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mmac,

I'm not sure what you mean. Did the doctor say that he hyperextended it or that he overexerted it? Did he just start throwing for the season? Has he ever had this problem before?

I ask because I have been talking to 5 other guys (just this week) who are experiencing similar problems.

Given his age (>16), he could benefit from a conditioning program that strengthened the muscles around his elbow (e.g. iron balls and/or rubber tubing). You might want to buy Tom Seaver's book on pitching. In it he talks at length about his conditioning program.

I also believe that there are a few tweaks that he could make to his mechanics (and that won't hurt his velocity). One is an idea that I call Early Pronation.

I don't want to cross-post, so if you want to hear more about my recommendations, go on over to the Pitching Mechanics forum that I moderate in www.LetsTalkPitching.com (it's free). This morning I'm going to post an article that talks about this at length.

Feel free to e-mail me if you have any more questions.

Hope this helps,

Chris O'Leary
chris@chrisoleary.com
Last edited by Coach Chris
thanks for your answers - he has been using a conditioning program with weighted balls and rubber tubing but dont know yet if it is helping, probably too soon to tell. I will check on your forum later today. I am seeing the Doctor ( he is a sports doctor ) today (for another son with bad knees!) so I will ask him again what to advise. Son is away at school (northeast) and really doesnt start training for another week so hopefully he has time to rest. Thanks
Listen to TR. Mmac said the doctor said it was hyperextended and that he was icing and resting. But then he says he's using weighted balls and tubing? Who told him to do that? The first doctor? If he doesn't like the diagnosis or treatment plan from the doctor, then go to another doctor for another opinion. A kids arm is too important to leave to Coach Chris's armchair pontifications. It's one thing to purport yourself as a pitching instructor, or guru, or anything else, but let's not speculate on injuries and offer that a specific training program or a book will heal an injury.
quote:
Stay away from inexperienced shaman.


This isn't just my idea.

The idea of pronation gained widespread attention as a result of the work of Dr. Mike Marshall (at least). Its effectiveness has also been independently validated by others including Glenn Fleisig and James Andrews.

On page 465 of the paper "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Stephen Lyman PhD, Glenn S. Fleisig PhD, James R. Andrews MD, and E. David Osinski MA., the authors make the following statement...

"In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain."

When the authors talk about the "arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release" they are talking about pronation. The only way to have the arm in this position at the Release Point is to be actively pronating at (and more importantly well before) that moment.

The reason that I use the term Early Pronation is that we have since learned that all pronation is not the same. Tom House and Will Carroll talk a lot about pronation, but as the experience of Mark Prior and many other profession pitchers with elbow problems demonstrates, pronating is not enough.

You have to do it at the right moment (which is while the arm is accelerating, not just at the release point) for pronation to protect the elbow.

If you want to learn more about this, below is a link to an article I wrote that discusses the difference between Early Pronation and Late Pronation...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/essays/pronateearlyandoften.html
quote:
Chris it becomes your idea when you pass it on just like it becomes your bullet when you pull the trigger.


So do you have a problem when Will Carroll and Tom House talk about it?

What's scary is that they don't understand the subtleties involved; that if you don't do it soon enough, it won't have the desired result (but at least also won't have a negative result). It's also scary that they are lulling people into having a false sense of security.
Now you are showing the dilusional part. How can you compare yourself to them and their advice would be see a qualified doctor. That is why House uses a docto (John Gleddies) for the medical issues in his books.
Did you read the ranting I posted on your Marshall thread ? Dosen't he sound similsr to you. The only difference is he followsw Dick Mills.
Coach Chris,

For someone who writes volumes, you have either a reading or comprehension problem here.

The kid has pain in the elbow. He saw a doctor. He doesn't need you and your pronation right now. He needs professionals in the medical profession.

Do you have an M.D. or any medical certifications? EMS training? Candy Striper ever? Beyond that, where have you coached? Did you ever play beyond Little League (or even in LL, if I use that as a measure because I've watched that mess of a video in your yard).

You're a little scary.
quote:
Do you have an M.D. or any medical certifications? EMS training? Candy Striper ever? Beyond that, where have you coached? Did you ever play beyond Little League (or even in LL, if I use that as a measure because I've watched that mess of a video in your yard).


I answer this question (at length) on my web site...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/WhoIAmAndHowIGotHere.html

As I say there, one thing that I believe prepared me to do this type of work was a job (that I held over 3 Summers) working as a paralegal analyzing the medical histories of people who said they had asbestosis (99% didn't). To be able to do this job I first had to understand the physiology of the lungs and the pathology of asbestosis (e.g. Pleural Plaques and Mesothelioma). I analyzed somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 medical histories and in that time our client only lost one verdict (due to a clear-cut case of Mesothelioma).

I never pitched at the professional, college, or even high school levels. I did try out for my college team but ended up having to pull out due to the damage that I did to my shoulder when I was younger (which is a big part of the reason why I care so much about this).

The extent of my early experience pitching was numerous Indian Ball and pickup games during high school and later on in college. However, I am the batting practice coach for my sons' teams, which has forced me to learn to throws strikes and hit certain spots in the zone. I also work with the catchers and throw them balls all over in (and more importantly out of) the strike zone.

I have spent the past 5 years serving as my son's (11U) pitching coaching and the pitching coach of the teams he has played on. My son, who has been taught exclusively by me, was one of the top pitchers on his CYC team (he's a Greg Maddux type location and control pitcher). He has also never had any arm pain (or even soreness).

During my time coaching my son's teams, I have had to deal with pitchers who developed pain as a result of a mechanical flaw (e.g. supinating rather than pronating the wrist as they released the ball).
Last edited by Coach Chris
quote:
And, you just diagnosed it over the internet, issued a change in mechanics without monitoring it in person. How will he know if he is pronating at the right time? If he doesn't do it at the right time, is there a possibility he may cause further damage?


No I didn't. The doctor did. That's also why I asked for the clarification.

That's also why I gave her suggestions, which is what she asked for (and which is what she would get if she talked to Will Carroll and/or read saving the pitcher).

