My son, who is a college pitcher, has pain in his right elbow, the doctor said he overextended it. He has been icing and resting but does anyone have any other suggestions to help this. Maybe special exercises etc.
thanks
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
quote:Stay away from inexperienced shaman.
quote:Chris it becomes your idea when you pass it on just like it becomes your bullet when you pull the trigger.
quote:How can you compare yourself to them and their advice would be see a qualified doctor.
quote:Do you have an M.D. or any medical certifications? EMS training? Candy Striper ever? Beyond that, where have you coached? Did you ever play beyond Little League (or even in LL, if I use that as a measure because I've watched that mess of a video in your yard).
quote:And, you just diagnosed it over the internet, issued a change in mechanics without monitoring it in person. How will he know if he is pronating at the right time? If he doesn't do it at the right time, is there a possibility he may cause further damage?
quote:Now you are showing the dilusional part. How can you compare yourself to them and their advice would be see a qualified doctor.
quote:BTW, when you throw BP for the eleven year-olds, what distance do you throw from?
quote:deleted by me! This has become a ridiculous thread.
quote:Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
To summarize, you have very little playing experience, you never coached a kid older than 11, you're not a doctor and you researched for a lawyer as a summer job. It's like you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and woke up as Leo Mazzone.
I hope everyone has a good understanding of your background before taking anything you say as good baseball advice. For their safety...
quote:I do also believe that many posters have many agendas. Coach Chris' is for you all to follow him to a website page.
quote:Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
,..... It's like you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and woke up as Leo Mazzone.
...
quote:I do beleive strongly (just like everyone else) that proper mechanics is important to staying injury free.
quote:BTW, if you read Boyd Nations report of pitcher abuse points you will find that Mark Prior most probably threw too many before he reached pro ball.
quote:diagnosing why a pitcher has elbow pain on a website and making suggestions without ever seeing the pitcher throw is a no no as far as I am concerned.
quote:Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved
quote:Could you tell us your background that gives you liberty to be dispensing this "info".
quote:The fact that you like Dr. Marshall's teachings is great - leave them to Marshall! He has years of experience and advanced degrees that correlate with the mechanics of pitching.
quote:I visited your site--it still tells me nothing regarding your baseball knowledge, nothing at all
quote:I just got an email from a coach here in Ontario that has a player that (because bone chips have torn his elbow up so much) may have to get his elbow REPLACED!!! 15 years old and he is he is finished as a ball player. This is a result of misdiagnosis from whom ever he told that his elbow hurt. Absolutely tragic...
quote:I talked to my son's doctor last night and he said the elbow is hyperextended, not serious.
quote:Avoid squirrels, chocolate candy bar factories and hardware stores or anywhere someone could be looking for another nut.
quote:Avoid squirrels, chocolate candy bar factories and hardware stores or anywhere someone could be looking for another nut.
quote:The fact that you're thoroughly and completely unqualified jumps into mind first.
quote:You try and mislead with cuts and pastes and SAT words.
quote:Your deception is that you are unqualified to present the information as you do.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The truth is Chris that all pitchers are subject to injury even with good mechanics. Good mechanics and proper conditioning help to reduce the risk.
quote:on the topic of elbow pain, I started feeling very mild pain "inside" my elbow, but it has lasted for a couple of days. Any ideas as to if it could be serious and/or what it could be?
quote:i have an elbow problem as well it's not that serious when i shadow pitch i feel a tingle in the middle of my elbow not the back the front ot the elbow, this maybe because i also play basket ball and in basetball while shooting you do have to push hard with your elbow it does not hurt just tingles, any thoughts?
quote:i have not seen a doctor and i am 15
quote:I recently finished two months of physical therapy due to elbow pain over the summer. The pain was from muscle strain, and the therapists had me doing exercises for my upper back.
quote:what to you mean by center-field if you mean the when i'm in the power triangle when my feet have landed i put the ball in between 3rd and short.
quote:Upper back muscles and forearms/elbows are closely related.
quote:I would saty clear of weighted baseballs.
They do not help performance and can place a great deal of strain on the shoulder and elbow joint.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:quote:Upper back muscles and forearms/elbows are closely related.
Well...
Yes, the Long Head Of The Biceps Tendon does insert into the upper arm.
Chris please stop with the anatomy observations, your wrong again. Although the longhead of the biceps tendon does have a connection close to the upper arm unfortunatly being close is not good enough, two actually its insertion point is in the radias bone of the forearm. It originates from the supragleniod tubercle of the scapula. It also has a superior/posterior connection to the glenoid labrum. It does course over the head of the humerus on its way to its insertion point. at least you were close huh!
