Define An Error

It looks like everyone has a different answer.

Even at the MLB level the opinions vary.

Once in a great while scoring a hit or an error can be difficult. Most of the time it is very simple and obvious.

A ball that touches the glove can be an obvious hit.

The ball that doesn't touch the glove can be an obvious error.

There shouldn't be any perspective... It is either a hit or it isn't.

PG,

In your opinion, is it a false perception of the media and fans that scoring for the home team is looked at differently than scoring the visitors, or is it reality?

If it is a reality, how can we look at fielding, batting, and pitching stats in a historical sense if scoring is an debatable art and not a science? Same thing could be said of strikeouts and BB's.

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There shouldn't be any perspective... It is either a hit or it isn't.

It's hard to define in words...Scoring hits and errors is one of those things where you need to be there. It's hard to explain what's a hit or an error but I know it when I see it...

For sure, what shouldn't come into the equation is the situation (e.g. a no hitter or an errorless streak)...

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Originally posted by rz1:
PG,

In your opinion, is it a false perception of the media and fans that scoring for the home team is looked at differently than scoring the visitors, or is it reality?

If it is a reality, how can we look at fielding, batting, and pitching stats in a historical sense if scoring is an debatable art and not a science? Same thing could be said of strikeouts and BB's.

I'm not 100% certain but around 98.3% sure that pro ball hires independent organization to score games and keep stats. This way everyone is on an equal playing field (or pretty close to it) and plays can be ruled without emotion. Still doesn't make it easy but better than Joe Schmo hired by pro team to keep book.

Amateur ball - especially the lower levels - is where you find the questionable stats and stat keeping.

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
Once in a great while scoring a hit or an error can be difficult. Most of the time it is very simple and obvious.

A ball that touches the glove can be an obvious hit.

The ball that doesn't touch the glove can be an obvious error.

There shouldn't be any perspective... It is either a hit or it isn't.

Is daddy scoring? Because that's makes it easy...he reported his son made no errors at second base in 20 games.... You know of a MLB team for the kid - obviously he's a stud!

So just this week, his kid is at first, 2 outs, my son hits a blooper that falls fair by inches. His son does not move.... ends up thrown out at second. Daddy tried to give my son a FC - he hated to take away a hit though! No, it's a hit, with a running error for the third out. This is a sore subject right now on the team because of that dad.

I try to look at effort - a hard hit grounder that an infielder is lucky to keep in front can be a hit. I have seen some serious misplays in which outfielders completely missed fly balls. If I were a coach I would have E*. The * would indicate - a misread, a late jump, bad hop.

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So just this week, his kid is at first, 2 outs, my son hits a blooper that falls fair by inches. His son does not move.... ends up thrown out at second. Daddy tried to give my son a FC - he hated to take away a hit though! No, it's a hit, with a running error for the third out.

No, unfortunately, it is a FC since it's a force play...There is no such thing as a running error. But I sympathize with you. When someone doesn't play at a 'typical' level they can skew the stats for themselves and others.

Last night the opponents 2B just watched when their pitcher deflected a ball up the middle. By the time he tracked the ball down the runner was safe with an infield hit on what should have been an easy 4-3 putout. We had three or four infield hits last night that should have been outs...Those guys were not being kind to their pitcher.

An error is scored on a play that should have been made with Ordinary Effort. I've always interpreted that to mean ordinary effort for that level of play. This does not mean dumbing it down because a team has lousy D; it also doesn't mean holding them to Ozzie Smith standards.

Touching or not touching the glove is irrelevant. An easy pop up falling in front of a fielder is an error; a guy running hard, stretching out and just tipping the ball probably isn't (I use the Holy Cow Standard; if the play would have been made would I have said "Holy Cow, did you see that!!!". If I would have, not making the play is not an error.)

If a turn at bat is extended or a runner advances a base because of a missplay, that extention/advance has to be accounted for with an error.

Do remember that PB and WP are not errors, and that the scorer can't assume a DP.

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Originally posted by dswann:
Define an error.

Any sentence, when talking to my wife, that starts with, "but", or doesn't start with, "I think you're right", is an error.

I am 100% with Orlando on this one. Ordinary effort "for that level of play." The situations where there is doubt on how to score something is very rare. Then you just make a judgement call. But they are rare. If you find someone that constantly is in doubt on how to score something that tells you all you need to know about their ability to score a game correctly.

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Originally posted by Hawk19:

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So just this week, his kid is at first, 2 outs, my son hits a blooper that falls fair by inches. His son does not move.... ends up thrown out at second. Daddy tried to give my son a FC - he hated to take away a hit though! No, it's a hit, with a running error for the third out.

No, unfortunately, it is a FC since it's a force play...There is no such thing as a running error. But I sympathize with you. When someone doesn't play at a 'typical' level they can skew the stats for themselves and others.

