Sorry if this was posted elsewhere. Interesting article.
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great article
I wish I would have read that about 10 years ago.
Goin_yard posted:I wish I would have read that about 10 years ago.
Me too...
The comment about "hiding" in the stands struck me. I've tried hard not to have my child worry about whether he ever disappointed me during a game with his play (although he did sort of question an ump once and we did have a talk about that).
If your kid looks for you in the stands after striking out, that may be a sign that he is under a little too much pressure. Don't have any great solutions, but did want to highlight that one comment.
My goal at the end of both of my kids games (D1 pitcher and 13U player) is for no one to know that I'm their dad. They will know that I'm affiliated to the team by my cheering, but not addressing kids individually. It's worked for us so far, and the 2nd boy is well on his way, so I think that we'll continue down this path.
I was just discussing this. This past weekend my sons team played in a game that it was a 99.9% certainty that they would win....but they lost. Some parents didn't say anything but there were a couple that did LOUDLY...then their kid said something on the field LOUDLY....this was during the first inning....do people not understand that they can create a loss with their bad attitude?
Great article. Look, we were all our son's first coach -- I don't mean literally, but when they were 4, 5, and 6 years old, introducing them to the game. It can be hard to let that go. I have a fourth grader (in addition to one in high school), and it's hard to just shut up with the little guy. But it's wise to do so.
When my son started playing 9u travel I encountered some insane parents. I started reading books about the psychology of coaching kids and dealing with my own. A very good book was 101 Ways To Be A Good Sports Parent by Dr Joel Fish. He's the head of the Center For Sports Psychology. They work with professional athletes, professional teams and various Team USA's.
Despite his background he didn't realize he was becoming one of "those" parents. Now the Center's largest individual client base is travel players whose parents are driving them over the edge.
The best advice in the book is when your kid gets in the car don't start analyzing. Let him/her talk first. Maybe the game is the last thing they want to discuss.
Dad it doesn't help when:
You talk bad about my coach or coache's decisions.
Are critical of other players on my team or the opposing team. "unless they are displaying a negative attitude."
Create excuses for my play.
Criticize the umpire.
Conduct a negative autopsy of my performance on the drive home.
Allow your mood & reaction to me to be dependent upon my performance on the field.
Are verbally critical when I make a mistake during a game.
Issue negative feedback telling me "what not to do."
Dad it helps when you:
Offer positive encouragement.
Look for & discuss at least 3 positives game actions before even approaching a subject for "improvement."
Compliment my effort.
Focus on team results first.
Remain silent during my games.
Refrain from criticizing the coach, umpires & other players on my team.
Are the same person in your approach to me regardless of the results of my performance in a game.
My kid doesn't listen to me at home. No way is he going to listen to me during a game. Told me long ago, he doesn't hear a thing I say.
One time when he was pitching, the bastage had the gonads to tell the coaches to get me out from behind the backstop. Right in the middle of the game. I wasn't even doing anything. Just standing there. So now, whenever he pitches I go to the first base side so he can't see me at all. But you would know I'm his dad because I'm pacing around mumbling to myself. 
Admittedly took me a while to fully learn this lesson (around 13u; ok, maybe 14u). I was the jackwagon giving rapid fire advice having never played pee-wee ball well.
Was surprised to hear as much pitch-by-pitch daddy commentary in (D III) college ball this year. "Johnny:
[2-0 count] you are way ahead."
[0-2 count] time to battle."
square it up."
you can do it."
do your job."
trust your hands."
Probably much ado about nothing; as said above, these sons aren't listening.
I had a very very big failure recently. Very tight game and my son missed a block (Hes a catcher). Run scored. He threw down to third and over threw, run scored.... I barked quite loudly from the stands that those runs were on him. I really really upset him (which I didnt realize how much till after).
I sat down and was thinking how I was roasting in that damn heat and what the hell he was doing.....
It took a moment and I pretty much called my self asshole. That was what I was. He 19 innings out of the 27 we played that weekend. The block he missed was a fastball on the outside part of the other batters box. Would have been amazing to stop it as is and he did get a good piece of it (went left off his pad instead of the back stop). And then he DID make an error on the throw. SO WHAT.
I felt like a total shit. Not even sure why I reacted like that. I was actually feeling the pressure. I had parents coming up and they were like.....T needs to be in there...T needs to be in there....He stops everything.... I was actually worried what the parents would think....
I walked down to the dugout and he was one of the last ones.... I immediately apologized to him...Called his coach the next day and apologized too. We talked about it on the way home. Thought it was over and done with...
Just this Tuesday during the JV came a ball snuck away from him on a strike three.... He rushed the throw instead of taking an extra step out and threw it over the first basemans head. Sorta kept the inning alive. SHorty there after it was a bases loaded dribbler...First to home and he stepped out to launch it to first...Guy was about half way....He shook his head and held it....Never threw it...
I asked him when he came in and he said he was worried about throwing it away again with a guy on third..... Was his thinking partly due to my rant two weeks before? Cant rule it out.
Folks......Take it from the asses (me) who made the mistakes...... DON'T bark at your kids ( I have one exception.....Disrespecting umps, players, coaches game ETC gets a serious chewing out). Support them... Be supportive..... If you cant help but ride umps, sit in left field. If your kid isn't perfect ( he never will be) and you start to hear little comments from the self righteous parents do you best to ignore them. With TB you are going to have that. If you find a team where ALL the parents are supportive and kids are supportive..>STAY.... Even if they may not be winning all the time....As long as the kid is improving and the coach is able to teach him the next level skills, screw the win loss record. I have to apologize to the parents yet at our next tournament.... There was a step dad there who everyone thought was a total richard. I can only imagine their surprise when I went off....
Dont be the reason your kid gives up a sport. Your more likely the reason why he likes the sport to begin with! Dont do what I did!
Kevin A posted:I had a very very big failure recently. Very tight game and my son missed a block (Hes a catcher). Run scored. He threw down to third and over threw, run scored.... I barked quite loudly from the stands that those runs were on him. I really really upset him (which I didnt realize how much till after).
I sat down and was thinking how I was roasting in that damn heat and what the hell he was doing.....
It took a moment and I pretty much called my self asshole. That was what I was. He 19 innings out of the 27 we played that weekend. The block he missed was a fastball on the outside part of the other batters box. Would have been amazing to stop it as is and he did get a good piece of it (went left off his pad instead of the back stop). And then he DID make an error on the throw. SO WHAT.
