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2020.2023dad posted:
RJM posted:

The top soccer academies are telling their players (D1 and pro prospects) you will not play for the high school. Maybe there are less soccer coaches who played the game at a high level and know the game than baseball.

I have one soccer player. In our area many of the soccer club coaches didn't go to an american HS with sports. They may have no idea what HS camaraderie is all about and selfishly are just trying to keep their lucrative soccer coach gigs, by controlling the product.   Sadly we've reached a tipping point in baseball where HS programs are just for fun; but since you can't do both at the same time, there's a conflict.  I think state athletic associations should eliminate that restriction but require that pitching logs are kept, but I can see arguments on both sides including prevention of injuries etc. 

My son was recruited by a couple of elite soccer programs. They wanted him to drop all other sports and not play varsity soccer. My son told them he’s a baseball player. He did play varsity soccer and went to an elite goalie camp. 

Last edited by RJM

Son recruited and scouted in the Summer and watched during HS.

They watched his approach, interaction with coaches, officials and players. They even attended his hockey and soccer games.

These guys are looking for atheletes with good character.

He played for a HA Prep School where the fastest pitch was 78 mph.

Play HS Baseball, it'll be an unchecked box if you don't.

 

 

I can't speak for pitcher's but for position players your HS can impact where you play at the next level. Better programs have better track records for feeding into college. It is also more competitive to make the team. Weaker programs Just the opposite.  Hence the rise in spring leagues here in Calif.  At Stanford camp I heard a Pac 12 RC tell the boys that  one of the questions he asks head coaches is how many D1 players the head coach has had come out of his HS. If it has been few or none, then he is less apt to consider a player from that school.  It's thought that weaker schools don't prepare a kid for the D1/D2 levels as well.

Everyone knew my sons wanted to play college ball at any level, and most of the players were on the team just for fun with no aspirations beyond HS ball. Some were surprised that they didn't transfer. My sons were told by more than one  local college coach that anyone going to their HS wouldn't be ready for college baseball, That the good serious players transfer. It didnt stop them, although it did limit their exposure despite being on a recognized travel squad.   They still found college spots. They played for their HS and now one is playing out of state and the other is fighting it out in JUCO. 

Just realize that the better programs have more options but it may be more difficult to make the team and get play time.  It is also who you know and who they know. 

A lot of good advice here.  I'd like to point out that you are only young once. It's great that your son has high aspirations and he wants to improve during the HS season.  However, at some point baseball ends for everyone.  When his son looks at his dad's high school yearbook one day and he isn't in the baseball picture, do you think he will have regrets about that?

Also, consider the flip side. At my son's public high school here in California, the varsity baseball team has nearly 30 players on the roster. 7 players have already committed to colleges and there are AT LEAST 5-6 more that are D1/D2 caliber players. Included in this are 2 very good catchers stuck behind a stud senior D1 committed catcher.  

Last edited by WestCoastPapa
CaCO3Girl posted:

A lot of good advice here.  I'd like to point out that you are only young once. It's great that your son has high aspirations and he wants to improve during the HS season.  However, at some point baseball ends for everyone.  When his son looks at his dad's high school yearbook one day and he isn't in the baseball picture, do you think he will have regrets about that?

Not sure Caco cause we don't waste the $75 to buy the yearbook!!

Can we just be honest?  Nobody cares one way or another.  Even if they would 'prefer' that you play HS ball if a coach thinks you are better than the other kid they will take you.  If not they will take the other kid.  Its that simple.  Now I get that if they think the kid may flunk out or he has a criminal record etc that comes into play.  But this thought that they place such a high value on character...  Ok maybe for their lower end guys.  But if a kid with poor character is throwing 95 he will have no problem getting a deal!!  Besides travel ball as an option is now completely acceptable.  Don't want to  shock anyone but a kid who opts to just play travel ball can be a good character kid too!!!  Its just a choice nothing more nothing less.

RJM posted:
Robrod posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

Need more details

Valid reasons (in my opinion) to not play High School Baseball:

Injury concerns.  Arm getting abused by coach.  Coach not willing to change the arm abuse.

Other than that, unless the Coach is a complete sociopathic criminal, or engaging in overly excessive behavior such as punching players in the face, telling pitchers to intentionally throw at opponent's heads, sexually harassing the player's Mom etc, I'd say go play...

 

Only slight overuse issues... He led the school in innings, pitches, strikouts last year and was pitcher of the year.  I'm not OVERLY concerned.  he's not a pitcher as much as he is a hitter and he's pretty good at telling the coach when he's sore... they listen.


I'd classify the coach as a grumpy old guy.... so what.  He can deal with that. 

