Drafting a NCAA 4th year player signing bonus

Say you have a 6’4 LHP that commands 4 pitches and sits 96-97(Im using this for illustration), he desires to complete his degree in all 4 years, loves college. Why can’t an agent create a “market” for him for the first year draft to get him, not only get him drafted in the 1st round, but first round money? Not a $5,000 signing bonus. In other words, tell all 30 clubs for example, X amount of dollars are required to sign him and the club that needs a power lefty, that is basically MLB ready, he’s gonna need this much to sign with them. What am I missing with the process of drafting a 4th year guy? 

Original Post

Interesting. Thank you for that example. After watching all the games yesterday and seeing all the new amazing college ballparks being built, seeing the effects of how free agency is appearing to be changing, it wouldn’t surprise me to see kids enjoying all four years in college particularly in the Power 5 conferences. 

Free agency has no effect on the draft. Players in the draft are years away from free agency. By the time they’re free agents the current CBO will have expired. If it’s not a decade long CBO two could expire. 

Players lose leverage when they stay in school until senior year. They lose anything to hold out with against signing. Typically when high picks don’t sign after junior year they either believe their stock will rise significantly (more money) or they don’t want to be in that organization. 

RJM posted:

Free agency has no effect on the draft. Players in the draft are years away from free agency. By the time they’re free agents the current CBO will have expired. If it’s not a decade long CBO two could expire. 

Players lose leverage when they stay in school until senior year. They lose anything to hold out with against signing. Typically when high picks don’t sign after junior year they either believe their stock will rise significantly (more money) or they don’t want to be in that organization. 

My broader point is if free agency is changing with such significance where the best of the best very well may never play 10 years in the league, the college degree becomes even more important. Couple that with the new bigger beautiful NCAA stadiums, maybe more players decide to use all their eligibility and agents/front office managements rethink the amateur draft. Already seeing 1st round picks choosing to go to college instead of going pro. Wonder if it’s the beginning of a trend. 

Dirk posted:
RJM posted:

Free agency has no effect on the draft. Players in the draft are years away from free agency. By the time they’re free agents the current CBO will have expired. If it’s not a decade long CBO two could expire. 

Players lose leverage when they stay in school until senior year. They lose anything to hold out with against signing. Typically when high picks don’t sign after junior year they either believe their stock will rise significantly (more money) or they don’t want to be in that organization. 

My broader point is if free agency is changing with such significance where the best of the best very well may never play 10 years in the league, the college degree becomes even more important. Couple that with the new bigger beautiful NCAA stadiums, maybe more players decide to use all their eligibility and agents/front office managements rethink the amateur draft. Already seeing 1st round picks choosing to go to college instead of going pro. Wonder if it’s the beginning of a trend. 

As great as some of the college stadiums are, none of them compare to Fenway, Wrigley, or even the majority of minor league stadiums. These guys are worried about getting signed to a major league organization, not worried about what the free agency landscape will be. Either way, the best of the best being out of the league in 10 years does not have anything to do with free agency.

Players want to get drafted, not stick around and enjoy their 4/5 years. Plus with the MLB scholarship packages, it just isn't happening. When a first rounder turns down money to go to college they are banking on taking their 3 years and moving up higher in the draft for even more money.

I know what you're saying, but older is not better in the baseball world. Rarely are you going to get a guy who is serious about playing baseball professionally turn down money to hang around with his buddies for another year. Don't forget the scholarships are not 100%. A lot of these guys, especially the out of staters, are often paying 60-75% of tuition. If anything I see more guys trying to get in younger than later. 

PABaseball posted:
Dirk posted:
RJM posted:

Free agency has no effect on the draft. Players in the draft are years away from free agency. By the time they’re free agents the current CBO will have expired. If it’s not a decade long CBO two could expire. 

Players lose leverage when they stay in school until senior year. They lose anything to hold out with against signing. Typically when high picks don’t sign after junior year they either believe their stock will rise significantly (more money) or they don’t want to be in that organization. 

My broader point is if free agency is changing with such significance where the best of the best very well may never play 10 years in the league, the college degree becomes even more important. Couple that with the new bigger beautiful NCAA stadiums, maybe more players decide to use all their eligibility and agents/front office managements rethink the amateur draft. Already seeing 1st round picks choosing to go to college instead of going pro. Wonder if it’s the beginning of a trend. 