I felt like a total shit. Not even sure why I reacted like that. I was actually feeling the pressure. I had parents coming up and they were like.....T needs to be in there...T needs to be in there....He stops everything.... I was actually worried what the parents would think....
I walked down to the dugout and he was one of the last ones.... I immediately apologized to him...Called his coach the next day and apologized too. We talked about it on the way home. Thought it was over and done with...
Just this Tuesday during the JV came a ball snuck away from him on a strike three.... He rushed the throw instead of taking an extra step out and threw it over the first basemans head. Sorta kept the inning alive. SHorty there after it was a bases loaded dribbler...First to home and he stepped out to launch it to first...Guy was about half way....He shook his head and held it....Never threw it...
I asked him when he came in and he said he was worried about throwing it away again with a guy on third..... Was his thinking partly due to my rant two weeks before? Cant rule it out.
Folks......Take it from the asses (me) who made the mistakes...... DON'T bark at your kids ( I have one exception.....Disrespecting umps, players, coaches game ETC gets a serious chewing out). Support them... Be supportive..... If you cant help but ride umps, sit in left field. If your kid isn't perfect ( he never will be) and you start to hear little comments from the self righteous parents do you best to ignore them. With TB you are going to have that. If you find a team where ALL the parents are supportive and kids are supportive..>STAY.... Even if they may not be winning all the time....As long as the kid is improving and the coach is able to teach him the next level skills, screw the win loss record. I have to apologize to the parents yet at our next tournament.... There was a step dad there who everyone thought was a total richard. I can only imagine their surprise when I went off....
Dont be the reason your kid gives up a sport. Your more likely the reason why he likes the sport to begin with! Dont do what I did!
Kevin, Nice work man. Don't beat yourself up too much, just learn from it which is obviously what you are doing! I think it's important to admit that most all of us parents watching our kids perform feel the same way. "When mine strikes out, a little piece of me dies inside" I always tell my buddy standing next to me We all are conscious of what other parents think when our kid screws up & when you sneak a glance at the parents of the kid who just made a mistake, remember that the other parents are looking at you the same way.
It is an ego thing down deep. Your child fails, this reflects poorly on YOU, in your mind, & you want to lash out. It's a false flag & a lie. Don't buy into it. Think about it this way. Think about a kid on the team you know is an exceptional player (not yours). Now think about an awful game he had. I mean his worst. Struck out 4 times, booted balls, got rocked on mound or walked everyone. Now think about your reaction to that performance. It was probably something like' "yeah he had a tough game, don't really remember the details but he is a great player & will be fine next time." This is how the world, other than you, sees this performance when it is your kid. You are over there about ready to have cardiac arrest & want to climb the fence. Walk way out to CF or do whatever you have to do to keep it cool. It's his turn to play & a privilege & a joy to get to watch. Also remember that he is probably much better than you ever were anyway so just shut up!
Kevin A posted:I had a very very big failure recently. Very tight game and my son missed a block (Hes a catcher). Run scored. He threw down to third and over threw, run scored.... I barked quite loudly from the stands that those runs were on him. I really really upset him (which I didnt realize how much till after).
I sat down and was thinking how I was roasting in that damn heat and what the hell he was doing.....
It took a moment and I pretty much called my self asshole. That was what I was. He 19 innings out of the 27 we played that weekend. The block he missed was a fastball on the outside part of the other batters box. Would have been amazing to stop it as is and he did get a good piece of it (went left off his pad instead of the back stop). And then he DID make an error on the throw. SO WHAT.
I felt like a total shit. Not even sure why I reacted like that. I was actually feeling the pressure. I had parents coming up and they were like.....T needs to be in there...T needs to be in there....He stops everything.... I was actually worried what the parents would think....
I walked down to the dugout and he was one of the last ones.... I immediately apologized to him...Called his coach the next day and apologized too. We talked about it on the way home. Thought it was over and done with...
Just this Tuesday during the JV came a ball snuck away from him on a strike three.... He rushed the throw instead of taking an extra step out and threw it over the first basemans head. Sorta kept the inning alive. SHorty there after it was a bases loaded dribbler...First to home and he stepped out to launch it to first...Guy was about half way....He shook his head and held it....Never threw it...
I asked him when he came in and he said he was worried about throwing it away again with a guy on third..... Was his thinking partly due to my rant two weeks before? Cant rule it out.
Folks......Take it from the asses (me) who made the mistakes...... DON'T bark at your kids ( I have one exception.....Disrespecting umps, players, coaches game ETC gets a serious chewing out). Support them... Be supportive..... If you cant help but ride umps, sit in left field. If your kid isn't perfect ( he never will be) and you start to hear little comments from the self righteous parents do you best to ignore them. With TB you are going to have that. If you find a team where ALL the parents are supportive and kids are supportive..>STAY.... Even if they may not be winning all the time....As long as the kid is improving and the coach is able to teach him the next level skills, screw the win loss record. I have to apologize to the parents yet at our next tournament.... There was a step dad there who everyone thought was a total richard. I can only imagine their surprise when I went off....
Dont be the reason your kid gives up a sport. Your more likely the reason why he likes the sport to begin with! Dont do what I did!
What about when the other parents do it to your kid? Kid's team last year had parents who had little clue about baseball and less clue about catching. And where not afraid to make the loud comments about the kid's performance.
Heck we had one mother, from a snooty rich suburb, actually throw a water bottle at the fence and scream "are you kidding me" when her little johnny struck out.
Steve A. posted:Kevin, Nice work man. Don't beat yourself up too much, just learn from it which is obviously what you are doing! I think it's important to admit that most all of us parents watching our kids perform feel the same way. "When mine strikes out, a little piece of me dies inside" I always tell my buddy standing next to me
It is an ego thing down deep. Your child fails, this reflects poorly on YOU, in your mind, & you want to lash out. It's a false flag & a lie. Don't buy into it. Think about it this way. Think about a kid on the team you know is an exceptional player (not yours). Now think about an awful game he had. I mean his worst. Struck out 4 times, booted balls, got rocked on mound or walked everyone. Now think about your reaction to that performance. It was probably something like' "yeah he had a tough game, don't really remember the details but he is a great player & will be fine next time." This is how the world, other than you, sees this performance when it is your kid. You are over there about ready to have cardiac arrest & want to climb the fence. Walk way out to CF or do whatever you have to do to keep it cool. It's his turn to play & a privilege & a joy to get to watch. Also remember that he is probably much better than you ever were anyway so just shut up!
