Do players Honestly know they are pro prospects or not

Maybe they think they are the next Greg Maddux.

84-85 mph could be very good speed in HS, if the scout detect room to improve on mechanics or physically (Late growing kids). Dennis Martinez used to throw 79 mph in HS. At major league he reached 91 mph, and had a terrific big leagues carrear. Figuring the prospect's potential is one of the skills that a good scout needs. If those kids walked on to that work out with out invitation, they showed courage and positive actitud, that also is needed to be successfull in baseball. It is not their job to know if they are prospects, that is the scout job, but if they don't show up, there are not chances at all.

Maybe we should just look at who plays in the major leagues today. Despite what some may think not every player was a 1st round draft pick. If our lives were dictated by what other people thought and standards and we just bowed to their whims there are a lot of successful people that would be left behind.

Will,

Greg Maddux when he signed out of HS threw 88-92 mph with fastball that moved 18 inches and had pin point control of 4 pitches.

How many pitchers at the MLB level have Maddux stuff, not many that why he is a hall of famer


alot of players who threw 84-85 mph in hs went to college and improved and became much better. Bily Wagner and Roger Clemens to name a few.

Dibble,

Read Racab's post - a few times.

Hopefully - at some point - the wisdom in that post may actually sink in.

Martinez did not throw 79 mph when he was signed. he was signed in 1973.

Dennis Martinez

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/dennis_martinez.shtml

They did not have radar guns then. First testing device at the mLB level was used at 1974 on Nolan Ryan and the JUgs gun started around 1975.

And according to the above reasoning ever hs player should have crashed PG pre draft showcase.


MLB scouts have open tryout camps, attend them.

Dibble,

Simply put - you do not have the qualifications - nor do you have the authority -to make such statements.

If uninvited players are allowed to attend the various events - then I hope that many of the young men with dreams and some skill do just that.

If uninvited players are not allowed to attend - then they will be turned away.

Your "advice" is nothing more than blather and drivel IMO.

I know of many univited young players - who were drafted. From the late 70's up to last year.

If those young men took your "advice" (derision) - perhaps they may have never had the experience of playing professional baseball.

IMO - You should keep posting the links and the wacky funny stories - and stay away from serious stuff.

Just my opinion.

dibble
I never said that Dennis was signed throwing 79 mph, what I said was that in HS he was throwing 79. He didn't played HS baseball in this country, but in his native Nicaragua. I don't know if you have met Denis, I did and his son played HS and Collegue with one of my kids. What I said, he told me, if you know more than him self, my excuses, you know more than everybody.

First post was do players honestly know if they are pro prospects or not.

MLB scouts have invite only Pre Draft Workouts for A REASON

If you think they missed on you attended an open tryout camp.

Read the posts, players did not show MLB tools but were totally convinced they did and they did not. Be realistic about your ability and relize you are being rated on MLB standards not HS or college level.


one of the uninvite players was good, threw 91 mph.

Racab,

I have mentioned this once or twice before in the past few years, but I just wanted to say again: I really appreciate what you add to this forum. Your posts are always thoughtful and often make me stop and think as well. Thank you!

quote:

one of the uninvite players was good, threw 91 mph.

That pretty much tells everyone all they need to know about this discussion and the opinion that throwing 91 is the only thing that makes one "good".

Big et al ...

Amen !!!

Mn-Mom

Thanks, you are so kind.

Do they know?

I certainly hope they do not know or care, only "enjoy the game"and learn, learn, learn from each AB, each pitch, each loss or victory.

During my 19 years with the Area Code games, the pro scouts cut players in tryouts, who later become 1st round drafts and Major League players.

Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Adam LaRoche,
Andy LaRoche and Bobby Bradley all were recommended by non-pro scouts for a Area Code team and played in the games.

There are two areas where scouts cannot evaluate in a one day tryout.

1. The heart [make-up]
2. The "bat"

If Pete Rose wanted to "walk on" to our tryout, he would receive the opportunity.
My son, Robert and I in 1997 conduct a tryout in Beijing, China and everyone "walk on".
It was a great experience.

Bob Williams

Recab said:

quote:

Figuring the prospect's potential is one of the skills that a good scout needs.....It is not their job to know if they are prospects, that is the scout job

My son called today and we talked about his team being selected to participate in the NCAA regional at Tallahassee, FL. During our phone conversation he said; “I’ve been so tied up in baseball that the draft has really sneaked up on me; it’s less than a week away”. I know how much he wants to move into pro ball this year so I thought for a second and said basically what Recab says....Here’s what I said to my son... ”Don’t worry about the pro draft or things you have no control of, if you play your game to the best of your ability, everything else will take care of itself.”
Fungo

Thank God we have posters with COMMON SENSE who offset the DRIVEL of DIBBLE


Andy May (DIBBLE/DRIVEL) stay around for 'comic relief" but nothing else please--you know what you speak of--

quote:

Originally posted by Dibble:
Greg Maddux when he signed out of HS threw 88-92 mph with fastball that moved 18 inches and had pin point control of 4 pitches.

