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Just curious:  What (if any) pitch counts are your HS pitchers being limited to in the first games of the season?  My son's team played their first game this week.  I was surprised that he went over 90 pitches and the other team's P threw over 100. It was about 50 degrees and windy at game time--pretty typical weather for this time of year in these parts.  The boy said afterwards that his arm felt fine, but his legs were gassed for the last 10-15 pitches (and he missed high with most of those).  

My kid is a senior and big guy with no history of arm problems.  I don't plan to say a word to the coach and I'm not concerned exactly... but maybe a little uneasy to see that many pitches for the season opener in February. The schedule is such that the boy won't pitch again for a full week (and probably go 90-100 pitches again then--the staff is pretty thin this year). 

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I would say a word.  Last year we limited our son to 65 in February.  This year the coach told him he had to be ready to throw 75 in February, but we wouldn't have gone for more than that. I know of a kid who was throwing 90-100 in February last year and at the end of the season he was hurt.  Probably cost him about a $500K.  It's just not worth it for HS ball.

Last edited by baseballhs

Time out - OK on the surface yes this does seem excessive BUT what have they done in conditioning and preparation?  Have they been throwing bullpens building up to that number?  Have they been running to have strong legs?  Have they prepared to be able to go that many?  If so then it's no big deal.  They are ready.  If they haven't then yeah that's not good at all

Hey Chico, I think it's a red flag but we don't know the whole story.  There should always be a ramping up period if a P hasn't been pitching consistently with the pitch count he is being asked to reach.  We would typically have starters split the first handful of games of the season and that was only after a gradual progression with bullpens and intersquad.  Then, as they built up their count, we would let out more leash.  Some kids come in with their arms built up more than others and some have shorter recovery times so there is variance to where a kid starts in the progression and how gradually each is built up.  Many of our competitors ran their guys out for full games from the start.  I felt we definitely kept kids arms healthier overall and more fresh when we sent them on to college if that was their path.  BTW, the fact that he won't pitch again for a week isn't necessarily helpful.  

That you said his legs were gassed tells me he was not ready for that pitch count.  I have no idea what his bullpen ramp up sessions have consisted of.  The fact that your staff is thin this year and the coach left him in for that long this early is probably another red flag.  You know me - I am NOT a proponent of parents talking to coaches except when safety and health is involved.  But safety and health is involved here.  If i were you, i would want to have a respectful discussion with the coach and ask to understand what his pitch count and days rest guidelines will be with his pitchers.  If it is out of your comfort range for the health of your son's arm, that's the time to speak up.  Then, you have something to expect and to reasonably hold him accountable to.  Better to have that discussion now than find yourself mad and frustrated when he goes well outside of your comfort level during a game and you can't do anything about it.

Last edited by cabbagedad

Your son is older than mine so I have no sage advise.  Although it seems to me this isn't sitting well with you, or you wouldn't be seeking reassurance online?  I will tell you this, last year we let our son pitch waaay too much.  His arm never hurt and he pitched less than they wanted him to (the initial proposed schedule was insane, son handled the conversation, but we were ready to pull him altogether if they didn't ease up a little).  And what for? A few more W's? (for the non-varsity team even!)  If it isn't sitting well with you then it's probably not the best situation.  Maybe talk to your travel coach or he can talk to his future college coach? It's easy to get a myopic view when you're in it, for the HS coaches too.  

Ironically, my son would love to throw 90 pitches once a week (last year's schedule).  They have him as a closer right now and he can't get used to the recovery of pitching a couple of innings every other day.  Arm feels fine, just tired and can't get the ball to move the way it does when he's at his best.

Best of luck to your son this season!  Here's to healthy arms!!!

Thanks to all--I appreciate the perspectives.  I guess I should give some additional info:  

My son goes to a small, private K-12 school, and the baseball coach has known him (and followed his baseball progress) since the boy was 10 or 11 years old.  So both my son and I know the coach well--not trying to paint him as a bad guy. The team has been doing winter workouts since at least early January, and the Ps have been throwing bullpens for a few weeks (maybe 3?).  My son pitched in a scrimmage vs. another HS last week--he threw about 45 pitches, then had four days off before the game this week.