However, the muscles of the upper back are used to decelerate the arm. Elbow injuries occur while the arm is accelerating, not while it is decelerating.
quote:Chris please stop with the anatomy observations, your wrong again...It does course over the head of the humerus on its way to its insertion point. at least you were close huh!
quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:
Yes, but this wouldn't manifest itself as elbow pain.
quote:You cannot support any of your "notions" with real research.
quote:You fail to produce a replica of your desired mechanics.
quote:You look at a series of still pics from not different games mind you but different seasons. You string them up for your expert analysis with no way of having a clue as to the timeframes involed.
quote:Yet from this you never fail to notice a "potential" career ending injury just waiting to happen.
quote:If the pitcher has been injured in the past, heck your the real real expert then. When in truth you dont have a clue as to what caused the guys injury other than pitching, there is no proof to anything you say.
Nor do you have the skills/knowledge to understand so what good is just looking and hoping. Again your is pure conjecture that is not backed up by a shred of reliable research. Unless of course you deem yourself reliable which is very very far from the truth. Chris you almost know enough to really screw somebody up. But luckily for the masses this will pass soon. As your son has NO chance to become a high level pitcher so long as you are his coach. The point is you will just sort of drift away as your sons pitching career will. Becasue in my opinion as long as hes coached by you he has a whole hell of alot to overcome. Remember Chris I will be watching you and correcting your mistatements as well as your whacky notions about pitching. Heres a closing idea for you Chris. Take the video of yourself throwing the ideal marshall pitch and send it to the armed forces MAYBE just maybe they could use it for a model on how to throw a grenade. It sure as hell dos not resemble a single item in regards to a quality baseball pitch! Dont think I have ever met somebody who knows so little but presents himself as a knowledgable credible sourse.quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:Why did you leave my quote out in correcting your mistatement about the longhead of the biceps tendon Chris. again Do NOT talk about things in which you dont have the slightest idea other than reading a few articles. your dangerous!quote:You cannot support any of your "notions" with real research.
Yes I can. See "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Stephen Lyman PhD, Glenn S. Fleisig PhD, James R. Andrews MD, and E. David Osinski MA. On page 465 of this article, the authors make the following statement...
"In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain."
When the authors talk about the "arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release" they are talking about pronation (and more importantly something that I call Early Pronation). The only way to have the arm in this position at the Release Point is to be actively pronating at (and more importantly well before) that moment.
More of Chris Olearys conjecture of what he THINKS they are saying. The word pronation was never even mentioned. Your lost Chris give it. Go play pitchig guru with somebody else. Im going to be watching everything you post becasue your a person who could seriously lead people down the wrong path.
One thing to keep in mind when reading this paragraph (and article) is that the use of the term "mechanical flaw" is unfortunate (if not a bit misleading). I believe that the authors do not mean that doing these four things will hurt your velocity or control. Instead, I believe that they are just saying that these four things differ from what they believe are ideal mechanics.
Of course, that makes me wonder about the veracity of their model of the ideal pitching motion.
More conjecture out of you Chris. why read between the lines. When the bottom line is this quote from the article "in the current study we were UNABLE to demonstrate a relationship between improper pitching mechanics and elbow and shoulder pain in young pitchers". Once again ole Chris Oleary knows better. He thinks he knows what they actually mean when they say one thing or another. They are flaws in the delivery, flaws that inhibit performance. The fact that they WEAKLY [the word you somehow forgot] correlate with less stress to elbow/shoulder is again moot. Once again Chris you are way in over your head. You read between the lines in hopes that you may come up with a supporting fact that is just not there. Get a clue chris the whole premise of the article was basically about pitch counts and overuse as well as types of pitches thrown.quote:You fail to produce a replica of your desired mechanics.
Dr. Marshall is working on that as we speak. Once the ground dries up (and it stays light longer), I'll start posting some clips myself.quote:You look at a series of still pics from not different games mind you but different seasons. You string them up for your expert analysis with no way of having a clue as to the timeframes involed.
I'm doing the best I can given my limited resources (and have never said otherwise). I like the resolution I get by stitching together still photos and also like that I get the equivalent of several hundred frame per second photography. Finally, I correlate my sequencing with what I see in videos.
When it comes to injury diagnosis, the timeframes involved aren't nearly as important as the orientations of the parts of the body at critical moments.
I would appreciate the assistance of anyone who can get me access to the photographer's wells of major league ballparks.quote:Yet from this you never fail to notice a "potential" career ending injury just waiting to happen.
That's overstating things. I do think that every major leaguer is vulnerable to injury, but I think that some major leaguers (e.g. Freddy Garcia and Zach Duke) are less vulnerable to injury while others are more vulnerable to injury (e.g. Mark Prior).