I think it's more about the fact that it's not fun to lose and the way it's happening.  He puts a lot on himself.  He feels that he needs to be perfect and if he's perfect they have a chance to complete.  Being good, the coach relies heavily on him to be perfect....   I do think the weight of the team is on his shoulders.  I think this tension makes playing not fun.

I would say that learning to deal with that pressure is a good thing... embrace it.  

Agree?

 

If he can’t handle the weight of the high school team on his shoulders he’s a long way from having the required mental and emotional discipline to compete for playing time at the college level. He should play high school ball just to work through handling the pressure. 

Chances are there will be frustration and pressure at the college level. Everyone can play. Will he be mentally ready when he gets his shot? What happens if he’s hitting .240 and knows if he doesn’t perform better he could end up on the bench? What if he sits then gets one shot to prove himself? Will he be mentally ready?

From having played and watching both kids play it’s the players who have mental disciple who survive college ball. After the first five studs (relative to the level of play) chances are the next thirty are competing for playing time at about thirteen positions. 

It’s an honor to earn the right to play college ball. It’s a challenge to prove you deserve to stay and play.

RJM - This post is so right, and exactly what Ryno is dealing with right now.  His team would now probably be rated 40 - 50 in D-1, and yet, there are so many good players on the team.  There are a lot of good players, and as a result, there is immense pressure on these kids to perform.  They are constantly faced with, "If I don't perform, I may lose my spot."  

Unfortunately, Ryan has lost his, but it will be interesting to see how mentally tough he is.  I believe he is, and I believe that he has handled the demotion well; but only time will tell.

 

2020dad posted:

Can we just be honest?  Nobody cares one way or another.  Even if they would 'prefer' that you play HS ball if a coach thinks you are better than the other kid they will take you.  If not they will take the other kid.  Its that simple.  Now I get that if they think the kid may flunk out or he has a criminal record etc that comes into play.  But this thought that they place such a high value on character...  Ok maybe for their lower end guys.  But if a kid with poor character is throwing 95 he will have no problem getting a deal!!  Besides travel ball as an option is now completely acceptable.  Don't want to  shock anyone but a kid who opts to just play travel ball can be a good character kid too!!!  Its just a choice nothing more nothing less.

I agree somewhat, but let's be honest, there are a lot more guys not throwing 95, than those that do.  Therefore, it does matter for most.  

Is it absolutely essential? No.  In most cases is it the right thing to do? I think Yes.

Last edited by rynoattack

I went back and checked in on a "high level" kid in our area who skipped HS baseball.  He was always on the top travel teams and scout teams and, yes, HS baseball would have been a "step down" in talent.  He "committed" early to a big D1 school.  Never attended.  Ended up at a top JUCO -- for a year.  Then transferred to another JUCO.  Then "committed" to another D1 school.  Not on the spring roster.  The kid is like a nomad -- always searching for the next thing.  HS baseball could have been a good, stable experience for him.  So IMO, take the opportunities you have today because you never know what will happen tomorrow.  

2boydad posted:

I can't speak for pitcher's but for position players your HS can impact where you play at the next level. Better programs have better track records for feeding into college. It is also more competitive to make the team. Weaker programs Just the opposite.  Hence the rise in spring leagues here in Calif.  At Stanford camp I heard a Pac 12 RC tell the boys that  one of the questions he asks head coaches is how many D1 players the head coach has had come out of his HS. If it has been few or none, then he is less apt to consider a player from that school.  It's thought that weaker schools don't prepare a kid for the D1/D2 levels as well.

Everyone knew my sons wanted to play college ball at any level, and most of the players were on the team just for fun with no aspirations beyond HS ball. Some were surprised that they didn't transfer. My sons were told by more than one  local college coach that anyone going to their HS wouldn't be ready for college baseball, That the good serious players transfer. It didnt stop them, although it did limit their exposure despite being on a recognized travel squad.   They still found college spots. They played for their HS and now one is playing out of state and the other is fighting it out in JUCO. 

Just realize that the better programs have more options but it may be more difficult to make the team and get play time.  It is also who you know and who they know. 

I disagree. If you’re a D1 prospect chances are you’re on a quality travel team. You’re seeing plenty of quality competition all summer. You’re seen by a lot more colleges coaches than playing in high school. Chances are you’re quality travel program has better college contacts than the typical high school coach.