How many pitchers at the MLB level have Maddux stuff, not many that why he is a hall of famer


alot of players who threw 84-85 mph in hs went to college and improved and became much better. Bily Wagner and Roger Clemens to name a few.

Maddux threw only three pitches in High School...fastball, curve and change. He was 90-95mph and the fastball and change both had a nice tail, but did not move 18". He did have very good control however.

quote:

”Don’t worry about the pro draft or things you have no control of, if you play your game to the best of your ability, everything else will take care of itself.”

Amen, Brother.

TR be nice I never point out your lack of coaching experience at any level like high school, college, NCAA summer league or profesional ball and how you always refuse to answer that question.

How did your HS Showcase in California go a few years ago and how come you dont do anymore in the land of the Governator. ( hint hint)

Any of you who think that you have to throw 90 plus to be a great pitcher let me just throw this out to you. Prepsters son was 1st team ALL ACC this year. I had the priveledge of seeing him pitch in person several times this year and on TV as well. He is a pitcher. He has command of three or four pitches and battles his heart out. He is a stud. He is not an overpowering guy. He just gets people out and knows how to pitch at a very high level in an outstanding league. There are a few guys on that staff at UNC that throw low to mid 90's and they are very good pitchers. But prepsters son was the most effective pitcher on that staff throughout the entire season eventually earning a spot on the starting rotation from the bull pen as a long reliever. Prepster let me just say this I enjoy watching your son pitch. He is everything in my opinion a pitcher should be. He had an outstanding season and I wish him all the luck as well as his teamates in the Gainsville regional this week end.

DRIVEL

Point out whatever you want-- I dont think coaching at the levels you speak of makes you a better baseball man--and I never refused to answer--read my profile--that is why it is there

As for the WEST COAST , hint hint, it didnt work out --plain and simple--as they say """" Happens !

In closing DRIVEL speaking of not answering----have your heard from Angelfire yet?

quote:

Originally posted by Dibble:
Greg Maddux when he signed out of HS threw 88-92 mph with fastball that moved 18 inches and had pin point control of 4 pitches...

If Maddux threw 88-92 with pinpoint control and 18" of movement, why would he back off the mphs? Your post, as usual, makes no sense.

In any business, you try different things. Some work, some do not. Having the courage to try is important. That takes us back to the original ignorant post and comments. If the kids want to show up and try out and try to chase their dreams. What does it hurt? The scouts could say no. They didn't. (Obviously you would have, but we all know that you aer a lurker and have no say so) They looked and evaluated. Any good scout would look. Telling everyone not to try is weird for someone who is a scout wannabe like you. Maybe that is why you are a wannabe and not a scout? Hmmmm.

I admire the kids for trying. It only takes one guy or one good day for a scout to see something. It hurts nobody to try your best. Why do you resent that so much?

Bighit

Obviously you dont know DRIVEL--there is no logic in his thinking

I too agree that kids are to be commended for trying to follow their dreams---any good scout worth his salt will take a look at every kid he can because you never when you find an "unknown gem" especially if the scout is already there to see other players

"It only takes one guy or one good day for a scout to see something."

There is a ring of truth to that statement, and I can personally testify to that.

I fully respect the guys who are the, "can't miss" players. Those are the easy ones for scouts and everyone to pick out. It's the kid who really does have what it takes and has not fully developed yet that is intriguing. The players who have that fire burning inside of them to get it done no matter how many people tell them they can't. These are the guys that make a great scout great. And, IMO it is what makes the game so great. "Persistence is Omnipotent." There are many examples. A couple of my favorites are guys like Mike Piazza, or Marcus Giles.

Having said this, the players must have a certain skill set, but these border line guys with a lot of heart and desire are the more fascinating stories to me.

First of all there are proper places like open tryout camps and showcases for players to be seen. That is the whole point of them.

Just showing up to an INVITE ONLY PRE DRAFT uninvited. For one thing is not gonna make any scout happy. They have spent alot of time and money scouting and screening the invited players and want one last look before submitting their draft list.


TR How many hours do you average a day online???
Does not it strain yours eyes???

quote:

For one thing is not gonna make any scout happy.