If he doesn't pronate at the right moment, then he will continue to damage his arm as before (but no worse). Pronating at the wrong moment won't hurt him. It just won't help him.
To summarize, you have very little playing experience, you never coached a kid older than 11, you're not a doctor and you researched for a lawyer as a summer job. It's like you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and woke up as Leo Mazzone.

I hope everyone has a good understanding of your background before taking anything you say as good baseball advice. For their safety...
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Now you are showing the dilusional part. How can you compare yourself to them and their advice would be see a qualified doctor.


First of all, it's "de"-lusonal.

Second, if you listen to Will Carroll, he is constantly talking about pronation (which is a good thing).

Do you have a problem when he talks about it?

Here's a recent example of Will Caroll talking about pronation in the context of the Gyroball...

http://letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=287&start=12

Just for the record, the Gyroball makes me nervous. I don't know if there's a safe way to throw it.
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BTW, when you throw BP for the eleven year-olds, what distance do you throw from?


My 11U guys throw from 47'. Since I'm 6'1" I either throw from my knees (less and less often -- it's getting dangerous) or from about 55'. That way the ball comes in on a plane that resembles the path of a ball thrown by a 10 year-old.

If I throw from 47' my release point is too high and the guys have a hard time hitting the ball since it has so much vertical movement.

With my 7U guys I either pitch fast underhand or from my knees (less risk due to softer balls, not necessarily weaker swings).
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deleted by me! This has become a ridiculous thread.


For the record, I never said that I was trying to throw at in-game speed. That would be stupid since I took the video in the middle of the off-season (due to my quirky shoulder I have to be very careful to warm up) and on flat, wet ground.

Instead, I was just trying to show people what the motion looked like.

In fact, I slowed down the first part of my motion a bit so that people could see more clearly what I was doing with my hand.
quote:
Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
To summarize, you have very little playing experience, you never coached a kid older than 11, you're not a doctor and you researched for a lawyer as a summer job. It's like you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and woke up as Leo Mazzone.

I hope everyone has a good understanding of your background before taking anything you say as good baseball advice. For their safety...


I agree 100%. However, mmac did come on asking for advice, and you all know when you ask for advice around here you will get tons of it.

I do also believe that many posters have many agendas. Coach Chris' is for you all to follow him to a website page.
quote:
Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
,..... It's like you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and woke up as Leo Mazzone.
...


lol. Actually in mid Jan, I stayed at a Holiday Inn and listened to Leo the next day. Yes, it was Cherry Hill 05 & 06.

Chris is attempting to share his learned information, which is in some respect, honorable. Chris posting of his pitching video actually does resemble the characteristics of Marshall's teachings. (ie pronate out of glove, linear upper and lower half, pronate throwing arm to plate)

Many could agree (as discussed at several winter clinics over several years), early pronation of the foreman is a part of a Marshall training program. A program requiring 12 months of his arm strengthing and flexibility as recommended by his $3K program just outside of Tampa.

The other side of the debate, like many 'new baseball ideas', is a lack of current professional parent clubs that have adopted the 'pronation' throwing approach as recommended by Marshall.

What many are unable to come to terms with is Marshall just may be ten years ahead of his time....(or behind). I have not heard of any arms from Marshall's program who has a blown elbow.

With that said, something must be done to reduce the number and severity of arm injuries.
Having TJ surgery, as a preventative elective approach, just does not make common sense, even though the success rate of surgery with extensive rehab is increasing. The operative word their is extensive and sucessful rehab (following elbow surgery). Shoulder surgery, however, has not been as sucessful.

Arm injuries occur with the arm is over-used, hyper-extended, over-exerted, and over-extended.

Several believe that baseball players should throw as often as desired (to train their craft) yet efficiently.

When mentors teach players to learn to throw w/o max effort, and pitch with great command and control, they become pitchers which seems to them, as if almost overnight!

Chris, keep up the 'Community of Practice' (CoP)!

OBTW: Marshall has said 'Jobe is a silly man."

Regards
Bear
Last edited by Bear
Coach Chris,
Sorry but in the last few days you have been on a pitching philososphy frenzy with links.

I have read your bio. I am not a pitching coach, and I do beleive strongly (just like everyone else) that proper mechanics is important to staying injury free. That is not NEW news. That is a subject that has been discussed here frequently on the HSBBW and in baseball circles. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that Greg Maddux remained injury free due to his sound pitching mechanics, loose arm and natural throwing ability. It also doesn't take a genius to know that remaining injury free is very difficult in general because most really good young pitchers are not protected by parents and coaches from too much pitching. And their flaws are not corrected early. Pitching year round doesn't help the cause either. BTW, if you read Boyd Nations report of pitcher abuse points you will find that Mark Prior most probably threw too many before he reached pro ball. I can't debate whether his mechanics were a cause of injury, but I could debate his overuse as a young pitcher.
You are entitled to your opinions and your theory.
However, diagnosing why a pitcher has elbow pain on a website and making suggestions without ever seeing the pitcher throw is a no no as far as I am concerned.
I have been a nurse for 33 years and at no time would I ever attempt to diagnose a problem over the internet...I assume the initial MD examined the elbow and offered the treatment of ice and rest in an attempt to alleviate what he considered to be tendonitis...further pain upon movement is indicative of a more serious underlying problem which warrants further investigation by an Orthopedic MD particularly one experienced in the treatment of sports related injuries...but once again I am not the expert...I take my direction from the MD...
Having said all of the above...I have sat behind the back stop of hundreds of games for 14 years now...I have read many an article and book on the semantics of catching..have watched my son take catching lessons for years from the Red Sox catching coach...I, as a nurse, do not expect any non medical person to instruct me on how to start an IV, insert a foley, administer a GT feeding etc but by the same token does the fact that I have watched my son for many years now make me proficent in the semantics of catching...absolutely NOT...I have my profession and would not question a coach in his unless I felt it was blatantly destructive towards my child...Coach Chris, I believe you are suffering from delusions of grandeur... you are a Dad who has coached your sons... a computer whiz... I read your bio....you somehow think, based upon your own admissions, that you are qualified to give advice...not in my book...you are a Dad who coaches and has made himself somewhat knowledgeable in the sport of baseball specifically pitching...you are not qualified to lend advice to anyone especially in the area of elbow pain IMHO
Last edited by catchermom03
Coach Chris

Could you tell us your background that gives you liberty to be dispensing this "info".