Steve- Thanks...I definitely know better...
And while I will never admit it to him, he is a much better ball player than I was and a HELLUVA lot better hitter than I was. Shhh....Dont tell him.
Golf- I would love to say the water bottle is just ridiculous but I really have no credibility currently to bark at another parent for a failure.. LOL.
One thing I am VERY careful of when the dads start circling up and barking about this or that. Why isnt the coach bunting...what the hell is he doing...etc. I stay well away from that. When they start commenting about struggles of other kids....I won't partake. I'll say...Yea he had a rough game but he will bounce back in game two or something like that. And I will NEVER single another kid out EVER unless its a positive. We only had 20 hits last tournament in 4 games. Dads were bitching about the hitting and I said ..." WE have to stop popping up. WE are struggling at the plate and it's killing us. My KID included...."
In reality he popped up once that weekend, had two doubles and went 5-9 with a walk and HBP. The other catcher was 4-10. They had almost half the hits between them. BUT THE TEAM needed to swing the bat better and he is a member of that TEAM. When he has a rough weekend, someone will help pick HIM up.... Law of averages and all... But I will never ever single a kid out unless its to compliment them. Cant believe there are people out there who actually think its ok to "undress" a kid that isnt their own. I have seen it too...
There are now 3 things certain in life. Death, taxes & the poor kid with the water bottle Mom will shove baseball down the drain as fast as possible once he overcomes the fear of the consequences. It's sad and unfortunately very common.
I read the story. The parents say nothing.
Really? Nothing?
Chatter is part of the game. It would seem weird to me if the stands were full of ppl sitting silently like they were at the opera.
I'll add one more question to ponder. What would you say are the top 3 reasons that kids play baseball?
#1: It's fun.
#2: Be with my buddies.
#3: Make my Dad / Mom proud / happy. "Hey Dad, watch this"
Is it fun when my Dad crushes me from the stands when I make a mistake? Is it fun when I hear my parents crushing the coach on the way home? Is it fun when I get clobbered on the car ride home about my play?
The kid begins to think, subconsciously: "When I play baseball, I fail a lot (this is a game of failure). When I fail at baseball, my parents become upset & criticize me me in front of crowds of people & on car rides." If I eliminate baseball, I end the criticism & can still be with my friends. My parents will be "Happier," & the pain will stop.
CmassRHPDad posted:I read the story. The parents say nothing.
Really? Nothing?Chatter is part of the game. It would seem weird to me if the stands were full of ppl sitting silently like they were at the opera.
I think you are taking it out of context. They will say nothing directly to their own child during a performance. Verbal team support, cheer & good will for others is fine & appreciated. If Johnny hits a Dinger Mom still jumps up & claps.
Steve A. posted:CmassRHPDad posted:I read the story. The parents say nothing.
Really? Nothing?Chatter is part of the game. It would seem weird to me if the stands were full of ppl sitting silently like they were at the opera.
I think you are taking it out of context. They will say nothing directly to their own child during a performance. Verbal team support, cheer & good will for others is fine & appreciated. If Johnny hits a Dinger Mom still jumps up & claps.
OMG it's all I can do to sit silently and watch my kid pitch without having to run behind the bleacher and puke my guts out. Never mind holler at him. I am a nervous wreck when he gets the start.
You are right though. Especially in HS (this is HSBBWeb). They are beyond what mom and dad can do for them.
Steve A. posted:CmassRHPDad posted:I read the story. The parents say nothing.
Really? Nothing?Chatter is part of the game. It would seem weird to me if the stands were full of ppl sitting silently like they were at the opera.
I think you are taking it out of context. They will say nothing directly to their own child during a performance. Verbal team support, cheer & good will for others is fine & appreciated. If Johnny hits a Dinger Mom still jumps up & claps.
Steve - I do have to point out that basically all of your examples can fall under the category of general "chatter". Some unacceptable "chatter" might include...
- That was at your eyes!
- Get your bat off your shoulder!
- Stop watching strikes!
- Tuck your shirt in!
Any comment that highlights the last at bat's failure is definitely unacceptable (Don't strike out again!) as is belittling the opposition (You can hit this little kid!).
As for all your other input, I appreciate you laying it out so nicely. I think there may be some parents reading this as we speak thinking to themselves about how baseball is shaping their relationship with their son.
2017LHPscrewball posted:Steve A. posted:CmassRHPDad posted:I read the story. The parents say nothing.
Really? Nothing?Chatter is part of the game. It would seem weird to me if the stands were full of ppl sitting silently like they were at the opera.
I think you are taking it out of context. They will say nothing directly to their own child during a performance. Verbal team support, cheer & good will for others is fine & appreciated. If Johnny hits a Dinger Mom still jumps up & claps.
Steve - I do have to point out that basically all of your examples can fall under the category of general "chatter". Some unacceptable "chatter" might include...
- That was at your eyes!
- Get your bat off your shoulder!
- Stop watching strikes!
- Tuck your shirt in!
Any comment that highlights the last at bat's failure is definitely unacceptable (Don't strike out again!) as is belittling the opposition (You can hit this little kid!).
As for all your other input, I appreciate you laying it out so nicely. I think there may be some parents reading this as we speak thinking to themselves about how baseball is shaping their relationship with their son.
That is what I was implying too. I should have been clearer.
Guilty on all accounts! My 2019 told me I could go coach his younger brother's team one summer when he was 12. He was tired of me always "helping" him learn from his mistakes during games...I cried all the way home! Thankfully he let's me be his hitting coach now. So I video his at bats when he's struggling and we go over the video and talk about things after the game together.
He's got a playoff game tonight so I'll try to remember to not bark at the umpires too much 
Steve A. posted:I'll add one more question to ponder. What would you say are the top 3 reasons that kids play baseball?
#1: It's fun.
#2: Be with my buddies.
#3: Make my Dad / Mom proud / happy. "Hey Dad, watch this"
Is it fun when my Dad crushes me from the stands when I make a mistake? Is it fun when I hear my parents crushing the coach on the way home? Is it fun when I get clobbered on the car ride home about my play?