How would you know? Furthermore, believing in yourself enough to show up shows me guts and determination. Those are pretty good mental tools and if I am a "good scout", I am going to look. If you want to go home, go ahead. Then you can be one of the many bad and lazy scouts.

I would think that if it was in fact "an invite only" predraft showcase, then the scouts would have a list of names who were invited. If your name wasn't on the list, i would think you would have been turned away? Just a thought.

Coming from someone who had over 140 players drafted or signed to affialiated or independent league contracts in the last 3 years in tryout camps I have run. Someone must think I know what I am doing.


Bighit, it takes talent plus determination to be a pro player.

quote:

Bighit, it takes talent plus determination to be a pro player.

How would you know?

Wouldn't showing up to a showcase uninvited be a sign of determination? At least one of the uninvited had talent AND determination by your own admission. So wouldn't that alone make it worth it to see as many players as humanly possible?

quote:

Originally posted by Dibble:
First post was do players honestly know if they are pro prospects or not.

MLB scouts have invite only Pre Draft Workouts for A REASON

If you think they missed on you attended an open tryout camp.

Read the posts, players did not show MLB tools but were totally convinced they did and they did not. Be realistic about your ability and relize you are being rated on MLB standards not HS or college level.


one of the uninvite players was good, threw 91 mph.

So...if the on univited player threw 91 mph why wouldn't he think he was pro material. Especially since 90 mph is the magic number. Guess he was right to show up.

Dibble.....just wondering.....of the 140 players who attended your camps and were signed......how many would have been signed if they had not attended your camp?

I have actually coached several players who were drafted and/or signed.......it wasn't because of me that they advanced to the professional ranks; it was due to their abilities and skills. None of them ever had to pay me a cent, either!

grateful

when a play succeeds it is due to all of a number of factors:

Just to name a few and DRIVEl take heed because the "Old Man" Speaketh !!!

01-- his God Given Talent
02-- his work ethic
03-- his coaches from LL thru hs/college--if he has the right situation in minors he MAY make it to the "bigs"
04-- his being in the right place at the right time in front of the right people no matter what the level of competition

Need I go on ?

There are tons of player that have ability and no one knows about them. Good example, a MLB scout was at ACC Game and someone in stands tells him hey there this guy that throws 90 plus on the schools club team.

Likley the 1000 time that year they hear a story like that.

The player came to a tryout camp I ran threw 89-91 mph. Invited him to a pre draft, he threw 89-93 mph. Offered minor contract on the spot. Decideds to transfer to another college , throws 94 mph, Comes to the pre draft again throws well. drafted 16 th rd and got a good bonus. Pitching very well in the midwest league now.


You need talent, but you also need to get seen in order to get signed

I also coached too in a NCAA Collegaite league and did everything possible to help the players get seen by MLB scouts. MLB scouts were all sent schedules, addresses,60 YD times, release times, MPH and stats from colleges, along with weekly stats and MPH times of every game they pitched during the summer.

There were mLB scouts at everyone of our games, despite the frequent 100 degree heat.
1/3 the team has already signed contracts in indy or minor league ball and the number will go up after the draft next week.

Dibble,

There are interesting conversations - and then there are inane - circular logical - carnival conversations.

This one - and most particularly your comments - fit neatly into the latter category IMO.

Post a link to a penguin tossing game or some other fun thing.

I like that stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Dibble:
...The player came to a tryout camp I ran threw 89-91 mph. Invited him to a pre draft, he threw 89-93 mph. Offered minor contract on the spot. Decideds to transfer to another college...

If he was a college player when he came to your 1st "pre-draft", how could he be offered a free agent contract?!?

Your logic fails and, thus, your story collapses as well. NEXT.

here a question ask a MLB scout what would they do if a player showed up uninvited to their pre draft.

If he is worth his salt he lets the kid work out---who knows what can walk thru the gates?????

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
grateful

when a play succeeds it is due to all of a number of factors:

Just to name a few and DRIVEl take heed because the "Old Man" Speaketh !!!

01-- his God Given Talent
02-- his work ethic
03-- his coaches from LL thru hs/college--if he has the right situation in minors he MAY make it to the "bigs"
04-- his being in the right place at the right time in front of the right people no matter what the level of competition

Need I go on ?

TR.....I have been involved in this profession for a few decades......I do know how it works.....the overwhelming reason for a player being given an opportunity at the professional level is because of your first one listed---God-given athletic ability, along with some sport-specific skills.........your number 4, being in the right place to be seen by the right people, is also important.

I have seen several players drafted who have poor work ethic.......several who had inferior coaching........some who had little, if any, self-discipline......of course, most of those types didn't make significant progress.