Last edited by RJM
2020dad posted:

Can we just be honest?  Nobody cares one way or another.  Even if they would 'prefer' that you play HS ball if a coach thinks you are better than the other kid they will take you.  If not they will take the other kid.  Its that simple.  Now I get that if they think the kid may flunk out or he has a criminal record etc that comes into play.  But this thought that they place such a high value on character...  Ok maybe for their lower end guys.  But if a kid with poor character is throwing 95 he will have no problem getting a deal!!  Besides travel ball as an option is now completely acceptable.  Don't want to  shock anyone but a kid who opts to just play travel ball can be a good character kid too!!!  Its just a choice nothing more nothing less.

If you’re better. But after the top studs the difference between one player and the next couple hundred is minimal. Now the variables come into play. Playing or not playing high school ball is a variable. 

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past.

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money .

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport.

bacdorslider posted:

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity. - I think you have to remove the emotion of being a 5%er from the equation. For an overwhelming majority of  HS players, HS baseball is THE pinnacle of their playing days. Your in HS once in a lifetime. That time should be spent as a high school student, taking in the various activities and getting involved. They will get where they're going soon enough and the ability to overcome adversity, making adjustments will only make them better.

I don't believe HS baseball was any better 30 + years ago. It was probably worse as we were left alone to simply play the game and figure it out without lessons and academies.......and  using the original BBCOR, lol, one piece spun aluminum.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past. - I really think it sends the wrong message. The kids should play the game first for the love of the game. Too much emphasis on "winning the lottery", aka, college scholarships and draft. Those opportunities will come anyway for the upper 5%. 

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  - Sure there is.......work on the mental game by battling through things a player CAN control and not worrying about the things they cannot. If a player can't handle the trials and tribulations of HS ball........college and pro ball will eat them up and spit them out.

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money . - A matter of perspective really. Yes it is for 95% of all HS players.........IF they are playing for the "lottery". Not so much IF it's for the love of the game, the competition and  comradery.

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport. - 30-40 years ago.......the separation was there. The college bound players knew where they were going and in the Spring of their Senior year, draft eligible players knew they were being considered through personal contact and scouts at the fence. Back then they were still fish in a pond..............

MLB has seen the separation differently. COST to play the game, pay to play, pay to stay (listen to ABCA Ep71). When there is concern about exclusion due to cost, you can bet change is coming.

There is a movement in baseball to reach those in the inner cities creating opportunities, creating player scholarships to get the right athletes into baseball. Inner City Urban Youth Academies  just as they have in Latin American countries, an opportunity to play the game for free of charge with the best instructors and facilities money can buy. 

BDS - you got a fine pitcher. Don't sweat the small stuff, enjoy/embrace the now. He will get where he's going regardless of what others do, say or think . Remember there's 95% of HS players that WISH they were going where he's headed.

 

Our former travel organization formed a spring league for players who did not want to  play for could not play for their HS.  Some of those players played a different spring sport for their HS while playing in the spring league for baseball.  Many of those players went on to college ball at all levels. 

Also many very good but not Power or MLB Draft player will get lost in the crowd, so your school does matter.  It can be what separates you from the crowd.  Just as some colleges/graduate schools carry more weight with employers than others, better programs often carry more credibility with college coaches than weaker programs.  And for the position players, there are only so many schools looking for your position. Every school at all levels are looking m for  multiple pitchers and maybe SS  but may at best be looking for only 1 at your position.  Who you play for can make a difference as to wear you go. Friend's son SS PG ranking 8 from very good program goes to D1 Others i know  OF, catcher, corner infield same PG ranking but smaller schools go D3. 

I heard an interesting twist on the "school program matters" theme from a mid-major pitching coach this winter. He said something like (I'm paraphrasing, but this was the gist):

"It's funny, you talk to high school coach in some remote area about a kid, and the kid may be far and away the best player who has ever played there, and the coach will go completely overboard and tell you 'I think he's gonna be drafted' and you want to say to him 'Um, no, he's a marginal D1 talent.' And then you talk to a high school coach in South Florida or California about a kid, and this coach has played in like AA or AAA, and he's had multiple kids drafted, and super high level college players and the coach will be like 'Uh, I'm not too sure about him' and you want to say 'What are you talking about?! He's really good!' We always want to hear what the high school coach says but sometimes they don't have the best perspective."

RJM posted:
2boydad posted:

I can't speak for pitcher's but for position players your HS can impact where you play at the next level. Better programs have better track records for feeding into college. It is also more competitive to make the team. Weaker programs Just the opposite.  Hence the rise in spring leagues here in Calif.  At Stanford camp I heard a Pac 12 RC tell the boys that  one of the questions he asks head coaches is how many D1 players the head coach has had come out of his HS. If it has been few or none, then he is less apt to consider a player from that school.  It's thought that weaker schools don't prepare a kid for the D1/D2 levels as well.

