E on 1 or 3?

If there is no advance by the baserunners, I wouldn't score anything.

A quick review of the rules didn't lead me to an obvious answer.
10.12 A (8) states "Score and error on a fielder":
(8) whose failure to stop, or try to stop, an accurately thrown ball permits a runner to advance, so long as there was occasion for the throw. If such throw was made to second base, the official scorer shall determine whether it was the duty of the second baseman or the shortstop to stop the ball and shall charge an error to the negligent fielder.

I would argue a back pick is not "occasion for a throw" and this rule doesn't apply, thus E-1. I would say this rule applies to stolen base attempts and "regular" plays on the infield. But it is debateable.

If a baserunner advanced because of the throw, then an error needs to be given. Now the scorekeeper in the pressbox or stands doesn't know a play is on, so he will give the error to the pitcher. Now I'm sure the coach and first baseman (if he feels the error is his) can approach scorekeeper and probably get the error assigned to first. I don't think this would anger the baseball Gods too much, but scoring purists will call this heresy!

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
If there is no advance by the baserunners, I wouldn't score anything.

A quick review of the rules didn't lead me to an obvious answer.
10.12 A (8) states "Score and error on a fielder":
(8) whose failure to stop, or try to stop, an accurately thrown ball permits a runner to advance, so long as there was occasion for the throw. If such throw was made to second base, the official scorer shall determine whether it was the duty of the second baseman or the shortstop to stop the ball and shall charge an error to the negligent fielder.

I would argue a back pick is not "occasion for a throw" and this rule doesn't apply, thus E-1. I would say this rule applies to stolen base attempts and "regular" plays on the infield. But it is debateable.

The logic is fine as far as it goes, but things get trickier the more one reads those pesky rules.

Here’s an example: The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay—such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance—shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play.

If the “pitcher” is changed to “1st baseman” in the next to the last sentence, one could say it would be a pretty good picture of the given example. But the old “so long as there was occasion for the throw” still has to be contended with. From everything I’ve been able to read on the matter, pickoff attempts are not throws that come under the heading of there being an “occasion” for a throw.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
If there is no advance by the baserunners, I wouldn't score anything.

A quick review of the rules didn't lead me to an obvious answer.
10.12 A (8) states "Score and error on a fielder":
(8) whose failure to stop, or try to stop, an accurately thrown ball permits a runner to advance, so long as there was occasion for the throw. If such throw was made to second base, the official scorer shall determine whether it was the duty of the second baseman or the shortstop to stop the ball and shall charge an error to the negligent fielder.

I would argue a back pick is not "occasion for a throw" and this rule doesn't apply, thus E-1. I would say this rule applies to stolen base attempts and "regular" plays on the infield. But it is debateable.

I would say this rule applies more than any of the others in OBR 10. Like I stated earlier, scorekeeper doesn't know a play is on. Charge the Pitcher with an Error and ask the coach after the game, if he agrees or would like it scored with an error on first baseman.

We are really nitpicking this one, Not sure anybody is going to notice or care who gets this error unless there is some sort of errorless streak on the line.

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Originally posted by OK Heat:… We are really nitpicking this one, Not sure anybody is going to notice or care who gets this error unless there is some sort of errorless streak on the line.

Although that’s pretty much the attitude about scorekeeping and HS stats in general, as a looooong time SK and statistician for HS teams, I can tell you that nearly every single mark in a book impacts someone, because its seen as either a positive or a negative by a player, a coach, a reporter, a scout, or more importantly by a parent.

I know that whether or not a fielder is given an error, a runner a stolen base, a pitcher an earned run, or a batter a hit doesn’t mean anything in the great scheme of things, but let me tell you folks who haven’t gotten phone calls or e-mails from parents, there’s almost always somebody who cares! That’s why the best way to approach the problem isn’t to ignore it, but rather to simply have the book kept as much as possible in adherence to the rules, and as consistent as possible.

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:… We are really nitpicking this one, Not sure anybody is going to notice or care who gets this error unless there is some sort of errorless streak on the line.

Although that’s pretty much the attitude about scorekeeping and HS stats in general, as a looooong time SK and statistician for HS teams, I can tell you that nearly every single mark in a book impacts someone, because its seen as either a positive or a negative by a player, a coach, a reporter, a scout, or more importantly by a parent.

I know that whether or not a fielder is given an error, a runner a stolen base, a pitcher an earned run, or a batter a hit doesn’t mean anything in the great scheme of things, but let me tell you folks who haven’t gotten phone calls or e-mails from parents, there’s almost always somebody who cares! That’s why the best way to approach the problem isn’t to ignore it, but rather to simply have the book kept as much as possible in adherence to the rules, and as consistent as possible.