The kid begins to think, subconsciously: "When I play baseball, I fail a lot (this is a game of failure). When I fail at baseball, my parents become upset & criticize me me in front of crowds of people & on car rides." If I eliminate baseball, I end the criticism & can still be with my friends. My parents will be "Happier," & the pain will stop.
This.
I am about 90% where I want to be. This article pointed out a couple of things I chuckled about. My most recent personal win is that I now only talk shop when we actually practice. Not before or after the game.
Coincidentally, my son actually used those exact words to me 3 weeks ago when I came up with a code phrase that I thought would help him "center". Lol. The next week, I practiced zen silence in the stands.
Here's a wrestling story that may shed some light on whether coaching tips from the stands are helpful.
High school wrestling mats have a circle with a 28-foot diameter. During matches, each wrestler is supported by a coach sitting on a folding chair in a corner of the mat just outside the circle.
The coaches yell exhortations and suggestions to their wrestlers, who are never more than 30 feet away from them and are often only 3 or 5 feet away from them.
After one match, I asked my son about a suggested move his coach had yelled out for him to perform.
"Oh, I never listen to what the coaches say during matches."
"Never?"
"Never. I have never heard a coach yell out a move and then done it. By the time he sees it and says it and I do it, it's already too late. Besides, wrestling is all a matter of reflex and feel. I can't listen to somebody and feel what to do at the same time. So I don't listen."
Thats the hardest part. Barking at umps is a favorite past time of mine....
Bring out the saddle....Time to ride the umps like a thoroughbred!
Kevin A posted:Thats the hardest part. Barking at umps is a favorite past time of mine....
Bring out the saddle....Time to ride the umps like a thoroughbred!
I'm assuming your kid is not a pitcher. No fun when you kid starts losing out on the corner pitches.
justbaseball posted:Sorry if this was posted elsewhere. Interesting article.
>I went away and talked to a couple of players from our club who had played for Australia and in the MLB minor leagues. They said their fathers always watched them quietly and never said a thing. Let me say that again: never said a thing.<
Then my son should be a HOF'er.
My dad in most ways was a "salt of the earth" person. But I excelled at sports and he got caught up in it. I remember the last days of rec I was so relieved to be done with baseball. Could have played HS easy. Who knows, being a big hard throwing lefty maybe more, but I was just done.
So now I sit there and keep my mouth shut. We talk, even have our arguments about his play, but never in the heat of the moment.
b i g m a c posted:Admittedly took me a while to fully learn this lesson (around 13u; ok, maybe 14u). I was the jackwagon giving rapid fire advice having never played pee-wee ball well.
Was surprised to hear as much pitch-by-pitch daddy commentary in (D III) college ball this year. "Johnny:
[2-0 count] you are way ahead."
[0-2 count] time to battle."
square it up."
you can do it."
do your job."
trust your hands."
Probably much ado about nothing; as said above, these sons aren't listening.
I'll admit that I say that kinda stuff. But I say it while I'm 40 rows back watching the pros play too. Nobody's listening to me in either situation.
Excellent article.
I do remember asking my son if he heard us in the stands (he was in HS at the time) and his comment was, "Yeah, but I'm not listening." He more or less was focused on the game and could care less what was coming from outside the fence.
I'll admit it took me a while to stop "coaching" from the stands, but eventually I learned to shout encouragement to the team, applaud good plays (even by the opposing team) and just enjoy the game.
SomeBaseballDad posted:>I went away and talked to a couple of players from our club who had played for Australia and in the MLB minor leagues. They said their fathers always watched them quietly and never said a thing. Let me say that again: never said a thing.<
Then my son should be a HOF'er.
My dad in most ways was a "salt of the earth" person. But I excelled at sports and he got caught up in it. I remember the last days of rec I was so relieved to be done with baseball. Could have played HS easy. Who knows, being a big hard throwing lefty maybe more, but I was just done.
So now I sit there and keep my mouth shut. We talk, even have our arguments about his play, but never in the heat of the moment.
Perfect illustration of perception here. Awesome Dad with great intentions. Kid loves Dad. Dad loves kid. Dad is vocal & over the top offering, in his mind, "suggestions & helpful comments." The problem is that this is not what the kid hears. What the kid hears is, "don't disappoint me again."
Steve A. posted:
SomeBaseballDad posted:>I went away and talked to a couple of players from our club who had played for Australia and in the MLB minor leagues. They said their fathers always watched them quietly and never said a thing. Let me say that again: never said a thing.<
Then my son should be a HOF'er.
My dad in most ways was a "salt of the earth" person. But I excelled at sports and he got caught up in it. I remember the last days of rec I was so relieved to be done with baseball. Could have played HS easy. Who knows, being a big hard throwing lefty maybe more, but I was just done.
So now I sit there and keep my mouth shut. We talk, even have our arguments about his play, but never in the heat of the moment.
Perfect illustration of perception here. Awesome Dad with great intentions. Kid loves Dad. Dad loves kid. Dad is vocal & over the top offering, in his mind, "suggestions & helpful comments." The problem is that this is not what the kid hears. What the kid hears is, "don't disappoint me again."
VERY VERY true! Like the kid doesn't have enough pressure staring at a 85mph fastball and trying to do something with it.
My kid is in 9th grade, so everything I have heard is 14u and under and I have heard:
-"UNACCEPTABLE *kids name*"....as a kid struck out.
-"DAMN IT *kids name*"...as a kid grounded out.
-"SON, SERIOUSLY!"....as a kid hit a pop fly to center...that kid ran through first and dropped an F bomb on his way through.
Not sure when these parents lost sight of it being a GAME because 14u and under it IS a GAME!
CaCO3Girl posted:Steve A. posted:
SomeBaseballDad posted:>I went away and talked to a couple of players from our club who had played for Australia and in the MLB minor leagues. They said their fathers always watched them quietly and never said a thing. Let me say that again: never said a thing.<
Then my son should be a HOF'er.
My dad in most ways was a "salt of the earth" person. But I excelled at sports and he got caught up in it. I remember the last days of rec I was so relieved to be done with baseball. Could have played HS easy. Who knows, being a big hard throwing lefty maybe more, but I was just done.
So now I sit there and keep my mouth shut. We talk, even have our arguments about his play, but never in the heat of the moment.
Perfect illustration of perception here. Awesome Dad with great intentions. Kid loves Dad. Dad loves kid. Dad is vocal & over the top offering, in his mind, "suggestions & helpful comments." The problem is that this is not what the kid hears. What the kid hears is, "don't disappoint me again."