As great as some of the college stadiums are, none of them compare to Fenway, Wrigley, or even the majority of minor league stadiums. These guys are worried about getting signed to a major league organization, not worried about what the free agency landscape will be. Either way, the best of the best being out of the league in 10 years does not have anything to do with free agency.

Players want to get drafted, not stick around and enjoy their 4/5 years. Plus with the MLB scholarship packages, it just isn't happening. When a first rounder turns down money to go to college they are banking on taking their 3 years and moving up higher in the draft for even more money.

I know what you're saying, but older is not better in the baseball world. Rarely are you going to get a guy who is serious about playing baseball professionally turn down money to hang around with his buddies for another year. Don't forget the scholarships are not 100%. A lot of these guys, especially the out of staters, are often paying 60-75% of tuition. If anything I see more guys trying to get in younger than later. 

You make very valid points. And now that the big leagues are getting even younger, its best you get in the system early. 

Dirk posted:
RJM posted:

Free agency has no effect on the draft. Players in the draft are years away from free agency. By the time they’re free agents the current CBO will have expired. If it’s not a decade long CBO two could expire. 

Players lose leverage when they stay in school until senior year. They lose anything to hold out with against signing. Typically when high picks don’t sign after junior year they either believe their stock will rise significantly (more money) or they don’t want to be in that organization. 

My broader point is if free agency is changing with such significance where the best of the best very well may never play 10 years in the league, the college degree becomes even more important. Couple that with the new bigger beautiful NCAA stadiums, maybe more players decide to use all their eligibility and agents/front office managements rethink the amateur draft. Already seeing 1st round picks choosing to go to college instead of going pro. Wonder if it’s the beginning of a trend. 

A player can always go back to school for a last year. Plus it’s covered by the MLB scholarship program. Some players chip away by taking a class online during the season.

99% of all drafted players never think about free agency but would be glad to play a single day in mlb.

But if you are such a blue chip prospect that you think about free agency when you are drafted you need to make sure you get drafted as young as possible and then move through the minors as fast as possible. I think harper had that in mind when he did his thing. Harper got drafted at 17 and made the majors at 19 and his young free agency age is a significant advantage. Compared to that college players are usually already 30 at free agency which is a disadvantage because teams don't like to sign past age 35 anymore.

The anti harper example would be peter alonso. He is already like 24.5 years old when he makes the majors and almost 32 at free agency. As a corner guy this will hurt his stock and probably relegate him to one or two year deals.

But as I  said this is a longshot for most, only top5 overall picks can think like that, most others won't make it to year 6 in mlb if they make it to mlb at all.

A couple of things.

If the kid thinks he can manipulate the system to suit his own ends as a senior, he should fire his agent. A team will draft him low, keep the rights and the kid will not sign or play. Where does that get him? (Guys have tried this in the recent past to no success - even going so far as to play indy ball. The moral of the story is the dog is MLB and the players are the tail; the tail is simply along for the ride. )

But, all is not lost.

The tippy top senior pitcher(s) will indeed be selected in the first 3 rounds - if he will discount his bonus. BUT the discount is less than a 9th or 10th round senior pick. (E.G., back in 2014 a Maryland senior - Jake Stennet - got 1 mil). These are the mid-90 guys who can also pitch. The next level of senior pitchers get drafted 9th or 10th round and discount about 90% off slot. These guys have demonstrated senior year dominence combined with showing an ability to pitch (i.e., its not all projection); also these guys have some degree of velo (sitting 90 for a LHP). The last level are senior pitchers who had a great senior year AND display a potential MLB tool. These guys simply get a chance to play proball - and if they deserve it, move up.

(if a senior pitcher holds out for slot,  NO TEAM WILL DRAFT HIM ABSENT A PREDRAFT AGREED NUMBER. If a team slot drafts a senior who doesnt sign, someone gets fired.)

Age is the enemy of every proplayer. Decisions flow from that. While there are exceptions, those are extremely rare, and take a 10% success rate, far lower (e.g., Appell).

It is a red flag if a guy isnt willing to sell his soul for his passion - a chance to play proball. Scouts have recounted to me stories of their top draftees who didnt give a hoot for the signing bonus - their thirst for proball was dominating their thoughts and plans. Scouts often refer to huge signing bonuses as "failure bonuses" (their thought is that a first rounder's ultimate career earnings will dwarf the signing bonus). 