Being a "pitching coach" for your young sons tells me nothing--all dads are their sons coaches,

Please enlighten us tou your background and source of your "knowledge"

One other note for all on the internet, especially newbies to sites such as this--do not believe eveything your read--know who the "knowledge" dispenser is and what is credentials are
quote:
I do beleive strongly (just like everyone else) that proper mechanics is important to staying injury free.


The problem is that my study of pitchers and injuries is giving me the sense that some of what people advocate as "proper mechanics" are the very things that are causing injuries.

This isn't just my opinion, others have said it as well. For example, see "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Stephen Lyman PhD, Glenn S. Fleisig PhD, James R. Andrews MD, and E. David Osinski MA. On page 465 of this article, the authors make the following statement...

"In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain."

When the authors talk about the "arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release" they are talking about pronation (and more importantly something that I call Early Pronation). The only way to have the arm in this position at the Release Point is to be actively pronating at (and more importantly well before) that moment.
One thing to keep in mind when reading this paragraph (and article) is that the use of the term "mechanical flaw" is unfortunate (if not a bit misleading). I believe that the authors do not mean that doing these four things will hurt your velocity or control. Instead, I believe that they are just saying that these four things differ from what they believe are ideal mechanics.
Of course, that makes me wonder about the veracity of their model of the ideal pitching motion.
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BTW, if you read Boyd Nations report of pitcher abuse points you will find that Mark Prior most probably threw too many before he reached pro ball.


People much smarter than me, namely Bill James, have pointed out that there are serious problems with the whole logic behind the current formulation of Pitcher Abuse Points (PAPs).

You can see this just by looking at the career pitcher abuse points and seeing who's at the top of the list: Roger Clemens. If Pitcher Abuse Points were preditive of injury, then someone with as long a career as he had wouldn't be at the top of the list.
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diagnosing why a pitcher has elbow pain on a website and making suggestions without ever seeing the pitcher throw is a no no as far as I am concerned.


I didn't diagnose him. The MD did that. If I was only interested in diagnosing him, then I wouldn't have asked for clarification of the MD's diagnosis.

What I'm trying to do is identify the root cause(s) of the problem and then point out ways to keep people from doing those things.
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Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved


This is exactly why and where we differ.

While I am a big believer in the idea that "That which doesn't destroy me makes me stronger", and that suffering can build character, it is our responsibility and our obligation as parents to identify and eliminate unnecessary suffering.
Last edited by Coach Chris
quote:
Could you tell us your background that gives you liberty to be dispensing this "info".


As I said before, I answer this question at length on my web site...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/WhoIAmAndHowIGotHere.html

Since learning about Dr. Mike Marshall's ideas 9 months ago, I been spending pretty much every lunch doing extensive research into the physiology of pitching. That includes reading hundreds of journal articles.

I have also been studying the injury rates of sports like Water Polo, Cricket, Handball, and the javelin.

One thing that I believe prepared me to do this type of work was a job (that I held over 3 Summers) working as a paralegal analyzing the medical histories of people who said they had asbestosis (99% didn't). To be able to do this job I first had to understand the physiology of the lungs and the pathology of asbestosis (e.g. Pleural Plaques and Mesothelioma). I analyzed somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 medical histories and in that time our client only lost one verdict (due to a clear-cut case of Mesothelioma).

During my time coaching my son's teams, I have had to deal with pitchers who developed pain as a result of a mechanical flaw (e.g. supinating rather than pronating the wrist as they released the ball).
My opinion on you is that you have no foundation for your opinions - no medical background, no playing experience, no coaching experience beyond little league. The fact that you like Dr. Marshall's teachings is great - leave them to Marshall! He has years of experience and advanced degrees that correlate with the mechanics of pitching. You don't. That that you can cut and paste pitching sentences and throw out SAT words on a baseball website are your only talents. I just hope that you are well-meaning in this dillusion you have of yourself as a baseball person.
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The fact that you like Dr. Marshall's teachings is great - leave them to Marshall! He has years of experience and advanced degrees that correlate with the mechanics of pitching.


I prefer to think of it as a Kosher Dill-usion.

There are two reasons why I am doing this.

First, Dr. Marshall is not the greatest communicator in the world. He is incredibly smart and knowledgeable and doesn't realize that most people don't share his knowledge. My hope is to try to translate his ideas into a more plain-English form and get them out to a wider audience.

Second, my concern with Dr. Marshall's approach is that it is very much my-way-or-the-highway. I don't think it's realistic to expect people to adopt all of his ideas overnight. Instead, I think it's far more likely that people will first want to experiment with parts of his ideas. What I am trying to do is identify the parts of his ideas that can be incorporated into the traditional pitching motion.
Chris you are a delusonal man. You don't listen to the experts who spend far more time and are far smarter than you. My wife would get along with you . There has never been a doctor who knows what she/he is talking about. She has that medical book that diagnosis every ailment know to man.
I think we have a case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Yes it is you against the world. Like all great men holding on to their vision agaist all those who challenge them.
The truth is Chris that all pitchers are subject to injury even with good mechanics. Good mechanics and proper conditioning help to reduce the risk.
When you read an article you are reading it with a tainted logic based on your rediculous assertions.
Wow, I started quite a discussion here! for what its worth I talked to my son's doctor last night and he said the elbow is hyperextended, not serious. He said therapy, ice and a gradual easing into light exercising of the arm (rubber tubes and weighted balls) would help. My son is seeing the trainer at school, hopefully it will heal soon.
Hit&Run,

I have a degree in Management Science and an MBA, and have never taking a medical course, although I watched ER a couple times, so my advice to you is to bench press 57.5 pounds 2.5 times while stretching your achilles and drinking exactly 6.28 ounces of H2O. Then unplug the computer and the pronation will subside along the keyboard. You should see steam that forms a question mark and hear a voice telling you that you're OK now. I'm making a video of this in my yard, after I rake it.
I cannot believe anyone would give out advice on elbow pain without being an expert in the field.