VERY VERY true! Like the kid doesn't have enough pressure staring at a 85mph fastball and trying to do something with it.
My kid is in 9th grade, so everything I have heard is 14u and under and I have heard:
-"UNACCEPTABLE *kids name*"....as a kid struck out.
-"DAMN IT *kids name*"...as a kid grounded out.
-"SON, SERIOUSLY!"....as a kid hit a pop fly to center...that kid ran through first and dropped an F bomb on his way through.
Not sure when these parents lost sight of it being a GAME because 14u and under it IS a GAME!
Caco, Absolutely on target! My first list of "helpful suggestions" seem mild & well intentioned. Seemingly innocent comments such as, "hey, lets go, base hit!" "throw a strike!" "don't walk this guy!" "keep your head down!"
What the parent is really saying is, "Don't hurt my feelings in front of all of these people." Don't embarrass me in front of all of these people." They do not realize they are doing it, ever. They think they are rooting for their kid, they are not. They are rooting for THEMSELVES.
Your other examples are absolute poison to success for the player. These comments are simply the parent lashing out after the fact. They are giving pain back for the pain caused. It's human nature, unfortunately, but it does not have to be this way.
This is why I love this site! Such a great reminder. I am a HS football coach and had coached HS baseball until my son started playing baseball (I teach/coach at same school). He politely asked me if I could stop coaching while he was playing. It was just too much for him to have Dad in his ear 24/7. I definitely understood and honored his request. However, I still find it hard sometimes to keep my mouth shut while he is playing so this was a great reminder.
On a side note, I have found a great way to help me keep my mouth closed when he pitches. I now use a pocket radar along with a couple of charts and track all of his pitches for him. He has been working hard on making some in-season changes to improve command/velo. The velo chart, along with type of pitch, and tracking balls/strikes are one of the first things he wants to see later that evening or next day. Keeps me busy and I am actually doing something that he finds beneficial. I still check with him the day before each game to make sure he wants me to continue (I get worried that he can see me). He has stated that the only time he has ever noticed me (once or twice) was when he was warming up. Not sure this would work for others but working great for us right now.
They can barely hear their coaches in the dugout.
As a youth coach I've mostly had great, supportive parents on the team, but there is always that guy who wants to "help' his son when he comes up to bat, and gives advice every second pitch or so. Even if the guy knows what he is talking about, it doesn't help, but then there are the guys who you can tell don't have a clue about baseball.
The last thing any batter needs is distraction up there, but what some of the parents are doing is flat out undermining and destroying their kid's confidence.
Then there is the crazy guy, who paces behind homeplate, and acts like an uncaged Gorilla reacting to some very bad drugs. Those guys...you try to not too make eye contact, and wait for them to get booted by the umpire. God help their kid.
I try to limit myself to, "Let's go, _____" about twice a game, if even that. I also say the same for other guys on the team...if not coaching i'm usually yakking it up with someone. Usually miss about half the plays.
Can we also include coaches in this one? Well let me do it anyway. We want players to focus 100 percent of their attention to playing the game. A kid is at the plate. He is trying to do what I believe is one of the toughest things to do in sports and that's hit. He trying to put 100 percent of his focus on doing just that. And now his coach is coaching him from the 3B box, the 1B box and from the dugout while he's trying to do it. Then there are the constant reminders to the pitcher. Stride, don't over stride, throw strikes, etc etc. The constant reminders to infielders, stay down, come get it, know where your going, etc etc. Then there is the body language you constantly speak about that you don't listen to yourself. A kid makes an error and you hang your head, puff your cheeks, scream out, stare down, etc etc. I could go on and on. But one thing I have always said is if you coach your players properly in practice you won't feel the need to coach them when their performing. Your players should draw confidence from your confidence in them. They should see you as their ace in the hole not the hole in the as_.
Yes we have all been those guys and gals. But we learn. We sure better. And these threads help big time to those who honestly admit it and take it in. Your happy and giddy on the ride home when your son plays well. You always stop and get a nice meal and everything is great. Your always a total AH when he doesn't play well. You want to get straight home. Your demeanor is obvious to your child.
I coach my players like they were all my own son's. I understand the pressure they are under from Mom and Dad. I understand that some put tremendous pressure on themselves already. I understand that sometimes some need simply a pat on the backside. Some need you to look at them and say "Who cares it's one at bat." Coach the heck out of them in practice. Instill confidence and a process. Give them a game plan for success and then help them get there. And when it's game time sit back and watch them do their thing. Let them know you got their back no matter what. As a parent I can tell you I understand. But for you guys going through this right now you better be more concerned with the relationship than anything else going on right now. Good Luck
AS a youth coach with two BB playing sons, I always ask before every season whether or not they want me to coach them. When S1 was 14yo, he said no mas...it probably could've been a year earlier, but the alternatives to me were not appealing. S2 still wants me around, but this year(14), he made a team that already has decent coaches.
I tend to say little to my kids during games but vague, reassuring things. Both say they don't notice me, which is great. I have gotten better with umpires as I age. Some of them are really not very good... but I am learning to bite my tongue.
Ways you can help your kids in baseball(warning, this takes time);
-Play catch with your sons when they are young.
-Take them to the park and hit them grounders and flies. Defense is REALLY hard. Don't get mad at them if they make mistakes. I don't think people realize how hard it is to field on a bumpy, barely maintained park, and how wonderfully maintained the MLB fields are in comparison. I believe it takes thousands of balls to get certain skills down.
-If they are pitchers, let them throw to you. Only teach them if you actually know something about pitching...like REALLY know something. Telling them to throw strikes does NOT count (warning, they will bounce balls off your knees, ankles, face and crotch, eventually).
-Throw BP to them. Do NOT tell them what to do unless you actually know how to teach hitting. Many parents who were good hitters themselves have no idea how to teach hitting.
- Do not talk about the mistakes they made, or do a post mortem on the game as soon as they get in the car. Let them bring it up if they wish.
- Do NOT politic within your association and shoehorn your kid onto a team that is above his abilities. You think you are helping him, but in many cases you are hurting him.
- Do take them to MLB, minor league, or HS games once in a while. Make it fun. S2 is a good ball player, but doesn't like to watch a full game. He will watch short clips on Youtube, and will watch Domingo Ayala for hours.