So, for that kid who chooses his senior year (not because his junior year offer was perceived as low,  but because he wanted to stay in college) over proball the risk is all his; no team will view him as a savior - because the kid's choice proved proball wasnt his highest priority. No one makes it unless he is all in, all the time,  waking and sleeping,  24/7 365.

"And now that the big leagues are getting even younger, its best you get in the system early."

Age may or may not get younger in MLB but that's not true in the minors. Used to be AA rosters were young players moving up rapidly in the system and AAA rosters were noticeably older. Not really true amymore; many, many AA rosters are full of 25-27 year olds. These guys are good - really good - and have been playing proball for over 5 years. They have learned the game - and, quite simply, the progame is WAY better and different from college.  Only the rarest can rocket through the system - AND stick for any length of time in MLB.

 

Goosegg posted:

A couple of things.

If the kid thinks he can manipulate the system to suit his own ends as a senior, he should fire his agent. A team will draft him low, keep the rights and the kid will not sign or play. Where does that get him? (Guys have tried this in the recent past to no success - even going so far as to play indy ball. The moral of the story is the dog is MLB and the players are the tail; the tail is simply along for the ride. )

But, all is not lost.

The tippy top senior pitcher(s) will indeed be selected in the first 3 rounds - if he will discount his bonus. BUT the discount is less than a 9th or 10th round senior pick. (E.G., back in 2014 a Maryland senior - Jake Stennet - got 1 mil). These are the mid-90 guys who can also pitch. The next level of senior pitchers get drafted 9th or 10th round and discount about 90% off slot. These guys have demonstrated senior year dominence combined with showing an ability to pitch (i.e., its not all projection); also these guys have some degree of velo (sitting 90 for a LHP). The last level are senior pitchers who had a great senior year AND display a potential MLB tool. These guys simply get a chance to play proball - and if they deserve it, move up.

(if a senior pitcher holds out for slot,  NO TEAM WILL DRAFT HIM ABSENT A PREDRAFT AGREED NUMBER. If a team slot drafts a senior who doesnt sign, someone gets fired.)

Age is the enemy of every proplayer. Decisions flow from that. While there are exceptions, those are extremely rare, and take a 10% success rate, far lower (e.g., Appell).

It is a red flag if a guy isnt willing to sell his soul for his passion - a chance to play proball. Scouts have recounted to me stories of their top draftees who didnt give a hoot for the signing bonus - their thirst for proball was dominating their thoughts and plans. Scouts often refer to huge signing bonuses as "failure bonuses" (their thought is that a first rounder's ultimate career earnings will dwarf the signing bonus). 

So, for that kid who chooses his senior year (not because his junior year offer was perceived as low,  but because he wanted to stay in college) over proball the risk is all his; no team will view him as a savior - because the kid's choice proved proball wasnt his highest priority. No one makes it unless he is all in, all the time,  waking and sleeping,  24/7 365.

Really learned a lot from your post. It makes more sense now. I’ve been asked the question how come NCCA football players that are drafted after their fourth year don’t seem to fall in the draft but baseball players do. Your post helps explain that. 

Goosegg posted:

"And now that the big leagues are getting even younger, its best you get in the system early."

Age may or may not get younger in MLB but that's not true in the minors. Used to be AA rosters were young players moving up rapidly in the system and AAA rosters were noticeably older. Not really true amymore; many, many AA rosters are full of 25-27 year olds. These guys are good - really good - and have been playing proball for over 5 years. They have learned the game - and, quite simply, the progame is WAY better and different from college.  Only the rarest can rocket through the system - AND stick for any length of time in MLB.

 

I’ve read in the last couple of weeks that the big leagues have more and more very young guys being brought up. Couple that with where free agency may be going in terms of limiting major free agency of guys like Machado and Harper in their mid twenties, you have to wonder whether the minor leagues are gonna be “churned” more often making for younger MiLB players too. Interesting times. 

You have to devide between org guys and real prospects. Sometimes an org guy makes it to the majors but most of them are there so the prospects have competent teammates.

Many seniors are picked because the are good baseball players who are reasonably polished so they become competent teammates although they don't have the tools for mlb.