I don't think throwing 90+ pitches was crazy; but I don't think it was a great idea either.  And I don't think the coach planned on so many pitches going in.  My son said the coach asked him if he could go another inning after about 78 pitches.  My son's take on that: "What am I going to say? Of course I told him I could do it." Personally, unless a P is hurt, I wouldn't ever expect him to want to give up the ball.   

I'm at least going to wait and see what happens next week before I say anything.  If my son throws 90+ again, I will probably have a conversation with the coach. The boy is the team's #1, but honestly they are not very good this year.  I believe in playing to win, but there's only so much you should do to try to finish 4th in the conference instead of 5th or 6th.

Chico Escuela posted:

Thanks to all--I appreciate the perspectives.  I guess I should give some additional info:  

My son goes to a small, private K-12 school, and the baseball coach has known him (and followed his baseball progress) since the boy was 10 or 11 years old.  So both my son and I know the coach well--not trying to paint him as a bad guy. The team has been doing winter workouts since at least early January, and the Ps have been throwing bullpens for a few weeks (maybe 3?).  My son pitched in a scrimmage vs. another HS last week--he threw about 45 pitches, then had four days off before the game this week.

I don't think throwing 90+ pitches was crazy; but I don't think it was a great idea either.  And I don't think the coach planned on so many pitches going in.  My son said the coach asked him if he could go another inning after about 78 pitches.  My son's take on that: "What am I going to say? Of course I told him I could do it." Personally, unless a P is hurt, I wouldn't ever expect him to want to give up the ball.   

I'm at least going to wait and see what happens next week before I say anything.  If my son throws 90+ again, I will probably have a conversation with the coach. The boy is the team's #1, but honestly they are not very good this year.  I believe in playing to win, but there's only so much you should do to try to finish 4th in the conference instead of 5th or 6th.

That's good Chico but if he is #1 on a weak team, that will put all the more pressure on the coach to want to roll him out as often and as long as he can.  I think based on what you said that the conversation will be easier because there is a good relationship but I still think it's a good idea to have it and sooner than later.  You have the easy open... "You know my son will never say no to you...but... "    I think you have a very reasonable and correct perspective and you will likely be his strongest protector.  

Last edited by cabbagedad

I would say 90+ pitches in first outing senior year is too high.

This week in a local San Diego game there was a pitcher in his first game that threw 117 pitches(17k's) his first outing against weak opposition. I was horrified. 

Our local HS team this year(son's old school) has basically 1 pitcher who is a beast with the rest of the rotation shaky(or worse) at best. This pitcher was injured all last year with a freak accident -non arm related.

I told Dad :  Based on the rest of the staff the HC will try to over use him.  It is up to the kid to let the HC knows when he needs out. Not the HC to ask him if he has 1 more in him.  Unless it really means something...unless an important game is on the line..or maybe a nono-to  JUST SAY NO  .  It is about the future for this kid.. and others ...like your son. 

You aren't going to win any championships this year.  Why have the kid risk his college future and arm on being overused?   He needs to ramp up gradually.  There is nothing worse than going from 0-60 in pitching. 

good luck , let us know how it works out. 

 

 

My senior RHP threw 85 pitches in his first start this week, went into the 6th inning. I would have preferred to keep it at a bit less than that, but we are playing in warm weather and he's been putting a lot of work into injury prevention and strength training and has been throwing since January. Luckily, Arizona has strict pitch count rules for high school, max 105 for juniors and seniors with prescribed rest. 

Annual topic - and amazing transition from 10 years ago.   At that time the counts that got people commenting ran to 125 and as high as 140/150.  There was great debate about the value of pitch counts at all.

Now folks do not doubt pitch counts but actually start getting alarmed on numbers that weren't even on the board in 2010.  People would have laughed you off the board for hand wringing over 90 pitches.

With all that said - HS pitching is usually pretty shallow and whoever is #1 option is almost always going to get more leash from a HS coach. The tricky part is how receptive coach is to any conversation on player utilization.  I suspect when it comes to arms the door is far more open now than it once was.  Assuming that is so - it would be better for the player to discuss with coach the limits and to do so before games.   

