Have any of you heard of players who were recruited to play on college teams despite hitting below .200 his junior year in high school? My 2020 has solid measurables for a DIII MIF but couldn't buy a hit the second half of the HS season. 

Original Post

I don't think that will matter too much, especially at the D3 level. From what I've learned, for the most part, college coaches make their decisions based upon what they see and high school stats are so incredibly variable and difficult to evaluate that they're rarely used in the equation. The only place this might impact is the conference/district/state- type awards that the players would typically put in their bio upon entering college after being recruited.

Six-Four-Three posted:

Have any of you heard of players who were recruited to play on college teams despite hitting below .200 his junior year in high school? My 2020 has solid measurables for a DIII MIF but couldn't buy a hit the second half of the HS season. 

Despite what most say here (that HS stats mean zero), it can raise a flag.  But most college recruiting is more connected to the travel side of things.  If he was with a good travel org, showed well for himself and has someone reputable that can speak to his abilities, in most cases, it won't matter.  Also, if he is targeting D3 specifically, there are other factors that play in his favor.  They recruit later, so a good summer and subsequently a good senior year when any recruiting schools may be inclined to keep tabs can go a long way.  Also, with no athletic $ to hand out, D3's are much more likely to "encourage" as many as possible to be part of the program in the fall and let the players battle it out then.

If he clearly shows the skill set and has the opportunity to get in front of the desired schools, it is much less likely to matter.

Is he with a decent travel/summer program?  

I suspect if they make no difference from a positive perspective, then conversely they probably don't on the negative side.  As Tequila said, the eye test matters.  That said, there is an appreciable difference between typical HS pitching and most, if not all, D3 college pitching.  I guess only you can answer why he's struggling with HS pitching but would be better able to successfully handle D3 college pitching.

It probably isn't a huge deal, but at the same time most guys batting .200 in HS aren't getting recruited. 

To cabbage's point- they don't mean absolutely nothing either. They usually don't matter because most guys are hitting well over .300 against mostly non college level pitching. The idea is that the colleges sift thru the players batting over .300 and determine which ones are actually college players and which are the product of weak pitching. 

2019 received a call from his college coach last year. Asked why one of his teammates (who was on their radar) had only thrown 15 innings thru 20 games. So you never know who is checking in. Deal Breaker? Maybe not. Red Flag? Absolutely. 

cabbagedad posted:
Six-Four-Three posted:

Have any of you heard of players who were recruited to play on college teams despite hitting below .200 his junior year in high school? My 2020 has solid measurables for a DIII MIF but couldn't buy a hit the second half of the HS season. 

Despite what most say here (that HS stats mean zero), it can raise a flag.  But most college recruiting is more connected to the travel side of things.  If he was with a good travel org, showed well for himself and has someone reputable that can speak to his abilities, in most cases, it won't matter.  Also, if he is targeting D3 specifically, there are other factors that play in his favor.  They recruit later, so a good summer and subsequently a good senior year when any recruiting schools may be inclined to keep tabs can go a long way.  Also, with no athletic $ to hand out, D3's are much more likely to "encourage" as many as possible to be part of the program in the fall and let the players battle it out then.

If he clearly shows the skill set and has the opportunity to get in front of the desired schools, it is much less likely to matter.

Is he with a decent travel/summer program?  

Yeah, he is with one of the better travel organizations in the Northeastern US, so that should help. The coach has an excellent reputation and gets lots of kids placed. 

9and7dad posted:

I suspect if they make no difference from a positive perspective, then conversely they probably don't on the negative side.  As Tequila said, the eye test matters.  That said, there is an appreciable difference between typical HS pitching and most, if not all, D3 college pitching.  I guess only you can answer why he's struggling with HS pitching but would be better able to successfully handle D3 college pitching.

Yeah, he tended to hit better against the better pitchers, so I'm not too worried. He also had some bad luck -- they all do -- and led the team by a mile in ROE, so add it all up and he was still making things happen even with a low batting average. 

