I think there is a punch before contact with the wrists (hands). Look back at the frames, the bat is close to the back shoulder at initiation and is driven late into contact with the wrists.
However, I think it is time to junk the top hand/bottom hand arguement. Both hands initiate and both hands rip the barrel through. The delaying of the barrel causes more angular velocity of the barrel. The backwards press of the bat, the punch of the hips put everything in position to accomplish this.
I used to tell my kid to "delay your wrists." This resulted in a swing that did not "cast" but kept things tight until the wrists ripped through last minute. I also taught him the hands were a unit, both initiate and both rip the barrel through. This makes sense in chopping down trees with an ax and also in hitting a baseball.
I also ignore the teaching of wrist roll. If a player follows through, yet hits palm-up/palm-down, the wrists have to roll or break. This doesn't have to be taught.
By the way, the fastest swing is the swing on the inside pitch. The law of conservation of angular motion is demonstrated by the skater that brings his arms in to turn fast on the ice and extends his arms to slow up. Same with hitting. When a player hits and inside pitch, the elbows stay close to the body yet the hitter doesn't get to extension.
Most really long homeruns are pulled or straight away, but mostly pulled. Regardless of where the pitch is contacted delaying the wrists is important -- they are not just along for the ride.
chameleon
I know my terminology is a little rough, and I appreciate you putting it into a more understandable format. Many of the college guys we worked with this summer were so jacked up with their (get the foot down early, swing down, hit grounders the other way, and forcing hands inside the ball) that we saw some dramatic improvement from the hitters who started to buy into what the head coach was saying about where the barrel needs to travel and how it gets there.
Can you go into further detail on "Create the arc. Get the arc in front of the ball." for me and anyone else who is reading here.
quote:The hands, by way of forearm rotation, turn the barrel rather than pulling on the knob by way of lead arm's connection to the lead shoulder's rotation. This latter method is simply bat drag. Waiting for the barrel to come around until the hands/arms change direction is a slow process and drags the bat.
All the good hitters turn the barrel in their hands
at "go". The technique is counter-intuitive, in that they actually send the barrel rearward instead of toward the ball.
I know my terminology is a little rough, and I appreciate you putting it into a more understandable format. Many of the college guys we worked with this summer were so jacked up with their (get the foot down early, swing down, hit grounders the other way, and forcing hands inside the ball) that we saw some dramatic improvement from the hitters who started to buy into what the head coach was saying about where the barrel needs to travel and how it gets there.
Can you go into further detail on "Create the arc. Get the arc in front of the ball." for me and anyone else who is reading here.
This player starts his barrel arc identical on each swing. One of the pitches is up. Two are down. Notice how after the barrel arc is begun, he adjusts the arc for the low pitch.......one of which he hit out of the park.
If you need to, save the clips and play them frame by frame in Quicktime. It is very noticeable.
And...
Check out the arc these Japanese players create. They each are different kinds of hitters....yet they all create the arc....and then move the arc in front of the ball.
Also, notice the upright nature of their spine. This is very important. Not completely upright...but not tilted over either. Athletic leaning toward upright.
quote:The each are different kinds of hitters....yet they all create the arc....and then move the arc in front of the ball.
I get the explanation of create arc, and then move it in front of the ball.
Thanks.
It appears to me that they are all falling away from the ball. Is that not true?quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
This player starts his barrel arc identical on each swing. One of the pitches is up. Two are down. Notice how after the barrel arc is begun, he adjusts the arc for the low pitch.......one of which he hit out of the park.
If you need to, save the clips and play them frame by frame in Quicktime. It is very noticeable.
And...
Check out the arc these Japanese players create. They each are different kinds of hitters....yet they all create the arc....and then move the arc in front of the ball.
Also, notice the upright nature of their spine. This is very important. Not completely upright...but not tilted over either. Athletic leaning toward upright.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
The torquing and untorquing of the handle of the bat between the hands happens well before ball contact......
"The hinge angle of the wrist needs to be held until ball contact......"
Have you explained this to Chameleon???
Nothing BlueDog wrote is inconsistent with what I've said.
I sentence you to video study time.
I sentence you to video study time.
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
I don't like your terminology deemax but I think I hear what you're saying. The part where you said the barrel for a righty goes toward right center (lefty leftcenter) is what clarified your position for me. That is absolutely true and can only be done properly with the hands.
The hands, by way of forearm rotation, turn the barrel rather than pulling on the knob by way of lead arm's connection to the lead shoulder's rotation. This latter method is simply bat drag. Waiting for the barrel to come around until the hands/arms change direction is a slow process and drags the bat.
All the good hitters turn the barrel in their hands at "go". The technique is counter-intuitive, in that they actually send the barrel rearward instead of toward the ball.
Create the arc. Get the arc in front of the ball.
I love your clips! But, you have to get the sweetspot to the ball for the best results, not just the barrel. Take one hitter from the front on all pitches and see if the knob doesn't go toward the ball. I think, if it doesn't then they will not have hit the sweetspot. They will have hit it either up or down the bat.