Last night the opponents 2B just watched when their pitcher deflected a ball up the middle. By the time he tracked the ball down the runner was safe with an infield hit on what should have been an easy 4-3 putout. We had three or four infield hits last night that should have been outs...Those guys were not being kind to their pitcher.

I don't think I agree - there are such thing things as running errors.

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Fielder's Choices

Occasionally you'll see a hit which ordinarily would not allow the hitter to reach first base, but because the fielding side elect to throw to a different base to get out another runner, they do not have time to make the out at first base. This is referred to as a "fielder's choice" and the hitter is not credited with a base hit (it's scored as if he hit an out, it's just that it was a team-mate who got out).

It is not a fielder's choice if the hitter hits safely, but a team-mate gets himself out on a running error.

It's from the first website I pulled up. Will see if I can cross reference when I have time.

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It is not a fielder's choice if the hitter hits safely, but a team-mate gets himself out on a running error.

Please indulge me. I'm not trying to argue, I just find this interesting (this is where my wife tells me to drop it but she's not here right now...)

I always felt that the above was only applicable to a tag play. For example, runner on second breaks for third on a grounder to SS. Normally an easy 6-3 putout but you can't assume that. In this case the SS tags the runner and batter is safe. I might score that an infield hit and 'caught stealing'...

Force outs are always 'Fielder's Choice' in my book. Otherwise you're playing too much woulda, coulda, shoulda...He woulda been safe if he coulda got a better jump and he shoulda been running anyway...

I think from what few minutes I've refreshed my memory - Fielding errors are quantified. They are judgments by a scorer on what should coulda would been an out.

A baserunning error does not effect those stats. But it does show a mental error. In this case, the runner on first shoulda taken off immediately and under ordinary effort woulda been safe at second. The batter/runner was safe at first because the ball landed in the grass - there was no error on the fielding. Since all outs and runs have to be accounted for, this is on the lead runner. Kinda like when a runner over runs a base and is tagged out. If he had done his job there would be no out.


Ordinary effort is the key to scoring.

aspirin anyone?

55mom,
In this case no judgement is necessary or allowed. Here's the scoring rule

"10.05 Base Hits
......
(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;

(2) batter apparently hits safely and a runner who is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner fails to touch the first base to which such runner is advancing and is called out on appeal. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
......"

The rules for scoring may not always strike us as fair, but many situations are handled by strict rule. That cuts down on the number of judgements required from the scorekeeper.

In the case of a forced runner being out, whether by slow running or just by missing the next base (clearly an running "error"), there is no base hit. It is a fielder's choice.

I know you don't like it, but that's why scorekeepers get the big bucks.

I think most of the answers can be found here.

Scoring Rules

A more official source is MLB.com. The scoring rules have changed somewhat in the last couple of years, and baseball-almanac.com hasn't updated their page.

OBR Rules at MLB.com

Hi guys - thanks.

I read the MLB pdf file. Is what accountants do?

I understand completely about getting a lead runner resulting in a force play. And I know the rules are intended to be fair but do not always seem that way. Son felt the at bat and hit was sorry anyway, and this does not really matter. (except for the stud, who also had 4 throwing errors that a good first baseman would have erased. Another example of scoring that does not seem fair. A good/great 1st baseman makes plays a fair to middling 1st baseman doesn't make.)

My point is, I think , FC is not in order because the poor base running set it up. Son was safe at first as the fielder picked up the ball - lead runner was still just feet from first. It was really a strange play. Maybe there should be a caught sleeping?

The team has these little mental tics from time to time and it can be pretty frustrating.

One more question then.

Outfielder looses the ball in the lights or sun or whatever - he stops running. Ball falls safely three feet in front of him. error or hit? With ordinary effort it would have been caught, I say error.

So many use the *glove on it* standard. A tremendous diving catch that results in a catch one time but a miss the next is not an error. The Holy Cow standard is a good one.

NFHS rules:

Rule 9 Section 5 Article 5: "An error is charged against a fielder or a team for each misplay that prolongs the time at bat of the batter or the time a player continues to be a runner, or permits the runner to advance one or more bases."

The ball does not have to be touched to be considered an error. Conversely, a fielder who hesitates before throwing is not charged with an error because there has not been a misplay. A dropped pop or fly in foul territory is not an error unless an outfielder is deliberately letting the ball drop to avoid a sacrifice fly.

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the pop up that falls harmlessly in the infield is considered a hit.

Only in LL with mommy scoring.

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I'm not 100% certain but around 98.3% sure that pro ball hires independent organization to score games and keep stats.

They hire sportswriters.

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So just this week, his kid is at first, 2 outs, my son hits a blooper that falls fair by inches. His son does not move.... ends up thrown out at second. Daddy tried to give my son a FC - he hated to take away a hit though! No, it's a hit, with a running error for the third out. This is a sore subject right now on the team because of that dad.

Correct call by the scorer. Had your son driven the ball off the fence and a runner was forced out it will still be a fielder's choice.