Six-Four-Three posted:
cabbagedad posted:
Six-Four-Three posted:

Have any of you heard of players who were recruited to play on college teams despite hitting below .200 his junior year in high school? My 2020 has solid measurables for a DIII MIF but couldn't buy a hit the second half of the HS season. 

Despite what most say here (that HS stats mean zero), it can raise a flag.  But most college recruiting is more connected to the travel side of things.  If he was with a good travel org, showed well for himself and has someone reputable that can speak to his abilities, in most cases, it won't matter.  Also, if he is targeting D3 specifically, there are other factors that play in his favor.  They recruit later, so a good summer and subsequently a good senior year when any recruiting schools may be inclined to keep tabs can go a long way.  Also, with no athletic $ to hand out, D3's are much more likely to "encourage" as many as possible to be part of the program in the fall and let the players battle it out then.

If he clearly shows the skill set and has the opportunity to get in front of the desired schools, it is much less likely to matter.

Is he with a decent travel/summer program?  

Yeah, he is with one of the better travel organizations in the Northeastern US, so that should help. The coach has an excellent reputation and gets lots of kids placed. 

Then no worries at all!  As "confused" put it, may just come up as a check box - son will want to be prepared to explain away but not offer up unless asked... something like "went thru a period where I hit everything hard right at people.  I'm back to shooting gaps regularly with (xx travel) and both coaches will gladly speak on my behalf."

cabbagedad posted:
Six-Four-Three posted:
cabbagedad posted:
Six-Four-Three posted:

Have any of you heard of players who were recruited to play on college teams despite hitting below .200 his junior year in high school? My 2020 has solid measurables for a DIII MIF but couldn't buy a hit the second half of the HS season. 

Despite what most say here (that HS stats mean zero), it can raise a flag.  But most college recruiting is more connected to the travel side of things.  If he was with a good travel org, showed well for himself and has someone reputable that can speak to his abilities, in most cases, it won't matter.  Also, if he is targeting D3 specifically, there are other factors that play in his favor.  They recruit later, so a good summer and subsequently a good senior year when any recruiting schools may be inclined to keep tabs can go a long way.  Also, with no athletic $ to hand out, D3's are much more likely to "encourage" as many as possible to be part of the program in the fall and let the players battle it out then.

If he clearly shows the skill set and has the opportunity to get in front of the desired schools, it is much less likely to matter.

Is he with a decent travel/summer program?  

Yeah, he is with one of the better travel organizations in the Northeastern US, so that should help. The coach has an excellent reputation and gets lots of kids placed. 

Then no worries at all!  As "confused" put it, may just come up as a check box - son will want to be prepared to explain away but not offer up unless asked... something like "went thru a period where I hit everything hard right at people.  I'm back to shooting gaps regularly with (xx travel) and both coaches will gladly speak on my behalf."

That's excellent advice. Thanks cabbagedad!

My son had serious interest from 3 D1's before he signed.  None saw him play in a HS game, and none ever mentioned his HS stats.  They know what they saw the days they came to see him (travel, against top level teams).  If I'm a college coach and I even looked at HS stats (which I don't think many do), the only thing I might notice is if the strikeout ratio was high.  My son K'd 2 times in 100 plate appearances his senior year.   The college guys are somewhere in the 1:5 range being acceptable.  If I'm looking at a HS kid (and this is somewhat depending on where he plays, competition, etc) I'd hope he would be in the 1:8-1:10 range.....but again, if the college guy comes to see him play a good team during the summer and he goes 6-10, the HS stats are going to mean zero

PABaseball posted:

It probably isn't a huge deal, but at the same time most guys batting .200 in HS aren't getting recruited. 

To cabbage's point- they don't mean absolutely nothing either. They usually don't matter because most guys are hitting well over .300 against mostly non college level pitching. The idea is that the colleges sift thru the players batting over .300 and determine which ones are actually college players and which are the product of weak pitching. 