You can't just field a team of raw athletes because that would mean terrible baseball and a bad learning experience for the prospects. Ideally you want just good prospects but in reality in later rounds teams have to decide between athletes and players and teams will pick a good mix, some athletes who could turn into players and some steady eddies who can throw strikes and put the ball in play.

Of course those steady eddies still have good tools by college standards but not by pro ball standards. And likewise the athletes still have some baseball ability just not for pro ball (the athlete pitcher will throw 98 and probably will walk 5-6 per 9 innings and the steady eddie pitcher will throw 88-90 with solid command so of course it is not two walks per inning vs 75 mph like in HS).

When I was in college I asked a scout why there were (then) sixty rounds to the draft. He said it was so the top twenty picks, the prospects have teammates. 

I read about five years ago 84% of American MLBers come from the top ten rounds. Another 10% come from rounds 11-20. I’ll bet almost everyone who beats those odds (drafted 21-40) is a late blooming pitcher. 

RJM posted:

When I was in college I asked a scout why there were (then) sixty rounds to the draft. He said it was so the top twenty picks, the prospects have teammates. 

I read about five years ago 84% of American MLBers come from the top ten rounds. Another 94% come from rounds 11-20. I’ll bet almost everyone who beats those odds (drafted 21-40) is a late blooming pitcher. 

Also some corner guys who don't stop hitting (like tyler white).

Dominik85 posted:
RJM posted:

When I was in college I asked a scout why there were (then) sixty rounds to the draft. He said it was so the top twenty picks, the prospects have teammates. 

I read about five years ago 84% of American MLBers come from the top ten rounds. Another 94% come from rounds 11-20. I’ll bet almost everyone who beats those odds (drafted 21-40) is a late blooming pitcher. 

Also some corner guys who don't stop hitting (like tyler white).

It’s why I said “almost wveryone.” Always and never are extremes that can prove you wrong. 

PABASEBALL wrote, "as great as some of the college stadiums are, none of them compare to Fenway, Wrigley, or even the majority of minor league stadiums."

The bolded part of your statement is categorically wrong.  In the SEC all but one or 2 ballparks are nicer than the majority of minor league stadiums and the games are better attended too!  The game environment (and everyday life on an SEC campus) is far better than the minor league equivalent.  Same is true for most ACC schools, top half of Big 12, and for top 2 or 3 schools in AAC & Conference USA.  Its not unusual for an SEC game at LSU, Miss St, or Arkansas to draw close to 10,000 fans. This only happens on a rare occasion in minor league baseball. All of this has a lot to do with why so many of the best HS players in the nation want to play in the SEC, ACC, etc.  The overall experience at these schools is way better than a minor league existence (in every way). 

To add a little color to what Adbono said, when Aaron Nola was drafted out of LSU, he started in the minors in the Florida State League (A+), and then was promoted to the Eastern League (AA). At his first start at Reading -- which draws very well for a minor league team -- the news reports said:

"More than 7,200 people came out to watch Nola’s debut and that just added to the fun for the 21-year-old.

“It felt good to be out there in front of a bigger crowd again,” Nola says. “I had that at LSU a lot of starts. Getting back out in front of a big crowd, good fan base, the Phillies fan base is really good. Got a little bit of adrenaline in me going.”"

Point being, he had to get to AA -- and a AA team with very good attendance -- for it to feel anything like it did at LSU.

I can understand why someone would play his fourth year in college instead of being drafted in the 27th round for a 5k bonus and then play on some obscure rookie ball fields with a bunch of 17 and 18 year olds but the OP mentioned a top prospect who is good enough to get millions at the top of the first round and I just can't imagine such a guy not wanting to cash in and then make it to the show as quick as possible just because of the college experience.

Dominik85 posted:

I can understand why someone would play his fourth year in college instead of being drafted in the 27th round for a 5k bonus and then play on some obscure rookie ball fields with a bunch of 17 and 18 year olds but the OP mentioned a top prospect who is good enough to get millions at the top of the first round and I just can't imagine such a guy not wanting to cash in and then make it to the show as quick as possible just because of the college experience.

I agree. If you’re gonna get drafted in the bottom 20 rounds after your junior year, you have almost no chance of ever making it to the big leagues. May as we’ll finish your degree, continue to improve,  enjoy your last year at your university, particularly if you are playing in front of large Power 5 crowds, and then take a chance your 4th year. May not get drafted, but you had a great career. 