I just got an email from a coach here in Ontario that has a player that (because bone chips have torn his elbow up so much) may have to get his elbow REPLACED!!! 15 years old and he is he is finished as a ball player.

This is a result of misdiagnosis from whom ever he told that his elbow hurt.

Absolutely tragic...
quote:
I just got an email from a coach here in Ontario that has a player that (because bone chips have torn his elbow up so much) may have to get his elbow REPLACED!!! 15 years old and he is he is finished as a ball player. This is a result of misdiagnosis from whom ever he told that his elbow hurt. Absolutely tragic...


I agree it's tragic. Unfortunately, it also reflects that lack of knowledge that exists among both coaches and MDs about what to do to prevent these injuries.

Elbow chips are caused by bones slamming together. In this case, while you can't know exactly what happened without knowing where the bone chips were found, the most likely cause of the problem is the tip of the Olecranon (the elbow end of the Ulna bone) slamming into its fossa in the Humerus (upper arm bone).

- Illustration of the Ulna

This is generally caused by the rapid extension of the elbow that occurs as the pitching arm is accelerated. As the rate at which the shoulders turn starts to decrease, the pitching forearm rapidly flies out 90 or more degrees. Unfortunately, the rate at which the forearm flies out can exceed what the muscles of the arm (especially the Brachialis) can handle, which causes the bones to slam together as the elbow extends to the limit of its stops (and sometimes beyond in which case you get a hyperextension). This can be worsened if the forearm is supinated at the moment the elbow reaches the limit of its extension.
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quote:
I talked to my son's doctor last night and he said the elbow is hyperextended, not serious.


Did the hyperextension happen when throwing or was it due to something unrelated (e.g. a fall)? If the hyperextension was related to throwing, then it could reveal a problem with the underlying ligaments (e.g. looming need for Tommy John surgery).

With any hyperextension injury you have to be careful because some damage could have been done to the ligaments (whose primary purpose is to maintain the integrity of joints and prevent hyperextensions from happening). This a big deal because, unlike muscles which the body can repair in days, it can take the body months or even years to fix ligaments and tendons.

Sometimes the only thing that works is to shut the player down for the year.
Last edited by Coach Chris
What part of the elbow is in pain and in what part of the throwing motion does it hurt? It could be forearm tightness or inflammation of the ulnar ligament. Running and cardio will promote more blood flowing to that region of the body due to longer raised heartrate level. A rice bucket exercise program would be a good idea, possibly. Take a normal size bucket from Home Depot or wherever and fill it about 75% with rice....put a baseball in the bucket, grip the ball and go through light pitching motions with the wrist and forearm. Take the ball out and dig the fingers in trying to get to the bottom...opening and closing the hand. Proper warming up and stretching prior to throwing workouts is something I'd suggest as well. Hope that gives you some help...anything else, post back to me. Thanks
I completely understand what you say. I also understand that what you say usually does not match the situation being discussed.

It's easy to judge someone who lacks every possible qualification to give summaries, prescriptions and evaluations. If I hear someone's hurt, I recommend seeing a doctor, because I lack the education in that area to offer medical advice or rehabilitation treatment.

I read these boards to learn and sometimes chime in. Most people here are generous and knowledgable. You are the anthisis of the majority here.

I just want people to know that you lack the background to purport yourself as a pitching coach. You try and mislead with cuts and pastes and SAT words. Lunch hours on the internet cannot replace real education and experience, of which you have neither in the baseball arena.

Just my opinion on you. And I'm not alone.
My son had an inflamed Ulnar and there was no pain. He said the elbow felt tight but didn't hurt. Took him to the doctor who is a specialist on pitchers. He checked the elow for damage and said it was in geat shape. Told him to keep throwing. The tightness dissapeared in a week or 2.
The stiffness was causing him to throw differently but once he knew it would be fine he was back to form.
Injury was a result of his arm cooling down on a freezing day after his team went on an offensive rampage in the 4th inning.
Chris anyone can read articles and delude themselves into believing they understand everything and therefore they are competent to give advice on pitching.
I am not sure if you are the researcher or the lab rat. You definitly should stay in the lab.
quote:
Your deception is that you are unqualified to present the information as you do.


By definition, how can I be unqualified to present the information if it's not wrong? If what I say is correct?

Isn't the best test of whether someone is qualified (or not) to discuss something whether they're right (or not)?

Not having a degree and/or formal training doesn't make what someone says wrong any more than having a degree and/or formal training makes it right.

It all comes down to whether what they say is correct (or not).
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The truth is Chris that all pitchers are subject to injury even with good mechanics. Good mechanics and proper conditioning help to reduce the risk.


100% agree..... That's why looking for pitchers with injuries, then trying to find a specific cause in mechanics is guesswork.Players get hurt in many ways...many of which do not relate to some mechanical flaw (Some do). Ken Griffey Jr.keeps pulling/tearing his hamstring....does not mean he needs advice on how to run. He may have made one mis-step that he is still paying for. Same with pitchers....they make make one individual movement (could be on the field, could be in the shower ?) that injures them that no amount of clip searching will ever identify.

I've been coaching youth baseball for years...Never had, or seen, one longterm arm injury. That does not mean we don't have an occasional tired arm. What do we do with it? REST IT. I have seen a correlation between sore arms and when the other team's best hitter is coming up with guys on base... maybe we should get rid of him? Big Grin
Last edited by troy99
WOW! How did I miss all the fun on this thread today duel

Glad the poster's son that predicated the thread is OK!