2019 received a call from his college coach last year. Asked why one of his teammates (who was on their radar) had only thrown 15 innings thru 20 games. So you never know who is checking in. Deal Breaker? Maybe not. Red Flag? Absolutely. 

Certainly not many .200 hitters are getting recruited but this is because there probably is a reason a guy is hitting .200. Most .200 hitters in HS simply suck, they have bad stats because they lack batspeed and hand eye coordination. The scout in the stands probably won't even look at his stats because he can see right away that the guy can't hit.

It probably is hard to be a .200 hitter against high school defenses if you are a good hitter even over a sub 100 AB sample.

Six-Four-Three posted:

I agree with that. I notice on MaxPreps that some of these high schools have zero kids reaching on errors — everything is a hit. In my kids case that would have brought him up above .300 right there. Colleges can’t take those stats too seriously. (I hope.) 

Agree 100%. I always do a book to keep stats for my son. Occasionally when the official score keeper is out of town the coaches ask me to fill in. During the HS season one boy always got lucky and had 6 doubles (for the season) all off errors. I know a double is a double but it sucks when he gets them due to the other teams throwing errors or FC.

So, this comment is not at all directed toward the OP, Six-four-three as I think his son is in good shape... 

I hinted toward this earlier.  Son is a college coach at a smaller school, does a fair amount of recruiting and networks with other coaches who do the same.  Certainly, it is the norm for big D1's and perennial powers of other levels to make sure they get their eyes on their recruits in person at least a couple times.  But here is something that isn't talked about much here...

Many of the other schools rely on other means.  As example, there are a whole bunch of NAIA/D2's in other parts of the country that recruit California JC kids.  Often times, they NEVER get their eyes on the kid in person until they arrive in the fall.  They use a combination of referrals, networking, recruiting videos, google searches for highlights/awards, Maxpreps and college stat lines, Local sports TV highlight spots, player phone interviews/discussions, text dialog, etc.  The referral from a trusted source in combination with seeing recruiting and other video of the player is what carries most weight.   I understand that this isn't completely apples and apples when talking about a player who has already competed at the JC level.  But some of this same thing applies, particularly for many average D3's, with players coming straight out of HS.  They may only see them once at a HA event or come by referral of a travel organization or HS program they have networked with in the past.  My son has had me scout and research players and use my network of coaches in order to find potential players for his program on the other side of the country.  They have offered more than one player without ever seeing them in person but with confidence because of the multiple cross-checking steps they take.  One of those many steps usually includes a glance at the numbers.  As Pabaseball  and Buckeye point out, it isn't always the traditional numbers that is the focus.  Often, key indicators are BB/K rates for P's, K's for hitters, XBH%, etc. - little things that can be worth exploring further.  It is just one of many checkpoints that is one of the steps taken, but usually only after the player has already been referred.

These recruiting coaches are also more than aware of the variances in HS competition and in the quality of stats kept as well as the small sample size.  If recruiting in a region they are familiar, they also have an awareness of the level of competition of specific HS leagues/conferences/division levels.  Much leeway is given toward these variances.  But, they still look... and it is not uncommon.  They do also take note of league/area awards, etc. 

I am usually the first to advise players (and parents) not to worry about that stuff.  Just go out and play your best and let those chips fall.  Don't get caught up in all the BS about unfair scorekeeping, etc.  In the big picture, it matters very little.  If you are a player, you are a player.  But to constantly hear on this site that HS stats mean zero and no one ever looks... well, that just isn't factual.  They may not ask about them but don't be fooled into thinking they never look.  

Here's a typical conversation I have with my son... knowing that school X has a strong program and any P that is starting must be at least pretty strong, he will say "Hey, I saw the highlights of the X vs Y game the other day.  I like the X starter... like his arm action and presence.  Hard to tell on TV, do you know where he sits (velo)?  Do you know anything about him?  Can you talk to Coach and find out more?  Is he committed, getting interest?  Looks like his K ratio is really good and so is control.  They aren't giving him much run support."  (the latter few points coming from his subsequent glance at Maxpreps).