2018 draft round 1-3, I think 5 - 6 picks went unsigned.  1st round had 3 unsigned, don't know the details where they gave up potentially 6 figure bonus.   If you're a SR in the draft, you may get drafted in the top 5 rounds, but expect significantly less bonus $ compared if you were a Jr. in that exact same position.  Even though MLB has the degree program, it is difficult to accomplish.  Difficult to find upper division online classes for major, attending is uncertain since don't know what state you will be in and for how long, and the motivation to study after 6 - 10 hrs of baseball.  Still though, nothing beats getting a degree.

So here’s another take on my question. You have a senior pitcher that is drafted in the 5th round for 5 grand. You have a junior pitcher that is signed in the 17th round for 110 grand. 

Which pitcher gets a second chance if they have a “slow start”. 

"If you’re gonna get drafted in the bottom 20 rounds after your junior year, you have almost no chance of ever making it to the big leagues. May as we’ll finish your degree, continue to improve,  enjoy your last year at your university, particularly if you are playing in front of large Power 5 crowds, and then take a chance your 4th year. May not get drafted, but you had a great career."

This isn't the way it works. Under the CBA, players drafted after slot rounds can receive 100k bonuses (+ whatever slot money, if any, is left) without worrying about penalties. Many juniors (and aged sophomores)  (including most all I know who signed) receive 100k signing bonuses. It's a nice payday - and backed by the MLB scholly (FWIW).

While college ball - especially in baseball powerhouses - has higher visibility and even better facilities, virtually no one playing for those schools is looking to cap off their career in college. In fact, at these schools it is expected  - and planned for scholly purposes - that the kid will leave after junior year. (One notable exception was Indiana's incredible undersized lefty, Joey Denato, who turned down a FA offer of 150k after his junior year to return for a NC run his senior year. He was drafted low in his senior year and received nothing but reached AAA before retiring.) 

You can't get to the show working for a fortune 500 company; you can't get to the show relying on your college major; you can't get to the show without signing an affiliated pro contract. NO D1 POWER CONFERENCE KID WHO RAN THE GAMUT OF TRAVEL BALL, HS BALL, COLLEGE BALL, SUMMER COLLEGIATE BALL WANTS TO "SETTLE" FOR A DEGREE.

When these kids hang up their cleats, they gave their dream everything they had. Each can look in the mirror some ten years hence and NOT wonder "what if." A great college career - to most - does not trump a crappy pro career; all they worked for was a shot.

You also brought up finishing your degree. A couple of things here: is your degree substantial enough in the sense you're not competing in the work market with people with HS degrees PLUS four years of experience (many power conferences implicitly or even explicitly force kids to lower the rigor of their intended major); second, in many D1 colleges, players end their four year eligibility short of credits needed to graduate. (This is the subject of many old threads.)

Some of the stadiums in the low minors are worse than some HS fields. Vermont, Beloit, Bakersfield (vacated last year) suck; but it's a way stop as each kid suffers and either succeeds or fails. BUT YOU CAN'T FAIL IF YOU'RE NOT IN THE GAME.

 

 

adbono posted:

PABASEBALL wrote, "as great as some of the college stadiums are, none of them compare to Fenway, Wrigley, or even the majority of minor league stadiums."

The bolded part of your statement is categorically wrong.  In the SEC all but one or 2 ballparks are nicer than the majority of minor league stadiums and the games are better attended too!  The game environment (and everyday life on an SEC campus) is far better than the minor league equivalent.  Same is true for most ACC schools, top half of Big 12, and for top 2 or 3 schools in AAC & Conference USA.  Its not unusual for an SEC game at LSU, Miss St, or Arkansas to draw close to 10,000 fans. This only happens on a rare occasion in minor league baseball. All of this has a lot to do with why so many of the best HS players in the nation want to play in the SEC, ACC, etc.  The overall experience at these schools is way better than a minor league existence (in every way). 

I phrased it wrong. What I meant was that there are only probably 30 or so NCAA stadiums that surpass minor league stadiums. Once you leave the P5 and top mids spectrum there is a pretty big drop-off. Either way, guys from LSU aren't turning down contracts because they prefer the LSU facilities. 

Goosegg posted:

"If you’re gonna get drafted in the bottom 20 rounds after your junior year, you have almost no chance of ever making it to the big leagues. May as we’ll finish your degree, continue to improve,  enjoy your last year at your university, particularly if you are playing in front of large Power 5 crowds, and then take a chance your 4th year. May not get drafted, but you had a great career."