My question to Dibble was more of one questioning whether or not the 140 players who came to his camp would have been signed without him.....and of course they would, because they were ball players with God-given ability.

TR they have invite only workouts for a reason, Those players have shown enough talent they want to see them more closely by the top level scouts.

Here one for you, what would HS Showcases , (yes TR you can answer this one) do if a player requests an invite and is denied and still shows up demanding to go to a showcase.


TR what is the % of the players that apply to College select showcases that get invites.

grateful

In all probability DRIVEL never had a pre draft showcase much less than 140 draftible players in attendance.

The manis a figment of his own imagination- with a free website loaded with advertisement-- and then there are those can tell you about his phone calls

Ypou and i are on the same page-- I have never questioned you baseball acumen-- don't be so darn "touchie touchie"--this is only a website and nobody knows YOUR NAME!!!!

TR.....I agree that we are on the same page......there are plenty of people on this website who know my name, too!! My whole name is on my profile, in my email address, for the world to see.......but yes, I agree with what you are saying!!

Pre Draft Baseball Showcase
http://www.predraft.com


TR who do you think runs this

DRIVEL

I was going top respond but I have come to the conclusion your arent worth it--I am too old and tired to deal with your inane and childlike personality not to mention your perversion--

quote:

DRIVEL

I was going top respond but I have come to the conclusion your arent worth it--I am too old and tired to deal with your inane and childlike personality not to mention your perversion--

TRhit

TR
why is no college select pre draft showcase?

quote:

TR
why is no college select pre draft showcase?

God you are slow. Read your sentence. Why is no COLLEGE SELECT pre draft showcase? Because it is COLLEGE SELECT you goofus! Geez! Obviously his focus is to get kids into college and not get college or hs kids into the pros. He is not a wannabe pro scout. What a m**** n!

Go ahead and take some shots at me now. I will not respond to your ridiculousness any more.

quote:

Pre Draft Baseball Showcase
http://www.predraft.com


TR who do you think runs this

From the shotty web design, bright red background, stolen picture from another showcase, free web host, and the endless pop-ups, I'd say that you run it Andy.

At least you learned how to redirect a domain name, now work on masking the host name.

You know you can buy web templates for really cheap, about the cost of one registered player.

Gloveman what happen to your bat company and do you much of the hardware stuff on your web site.


Ever see Enron the smartest people in the room movie?

Sorry Gloveman the picture is off the stadium being used. Cool huh

Ya'll are getting way off base (excuse the pun)

CV

quote:

Ya'll are getting way off base (excuse the pun)

CV

I agree! Folks, I apologize if I'm going to act like a Mom once in a while, but hey, at least I admit it right there in my screen name. I won't do it very often, and I hope there won't be much need to!

I love the community that has grown here over the past seven years, and one of my top priorities in administering the site is to help facilitate the continuation of a positive, helpful environment. Debate is fine and we don't all have to "talk pretty", just be respectful, at least most of the time. So as I look at threads like this, I start to look for - well, a common thread - to see what we might do about cleaning up the occasional mess.

Dibble, perhaps you feel you're being picked on, but I suspect there's a reason for it. I've noticed that you're very active in quite a few messy conversations like this. As a mom, it makes me think of the kid on the playground who is often in the middle of a fight, but always thinks someone else started it. Many long term members and old-timers are weighing in here, seeming to feel a need to correct you and keep you in check. I don't know you and I don't personally have anything against you. But I trust and respect the judgment of a bunch of other folks who have posted in this thread. Many of them have shared their names and personal data with all of us and have proven their good intentions and their contributions to the baseball community many times over.

So Dibble, I'm going to ask you personally to just stop and think before you post. If you're making a reasonable effort to contribute positively, then you're welcome to continue. If not, I would ask any concerned moderators to use the Ignore or Delete options. I'm just not in favor of fanning the flame by continuing to argue with one individual who perhaps enjoys the attention. This thread started with an observation about a baseball situation and some interesting opinions back and forth on the matter, but then, as CV said above, it got way off base. Let's go back to talking about baseball!

When my son was 15 yrs old he went to his first pro try out.When he arrived he was told it was a invite only try out and even though he was about 5'7" 130 lbs, The scout told he to go ahead and try out. That try out lead to an invitation to the MASA try out when he was 16, which lead to a position on a scout team,then a college scholarship and he is now playing pro ball. Our family is very grateful to the Brewers scout who allowed him that first opportunity

Mn-Mom,

No need to apologize in any way for being a mom. In fact, some of the best advice I have received on this site has come from the Mom's. You are right-on in your assessment. Here is something I have learned from the hsbbweb - Do not mess with the Moms!!

njbb - Great post! - I love reading that kind of stuff. Congrats to your son!

