that any of my kids ever attended was the South National Showcase in Houston, TX in 2016. It was cold and raining sideways. And the showcase went on outside as planned. Kids ran 60 times into a headwind and driving rain. OF throws went into the same gale force wind. BP was hit into the same storm - which lasted all day. Field conditions were not safe and no player could perform. I sat with the “scouts” and listened as the made up comments and reports on the fly w/o having a grasp of what they were watching. They were just kids that had been rented to fill out forms. Every player and parent was furious. It was ridiculous and in that moment I knew what PG was all about. Cold, but dry, is a different situation however. Most of those will go as scheduled because, as many have pointed out, many teams play in cold weather in February and March. So it’s not crazy for cold weather schools to schedule a winter camp and have it outdoors if possible. They will be playing in those same conditions in 60-90 days. As far as naming schools goes, a PM is always the best way. Especially if you are active in the recruiting process. Coaches comb social media and comments by parents can have an impact on a kid’s recruiting. But usually only in one way - negatively. A parent’s comments can hurt a lot but rarely help even a little. I think that’s the best argument for not publicly naming schools. Although I see nothing wrong with it in this case. We are only talking about a camp. And that is a lesser subject than recruiting policies in general. So to say that naming schools that over recruit is okay (and oh btw furnish proof or your claim is unsubstantiated), and on the other hand say that a school that puts on a bad camp should not be named is …. certainly not consistent. So it’s pretty understandable that you feel enlightened.

I agree with that aspect of it when it comes to your son's recruiting but if a school does something wrong, I hate it that we don't out them.  In my world it is like pastors who tear churches apart and no one will tell other churches.  Or employers who won't give a bad reference to a horrible employee.  To me we are lying, in a weird kind of way, when we do not out schools for doing bad things whether it is over recruiting, bad camps, lying during recruiting, or other things.

Nope, PF, I don't agree.  Giving a reference to an employer, or telling another church about a bad pastor (presumably on a reference) is not public on the internet.  In fact, aren't most references required to be kept private?  Here, if you want to know, you can ask in a PM, which is private (as far as search engines go).

The same factors don't prevent us from outing schools on this site - of course anyone can do it.  But all the arguments above - cabbagedad's, adbono's, JCG's, etc. - are why it's better for the individual and for the value of HSBBW not to.

Now if a pastor or employee does something criminal and it's in the news, that's different, then they are fair game for public discussion.  Likewise, if the kids at this camp had gone to the hospital and there was a news report about it, we could definitely discuss it by name - and that often happens here.

It was still a great thing to report - anonymously - in a discussion about the value of college camps in recruiting, because it really shows how useless they can be for actually evaluating players.

Totally bugs the mess out of me too @CTbballDad. Winter showcases, tournaments and camps that are not part of the kid's progression back to season...and the pressure people feel to do all of these things. Some of them for really young kids!! In Dec through HS my son was playing basketball. Now, he is putting in the behind the scenes work. Lifting, conditioning...started swinging a little while ago but he goes early when no one else is there; he's working on what he needs to work on and not for others to see (or measure) what he is doing.

As for sharing names, I agree that its not a huge value add. The warning is enough without all the details--we all know what red flag to look out for now.  It has been our experience that no matter how much information you share, names, specific experiences, examples other than just yours...folks sometimes still have to figure it out on their own. Sometimes it's because their circumstances are truly different (for example money was an issue for most our kids' youth careers so we had to make trade offs other parents might not need to make). Sometimes it's because the hype is too enticing. Sometimes it is because the landscape really has changed. And sometimes....well... some folks think that their kid is different and that what happened to your kid could never happen to theirs. And that's their prerogative.

I am not sure what the community standards are here anymore but the "no talk" rule here at hsbbweb was usually applied to members mentioning negative things about amateur ball players in public.  Pro players are public figures so commentary on them is fair game.  Parents deciding to mention their kids in public is of course ok.  I don't really see the problem with mentioning this particular camp.  Speed Demon has been a member here and has over 1000 posts so we can gauge his veracity.  If a first time poster started bashing a school, I would be tempted to moderate that post because in that instance, it could be a rival school (or someone with an ax to grind) trying to denigrate the institution.  That doesn't seem to be the case here.  That said, and since the thread has gone in this direction, for members wanting to know the name, it seems a short PM to Speed Demon would be appropriate.  3/4 of the country is already ruled out by the information that was already posted. 

I didn't say post the pastor's name publicly  I do not understand ya'll's pm thing.  If I am parent of 2025 and I'm reading on here.  I have no clue if the school being talked about is one that I'm considering or not.  I'm not PMing every person who talks about a camp but I would deeply appreciate wanting to know if the school my son is considering treats prospects that way.

  But if the person is willing to post the name of the school they should be allowed to.  I agree with ClevelandDad and I have been on here for years.  I thought the only rule was don't call out players by name.  I've never heard of don't call out schools, coaches, or such until this thread.  It may not be good for the person if they have given info as to who they are or information that would allow someone to figure out who their kid is but if they want to name a school, they should be allowed to.

I also wonder if the school even had an indoor facility to do it in.  If not, then I fully understand not having an option but who offers a December camp in Appalachia without having an indoor option available?

Add Reply

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×