Everyone knew my sons wanted to play college ball at any level, and most of the players were on the team just for fun with no aspirations beyond HS ball. Some were surprised that they didn't transfer. My sons were told by more than one  local college coach that anyone going to their HS wouldn't be ready for college baseball, That the good serious players transfer. It didnt stop them, although it did limit their exposure despite being on a recognized travel squad.   They still found college spots. They played for their HS and now one is playing out of state and the other is fighting it out in JUCO. 

Just realize that the better programs have more options but it may be more difficult to make the team and get play time.  It is also who you know and who they know. 

I disagree. If you’re a D1 prospect chances are you’re on a quality travel team. You’re seeing plenty of quality competition all summer. You’re seen by a lot more colleges coaches than playing in high school. Chances are you’re quality travel program has better college contacts than the typical high school coach.

 Only if the parents can afford it, and sometimes they can’t or think it’s ridiculous to drop 5K on a 10th graders travel ball team.  Are there the hole in the wall teams that play it cheap, yes, but they aren’t well known.

Backpick25 posted:
bacdorslider posted:

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity. - I think you have to remove the emotion of being a 5%er from the equation. For an overwhelming majority of  HS players, HS baseball is THE pinnacle of their playing days. Your in HS once in a lifetime. That time should be spent as a high school student, taking in the various activities and getting involved. They will get where they're going soon enough and the ability to overcome adversity, making adjustments will only make them better.

I don't believe HS baseball was any better 30 + years ago. It was probably worse as we were left alone to simply play the game and figure it out without lessons and academies.......and  using the original BBCOR, lol, one piece spun aluminum.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past. - I really think it sends the wrong message. The kids should play the game first for the love of the game. Too much emphasis on "winning the lottery", aka, college scholarships and draft. Those opportunities will come anyway for the upper 5%. 

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  - Sure there is.......work on the mental game by battling through things a player CAN control and not worrying about the things they cannot. If a player can't handle the trials and tribulations of HS ball........college and pro ball will eat them up and spit them out.

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money . - A matter of perspective really. Yes it is for 95% of all HS players.........IF they are playing for the "lottery". Not so much IF it's for the love of the game, the competition and  comradery.

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport. - 30-40 years ago.......the separation was there. The college bound players knew where they were going and in the Spring of their Senior year, draft eligible players knew they were being considered through personal contact and scouts at the fence. Back then they were still fish in a pond..............

MLB has seen the separation differently. COST to play the game, pay to play, pay to stay (listen to ABCA Ep71). When there is concern about exclusion due to cost, you can bet change is coming.

There is a movement in baseball to reach those in the inner cities creating opportunities, creating player scholarships to get the right athletes into baseball. Inner City Urban Youth Academies  just as they have in Latin American countries, an opportunity to play the game for free of charge with the best instructors and facilities money can buy. 

BDS - you got a fine pitcher. Don't sweat the small stuff, enjoy/embrace the now. He will get where he's going regardless of what others do, say or think . Remember there's 95% of HS players that WISH they were going where he's headed.

 

You know I agree  with a lot of what you posted.  I am beginning to think that my issue is not at all with hs school baseball . My issue is with this particular program that I have been a part of for the past 10 years. That's a long time. 

For instance, last season we had three SEC pitchers, 1 SEC catcher,  1 C-USA pitcher and two juco players going to a Texas juco.  I watched as this team and the players on it got worse as the season went along. The players did not enjoy it at all and could not wait for it to end.  I was  more than concerned about what would happen when these players went to school. 

As it turns out the SEC pitchers are going great, very proud of them. One is starting going deep in games as a freshman. One of the Juco kids was 0-35 last year in high school... now he is hitting .390 and 7 dingers ....I really believe the talent was there, but this coach has a way of killing it for the players.

many times the opposing teams parents will make comments about how flat and down and not really having fun ...and sadly it's true.  Of course these same players thrive in other environments be it travel ball, P5 , JUCO doesn't matter the level or the position once they leave this program they do better.  Last year with all that talent he was barely .500 and lost 12 games by a run.........

 My 2013 was the same way. coach never thought much of him , never really played him, but from summer he went Juco then D1. 

Now I have heard the coaches don't make anything for what they do, and I agree they should make more. Last weeks practice schedule. Friday short practice, sat no practice, sunday no practice, monday he calls off practice, tuesday scrimmage, and was upset about the errors in the scrimmage ( I guess) so has a 6:30 am practice Wednesday.... makes no sense.

Luckily , 2018 does not let it get to him as he is living in the moment.  It bothers him a little at the time but he seems to go over it fairly quickly.  I would be more concerned if it did not bother him at all.

So maybe its not the HS school baseball but rather the high school baseball in my town.

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