Ok, I'm sorry for my choice of words. I too am a long time scorekeeper. And if you would look at my other posts I take my scorekeeping very serious and adhere to the rules and consider myself very consistent. Every coach I have ever scored for avoids making stats public for the reasons you mention. You and I will never make every player or usually player's parents happy. And there will always be a few that believe that was a hit or that was an error. It's a tough job.

As far as high school stats being looked at by scouts or coaches, My son's college coach could have cared less. He was looking for good mechanics, good grades, asked coach about work ethic, if he gets in trouble, he watched him pitch in games. There are too many coaches out there that pad stats for scouts and coaches. Good players can be found on teams that aren't so good and their stats don't reflect it. Sometimes average or below average pitchers are made to look better by a team that plays great defense and scores a lot of runs.

Believe me, I am a stat nerd. There are very few of my son's college games that are scored correctly, I just keep my own.

Back to my post, My whole point was that SOMEBODY GETS AN ERROR if the runner moved to 2nd because of the throw. In my book it's going to be the pitcher. Now if the coach comes to me after the game and asks who I gave it to and wants me to change it, I'll do it. But I will stand by my statement, that I doubt anybody asks me.
I will retract my statement about nobody caring, obviously we both do.

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
Ok, I'm sorry for my choice of words. I too am a long time scorekeeper. And if you would look at my other posts I take my scorekeeping very serious and adhere to the rules and consider myself very consistent. Every coach I have ever scored for avoids making stats public for the reasons you mention. You and I will never make every player or usually player's parents happy. And there will always be a few that believe that was a hit or that was an error. It's a tough job.

Sorry to break this up, but there are several different things going on and I’d like to address them so there’s no doubt about which I’m speaking to.

I have no doubt about your bona fides as an SK. But to be hones, while every coach you score for won’t make the stats public, every coach I score for has done exactly the opposite because they know there’s absolutely no hanky panky goin’ on in my book because no one but me touches it. But like the main reason is, I have no son, relative, or even neighbor on the teams I score for any longer.

I know it’s a tough job, and I sure wish there were more people who understood it. If there were, we’d get paid like the umpires, and 90% of the things that happen to make HS stats so rancid, would disappear in a puff of smoke. Right now my pay is 2 ‘dogs and a Coke at every home game there’s leftover ‘dogs. I suspect though, that someone in the snack shack makes sure there’s a couple left for my pay call toward the end of the game.

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As far as high school stats being looked at by scouts or coaches, My son's college coach could have cared less. He was looking for good mechanics, good grades, asked coach about work ethic, if he gets in trouble, he watched him pitch in games. There are too many coaches out there that pad stats for scouts and coaches. Good players can be found on teams that aren't so good and their stats don't reflect it. Sometimes average or below average pitchers are made to look better by a team that plays great defense and scores a lot of runs.

Korrectamundo, at least in general. Most college recruiters or scouts couldn’t care less whether Bill is batting .350 or .650, or that Joe has an ERA of 2.56 or 0.30. Its them getting in that ball park that’s the attraction. After that there’s a heap of other things being looked at, the least of which is stats.

Personally, I run the numbers to try to glean information about the game in order to prove/disprove some argument or piece of dogma. I can use them to compare players, but to tell the truth, over the years I’ve kept up my detailed database(7), its very seldom that any team has been even close to the same from one year to the next because of turnovers.

The one exception has been the team I currently score for. They played their 1st V game in 2007 with no seniors, so in 2008 they in essence had the same team come back. But after that, like most HS teams they lose 5-10 players a season.

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Believe me, I am a stat nerd. There are very few of my son's college games that are scored correctly, I just keep my own.

When my boy was playing in college, it was a chore, but I got to score all but a very few of the games since they were all within 120 miles. Believe me, from what I saw, I wouldn’t disagree with you one bit!

If you’re really a stat nerd, you might want to take a look at my web site. Its certainly not the best, but there are darn few HS stats I’ve ever seen that can match it.

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Back to my post, My whole point was that SOMEBODY GETS AN ERROR if the runner moved to 2nd because of the throw. In my book it's going to be the pitcher. Now if the coach comes to me after the game and asks who I gave it to and wants me to change it, I'll do it. But I will stand by my statement, that I doubt anybody asks me.
I will retract my statement about nobody caring, obviously we both do.

Right on! In order for me to change something I put in a book, I have to be convinced that I’m changing it because I was incorrect, not because someone wants a player to look better than he deserves.

Later!