If you are saying, that through the "jutting" upward of the lead elbow, the hands remain out over the plate, they fight the body's rotation, they fight being pulled out of the zone, they do not take a hard right (lefty batter) or hard left (righty batter) so the already arcing barrel can hit the ball, then we agree. And if you are saying that the hands will take the already arcing barrel to the ball and in so doing will move outside for an outside pitch or pull in for an inside pitch, I agree.
IF, however, you are saying the swing is "powered by" the action (arms and body's rotation) that takes the knob to the ball, I couldn't disagree more.
Power comes from one area (actually two; hips and hands) and adjustments come from another (arms). Combining them is what poor hitters do.
That is why "knob to the ball" is a very dangerous cue. Knob to the ball, to most people means just that...pulling on the knob to take it toward the ball so the barrel comes around like a dog that has out run his leash. That movement combines the "powering of the swing" with the "adustment of the swing". It can not work.
What direction is the first movement of the barrel in each of those clips I posted? Torquing the handle in that direction will be accompanied by elbow lowering. Elbow lowering by itself will not guarantee the proper barrel direction at "go". See the amateur in the Bonds clip.
IF, however, you are saying the swing is "powered by" the action (arms and body's rotation) that takes the knob to the ball, I couldn't disagree more.
Power comes from one area (actually two; hips and hands) and adjustments come from another (arms). Combining them is what poor hitters do.
That is why "knob to the ball" is a very dangerous cue. Knob to the ball, to most people means just that...pulling on the knob to take it toward the ball so the barrel comes around like a dog that has out run his leash. That movement combines the "powering of the swing" with the "adustment of the swing". It can not work.
What direction is the first movement of the barrel in each of those clips I posted? Torquing the handle in that direction will be accompanied by elbow lowering. Elbow lowering by itself will not guarantee the proper barrel direction at "go". See the amateur in the Bonds clip.
quote:That is why "knob to the ball" is a very dangerous cue. Knob to the ball, to most people means just that...pulling on the knob to take it toward the ball so the barrel comes around like a dog that has out run his leash. That movement combines the "powering of the swing" with the "adustment of the swing". It can not work.
While watching college hitters practice this approach (knob to the ball) I noticed "the hard left hand turn by righties." The result was that thier best bolts were pulled foul, and what was put into play was a defecting blow (a slice). The coach that I worked with was big on creating the best angle of attack (In regards to the barells action to and through the ball). This was the opposite of what thier college coaches had taught them (knob to the ball). Im not a fan of the cue "knob to the ball", what do you feel would be a better que in regards to what should happen at go?
how bout you keep the knob inside the ball as your back elbow gets tied to your hip in rotation and your swing plane goes through the ball plane coming in. as your hip stops rotation the bats momentum follows through on extension to meet the would be strike and pounds it to the wall in submission !! if its outside your letting it get back and hit it solid to opposite field your belly button points the way of the ball path. if itd inside you go out after it and turn it in a dead pull homer -jim
(the ramblins of a 15yr old do have some merit
how it's explained and trained is half the battle of gettin it right for you not the masses )
(the ramblins of a 15yr old do have some merit
how it's explained and trained is half the battle of gettin it right for you not the masses )
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
If you are saying, that through the "jutting" upward of the lead elbow, the hands remain out over the plate, they fight the body's rotation, they fight being pulled out of the zone, they do not take a hard right (lefty batter) or hard left (righty batter) so the already arcing barrel can hit the ball, then we agree. And if you are saying that the hands will take the already arcing barrel to the ball and in so doing will move outside for an outside pitch or pull in for an inside pitch, I agree.
IF, however, you are saying the swing is "powered by" the action (arms and body's rotation) that takes the knob to the ball, I couldn't disagree more.
Power comes from one area (actually two; hips and hands) and adjustments come from another (arms). Combining them is what poor hitters do.
That is why "knob to the ball" is a very dangerous cue. Knob to the ball, to most people means just that...pulling on the knob to take it toward the ball so the barrel comes around like a dog that has out run his leash. That movement combines the "powering of the swing" with the "adustment of the swing". It can not work.
What direction is the first movement of the barrel in each of those clips I posted? Torquing the handle in that direction will be accompanied by elbow lowering. Elbow lowering by itself will not guarantee the proper barrel direction at "go". See the amateur in the Bonds clip.
Like I said in one of my earlier posts, it is much easier for me to show someone how to do it than put it in writing. I also said, that Tony Gwynn was taking the knob to the ball and tucking his elbow at the same time, which creates the torque you are talking about. If you have learned a way to teach people to do that by telling them to torque the handle, then your style is successful. Like I also said earlier, for me, it is easier to take what Mr. Gwynn and Mr. Williams said they were trying to do and figure out how to teach someone else to do it. Lord, I think I agree with your first paragraph, but I am very much a hands on learner and teacher. I think we are saying the same thing, but have a different way of saying it. I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does. I think their swings are pretty much the same except for the swing plane. I think if Gwynn would have swung on the same plane (4 degrees upward) as Bonds and Williams he would have hit many more Home Runs, but that's just my opinion. He had incredible torque in his swing, enough to lift his self off the ground in that clip you showed. If you look at Bonds, McGwire, Williams, Aaron, Ruth, even Mays, they all launch from around waist high or lower.