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For example, runner on second breaks for third on a grounder to SS. Normally an easy 6-3 putout but you can't assume that. In this case the SS tags the runner and batter is safe. I might score that an infield hit and 'caught stealing'...

The correct scoring would have been fielder's choice. No one was stealing since the hitter put the ball in play.

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think most of the answers can be found here.

Scoring Rules

Don't confuse Organized Baseball Rules (OBR), which MLB uses with Federation Rules (FED), which high school uses.

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there are such thing things as running errors

Mental errors are not registered in the scorebook.

OMG! In part of a season of scoring high school ball I've turned into a rules geek!

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quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think most of the answers can be found here.

Scoring Rules
Don't confuse Organized Baseball Rules (OBR), which MLB uses with Federation Rules (FED), which high school uses.

That link pertains to scoring rules, not the rules of the game. Guess I am confused... What would be the difference in scoring rules at different levels?

RJM --- call me a geek as well. I've been scoring games for longer than I care to remember, and I can only say to your calls here

Mental errors are not "official"...though I have been known to note them (and Bad Calls) in the book . But they can't be involved in proving the scoring.

PG, I can't think of a way that scorekeeping rules would be different at the different levels of play. Other, of course, than how harshly I might judge Ordinary Effort.

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Originally posted by RJM:

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the pop up that falls harmlessly in the infield is considered a hit.

Only in LL with mommy scoring.

Why thank you kind sir

Thanks to everyone who answered my questions!

Have a Great Day.

Here is a question regarding the infield pop up dropping and how to score it:

This past weekend we had a game where a kid hit an easy pop up in that "no-man's land" between the pitchers mound and first base/second base...not right at the first baseman and not right at the second baseman.

All three players went for the ball (pitcher, 1B, and 2B)...nobody called it, nobody took charge and just went for the ball....and then they all caught each other out of the corner of their eyes and stopped....ball drops dead in the middle of all of them.

Now for the pitcher...that would have been a pretty tough play, so I take him out of the equation....but for the 1B and 2b men...who would get the error here?

I scored it a hit because, while I think they all made a bonehead play, nobody actually misplayed the ball (and we can't score mental errors.) Also, when I say the ball was dead between them all...I mean, you probably couldn't of just dropped it anymore dead center.

Your ideas are appreciated....thanks.

Errors, like beauty , are in the eye of the beholder !!!

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Errors, like beauty , are in the eye of the beholder !!!

I guess I shoulda posted about this dad under the "don't be this dad" thread. Can I plead a head cold/allergies? It's yellow down here. bad

B, you don't say if there were men on base, so I'm going to assume none (had there been a man on 1st, for example, I would presume 1B to be covering). Without seeing the angle each had on the ball, I'd probably suggest 2B gets the error, keeping in mind that if there were any question about the catchability of the ball, 1B should have been on 1B in case of a throw.

To me, the collective brain cramp doesn't override the fact that the ball was catchable. And if that isn't enough, probably also fieldable enough that the runner could have been thrown out at first....if they hadn't been having that meeting

Buzzard05-

Tough call on who gets the E, but definitely not a hit in any case. I'd probably go with Orlando and give it to the 2B.

Welcome to the HSBBW!

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Originally posted by spizzlepop:
Buzzard05-

Tough call on who gets the E, but definitely not a hit in any case. I'd probably go with Orlando and give it to the 2B.

Welcome to the HSBBW!

If the sun was a factor would it still be a hit

I don't think I've ever seen anything in the rules about the sun or the lights, maybe somebody can correct me.

Me, I don't universally agree with that excuse; maybe it's a 'play at that level' judgement. Experienced ballplayers are aware where the sun is and which hit balls are going to be impacted by the sun (or the lights). If there is no move to so much as shade their eyes with their glove, they just volunteered for an E in my (literal ) book as they didn't show ordinary effort.

Younger guys who have limited experience, I would cut some slack. Travel teams, hs players and above....ought to know how to handle bright light.

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Originally posted by 55mom:

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Originally posted by RJM:

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the pop up that falls harmlessly in the infield is considered a hit.

Only in LL with mommy scoring.

Why thank you kind sir

Thanks to everyone who answered my questions!

Have a Great Day.

My comment wasn't directed at you. It was a joke about the good 'ole days of little kid ball.

Circling the wagons on an infield pop, not a hit. The ball has been misplayed. By high school sun is not an excuse. They know how to play the sun. Someone should have taken the proper angle to avoid the sun.

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What would be the difference in scoring rules at different levels?

Many of the differences are in the administration of the game. Some "in game" rules that are different are the balk, obstruction, hitter stepping on the plate, fielder out of bounds after catch, malicious contact on slides and appeal procedure.

RJM,
How is that not a hit? A good drag bunt does the same thing and I thought that was a hit. Can you give an error to someone when 2 players could have made the play? Who would you give the error to and how would you score it? Just curious. I have seen it as a hit in MLB.