For whatever its worth, pain is a sign like the dummy lamps in your car, go get it checked out, could be nothing, could be something to address right away. It's great to get advice from friends and the like, but something as important as your son's elbow or rotator cuff should be diagnosed by a MD, just my opinion.
quote:
i have an elbow problem as well it's not that serious when i shadow pitch i feel a tingle in the middle of my elbow not the back the front ot the elbow, this maybe because i also play basket ball and in basetball while shooting you do have to push hard with your elbow it does not hurt just tingles, any thoughts?


Have you seen a doctor? If not you should.

How old are you?

It sounds like you could be irritating one of the nerves that runs through the elbow.
I would saty clear of weighted baseballs.

They do not help performance and can place a great deal of strain on the shoulder and elbow joint.

They will certainly change mechanics, obviously the last thing anybody wants.

Hard to comment specifically on your son's elbow without seeing it and speaking with his doc, but I can tell you weighted baseballs are an injury waiting to happen.

I don't care what the marketing says.
Upper back muscles and forearms/elbows are closely related.

Typically when the forearms ar engaged the uppwer backis as well.

Try this right now...stick your hand straight out in front of you with a closed fist. Now slowly open and close your hand..try tp open as wide as possible. If you pay close attention you will feel the upper back muscles of the same side working slightly.

So the PT had his do upper back muscles to help the rehab of the entire chain.
Jon Doyle:

quote:
I would saty clear of weighted baseballs.

They do not help performance and can place a great deal of strain on the shoulder and elbow joint.


_______________________

In terms of the potential problems you note, is there any difference between throwing a weighted baseball and throwing a regular baseball while wearing one of those weighted gloves on your throwing hand (the kind you insert small lead weights into)?

Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Chris:
quote:
Upper back muscles and forearms/elbows are closely related.


Well...

Yes, the Long Head Of The Biceps Tendon does insert into the upper arm.

Chris please stop with the anatomy observations, your wrong again. Although the longhead of the biceps tendon does have a connection close to the upper arm unfortunatly being close is not good enough, two actually its insertion point is in the radias bone of the forearm. It originates from the supragleniod tubercle of the scapula. It also has a superior/posterior connection to the glenoid labrum. It does course over the head of the humerus on its way to its insertion point. at least you were close huh!

However, the muscles of the upper back are used to decelerate the arm. Elbow injuries occur while the arm is accelerating, not while it is decelerating.
quote:
Chris please stop with the anatomy observations, your wrong again...It does course over the head of the humerus on its way to its insertion point. at least you were close huh!


If you want to get technical, here is the anatomy...

- Biceps Muscle - Gray's Anatomy

The point is that, while the biceps does insert into the elbow and shoulder/upper arm structure, it is rarely involved in elbow problems. More often, when it comes to a muscle problem in the elbow, it's at the attachment of the Brachialis at the Coronoid Process.

All of this is only superficially related to the back (via the scapula).
Last edited by Coach Chris
The long head of the biceps attachment point is the supraglenoid tubercle of the scapula. Its distal insertion is in the forearm to the radis bone. it travels though the capsule of the shoulder it is held in place by the humeral ligament. If the ligament becomes lax the biceps tendon can pull/tear/fray off the labrum which is the surrounding tissue that deepens the socket. These are the injuries such a slap lesion or bankart lesions/bucket handle tears. The real point is the longhead of the biceps attache at the supraglenoid tubercle of the scapula and its distal insertion point is the radias. your referring to the short head and it is the coracoid process of the scapula
Last edited by polishpride
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Chris:
Yes, but this wouldn't manifest itself as elbow pain.


When did I say it would or did?. My post was one that corrected your statement about the long head of the biceps tendon inserting in the upper arm. When in truth both were wrong insertion points are distal attachment point are proximal. The attachment point of the long head of the biceps is not in the upper arm bone its in the scapula. that was all my post was designed for I didnt say anything about the elbow.

You preach this or that mostly based on M&M's philosophies. You claim to find a need to blend the two together for whatever reasons, one being injury. You cannot support any of your "notions" with real research. You fail to produce a replica of your desired mechanics. You may like one or two things that a high level pitcher does BUT you "theorize" you have a better way. You look at a series of still pics from not different games mind you but different seasons. You string them up for your expert analysis with no way of having a clue as to the timeframes involed. Yet from this you never fail to notice a "potential" career ending injury just waiting to happen. If the pitcher has been injured in the past, heck your the real real expert then. When in truth you dont have a clue as to what caused the guys injury other than pitching, there is no proof to anything you say. Digressing yet again in my opinion you have not the slightest idea of just how much power/energy it takes to be a high level pitcher. Not to mention how the body works best at acheiving it. Your so hung up on nonproven theories that may or may not have merit that you cannot see the forest through the trees.
quote:
You cannot support any of your "notions" with real research.


Yes I can. See "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Stephen Lyman PhD, Glenn S. Fleisig PhD, James R. Andrews MD, and E. David Osinski MA. On page 465 of this article, the authors make the following statement...

"In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain."

When the authors talk about the "arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release" they are talking about pronation (and more importantly something that I call Early Pronation). The only way to have the arm in this position at the Release Point is to be actively pronating at (and more importantly well before) that moment.
One thing to keep in mind when reading this paragraph (and article) is that the use of the term "mechanical flaw" is unfortunate (if not a bit misleading). I believe that the authors do not mean that doing these four things will hurt your velocity or control. Instead, I believe that they are just saying that these four things differ from what they believe are ideal mechanics.
Of course, that makes me wonder about the veracity of their model of the ideal pitching motion.


quote:
You fail to produce a replica of your desired mechanics.


Dr. Marshall is working on that as we speak. Once the ground dries up (and it stays light longer), I'll start posting some clips myself.


quote:
You look at a series of still pics from not different games mind you but different seasons. You string them up for your expert analysis with no way of having a clue as to the timeframes involed.


I'm doing the best I can given my limited resources (and have never said otherwise). I like the resolution I get by stitching together still photos and also like that I get the equivalent of several hundred frame per second photography. Finally, I correlate my sequencing with what I see in videos.

When it comes to injury diagnosis, the timeframes involved aren't nearly as important as the orientations of the parts of the body at critical moments.