If pitcher says he was gassed for last 15 pitches and was coming up in zone - he may have doubled the stress on his shoulder as mechanics broke down in those last 15 deliveries which if repeated all season may end up badly.

I used to ay then and I say now - that arm should last a lifetime.  No HS glory is worth a life of pain from a fried arm.  Injuries will happen but reasonable precautions regarding over use mitigate against the worst of it.  Almost no HS game is ever remembered by anyone that was not a participant and even then most blend in in as little as 6 months.  Any game that is likely to be remembered will happen at the end of the season and not in the first 2/3 games of the season.  So settle in - be safe and avoid pushing too far and the games will take care of themselves.

I absolutely agree, but almost everything has changed in the last 10 years.  I look at posts from 10 years ago and if someone was sitting 90 in hs it was crazy.  Training, year round baseball, select at 8U, whatever it is, things have changed a lot.  The orthopedic told my son that for kids who throw hard, your arm likely has a finite number of pitches...you have to decide when and where you want to use them.  I don't think 90 the first game is going to ruin a kids arm, but I think it is setting things up for overuse and sadly, there are some coaches who are putting wins above keeping kids' arms healthy.  You sometimes have to be an advocate for your kid, or better, encourage him be the advocate for himself.

Last edited by baseballhs

I agree 90 some pitches in his 1st outing is more likely too many. A decent coach won't mind if you let him know your concerns. 

However, to put a different spin on this topic, I believe this sport gets caught up on pitch count numbers and misses the real issue. If he came into the season prepared, and cruised to 90 pitches then he's probably fine. Just make sure he gets the proper rest. It's a lot different then having back to back to back stressful innings and reaching 90 when you should have been pulled at 50 or so. I've seen this more times than I can recall, and people wonder why the kid can't lift his arm after the game?  

coach2709 posted:

Time out - OK on the surface yes this does seem excessive BUT what have they done in conditioning and preparation?  Have they been throwing bullpens building up to that number?  Have they been running to have strong legs?  Have they prepared to be able to go that many?  If so then it's no big deal.  They are ready.  If they haven't then yeah that's not good at all

Glad you're back!

Son started again Friday night.  5 IP, 9 Ks, 3 H (singles), 3BB, 0 R -- and 92 pitches.  Strongest inning was his last, when he said he felt the best he did all night.  A pretty cold evening--around 40 degrees with the wind chill.  He never lost velo, wasn't missing high near the end of the outing like last time. 

I'm still a little uncomfortable.  Son insists he was throwing more and earlier this winter than I realized and that his arm feels good.  Looks like 90+ every third game is going to be the norm.  No other P on the team has thrown more than ~70 so far, but all have come out because of game situations/performance, rather than pitch count limits.

90+ is way too many. Does your son have an offer or commitment? Are you risking that with the elevated pitch counts?

HS ball is not worth long term issues later. Period

100x Age is the annual guide but I wouldn't expect anyone to go out of the gate and go above 65 for the first few weeks. Not worth the risk in early season. You need time to build and ramp up to those higher pitch counts and loads. 

No fair to your son and his arm to be over used and not fair to expect a kid to say "yeah coach, I should come out". Expect more from the coach, whether you know him or not. I would definitely say something. 

In many years of travel ball, we had limits and it didn't matter what the score what or who we were playing, even for a championship. We pulled kids to protect their arms vs chase $1.95 plastic or a stupid ring.

HS doesn't matter. It's barely palatable, if that, and is just reps to get you ready and keep you healthy for Summer ball. You need to be injury free for summer. Pitching too much too soon, risks summer.  As a senior the situation and timing may be different.

I get the pressure if he's chasing an offer or scholarship as a senior, but typically, you'd know by know if he was going to be playing at the next level. Spots still left D2-3, JUCO and NAIA for a stellar kid.