This isn't the way it works. Under the CBA, players drafted after slot rounds can receive 100k bonuses (+ whatever slot money, if any, is left) without worrying about penalties. Many juniors (and aged sophomores)  (including most all I know who signed) receive 100k signing bonuses. It's a nice payday - and backed by the MLB scholly (FWIW).

While college ball - especially in baseball powerhouses - has higher visibility and even better facilities, virtually no one playing for those schools is looking to cap off their career in college. In fact, at these schools it is expected  - and planned for scholly purposes - that the kid will leave after junior year. (One notable exception was Indiana's incredible undersized lefty, Joey Denato, who turned down a FA offer of 150k after his junior year to return for a NC run his senior year. He was drafted low in his senior year and received nothing but reached AAA before retiring.) 

You can't get to the show working for a fortune 500 company; you can't get to the show relying on your college major; you can't get to the show without signing an affiliated pro contract. NO D1 POWER CONFERENCE KID WHO RAN THE GAMUT OF TRAVEL BALL, HS BALL, COLLEGE BALL, SUMMER COLLEGIATE BALL WANTS TO "SETTLE" FOR A DEGREE.

When these kids hang up their cleats, they gave their dream everything they had. Each can look in the mirror some ten years hence and NOT wonder "what if." A great college career - to most - does not trump a crappy pro career; all they worked for was a shot.

You also brought up finishing your degree. A couple of things here: is your degree substantial enough in the sense you're not competing in the work market with people with HS degrees PLUS four years of experience (many power conferences implicitly or even explicitly force kids to lower the rigor of their intended major); second, in many D1 colleges, players end their four year eligibility short of credits needed to graduate. (This is the subject of many old threads.)

Some of the stadiums in the low minors are worse than some HS fields. Vermont, Beloit, Bakersfield (vacated last year) suck; but it's a way stop as each kid suffers and either succeeds or fails. BUT YOU CAN'T FAIL IF YOU'RE NOT IN THE GAME.

 

 

All very true. It’s nice to be informed of the reality of what lays ahead. Most kids would likely go pro after their third year to fulfil their dream anyway of having their name called. So the conversation is probably moot. And besides, now that Manny just signed for 300 mill, every kid is gonna just right in if and when their number is called lol 

I don't think there are any actual data out there to answer this question, but maybe y'all have anecdotal evidence: 

What do the bulk of drafted players do after they quit MiLB?  As I understand it, a kid who goes to a P5 program 1) isn't pursuing a particularly challenging major; 2) typically leaves without a degree; and 3) often wasn't that focused on the classroom anyhow (so maybe doesn't have a great GPA).  Most drafted players never see the big leagues, others maybe get the proverbial cup of coffee.  I understand the desire to chase the dream and I also get that these guys are still among the best-of-the-best who played the game.  But what is the typical path after baseball for a guy in his mid-20s with some college but no degree and little or no money in the bank?  Even if he got a $100k signing bonus, he probably spent a good portion of that for living expenses during his MiLB years.  I assume some go into coaching, some take jobs that don't require a college degree, some return to school and get their diplomas.  The discipline required to play at that level should translate for some into success in other fields (although we all know guys who will gladly spend hours in the weight room, but aren't that interested in other kinds of work).  What is/are the typical paths? 

I admit part of my question is that I'm concerned most of these guys would be better off long-term using baseball to get into college, then thinking more about a degree than about trying to get drafted.  But I don't really know what the typical trajectories are after someone ends his playing days at the MiLB level.    

I had a cousin that was drafted in a later round after year three with no degree. Sorry to say he was released after an injury, has been in and out of rehab (alcohol and drug) ever since. Not saying this happens a lot, however like anything else there can be a dark side.

A few of my son's ex-teammates after giving up MiLB ended up being cops, real estate, coaches/asst coaches, teachers, private instructors, and law school.  I stressed with my son to use baseball as a way to get a good education at a discounted price.  We thought that way until after his college soph year and speaking to multiple "advisors".  End of Jr year he was drafted and left.  Even if you have the tools and motivation, there are circumstances beyond your control that may prevent you from getting drafted or cutting your career short.  Your degree will come in handy, or at least help as a step to something better.