I would appreciate the assistance of anyone who can get me access to the photographer's wells of major league ballparks.


quote:
Yet from this you never fail to notice a "potential" career ending injury just waiting to happen.


That's overstating things. I do think that every major leaguer is vulnerable to injury, but I think that some major leaguers (e.g. Freddy Garcia and Zach Duke) are less vulnerable to injury while others are more vulnerable to injury (e.g. Mark Prior).

I would never say, as Dr. Marshall says, that every major leaguer will injure themselves.


quote:
If the pitcher has been injured in the past, heck your the real real expert then. When in truth you dont have a clue as to what caused the guys injury other than pitching, there is no proof to anything you say.


No, I don't have proof but I do have some theories. I'm trying to test those theories by making predictions and sitting back and seeing what happens. That's the way science works.
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Chris:
quote:
You cannot support any of your "notions" with real research.
Why did you leave my quote out in correcting your mistatement about the longhead of the biceps tendon Chris. again Do NOT talk about things in which you dont have the slightest idea other than reading a few articles. your dangerous!

Yes I can. See "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Stephen Lyman PhD, Glenn S. Fleisig PhD, James R. Andrews MD, and E. David Osinski MA. On page 465 of this article, the authors make the following statement...

"In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain."

When the authors talk about the "arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release" they are talking about pronation (and more importantly something that I call Early Pronation). The only way to have the arm in this position at the Release Point is to be actively pronating at (and more importantly well before) that moment.

More of Chris Olearys conjecture of what he THINKS they are saying. The word pronation was never even mentioned. Your lost Chris give it. Go play pitchig guru with somebody else. Im going to be watching everything you post becasue your a person who could seriously lead people down the wrong path.
One thing to keep in mind when reading this paragraph (and article) is that the use of the term "mechanical flaw" is unfortunate (if not a bit misleading). I believe that the authors do not mean that doing these four things will hurt your velocity or control. Instead, I believe that they are just saying that these four things differ from what they believe are ideal mechanics.
Of course, that makes me wonder about the veracity of their model of the ideal pitching motion.

More conjecture out of you Chris. why read between the lines. When the bottom line is this quote from the article "in the current study we were UNABLE to demonstrate a relationship between improper pitching mechanics and elbow and shoulder pain in young pitchers". Once again ole Chris Oleary knows better. He thinks he knows what they actually mean when they say one thing or another. They are flaws in the delivery, flaws that inhibit performance. The fact that they WEAKLY [the word you somehow forgot] correlate with less stress to elbow/shoulder is again moot. Once again Chris you are way in over your head. You read between the lines in hopes that you may come up with a supporting fact that is just not there. Get a clue chris the whole premise of the article was basically about pitch counts and overuse as well as types of pitches thrown.


quote:
You fail to produce a replica of your desired mechanics.


Dr. Marshall is working on that as we speak. Once the ground dries up (and it stays light longer), I'll start posting some clips myself.


quote:
You look at a series of still pics from not different games mind you but different seasons. You string them up for your expert analysis with no way of having a clue as to the timeframes involed.


I'm doing the best I can given my limited resources (and have never said otherwise). I like the resolution I get by stitching together still photos and also like that I get the equivalent of several hundred frame per second photography. Finally, I correlate my sequencing with what I see in videos.

When it comes to injury diagnosis, the timeframes involved aren't nearly as important as the orientations of the parts of the body at critical moments.

I would appreciate the assistance of anyone who can get me access to the photographer's wells of major league ballparks.


quote:
Yet from this you never fail to notice a "potential" career ending injury just waiting to happen.


That's overstating things. I do think that every major leaguer is vulnerable to injury, but I think that some major leaguers (e.g. Freddy Garcia and Zach Duke) are less vulnerable to injury while others are more vulnerable to injury (e.g. Mark Prior).

I would never say, as Dr. Marshall says, that every major leaguer will injure themselves.


quote:
If the pitcher has been injured in the past, heck your the real real expert then. When in truth you dont have a clue as to what caused the guys injury other than pitching, there is no proof to anything you say.


No, I don't have proof but I do have some theories. I'm trying to test those theories by making predictions and sitting back and seeing what happens. That's the way science works.
Nor do you have the skills/knowledge to understand so what good is just looking and hoping. Again your is pure conjecture that is not backed up by a shred of reliable research. Unless of course you deem yourself reliable which is very very far from the truth. Chris you almost know enough to really screw somebody up. But luckily for the masses this will pass soon. As your son has NO chance to become a high level pitcher so long as you are his coach. The point is you will just sort of drift away as your sons pitching career will. Becasue in my opinion as long as hes coached by you he has a whole hell of alot to overcome. Remember Chris I will be watching you and correcting your mistatements as well as your whacky notions about pitching. Heres a closing idea for you Chris. Take the video of yourself throwing the ideal marshall pitch and send it to the armed forces MAYBE just maybe they could use it for a model on how to throw a grenade. It sure as hell dos not resemble a single item in regards to a quality baseball pitch! Dont think I have ever met somebody who knows so little but presents himself as a knowledgable credible sourse.
quote:
Originally posted by hit&run:
Chris, can you describe the "early pronation" as it relates to hand position relative to the ball? It appears in your video that as the hand is behind the body, the palm is underneath the ball with fingers pointing up. Is that correct?


There are not to many pitchers that do not naturally pronate upon release. the same way a tennis player pronates on a serve. The same way a shotputter pronates upon release It is a natural process that the body iuses to protect itself as well as enhance performance. Chris would love to have you believe its his idea or that early pronation is the key. The only key that early pronation is good for is lowering the elbow, dragging the arm, lack of external rotation as well as loss of potential power. There is not a single high level pitcher at this time that emulates Chris and his mechanical malficiencies. Chris's motin should be labled "HOW NOT TO THROW A BASEBALL IF YOU HAVE ANY PLANS OR DESIRES TO PITCH AT THE NEXT LEVEL"! Beware of this guy he doesnt know which is not a bad thing altogether but he doesnt know he doesnt know, this is what makes him a danger, my opinion only. Do you have access to the full article he referenced? Id be happy to send it to you if you dont. the abstracts are free but the full articles cost money.
quote:
Why did you leave my quote out in correcting your mistatement about the longhead of the biceps tendon Chris.