- When they are very young(6-9) they might like you to cheer loudly for them, but after that they mostly don't want to hear from you. Act accordingly. Mild cheering that blends into the crowd is allowed.
- If you are an athletic Dad 25-45, know and understand that you are much bigger, stronger, and more developed than your child. There is no way that they can do what you can, right now. If you want to show off your skills, go play ball in an adult league.
Sorry if this sounds harsh. I'd like to emphasize that most parents I've run into in BB are very positive and helpful.
Coach May & 57,
Both of your posts are sooooo right! I have mentioned before that I was "that guy" when Ryno was younger, but thankfully, I figured it out. I was still not perfect, but I was much better. My biggest hang-up was the cockiness/overconfidence. I was lucky because Ryan had good coaches along the way, and truthfully, I didn't know how to teach hitting or pitching. When he became a teen, I decided to be the good cop, and let the coaches be the bad cop. This saved our relationship!
He is currently struggling a bit, and it is nice that we have a good relationship, because I am able to support him through positive conversations and texts. My desire was to always help him reach his dream, but I had to learn how to do it correctly.
My advice is to be as positive as possible, because they are most likely taking their struggles really hard. Sometimes when they are struggling, I think they feel they are out there by themselves with no support. DON'T let them feel that way. Pick them up when they are down.
I agree with those who advocate parents keeping unsolicited advice to an absolute minimum, but what do ya do with gramma? We have one gram who starts the second the umpire says “Play ball”, and doesn’t stop, ever. It’s not so bad when she sits a ways away from me, but here lately she’s been sitting close enough to touch and it’s been awful.
What makes it bad is she’s always positive and sincerely trying to help, but it’s not happening. And who wants to tell a 74YO grandmother she can’t root for her grandson and his friends?
Stats4Gnats posted:I agree with those who advocate parents keeping unsolicited advice to an absolute minimum, but what do ya do with gramma? We have one gram who starts the second the umpire says “Play ball”, and doesn’t stop, ever. It’s not so bad when she sits a ways away from me, but here lately she’s been sitting close enough to touch and it’s been awful.
What makes it bad is she’s always positive and sincerely trying to help, but it’s not happening. And who wants to tell a 74YO grandmother she can’t root for her grandson and his friends?
I could do that.
Seriously, I'm glad I don't have kids in baseball. It's nice going to something where I have no idea what's going on and just watching. Now, if my daughter does decide that she wants to be an umpire after all, that may be a different story.
Stats4Gnats posted:I agree with those who advocate parents keeping unsolicited advice to an absolute minimum, but what do ya do with gramma? We have one gram who starts the second the umpire says “Play ball”, and doesn’t stop, ever. It’s not so bad when she sits a ways away from me, but here lately she’s been sitting close enough to touch and it’s been awful.
What makes it bad is she’s always positive and sincerely trying to help, but it’s not happening. And who wants to tell a 74YO grandmother she can’t root for her grandson and his friends?
I tell grandma (or aunt, uncle) etc., where we're going to sit, how we're going to act, and what's acceptable/unacceptable. I tell her the goal is that no one can tell which player is her grandson.
Stats4Gnats posted:I agree with those who advocate parents keeping unsolicited advice to an absolute minimum, but what do ya do with gramma? We have one gram who starts the second the umpire says “Play ball”, and doesn’t stop, ever. It’s not so bad when she sits a ways away from me, but here lately she’s been sitting close enough to touch and it’s been awful.
What makes it bad is she’s always positive and sincerely trying to help, but it’s not happening. And who wants to tell a 74YO grandmother she can’t root for her grandson and his friends?
I am embarrassed to say my mom is like this at my nephews' games, but it's not always positive cheering. She's never been quiet, but she had a stroke 4 years ago which affected her "filter" so she skews negative now. It was REALLY bad that first year as they adjusted her meds. Travel coach had to talk to my sister because Mom would loudly say negative stuff about the kids and parents were complaining. It was mortifying. Sis even had to throw Mom out of a game that year. She's gotten a little better, but we have to constantly remind her to chill out. I refuse to sit near her. My sis is too nice to ban her from the games; I would've already done so.
This is my group therapy. I have been the spectrum of the good and very poor sports dad. My biggest character flaw is not letting them have a bad day and be the dad they wanted rather than the analyst they really did not need. I can hide behind the excuse "well they did ask for an assessment" "How did you do? Well kiddo, you played with less effort than you're capable of, so what if you won the game. You're definitely much better than that and you need to stop holding yourself back". I may one day be looking back at my life and wonder why my kids and I rarely have a father son moments, I will have to blame myself for pushing them too much.
And here I thought it was awkward that when my mom does come (a rare event) she knits the whole time!
As for granny, tell her the hip things to say, then she will just chant those. Rip one meant something different back then though, so she may be hesitant 
2022NYC posted:This is my group therapy. I have been the spectrum of the good and very poor sports dad. My biggest character flaw is not letting them have a bad day and be the dad they wanted rather than the analyst they really did not need. I can hide behind the excuse "well they did ask for an assessment" "How did you do? Well kiddo, you played with less effort than you're capable of, so what if you won the game. You're definitely much better than that and you need to stop holding yourself back". I may one day be looking back at my life and wonder why my kids and I rarely have a father son moments, I will have to blame myself for pushing them too much.
You will be fine! A: You recognize the issue. B: they mostly want to ignore you at 14-15 anyway so no biggie.
CaCO3Girl posted:And here I thought it was awkward that when my mom does come (a rare event) she knits the whole time!
As for granny, tell her the hip things to say, then she will just chant those. Rip one meant something different back then though, so she may be hesitant
LOL! Unfortunately, we've already tried the telling her what is okay to say route. Didn't work. She's going to say whatever she wants to say. Whether that's purely the stroke or because she's a cranky ol' lady, well... let's just say probably a little of both. In all seriousness, she can get so bad that we've had to explain to her we can't allow it anymore because it could affect his recruiting now that he's in HS. She's on a 1 strike policy this year! She'll either keep quiet, get moved WAY down the line past the dugout (which she doesn't want because she likes to socialize with the other grannies), or be banned. 
I think I have gotten a lot better over the years, but we all do slip up. My remaining weakness is refs who (in my "expert" opinion) are letting a game get out hand. I'm talking about soccer and basketball here, rather than baseball--when a lot of pushing and tripping and trash-talking starts and the refs just let it go. The only time I was ever ejected from one of my kids' games was for yelling "Come on ref, someone is going to get hurt out there!" Honest, that was all I said. I apologized to my kids, the team parents and the coach. Not an experience I ever want to repeat (but I confess those same words have come out of my mouth at games a few times since).