I played (a long time ago) at a D1 program that is in the top 20 every year. There were 11 seniors in my class. 5 were drafted and signed pro contracts. 2 of those 5 had decent big league careers and all 5 (plus me) got their degrees. So 6 of 11 seniors graduated - either on time or later. The career paths of those 6 men have been : oil executive, HS principal, construction executive, insurance executive, county judge, and MLB regional Scout.  The 5 that didn’t get a degree are all whereabouts unknown. The moral of the story?  All the guys that got their degree have been successful in life, whether they played pro ball or not. All the guys that didn’t get their degree....... not so much. Baseball is over way sooner than life is. You better take care of your academic business along the way! 

adbono posted:

I played (a long time ago) at a D1 program that is in the top 20 every year. There were 11 seniors in my class. 5 were drafted and signed pro contracts. 2 of those 5 had decent big league careers and all 5 (plus me) got their degrees. So 6 of 11 seniors graduated - either on time or later. The career paths of those 6 men have been : oil executive, HS principal, construction executive, insurance executive, county judge, and MLB regional Scout.  The 5 that didn’t get a degree are all whereabouts unknown. The moral of the story?  All the guys that got their degree have been successful in life, whether they played pro ball or not. All the guys that didn’t get their degree....... not so much. Baseball is over way sooner than life is. You better take care of your academic business along the way! 

The circumstance that worries me is a kid leaves after his junior year pursuing his dream(and he should) but lingers in the minor leagues until he’s 27, gets married in the meantime, has a kid or two and then has all this family responsibility and never completes his degree. That’s what I would worry about leaving college in the 25th round after your junior year. I talked to a minor leaguer and he said it’s near impossible to finish your degree while in the minor leagues. I would think I would say to a kid, give yourself 3 years after you get drafted after your junior year. If your not making real strides in the minor leagues, hang em up and go back and finish your degree. Your likely only gonna be 23. You’ll have your degree by the time your 25. 

I think you have two years to complete your degree once you go back to finish it where MLB will pay for it. 

"I would think I would say to a kid, give yourself 3 years after you get drafted after your junior year. If your not making real strides in the minor leagues, hang em up and go back and finish your degree. Your likely only gonna be 23." 

First, in a vacuum I agree with your anaysis. BUT the devil is in the details.

Under this scenario, the club can claw back either all or part of any signing bonus because the draft contracts go (i believe) 5 yrs for college draftees.

Additionally, unless the draft contract is completed the kid can be placed on the "restricted list" which eliminates the MLB scholly program. (Players retiring due to injury and players released have fulfilled their contracts, and can receive the scholly and there is no claw back.)

Also, if a kid taps into the scholly program while playing, i believe his clock on the scholly begins ticking. There are time limits on when the first dollar must be claimed and how long MLB pays; also its taxable income; also doesn't take into account inflation; also reimburses based upon cheapest housing option the school offers; also, if the kid is attending an expensive private college, the contract needs to be clear that's the tuition reimbursement (or it'll be a state school rate). (My memory may not be perfect on the details.) 

Up to college, a kid doesn't need to burn too many future options (maybe missing a bunch of HS social stuff) - especially if he is a good student.  Choosing a particular  college can keep future options - both for proball and ultimate careers - open, or foreclose certain options. But, choosing a procareer does begin to burn some future options. (E.G, I know a kid who graduated Dartmouth with an engineering degree - in around 2010. He's now in AAA (for his third club).  Absent returning to school, his engineering skills have melted away.)

Like many decisions in life, following that elusive dream has 50 year ramifications. Some good; some not. If your kids were like mine, thinking decades into the future just gave them headaches.

 As to returning to school older with baggage, that's going to be a case by case basis. Soldiers do it all the time. I dropped out of college after 2+ years (with 1 year of credits),  stayed out for 5 years and returned with a vengeance. For me, i was ready to learn a bit later and college econ was a breeze. I worked to make the $$$ needed and - for a motivated student - it was very manageable.

 

 

Goosegg posted:

"I would think I would say to a kid, give yourself 3 years after you get drafted after your junior year. If your not making real strides in the minor leagues, hang em up and go back and finish your degree. Your likely only gonna be 23." 

First, in a vacuum I agree with your anaysis. BUT the devil is in the details.

Under this scenario, the club can claw back either all or part of any signing bonus because the draft contracts go (i believe) 5 yrs for college draftees.