Because it's not material. Yes, I did oversimplify the relationship of the pieces, but that was intentional; the point I was trying to make is that strengthening the muscles of the back will do nothing to address an elbow problem.


quote:
More of Chris Olearys conjecture of what he THINKS they are saying. The word pronation was never even mentioned. Your lost Chris give it. Go play pitchig guru with somebody else.


Oh please.

An extremely powerful force causes the forearm to fly out. The only way to resist this force, and to have the hand ahead of the elbow at the release point, is by powerfully pronating the forearm.

This is basic anatomy.


quote:
Im going to be watching everything you post becasue your a person who could seriously lead people down the wrong path.


I'm flattered.


quote:
More conjecture out of you Chris. why read between the lines. When the bottom line is this quote from the article "in the current study we were UNABLE to demonstrate a relationship between improper pitching mechanics and elbow and shoulder pain in young pitchers". Once again ole Chris Oleary knows better. He thinks he knows what they actually mean when they say one thing or another. They are flaws in the delivery, flaws that inhibit performance. The fact that they WEAKLY [the word you somehow forgot] correlate with less stress to elbow/shoulder is again moot. Once again Chris you are way in over your head. You read between the lines in hopes that you may come up with a supporting fact that is just not there. Get a clue chris the whole premise of the article was basically about pitch counts and overuse as well as types of pitches thrown.


Actually, if you read the article closely, you will see that the authors contradict themselves. The problem is that they are doing tthis research to prove the correctness of their model rather than take them where the the research leads them.


quote:
Nor do you have the skills/knowledge to understand so what good is just looking and hoping. Again your is pure conjecture that is not backed up by a shred of reliable research. Unless of course you deem yourself reliable which is very very far from the truth. Chris you almost know enough to really screw somebody up. But luckily for the masses this will pass soon. As your son has NO chance to become a high level pitcher so long as you are his coach. The point is you will just sort of drift away as your sons pitching career will. Becasue in my opinion as long as hes coached by you he has a whole hell of alot to overcome. Remember Chris I will be watching you and correcting your mistatements as well as your whacky notions about pitching. Heres a closing idea for you Chris. Take the video of yourself throwing the ideal marshall pitch and send it to the armed forces MAYBE just maybe they could use it for a model on how to throw a grenade. It sure as hell dos not resemble a single item in regards to a quality baseball pitch! Dont think I have ever met somebody who knows so little but presents himself as a knowledgable credible sourse.


Again, I'm flattered by the attention.

You must feel quite threatened to have to resort to such personal attacks.
Last edited by Coach Chris
quote:
Chris, can you describe the "early pronation" as it relates to hand position relative to the ball? It appears in your video that as the hand is behind the body, the palm is underneath the ball with fingers pointing up. Is that correct?


Early pronation is related more to the orientation of the forearm than to the ball. However, you can tell how pronated the forearm is by looking at the position of the ball.

In the video my hand is under the ball. This puts the forearm in a relatively supinated position. Since my forearm is supinated at this moment, I am then forced to pronate my forearm to get my palm facing the target. Pronating while the elbow is rapidly extending will protect the UCL by enabling the Pronator Teres muscle to take up some of the load that is normally focused on the UCL.

If my forearm was supinated at this point (e.g. fingers on top of the ball and showing the ball to Center Field), then my forearm would have to be extremely pronated. Since I would be pronated at this moment, I would have to supinate my forearm to get my palm to face the target. This would focus the load on the UCL.
quote:
There are not to many pitchers that do not naturally pronate upon release.


Precisely. Since this is the case, then pronating at the release point must not be sufficient to protect the elbow. In order to protect the elbow, you must pronate much sooner; while the elbow is rapidly extending.

The reason this works is because the Pronator Teres muscle also arises from the Medial Epicondyle and passes over UCL. This enables the Pronator Teres to assist the UCL is protecting the integrity of the elbow joint.


quote:
Chris would love to have you believe its his idea...


No I wouldn't.

I have said from the outset that Dr. Marshall was the person who helped me understand this. The only reason I started using the term "Early Pronation" was to clarify a misconception that has developed due to Tom House and Will Carroll's incomplete description of the role of pronation. They talk about the importance of pronation at the release point, which is too late to protect the elbow.


quote:
The only key that early pronation is good for is lowering the elbow, dragging the arm, lack of external rotation as well as loss of potential power.


There is no reason why this would be the case. Pronating early doesn't force you to drop the elbow. Pronating early certainly doesn't force you to drag the arm; the traditional pitching motion does that. As I have said before, pronating early will actually tend to put the hand ahead of the elbow. Finally, pronating early enables you to take better advantage of the power of external and internal rotation because it puts the hand father away from the axis of rotation.
Last edited by Coach Chris
Oak,

I would stay away from weghted gloves and weighted balls.

Obviously the weight travels in your hands during motion, so it is far from the center of the body and places a great deal of stress on the shoulder and elbow.

Not to mention they change mechanics. Period.

Usually these gimmicks cause injuries over a period of time, not in a few throws...although I have seen that happen on a few occasions.

And yes, pre/rehabing the upper back muscles can help with elbow pain. To state they are not closely related simply states you do not understand how the body works.
quote:
I would stay away from weghted gloves and weighted balls...Obviously the weight travels in your hands during motion, so it is far from the center of the body and places a great deal of stress on the shoulder and elbow...Not to mention they change mechanics. Period.


I disagree.

Used properly, weighted balls, weighted gloves, and wrist weights can help a pitcher build up the muscles of the arm that accelerate and decelerate it. The weights won't cause your arm to travel a path it wouldn't normally.