I wonder what folks here think about something: Soccer clubs in my neck of the woods increasingly have what they call "Silent Saturdays" (or Sundays), when they ask parents to not say anything from the sideline, not even cheering or positive comments like "great pass!" This seems really unnatural to me--people go to sporting events to cheer. But I asked my kids, both high schoolers, what they thought about this and they said it was great. Both agreed that they would prefer to play without cheering, maybe even without an audience at all. Now some of this may be teenager bravado, but I think they generally meant it. So I wonder if the idea of watching in silence will catch on. There are certainly games when folks in the stands make me think it would be an improvement...
My younger kid is always asking "How did I do?" and I am convinced that he already knows the correct answer. With that said, I don't want to blow smoke and, when appropriate, I point out mistakes and he then explains the why and the where. Some times I do get to simply say "Great!", but I feel as though I have to be honest when he asks. Main problem is probably that he asks when he has done great or not so great - if only he would sulk in silence I would be off the hook.
On a related note, he loves to get better so I find myself making comments about minor improvements. Things like fielding and perhaps getting into a little better position to throw - really little things that could add up eventually. I think he likes these comments, but I sometimes fear that I come across as a little picky. He seems a little more resilient than my older kid (who would sulk quietly) so I guess he doesn't see me as some jerk who only points out the negatives.
2017LHPscrewball posted:My younger kid is always asking "How did I do?" and I am convinced that he already knows the correct answer. With that said, I don't want to blow smoke and, when appropriate, I point out mistakes and he then explains the why and the where. Some times I do get to simply say "Great!", but I feel as though I have to be honest when he asks. Main problem is probably that he asks when he has done great or not so great - if only he would sulk in silence I would be off the hook.
On a related note, he loves to get better so I find myself making comments about minor improvements. Things like fielding and perhaps getting into a little better position to throw - really little things that could add up eventually. I think he likes these comments, but I sometimes fear that I come across as a little picky. He seems a little more resilient than my older kid (who would sulk quietly) so I guess he doesn't see me as some jerk who only points out the negatives.
2017 - I think that is great that your son is asking. A great opportunity to have an open ended discussion might be to say "How do you think you did?" and let him go on about what he liked or didnt like about his game. I think that is a wonderful way to have an open dialog without judgement and still be able to discuss the game and have a real conversation about it.
FriarFred posted:2017LHPscrewball posted:My younger kid is always asking "How did I do?" and I am convinced that he already knows the correct answer. With that said, I don't want to blow smoke and, when appropriate, I point out mistakes and he then explains the why and the where. Some times I do get to simply say "Great!", but I feel as though I have to be honest when he asks. Main problem is probably that he asks when he has done great or not so great - if only he would sulk in silence I would be off the hook.
On a related note, he loves to get better so I find myself making comments about minor improvements. Things like fielding and perhaps getting into a little better position to throw - really little things that could add up eventually. I think he likes these comments, but I sometimes fear that I come across as a little picky. He seems a little more resilient than my older kid (who would sulk quietly) so I guess he doesn't see me as some jerk who only points out the negatives.
2017 - I think that is great that your son is asking. A great opportunity to have an open ended discussion might be to say "How do you think you did?" and let him go on about what he liked or didnt like about his game. I think that is a wonderful way to have an open dialog without judgement and still be able to discuss the game and have a real conversation about it.
"How did I do?"
"Did you have fun?"
Chico Escuela posted:I think I have gotten a lot better over the years, but we all do slip up. My remaining weakness is refs who (in my "expert" opinion) are letting a game get out hand. I'm talking about soccer and basketball here, rather than baseball--when a lot of pushing and tripping and trash-talking starts and the refs just let it go. The only time I was ever ejected from one of my kids' games was for yelling "Come on ref, someone is going to get hurt out there!" Honest, that was all I said. I apologized to my kids, the team parents and the coach. Not an experience I ever want to repeat (but I confess those same words have come out of my mouth at games a few times since).
I wonder what folks here think about something: Soccer clubs in my neck of the woods increasingly have what they call "Silent Saturdays" (or Sundays), when they ask parents to not say anything from the sideline, not even cheering or positive comments like "great pass!" This seems really unnatural to me--people go to sporting events to cheer. But I asked my kids, both high schoolers, what they thought about this and they said it was great. Both agreed that they would prefer to play without cheering, maybe even without an audience at all. Now some of this may be teenager bravado, but I think they generally meant it. So I wonder if the idea of watching in silence will catch on. There are certainly games when folks in the stands make me think it would be an improvement...
I got T’ed up for this comment in a travel basketball game ...
i didn’t get a clear view of the tackle on my point guard. Is it second and six or second and five?
Ok, so my soon to be 13 (two weeks) had practice I found myself offering a suggestion. He gave me a dirty look. Afterwards I asked him if it helps, you all know what he said, not at all. In all honesty, with all the lessons he has had, he probably knows more then me anyway! (I never played)
Welcome to being a teenage parent. Let me leave you with a quote from one our greatest authors...
"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."
Mark Twain
2022NYC posted:Welcome to being a teenage parent. Let me leave you with a quote from one our greatest authors...
"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."
Mark Twain
My dad used to quote that to me all the time. I *hated* hearing it. Now, of course, it is one of my favorites.
I also love this one, from James Baldwin: "Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them."
I got considerably smarter when my son left for college this past fall...I still have moments of being kind of slow but I am doing much better!!
I coached my son's and daughters when they were young but because I know I am very animated and loud (I was trained to be in the Marine Corps). With S1 (now 17) I coached basketball, soccer and assisted the last two years in baseball, this year I am his varsity coach. Unfortunately for him, he inherited the Irish temper, couple that with a teenage attitude...UGH!!! I noticed that he struggles at the plate a lot during BP and he told me that I make him nervous. I had to pull a Gene Stallings quote and tell him, "I'm the coach, I'm going to be at every game." Seriously though, I had a talk with him and told him that although I want him to do well I don't want him to feel overly pressured to perform just because I am the coach. He's been a captain on this team since he was a freshman but this year I felt like I couldn't make coaches kid a captain, that probably not fair to him but to me it was really an impossible situation.