Scouts told us when we traveled to Marietta for a National Championship.  "If there are twins, of equal baseball ability, separated at birth. One grew up in Ohio and the other grew up in Texas. We will take the kid from Ohio 10 times out of 10. The kid in Ohio had to take a break due to weather. The kid in Texas could play year round and comes to us injured or worn out." Something to think about.  Luckily I've been documenting 1st pitch of season, last pitch of season and break since my son was 9.  We take 2-3 months off at the end of summer and 3-4 months off in Winter. Luckily he also plays basketball, so there is a break and he doesn't pick up a ball early, even for HS tryouts. No sense in eating into his break from fall getting him ready to pitch for a tryout to then not play for another month. We can't play 2 sports at the same time in Texas, or at least at our school. 

We were lucky. He was starting varsity as a freshman so he's a known good. Doesn't hurt this year that he's a junior, and the only D1 commit at our HS.  I said something early when he was a Freshman and the first varsity game, after a few JV games, he went 87 pitches early in the season.  I have no problem pulling him from the team and putting him in regular pitching lessons/sessions if they abuse or over use him.  They take it very easy on him after transition from Basketball. He pitched only 1 inning the first scrimmage week. 2 innings the next. Then 4, then 6 and they pulled him at 82 pitches.  We're a month in and feel way more comfortable with them taking their time on his load. Also helps that GT Pitching Coach called into the HS and reminded them to take it easy.

I wouldn't NOT say something. Again, it's HS. not worth the RISK or small injury that could get worse...  My $.05

Last edited by Eokerholm

Eokerholm, generally I agree with everything you wrote.  And I have been very vigilant about my son's pitch counts since he was 10 years old--he has only had a handful of outings of 90+ pitches in his life prior to this.  But he's 18 now, a senior, already committed (and admitted ED) to a HA D3.  So he's (technically) an adult, playing for a long-time HS coach who has known him since he was in Little League... It's not as clear-cut as it would have been even a year or two ago.  But yeah, I think I probably need to have a conversation with his coach.    

I will disagree to some extent.  My son threw 90 plus pitches almost every outing for four years of high school.  If your son did the work in the off season and conditioning, he should be ready to go.  It is not good for everyone but it is for some.  My son never had arm problems of any kind.  But be cautious.  Arm soreness slow it down.  Again, not every pitcher is the same so no clearcut rules apply to everyone. 

I agree that taking a risk for some HS games may is not worth getting injured.

What I don't agree with is the idea that pitching in HS isn't worth it.

The mindset of pitching for your HS team, more closely resembles pitching in college than pitching for your travel/summer team.

Yes the competition will be better in the summer, but you're mostly worried about going out, throwing a few innings to be seen, and being done.

My 2020 should be ready to go when the season starts to go 75 pitches or so, he'll likely ramp up to 90-100 by mid season. Which I think he's comfortable with based on his off season and ramp us phase.

His team won't be that good this year, but going out there every 5 or so days and being expected to be one of the main contributors and competing will be very beneficial when it comes to getting to school next fall. 

 

Going to agree to disagree with you on this one. My son plays for the nationally ranked East Cobb Astros (#3 per PG) and has stellar competition at every event against other national top talent and way more competition than local High School with one or less good competition.  Even the travel team he played for before EC was also nationally ranked and played better competition more consistently. 

I would say national travel, at that level,  more equates to D1 or other good college ball than local HS. Maybe your high school teams are better than they are in Texas, so Good for you guys. But they are hit or miss here and definitely anemic when it comes to talent and depth compared to travel ball with East Cobb or the other travel team. 

Yes, fun to play for your high school and with friends, for fun, but in our situation, in Texas, D1 offers and looks came from travel ball (summer/fall) and definitely NOT high school.

You guys have a much thicker school density in the upper NE than we do in central Texas, at all levels. So your situation may vary. 

Haha, no our HS teams up here are definitely not better.

Let's use a PG tournament as an example. If you're a pitcher your listed next to the game you're going to pitch in days before, maybe along with 2 other guys. Regardless of situation, you pitch your innings and your done. Outcomes, for the team do not matter for the most part.

HS game, maybe it's against your rival, maybe you're pitching to keep your spot in the rotation, maybe you've just taken a test that you didn't do well on, and you now have to focus....

Yes the talent is better in travel, and that's where you're likely to get recruited, but the above scenario for HS is much closer to college. You need both. I'm just saying don't discount the development that can be done in HS.

 

 

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