Additionally, unless the draft contract is completed the kid can be placed on the "restricted list" which eliminates the MLB scholly program. (Players retiring due to injury and players released have fulfilled their contracts, and can receive the scholly and there is no claw back.)

Also, if a kid taps into the scholly program while playing, i believe his clock on the scholly begins ticking. There are time limits on when the first dollar must be claimed and how long MLB pays; also its taxable income; also doesn't take into account inflation; also reimburses based upon cheapest housing option the school offers; also, if the kid is attending an expensive private college, the contract needs to be clear that's the tuition reimbursement (or it'll be a state school rate). (My memory may not be perfect on the details.) 

Up to college, a kid doesn't need to burn too many future options (maybe missing a bunch of HS social stuff) - especially if he is a good student.  Choosing a particular  college can keep future options - both for proball and ultimate careers - open, or foreclose certain options. But, choosing a procareer does begin to burn some future options. (E.G, I know a kid who graduated Dartmouth with an engineering degree - in around 2010. He's now in AAA (for his third club).  Absent returning to school, his engineering skills have melted away.)

Like many decisions in life, following that elusive dream has 50 year ramifications. Some good; some not. If your kids were like mine, thinking decades into the future just gave them headaches.

 As to returning to school older with baggage, that's going to be a case by case basis. Soldiers do it all the time. I dropped out of college after 2+ years (with 1 year of credits),  stayed out for 5 years and returned with a vengeance. For me, i was ready to learn a bit later and college econ was a breeze. I worked to make the $$$ needed and - for a motivated student - it was very manageable.

 

 

You’ve been very helpful Goose. I have a boy coming up who’s at a JUCO and going to a great baseball school next year. Has pro interest from about 4 teams so far. Youre really helping me help my son make an informed decision,  if and when the time comes. Thanks again. 

I can’t remeber Wally’s board name. He hasn’t been around for years. His youngest is my son’s age. They played together one summer. But this is a former poster’s oldest son. He’s now an analyst for a major bank. He was committed to FSU but signed. He eventually went to Penn.

From “can’t miss” to campus (2014) ...

https://www.thedp.com/article/...banski-embraces-penn

 Baseball and beyond (2017) ...

https://www.baseballandbusines...baseball-and-beyond/

The second article is from a blog called Baseball and Business. The bloggers are former pros (A ball to MLB)  who are now in the business world.

Goosegg posted:

Dirk, you might find this article helpful.

https://www.npr.org/sections/e...o-you-think-they-are

No, it’s true. My nephew graduated from a prestigious university got hired by Facebook to write code after interning with them in college. Quit after three years making nearly a couple hundred a year to go hike the Appalachian Trail among others. I said are you nuts? He said that’s the way it is today, they don’t call it a corporate ladder anymore. They call it a corporate jungle gym. At least in the tech business this is the norm. He’s back at a new tech company. May leave there and go back to Facebook. Then move somewhere else. I guess I’m old. lol

Dirk posted:
Goosegg posted:

Dirk, you might find this article helpful.

https://www.npr.org/sections/e...o-you-think-they-are

No, it’s true. My nephew graduated from a prestigious university got hired by Facebook to write code after interning with them in college. Quit after three years making nearly a couple hundred a year to go hike the Appalachian Trail among others. I said are you nuts? He said that’s the way it is today, they don’t call it a corporate ladder anymore. They call it a corporate jungle gym. At least in the tech business this is the norm. He’s back at a new tech company. May leave there and go back to Facebook. Then move somewhere else. I guess I’m old. lol

I went to work for IBM out of college. I was very successful. But I didn’t fit into the mold. I hated it. When I left my parents reacted like I quit the country club. Three years later IBM purchased the company I left them for. I couldn’t leave fast enough. My parents attitude was I screwed up a second chance at life. After IBM purchased the next company I went to I decided the only way to have control was start a company. This was the 70’s and 80’s. 

I did well financially out of college. But the kids coming out of college into these Silicon Valley companies are making incredible money. But they’re earning it with incredible hours and devotion to the company. Quality high techies are so in demand they can take time off and not worry about finding a new job. 

The other aspect is commitment is now a one way street in the corporate world. It used to be, keep your head down, say “yes” when it’s up, do your job and retire with a pension and a gold watch. Now it’s a 401K and fend for yourself. 

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