On the flip side of the coin, most college players end up at a school within the general vicinity of their home.  In that instance, the college coaches will likely have a level of familiarity with that player and the HS stats, including any blip - high or low, are even less meaningful.  There are plenty of local resources familiar with the player that a coach can reach out to and get any questions answered, as well as more opportunity to see the player in person.  But again, it doesn't mean they don't look.  I have had local college coaches approach me (when I was HS coach) with comments like... "wow, 80K's in 55 IP, is his stuff that good?".  

In today's era of Facechat and Snapface getting kids names and stats "out there" should be easy and for the most part it is. I have seen coaches that are like a PR firm for their kids, posting stats, vids, endorsements. And then there are coaches that don't do anything, either they don't know how or are lazy. 

One other thing that may contribute besides stats.  College coaches have a wide network of contacts besides the player's high school coach.  In my son's case, HC spoke to a few opposing coaches in the same baseball league.  He wanted to get info on son's work ethics, team support, attitude, etc, from the opposition viewpoint.  Opposition coaches will usually tell it like it is.  Thus this serves as a reminder you never know who is watching.  Always try your hardest, be a gracious winner, a compassionate loser, an encouraging and supportive teammate, and show humility.

A friend's son (2015 graduate) played only 3 games of varsity High School baseball.  Lot of politics, I told him not to worry son had skills.  Note,  received baseball scholarship from Akron (before it suspended program).  Attended Florence Darlington (NJCAA-D1) , the Santa Barbara (cccaa) before doing last 2 years at Saint Leo's (ncaa-d2). 

He ran a 6.4    60, left handed batter, strong arm.

High School stats are subjective at best as for the competition  varies.

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

A friend's son (2015 graduate) played only 3 games of varsity High School baseball.  Lot of politics, I told him not to worry son had skills.  Note,  received baseball scholarship from Akron (before it suspended program).  Attended Florence Darlington (NJCAA-D1) , the Santa Barbara (cccaa) before doing last 2 years at Saint Leo's (ncaa-d2). 

He ran a 6.4    60, left handed batter, strong arm.

High School stats are subjective at best as for the competition  varies.

WOW! Thanks for sharing!

meads posted:
CollegebaseballInsights posted:

A friend's son (2015 graduate) played only 3 games of varsity High School baseball.  Lot of politics, I told him not to worry son had skills.  Note,  received baseball scholarship from Akron (before it suspended program).  Attended Florence Darlington (NJCAA-D1) , the Santa Barbara (cccaa) before doing last 2 years at Saint Leo's (ncaa-d2). 

He ran a 6.4    60, left handed batter, strong arm.

High School stats are subjective at best as for the competition  varies.

WOW! Thanks for sharing!

No problem. You can find a place. Remember the objective is to get out of college with the least amount of debt.  Many call it the 4.40 .   Meaning 4 years of baseball, 40 years of you career after baseball. 

I found these articles to be very informative.  Also check out the podcast.

Investigating College Baseball Programs

 

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...e-programs-online-2/

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...-school-recruitment/

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...rents-answered-2018/

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...-scholarship-offers/

 

 

What you Need to know about community College Baseball by Ethan Guevin

 

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...ege-baseball-part-1/

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...ll-part-2-academics/

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...part-3-transferring/

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...rt-4-levels-of-play/

 

Good luck.

My son had a D3 coach see him at the Arizona Fall Classic in October of 2018 and recruited him because he liked his energy between innings and how he led his team OFF the field in the dugout. He only watched him for TWO innings the whole long weekend and has not stopped calling even though my son signed in February of this year. That school is in the D3 World Series starting on Wednesday. The coaches their must be doing something right.

Do high school stats matter? It depends. I have seen pitchers get their D1 scholly's dropped based on overall performance and mental stuff. I have heard position players getting calls telling them that they may have to play outfield vs infield once they arrive to school. But I have not heard any stories that attribute bad statistics in high school to recruiting.

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