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It is tough to come up with a subject line for what ended up being one of the strangest situations I've ever seen.  4A Junior Varsity baseball, league game.

Right handed batter (member of my son's team) takes an inside curve ball.  He is fooled by the pitch, checks his swing.  Checks it very early, but because he's fooled, he can't get out of the way.  The pitch doesn't break much and hits him on the side of the bicep.  PU sends him to first.  Next batter begins to take position in the box.

Opposing coach then comes out of the dugout (3rd base side) to argue the call.  And, I will say that the manner in which he argued was controlled and respectful the entire time. 

Based on body language, the coach was clearly arguing that the batter had offered at the pitch and, therefore, should not have been awarded first base.  The coach was also continuing to point out to the FU, presumably asking the PU to ask for his opinion.  This went on for some time, at least 2 minutes.

Finally, the PU pointed out to the FU and the FU gave the out sign, indicating a strike.  Then, the PU points to the batter runner at 1B and tells him to stay, ignoring the call from the FU.

At this point, the opposing coach is more animated, but I still give him credit for maintaining composure.  He understandably starts questioning the PU why the batter is still at 1B since the FU clearly said strike.  At this point, the PU was sort of done arguing and doesn't really do anything more to clarify the situation.  The coach continued on for another minute or so until the PU finally says, "That's enough, back to the dugout!"  His voice was raised and he was done.

The coach started back to the dugout, stopped, and turned back around.  Again, in a very respectful way he asked the PU one last time to explain why he was ignoring the FU.  (I only point out the respectful part to note that this guy wasn't yelling, screaming, etc.  It may have been disrespectful to continue to argue after he was told to stop.  I get that.  Just setting mood.) At this, PU tosses him from the game and orders him off the field immediately.

Coach leaves the field, just on the other side of the gate.  The assistant then walks onto the field, also in a very well mannered, respectful way.  He proceeds to argue the call for another good 2-3 minutes.  Again, there are gestures of strikes, pointing to the FU, and so on.  

Finally, the PU walks out to the FU.  They huddle for at least 3 minutes.  Then, the PU walks away, points to the batter at 1B and orders him back to the plate.  Then, apparently because the opposing team was ultimately successful in its argument, he reinstates the head coach who he threw out of the game.

And, our coaching staff didn't say a peep at any point before, during, or after this entire episode.

It was one of the most bizarre series of events I've ever seen.  The PU really screwed this up.  If he didn't really know, he should have asked the FU pretty early on.  Instead, he seemed to take a position of "I don't need help, I saw the play." That's a fine position, too,  and I'd expect it to be true in this instance.  But then don't ask the FU if you're not prepared to accept his call.  That's just lunacy.  And, reinstating the guy you threw out because his replacement happened to win the argument is just the cherry on top.

On top of that, it was a terrible call, a terrible procedure by the umps, and our coaches just sort of shrugged it away as if it didn't happen at all.  I wasn't really upset, I was just bewildered.

No question here, just a really interesting situation I wanted to share.  Thanks for indulging me.

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Yea, that was all kinds of wrong.

Plate ump should just have told him from the beginning that he didn't offer. No I don't need to check with my partner. End of discussion. Go back to your dugout coach.

By not owning his call the PU started this snowballing. It would also have been smarter to walk over and talk to his partner rather than using the traditional point. They could have discussed what they saw and placement of the runner rather than making the public display which made the PU look even worse.

Finally, when you are gone you are gone.  He wasn't ejected for being wrong about a call. He was ejected for continuing an argument after he had been told to go back to his dugout. Two separate issues. Being correct in one does not mean you get excused for the other.

Probably should have warned and then ejected the assistant too for continuing the argument.  

"It's only a strike if he swung through. "

Definitely not.  It's only a strike if he offered at the pitch.  One such way to demonstrate a legitimate offer at a pitch is, as you say, to swing through [the strike zone].  However, there are other ways to offer at the pitch without "swinging through."   Similarly, there are situations where the bat does continue on through the zone and there wasn't an offer at the pitch.  

Nobody here is debating the mechanics of check swings, roles of the PU vs FU, and who has the better view.  If that was your takeaway, then I did a poor job of writing or you did a poor job of reading.  This wasn't a story about how to manage your positioning and mechanics to make a good judgement call; this was a story about how to manage an in-game situation from a procedural perspective.

This is a stuff up from the beginning....... First off this should have been covered by the umpires in their pre-game.  My take with my partners on a checked swing is "Don't come to me if you don't want my opinion......Now, if you do come to me, I will give you my answer".

In this situation, the Umpire, if he felt he had the call right, did not have to go to his partner for a ruling........NFHS Rules say that the umpire "may" ask his partner for information. Not "must" or "shall".

But once he does, I have never heard of any Umpire doing what this HPU did. Poorly handled indeed.

In my State, you cant "un-eject "..........I can just imagine the call from the coach to the Umpire association now.     

old_school posted:

quite possibly the stupidest rule in baseball is have to make an attempt to get out of the way...it infuriates people. it puts the umpire in a no win situation and never makes anyone happy. The fact that umpires actually enforce it is as shocking as the rule is stupid.

There is enough "umpire judgment" in most rules already.  Choosing to not enforce rules is not an option. As long as it is in the book, it needs to be addressed when it is appropriate.....

I have always advised Umpires who do not like NFHS rules differences that they probably shouldn't umpire HS ball.   Umpires with personal rules interpretations should find another hobby.........   