I would never say, as Dr. Marshall says, that every major leaguer will injure themselves.quote:If the pitcher has been injured in the past, heck your the real real expert then. When in truth you dont have a clue as to what caused the guys injury other than pitching, there is no proof to anything you say.
No, I don't have proof but I do have some theories. I'm trying to test those theories by making predictions and sitting back and seeing what happens. That's the way science works.
quote:Originally posted by hit&run:
Chris, can you describe the "early pronation" as it relates to hand position relative to the ball? It appears in your video that as the hand is behind the body, the palm is underneath the ball with fingers pointing up. Is that correct?
quote:Why did you leave my quote out in correcting your mistatement about the longhead of the biceps tendon Chris.
quote:More of Chris Olearys conjecture of what he THINKS they are saying. The word pronation was never even mentioned. Your lost Chris give it. Go play pitchig guru with somebody else.
quote:Im going to be watching everything you post becasue your a person who could seriously lead people down the wrong path.
quote:More conjecture out of you Chris. why read between the lines. When the bottom line is this quote from the article "in the current study we were UNABLE to demonstrate a relationship between improper pitching mechanics and elbow and shoulder pain in young pitchers". Once again ole Chris Oleary knows better. He thinks he knows what they actually mean when they say one thing or another. They are flaws in the delivery, flaws that inhibit performance. The fact that they WEAKLY [the word you somehow forgot] correlate with less stress to elbow/shoulder is again moot. Once again Chris you are way in over your head. You read between the lines in hopes that you may come up with a supporting fact that is just not there. Get a clue chris the whole premise of the article was basically about pitch counts and overuse as well as types of pitches thrown.
quote:Nor do you have the skills/knowledge to understand so what good is just looking and hoping. Again your is pure conjecture that is not backed up by a shred of reliable research. Unless of course you deem yourself reliable which is very very far from the truth. Chris you almost know enough to really screw somebody up. But luckily for the masses this will pass soon. As your son has NO chance to become a high level pitcher so long as you are his coach. The point is you will just sort of drift away as your sons pitching career will. Becasue in my opinion as long as hes coached by you he has a whole hell of alot to overcome. Remember Chris I will be watching you and correcting your mistatements as well as your whacky notions about pitching. Heres a closing idea for you Chris. Take the video of yourself throwing the ideal marshall pitch and send it to the armed forces MAYBE just maybe they could use it for a model on how to throw a grenade. It sure as hell dos not resemble a single item in regards to a quality baseball pitch! Dont think I have ever met somebody who knows so little but presents himself as a knowledgable credible sourse.
quote:Chris, can you describe the "early pronation" as it relates to hand position relative to the ball? It appears in your video that as the hand is behind the body, the palm is underneath the ball with fingers pointing up. Is that correct?
quote:There are not to many pitchers that do not naturally pronate upon release.
quote:Chris would love to have you believe its his idea...
quote:The only key that early pronation is good for is lowering the elbow, dragging the arm, lack of external rotation as well as loss of potential power.
quote:I would stay away from weghted gloves and weighted balls...Obviously the weight travels in your hands during motion, so it is far from the center of the body and places a great deal of stress on the shoulder and elbow...Not to mention they change mechanics. Period.
quote:And yes, pre/rehabing the upper back muscles can help with elbow pain. To state they are not closely related simply states you do not understand how the body works.
quote:Chris, the body doesn't know the difference between a long throw and a short one. It only knows the amount of force required to meet the goal of the person throwing. You can throw max out into a net ten feet away or you can lob a ball across the diamond.
quote:I think we are now saying the same thing. It's all about the force required not the distance. It cracks me up to hear people saying they can;t throw at home because their garage or basement isn't big enough. They can accomplish a whole bunch in a short distance in terms of arm care...IF they want to.
quote:It would be challenging for a pro who is completely dialed in to their throwing mechanics to maintain an exact delivery with a weighted ball or glove, let alone having a teenageer trying these techniques. If a pitcher cannot duplicate there delivery over and over again with a regulation baseball, why would anybody place more weight in their hand?
quote:How exactly would working upper back muscles help in elbow injuries?...The arm is an extension of the body. The majority of velocity is created by the trunk and legs as well as the posterior chain.
quote:Due to repetitive syndrome caused by a great deal of internal rotation (i.e throwing) posture is very poor on the majorty of pitchers. Basically the shoulder capsule is a mess. After posture breaks down, mechanics are soon to follow. This causes a slight change in arm angle which places more stress on the elbow. Then all of a sudden there is a repetitive stress injury in the elbow.