Remember, the hands should be quick and short to the ball. After you make contact if you like to let go with one hand to finish so be it. The important thing is staying loose through the zone and point of contact. "Keep those hands close to the body and straight to the ball"
micmister
Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.
quote:I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.
Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.
If I can figure out how to do it, I will post a video of my son. With the swing I taught him, he hit 3 balls in one game over 360' when he was 14 years old. At the time he weighed 135 pounds and was 5' 6" tall. His 1st game of High School ball (which was in a J.V. game), he hit a ball 380' against a 87 MPH fastball and he still only weighed 145 pounds. You can't do that and not have early and late batspeed at his size.quote:Originally posted by deemax:
micmisterquote:I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.
Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.
They still have to be taught, IMO, to take their energy in the direction of the pitch.quote:Originally posted by deemax:quote:That is why "knob to the ball" is a very dangerous cue. Knob to the ball, to most people means just that...pulling on the knob to take it toward the ball so the barrel comes around like a dog that has out run his leash. That movement combines the "powering of the swing" with the "adustment of the swing". It can not work.
While watching college hitters practice this approach (knob to the ball) I noticed "the hard left hand turn by righties." The result was that thier best bolts were pulled foul, and what was put into play was a defecting blow (a slice). The coach that I worked with was big on creating the best angle of attack (In regards to the barells action to and through the ball). This was the opposite of what thier college coaches had taught them (knob to the ball). Im not a fan of the cue "knob to the ball", what do you feel would be a better que in regards to what should happen at go?
The top hand has to be moving faster than the bottom hand at contact to create power.quote:Originally posted by baseballpapa:
I think there is a punch before contact with the wrists (hands). Look back at the frames, the bat is close to the back shoulder at initiation and is driven late into contact with the wrists.
However, I think it is time to junk the top hand/bottom hand arguement. Both hands initiate and both hands rip the barrel through. The delaying of the barrel causes more angular velocity of the barrel. The backwards press of the bat, the punch of the hips put everything in position to accomplish this.
I used to tell my kid to "delay your wrists." This resulted in a swing that did not "cast" but kept things tight until the wrists ripped through last minute. I also taught him the hands were a unit, both initiate and both rip the barrel through. This makes sense in chopping down trees with an ax and also in hitting a baseball.
I also ignore the teaching of wrist roll. If a player follows through, yet hits palm-up/palm-down, the wrists have to roll or break. This doesn't have to be taught.
By the way, the fastest swing is the swing on the inside pitch. The law of conservation of angular motion is demonstrated by the skater that brings his arms in to turn fast on the ice and extends his arms to slow up. Same with hitting. When a player hits and inside pitch, the elbows stay close to the body yet the hitter doesn't get to extension.
Most really long homeruns are pulled or straight away, but mostly pulled. Regardless of where the pitch is contacted delaying the wrists is important -- they are not just along for the ride.
quote:Originally posted by micmeister:If I can figure out how to do it, I will post a video of my son. With the swing I taught him, he hit 3 balls in one game over 360' when he was 14 years old. At the time he weighed 135 pounds and was 5' 6" tall. His 1st game of High School ball (which was in a J.V. game), he hit a ball 380' against a 87 MPH fastball and he still only weighed 145 pounds. You can't do that and not have early and late batspeed at his size.quote:Originally posted by deemax:
micmisterquote:I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.
Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.
Actually, I'd rather see your swing.....the one like Bonds and Gwynn.
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:quote:Originally posted by micmeister:If I can figure out how to do it, I will post a video of my son. With the swing I taught him, he hit 3 balls in one game over 360' when he was 14 years old. At the time he weighed 135 pounds and was 5' 6" tall. His 1st game of High School ball (which was in a J.V. game), he hit a ball 380' against a 87 MPH fastball and he still only weighed 145 pounds. You can't do that and not have early and late batspeed at his size.quote:Originally posted by deemax:
micmisterquote:I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.
Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.
Actually, I'd rather see your swing.....the one like Bonds and Gwynn.
His is the same, but if you'd rather see me then so be it! Give me a couple of weeks to get through High School playoffs and I'll post it for you. Maybe we can all put our swings on here and let people decide who has the best swing, huh???
quote:Originally posted by micmeister:If I can figure out how to do it, I will post a video of my son. With the swing I taught him, he hit 3 balls in one game over 360' when he was 14 years old. At the time he weighed 135 pounds and was 5' 6" tall. His 1st game of High School ball (which was in a J.V. game), he hit a ball 380' against a 87 MPH fastball and he still only weighed 145 pounds. You can't do that and not have early and late batspeed at his size.quote:Originally posted by deemax:
micmisterquote:I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.
Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.
Not to get off topic, but there is a JV player in Kentucky who throws 87? That must be some kind of varsity team that doesn't need that arm.