I'm still navigating through this with my son. I have had to call time in 2 games, once when he was at the plate and took a called strike 2 that bounced off the back of the plate and once on the mound when his RF let a routine fly ball fall and then walked to it. I told him in both situations that if he didn't clear his mind that he was struck out already and that he would pitch himself into a worse situation than his RF had now put him in. Many of these young players and parents do not realize how much the mental state plays into the game of baseball maybe more than any other sport.
One thing that I have learned in our first 3 games is that the team will follow my energy. We had a very intense game last Friday, down 6-0 after 2 innings and then came back to win going up 9-6 in the bottom of the 6th. With the intensity of the game and the added pressure of the rivalry coupled with some very questionable calls, it was pretty wild. I noticed that the team will follow what I do so I have to ensure that I maintain an even keel in order for them to maintain their focus throughout the game. I know the limits but I can't trust that my players do so it is imperative that I lead by example and if I have a disagreement with a call, have a quite, private conversation with the umpire.
I've also learned after taking the position of Area Director for Fellowship of Christian Athletes that I have to be a better fan.
By the time my son was 11 he knew everything and wanted no chit chat from the old man. He was a pretty dominate travel player and 15 for 19 weekends were common. But every once in awhile the slump would come and he'd have a 2 for 16. Either way I had already learned not to puff him up when things were rolling or to offer suggestions when it was going the other way.
After a tough weekend, we'd be driving home and he'd be sitting in the stew and by the time we got near the house he'd say something like - "Can we go to the cage?" All I'd say was "Sure" I'd buy bunch of tokens and he'd swing 20 times getting madder and madder and I stood and waited.
Finally I'd get "What do you think?" Usually it was something easy like opening up too soon so I'd offer up "stay closed and push the ball the other way or up the middle. The first one he squared up got a "That's it" and then after a couple more - "There you go". After another few tokens of line drives and restored confidence he'd say "I'm good - I'll get'em next week - let's go eat." Order in the Universe had been restored.
If it is true your life flashes before your eyes when you die - I am sure those times will come again. God I miss that.
luv baseball posted:By the time my son was 11 he knew everything and wanted no chit chat from the old man. He was a pretty dominate travel player and 15 for 19 weekends were common. But every once in awhile the slump would come and he'd have a 2 for 16. Either way I had already learned not to puff him up when things were rolling or to offer suggestions when it was going the other way.
After a tough weekend, we'd be driving home and he'd be sitting in the stew and by the time we got near the house he'd say something like - "Can we go to the cage?" All I'd say was "Sure" I'd buy bunch of tokens and he'd swing 20 times getting madder and madder and I stood and waited.
Finally I'd get "What do you think?" Usually it was something easy like opening up too soon so I'd offer up "stay closed and push the ball the other way or up the middle. The first one he squared up got a "That's it" and then after a couple more - "There you go". After another few tokens of line drives and restored confidence he'd say "I'm good - I'll get'em next week - let's go eat." Order in the Universe had been restored.
If it is true your life flashes before your eyes when you die - I am sure those times will come again. God I miss that.
That's awesome! The older I get the more convinced I become that with sports, less parental involvement is almost always more LOL. Our son just went down to FL with his HS team and we decided just let him go with the team by himself and not make it a family vacation. Wonder of wonders, he survived and played well without ole mom and dad there .
Was in the batting cage last night at 10 pm with college freshman, he came home Sat night after games and needs to leave first thing AM for class (nice being close to home) He said he is close but something is missing. needs some cage swings with nobody watching to figure it out!
Perfect ending to Easter in my opinion, just he and I in the quiet, I don't get many of those nights anymore! Got a hug and everything I guess some of it helped whatever it may have been.
old_school posted:Was in the batting cage last night at 10 pm with college freshman, he came home Sat night after games and needs to leave first thing AM for class (nice being close to home) He said he is close but something is missing. needs some cage swings with nobody watching to figure it out!
Perfect ending to Easter in my opinion, just he and I in the quiet, I don't get many of those nights anymore! Got a hug and everything I guess some of it helped whatever it may have been.
Awesome.
I coached at the same school for many years . I went to a game and watched from the stands. I lasted about 2 innings. It was like listening to sports talk radio. why is the coach doing this ? my kid is batting 8th? Why is this kid playing? etc etc .. I am sure the same conversation was going on in previous years. My trip to subsequent games usually found me down one of the foul lines.
Will posted: I coached at the same school for many years . I went to a game and watched from the stands. I lasted about 2 innings. It was like listening to sports talk radio. why is the coach doing this ? my kid is batting 8th? Why is this kid playing? etc etc .. I am sure the same conversation was going on in previous years. My trip to subsequent games usually found me down one of the foul lines.
Didja give any thought as to why all that talk goes on? Since I try to get as close to behind the plate as possible to score games, I hear that all the time, and usually from both sides. I try to let it go in one ear and out the other but that doesn’t always happen and it distracts me.
Over the years I’ve given it lots of thought and it almost always comes out the same. The fans in the stands are ignorant with a capital “I”! In most cases those people don’t think the way we “real” baseball people do. While we look at the subtleties of the game and understand how the different things going on relate to each other, most fans at amateur baseball games are there because they have some kind of familial or friendship attachment to one or more of the players.
Those people tend to think in terms of their own self-interest and couldn’t care less that there might be very good reasons things are the way they are, even though the questions they ask and the observations they make may well be worthwhile and accurate. But in many instances the ignorance is perpetuated because the person making the decisions either doesn’t have or doesn’t take the time to explain his decision making process.
That’s why I’m so glad that like you I’m not one of the ignorant masses, but unlike you, I can’t just move every time I hear ignorance at a baseball game. As much as it might distract me, I actually have to sit and listen to what other people have to say, ignorant or not.
It is the rare parent that can assess their children dispassionately. Second guessing coaches is nearly a sport to itself - what would sports radio be without that? With a personal stake to amplify matters HS baseball is worse.
My rule of thumb was - the closer you stand to home plate during a HS baseball game is in direct proportion to how much you want to wallow in banal self interested chatter about the genetic flaws, stupidity and lack of talent of every participant on the field - EXCEPT little Johnny.
My tolerance level was half way between the bag and the foul pole on the baselines. So about 150 feet from ground zero behind the backstop - or from the concession. I used to send my little kids for the hot dogs because I'd lose my apatite (and patience) if I got too close to the noise.