ClevelandDad ...

quote:

Here is something I have learned from the hsbbweb - Do not mess with the Moms!!

Obviously your MOM taught you well !!!

This is all making me dizzy trying to keep up with Dibbles rantings.

First, the kids didn't belong there. Then, maybe one of them did, because he threw 91 mph... no mention given of command or movement. Then, you're back to them not belonging. Then, you know some unknown kid that went from 88 to 94, and got drafted, that was a diamond in the rough.

You can't have it both ways. I agree with a previous poster... link us up a penguin tossing game, or better yet, try to dig up some more Josh Hamilton dirt... you haven't posted any updates on him in a while.

Not all MLB players are blessed to be 1st round talent. As someone previously noted, Piazza was signed not on talent, but because he was Tommy Lasorda's godson. Marcus Giles was told that he wasn't big enough, and that he wasn't a good enough fielder. Atlanta had a pitcher several years ago that they picked up from an Indy team in exchange for some used balls and bats.

Sometimes, talent shows up where you least expect it. There's plenty of "can't miss" players that never made it, and plenty of "who's that" players that did. If Dibble was half the scout he claims to be, he'd realize that.

By the way, Dibble, are you the same "Ben the Scout" that frequented this board several years ago? I know that you've had several alter egos here, just wondering if that was yet another.

The 91 mph guy had good fastball and no breaking ball. Likley heading to college now you never know someone might draft him.

As far as scouts missing on guys, they do all the time. Pete Rose is a perfect example. Signed for $500 by his uncle. Rose had good batspeed and ran good. His best tools he played very hard always. He got the nickname Charlies Hustle from Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford because he ran 4.1 to home to first on a walk.
Pete Rose and the 2B on the Reds whose job he took were about the only ones who thought Pete Rose was gonna be a MLB player.

The Giants told Whitey Ford, he was too small and did not throw hard enough either.

As far as Josh Hamilton no one heard much about him. MLB scout were blindly by his tools. Had a ton, one problem his make up. Nothing wrong with his head expect, his parents extremely smothered him and he had zero social skills to adjust to minor league life. The dad tried to live through his older brother and get him to hit the majors, but the son quit baseball and joined the army instead. Next up Josh, so what do the parents do when he signed, quit their jobs and follow him every where. Josh then does everything to piss off the parents, drinking, gets 26 tatooes,crashes 3 cars, knocked hooked on steriods and coke.


Kerry Litenburg was traded for 6 dozen bats and 2 dozen baseballs. Kerry rather than whine about not being drafted, went to the Praire League and put up numbers and threw low 90's in an offseason workout with the braves. I bet if he threw 84-85 mph he would not been signed

Dibble,

Just throw up some flying penguins, and give us all a rest.

LOL

DRIVEL

Once again I will ask the question-- where do you get all this "inside info" regarding the inner self of players and parents attitudes and behavior ?

I am beginning to believe you know more about the players than the MLB teams do themselves-- how come they do not hire you ?--it would save them money --one wannabe guy with all the info vs a load of "baseball people" who know their business.

Regarding the original debate. While I too have respect for players who are willing to show up at tryouts, I would not recommend it to young players.

Many events are scheduled tightly and it's extremely difficult to get extra players playing time. Also, information (programs, Scouting material, rosters, etc. are printed ahead of time for most "invite" only events.

However, I do agree that it's always possible you could find that hidden gem. There are many open professional tryouts and other events that are not invite only. I think players should try to attend as many of these as they possibly can.

We don't have many last minute add ons at our events, but we've had a few. We try hard to help them, but sometimes it is very difficult and they have to wait to the end.

One such pitcher, threw at the very end of our World Showcase one year. We had never seen him and most of the scouts had already gone. However there were a few still there and the kid ended up getting drafted the following June by one of those clubs.

TR

They could not afford me, JK.

PG made a very good response. I do remember one player that crashed PG wood bat championship in 2000 his agent demanded a tryout and going into the game. Did not look good either.

DRIVEL

what does jk stand for /// I think I know but please clarify

thanx

TR with a person as brilliant as you are you should know that..


and not john kerry, jk

OK I got it jk = JERK

TR

jk is just kidding

hee hee

could have fooled me

that is pretty easy to do TR

Again I ask --where do you get all this "inside info" ?

What is left of my curious mind would like to know--you always seem to have the inside scoop on things, albeit months after the fact in most cases.

TR
I have Woodward and Bernstein on my payroll

You might have heard of them

the walk up that threw 91 mph was drafted 22 round by the nationals