Generally, the idea is to just do dry throws (e.g. throwing while looking at yourself in a mirror and not while throwing a ball) with light weights (e.g. just a few pounds). You also don't want to throw weighted balls very far. Just far enough to help build up the muscles.


quote:
And yes, pre/rehabing the upper back muscles can help with elbow pain. To state they are not closely related simply states you do not understand how the body works.


How exactly would it help?
Jon,
I am curious what you think is too heavy to throw? I think the advantage of the weighted balls is that the work is very specific and the arm moves slower. How much over 5oz is too much? I have seen several studies showing that weighted balls help with velocity and arm health. Most notably Dr. DeRenne's Power Baseball. He did 8 studies with overload and underload and reported next to no arm injuries with increased performance. I am sure ASMI also has a study that shows performance enhancedment but no indication of increased risk to the thrower. I know their original study was in 99 and had no injuries to report. Do you have any actual data of someone under a well thought out program that was injured at a higher rate than anyone throwing regulation balls?

Chris, the body doesn't know the difference between a long throw and a short one. It only knows the amount of force required to meet the goal of the person throwing. You can throw max out into a net ten feet away or you can lob a ball across the diamond.
quote:
Chris, the body doesn't know the difference between a long throw and a short one. It only knows the amount of force required to meet the goal of the person throwing. You can throw max out into a net ten feet away or you can lob a ball across the diamond.


Yes, but you don't want to try to heave a 3lb ball (or even a 1lb ball) 200 feet.

You have to scale back the force and slowly build up the muscles. The point is smooth, gradual conditioning.
quote:
I think we are now saying the same thing. It's all about the force required not the distance. It cracks me up to hear people saying they can;t throw at home because their garage or basement isn't big enough. They can accomplish a whole bunch in a short distance in terms of arm care...IF they want to.


Agreed.

You can accomplish a lot via conditioning and dry throwing.
Will weighted balls and other equipment always cause an injury? Of course not. The risk/reward ratio is far too high in my opinion.

It would be challenging for a pro who is completely dialed in to their throwing mechanics to maintain an exact delivery with a weighted ball or glove, let alone having a teenageer trying these techniques. If a pitcher cannot duplicate there delivery over and over again with a regulation baseball, why would anybody place more weight in their hand?

I am familiar with the study. As I said earlier, these injuries are not acute they happen over time.

You can get science to say anything you want. I have empirical evidence and that is all I need.

These gimmicks are similar to weighted golf clubs or when you see boxers punch with light weights. Not only are those a complete waste of time, but will do much, much more harm than good. The sad thing is these products are an easy sell and the uninformed are quick to buy them up.

How exactly would working upper back muscles help in elbow injuries?

The arm is an extension of the body. The majority of velocity is created by the trunk and legs as well as the posterior chain. Due to repetitive syndrome caused by a great deal of internal rotation (i.e throwing) posture is very poor on the majorty of pitchers. Basically the shoulder capsule is a mess. After posture breaks down, mechanics are soon to follow. This causes a slight change in arm angle which places more stress on the elbow. Then all of a sudden there is a repetitive stress injury in the elbow.

Well, this all could have been avoided if the proper measures in shoulder health were taken. This included upper back work and rotator cuff/external rotation work such as muscle snatch, cuban presses, face pulls, band circles and external rotations are used; just to name a few. 10-15 minutes a day is all it takes.

So the PT was training the upper back to strengten the weak link in the chain.

This point also proves why throwing with a dumbbell will just reinforce improper movement and further weaken posture and shoulder health.

Why would you ever want the arm to move slower in a throwing action? The SSC cycle is extremely important in throwing velocity. I think anything more or less than the actual weight of a baseball is incorrect. If you honestly think the pitcher will be able to maintain mechanics you are sadly mistaken. The naked eye may not be able to pick it up, but it will create a different movement pattern.
quote:
It would be challenging for a pro who is completely dialed in to their throwing mechanics to maintain an exact delivery with a weighted ball or glove, let alone having a teenageer trying these techniques. If a pitcher cannot duplicate there delivery over and over again with a regulation baseball, why would anybody place more weight in their hand?


Working on timing and working on strength and conditioning are two different things and should be done at two different times.

You shouldn't try to throw full-speed pitches with weighted balls or wrist weights.


quote:
How exactly would working upper back muscles help in elbow injuries?...The arm is an extension of the body. The majority of velocity is created by the trunk and legs as well as the posterior chain.


Agreed.


quote:
Due to repetitive syndrome caused by a great deal of internal rotation (i.e throwing) posture is very poor on the majorty of pitchers. Basically the shoulder capsule is a mess. After posture breaks down, mechanics are soon to follow. This causes a slight change in arm angle which places more stress on the elbow. Then all of a sudden there is a repetitive stress injury in the elbow.


I'm not sure if by posture your are referring to things like slouching. If so, then I don't think that's the root cause of the problem.

Rather, I believe that most injuries are caused by things like...

1. Timing problems.

2. Problematic orientations of parts of the body (e.g. supinating the elbow during the acceleration phase).

3. Lack of conditioning.

4. Employing tricks (such as extending the glove-side knee as the shoulders turn) that have short-term benefits but long-term negative consequences.

5. Inefficient ways of generating force (e.g. trying to throw too much with the arm and not enough with the body).
I think we actually agree on this for the most part. You listed lack of conditioning as number 3 of your reasons for injury.

While this is a very broad topic, posture falls into this. As soon as posture is not optimal, maximal force cannot be generated (reason 5). The body breaks down and a different movement pattern/mechanics are used. This leads to injury. Does this include some of the reasons you listed such as supination of the elbow and knee direction? Absolutely.

I was not refering to S & C work when speaking about weighted balls. The problem is throwing weighted balls is trying to combine S & C and mechanical/timing work. A no-no in my opinion.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the weighted ball topic as they go against core concepts that I believe in.
Coach Chris-
They had me working on my upper back muscles to strengthen my shoulder blade area. The shoulder blade turns the rotator cuff, which is related to the elbow in the throwing motion. The doctors said I was using too much of my elbow while throwing, so they tried to strengthen my back in order to decrease the over-use. (Sorry about the late response...)

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