67L48 posted:

"It's only a strike if he swung through. "

Definitely not.  It's only a strike if he offered at the pitch.  One such way to demonstrate a legitimate offer at a pitch is, as you say, to swing through [the strike zone].  However, there are other ways to offer at the pitch without "swinging through."   Similarly, there are situations where the bat does continue on through the zone and there wasn't an offer at the pitch.  

Nobody here is debating the mechanics of check swings, roles of the PU vs FU, and who has the better view.  If that was your takeaway, then I did a poor job of writing or you did a poor job of reading.  This wasn't a story about how to manage your positioning and mechanics to make a good judgement call; this was a story about how to manage an in-game situation from a procedural perspective.

Apologies if I was completely off topic...

The actions of the PU is like you said bewildering.  I'm inclined to believe he wasn't even a real umpire, maybe taking the place of his brother or best friend for some laughs.  Maybe he was drunk.  I've had umpires show up drunk before.  Doesn't bother me and makes for a more interesting game as long as there's no arguments and posturing involving a call on a hit batter.  

 

Golfman25 posted:

That's why he's umping JV.  Hopefully he learns from it. 

Golf, JV ump is like the 5th step up in umping here in GA.  I've still seen some super bad zones, but they aren't suppose to be low level umps.  In my opinion it goes:

Rec 6u-8u

Rec 9u-12u

Travel Ball 9u-12u

Travel Ball 13u-15u

HS JV

Travel Ball 15u-18u

HS V

Slightly off topic but the ejection and unejection reminded me of something that happened to me once.  Good game - my LF comes flying in on a sinking flyball and clearly caught it - except to the field up behind the mound.  I come out to ask what he saw and he was going to talk to the plate ump.  I was walking back to my dugout and said no way was that a trap not loud at all.  Boom I get dumped.  Now for some reason I was by myself and didn't have another coach.  Well if I'm gone then the game is over.  The other team's coach comes out and asks if I can stay so we can continue the game.  They restrict me to the dugout and one of my players has to go coach third.  We ended up losing in the bottom of the 7th.  Winning run at third with 0 or 1 out.  I walk the bases loaded, bring an OF in to play IF and my pitcher drills the hitter on the first pitch.  Game over but I got to stay.

piaa_ump posted:
old_school posted:

quite possibly the stupidest rule in baseball is have to make an attempt to get out of the way...it infuriates people. it puts the umpire in a no win situation and never makes anyone happy. The fact that umpires actually enforce it is as shocking as the rule is stupid.

There is enough "umpire judgment" in most rules already.  Choosing to not enforce rules is not an option. As long as it is in the book, it needs to be addressed when it is appropriate.....

I have always advised Umpires who do not like NFHS rules differences that they probably shouldn't umpire HS ball.   Umpires with personal rules interpretations should find another hobby.........   

Well I think we can agree it is a stupid rule based on your comments, so that is a plus.

every umpire out there INTERPRETES what they see and decides what happened...I would INTERPRETE what I saw as a batter who was fooled by the pitch...got frozen....take first base son.

Because I am the UMPIRE and it is my JUDGEMENT!

old_school posted:
piaa_ump posted:
old_school posted:

quite possibly the stupidest rule in baseball is have to make an attempt to get out of the way...it infuriates people. it puts the umpire in a no win situation and never makes anyone happy. The fact that umpires actually enforce it is as shocking as the rule is stupid.

There is enough "umpire judgment" in most rules already.  Choosing to not enforce rules is not an option. As long as it is in the book, it needs to be addressed when it is appropriate.....

I have always advised Umpires who do not like NFHS rules differences that they probably shouldn't umpire HS ball.   Umpires with personal rules interpretations should find another hobby.........   

Well I think we can agree it is a stupid rule based on your comments, so that is a plus.

every umpire out there INTERPRETES what they see and decides what happened...I would INTERPRETE what I saw as a batter who was fooled by the pitch...got frozen....take first base son.

Because I am the UMPIRE and it is my JUDGEMENT!

WE don't agree its a stupid rule. I don't have that luxury.  In the past in NFHS years ago it was a rule that the umpire was to call out any runner that missed a base without an appeal from the defensive team. I did not agree with that rule....to me, in effect the umpire in that specific case, was aiding the defense. I didnt agree with it.............but it was an NFHS rule and I called it.

NFHS writes the rules and offers official interpretations, it is up to the umpire on the field, in real time, at game speed to determine what the application is...........That's why we have umpires and why schools pay us.  And Yes, that's why it comes out as I am the umpire.......and in my judgment, this is the ruling...........

You only have your experience and your training out there to help you. Coaches, Players and Parents may have other opinions but since we are the only ones out there without any interest in who wins or loses,..............only our judgment and ruling counts......

 

 

  

Last edited by piaa_ump

PU if he had the call and he was 100% sure there was no checked swing, thats all he had to say "discussion" over. Then as soon as "The assistant then walks onto the field, also in a very well mannered, respectful way.  He proceeds to argue the call for another good 2-3 minutes.  Again, there are gestures of strikes, pointing to the FU, and so on. " He should not have been allowed to argue and should have also been ejected.  It sounds as though this "discussion" went on for a long period of time, which should not happen. Get the coaches off the field, go to your partner and tell him I am 100% sure I have the correct call or I made a mistake, what did you have. If you are going to change the call, you, the PU makes the corrected call. If you throw a coach out...he is out PERIOD !!! You have to learn from this and review your actions. That is why I teach Cadets to keep a journal, things that went well and things that have gone poorly. Have a discussion with your partner and give good HONEST evalutations of yourself and your partner....REMEMBER YOU ARE THE THIRD TEAM out there.

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