I like to believe in giving people the opportunity to do the right thing, and think we have a better chance of that happening if we act in a non threatening manner.
Around our parts, JV plays American Legion ball beginning in the summer going into 9th grade. We were quite surprised when our son threw a complete 7 inning game:105 pitches on a hot Saturday afternoon. It was our understanding that the games were for dev't, not necessarily to win, and it seemed like a lot of pitches for a meaningless game. Our son was still 13, having that summer birthday. We didn't want to rock any boats, and this was the first game, so we just waited. Two days later our son got the start again. My husband was in shock as he called me on the cell. "Are you sure he threw 105 Saturday?" he asked. "Yes," I replied. He then informed me that they had our son warming up to start. Of course, that didn't go over well with momma! My husband very politely walked down to the fence and asked for the coach. He told him that our son had just pitched a complete game on Saturday and couldn't possibly pitch again on 48 hours. The reply was that he threw at most 50-60 pitches and our son gave us the best opportunity to win. My husband asked that they check the official book for Saturday's game. Thank goodness the scorekeeper keeps a good book, marking foul balls. Scorekeeper is a teacher from school, not on baseball staff, but has good baseball background and has been scoring for at least 20 years. Well, it was exactly 105 pitches. Son did not start, and varsity coach found out about it.(not by us) He wasn't happy, gave the JV coach a warning, and emphasized that they knew our son could pitch, they were more interested in developing others. A few weeks later we were playing in a JV tournament. He did the same thing with a sophomore pitcher, throwing him 1 complete game, and closing with him in the next game. That was the end of his high school career at our school.
This coach was given another chance, but he didn't take it. I am glad my husband went directly to him. Really,if the coach is given the opportunity to change his tactics and doesn't, then some of the suggestions discussed in prior posts might be warranted. I would rather give the coach the rope: let him, instead of you, hang himself. He might even do the right thing!
quote:Originally posted by PA Dino:
Do you feel this passionate about all of life's social inequities? You won't find that your commitment to the cause is appreciated by all, especially the ones you are trying to save. What you plan to do is no more fulfilling than turning whales around into the sea only to have them beach themselves again.
We’re not talking about all life’s inequities here, and in fact aren’t talking about any inequity. What we’re talking about is simply looking out for those who may or may not know that their child has been put in jeopardy. Perhaps you wouldn’t take the time to grab a toddler playing in the street and at least move him/her to the sidewalk, but I grew up in a time when all but the most callous and uncaring would do it without hesitation.
quote:The pitching abuse problem is complex. You can't will it to be fixed by mounting a bully pulpit. You can certainly be part of the answer if you chose to be part of a team. As a pitching coach, do your thing and let others do theirs.
Pardon my French, but that’s a pantload, and exactly the kind of thinking that keeps the problem from being mitigated. Coaches screaming that their jobs are somehow being stolen from their grasp are little more then whiners who refuse to admit there might just be a reason to have rules about such things that are better than what we have now.
quote:How many of these coaches really want the same pitcher laboring on the mound for a hundred or more pitches? If they had a better option, they'd be getting them warmed up and in the game. There is a drought of good pitching in a lot of these high school programs. Kids today are abandoning the game by the scores. It is becoming more elite in nature and the average to poor teams are suffering.
There is a better option. All they have to do is develop more pitchers. Nothing says all the pitchers have to have WHIPs less than .50, ERAs below 1.00, and a K:BB ratio of 14:1! There are plenty of HS pitchers who will never pitch a ball once they’ve finished HS who have one heck of a lot of success. And if you think that’s not true, you’re just kidding yourself.
The problem is, in too many coach’s minds, the pitcher is a sac of meat who’s well being is never as important as winning a stupid baseball game.
quote:You are guy that understands statistics. There's not much chance of of high school kid moving on to be a productive college pitcher. And a minuscule chance to get to be a professional. These kids know this and most of them are creating memories on the high school field. Why don't we let them paint the picture? They are the ones that will have to look at it the rest of their lives. I know if I were mom or dad and you made it your business......it might be a long time before you cared about anything I did again.
That’s a argument that’s been issued many times, and I must say its one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. You’ve obviously never had a child who has great memories about the big game he threw in HS, but is now hooked on Vicodin or some other equally or more noxious drug, because at 25 he’s in so much pain he can’t sleep. I totally agree that the chances of any one kid injuring himself over any one performance is extremely long odds, but that’s why its so important to at least keep those things to a minimum. Its really sad that there are so few coaches now-a-days who really overuse/abuse pitchers, but it’s the same ones over and over again! Why? Because people like you don’t want to simply weed them out.
quote:Many times it's better to let people learn the hard way. Today's game is about survival of the smartest. If some kid that represents competition for my kid, wants to throw his arm out before he gets to college........oh well it stinks to be him.
I have to admit that I very seldom get involved with pitch counts during a game. Not that it isn’t any of my business, but because it isn’t the right venue. But I have contacted an AD, a principal, a Supt of schools, and a school board when I see some coach put a kid at risk for little more than a few minutes of glory, and I’m not one bit ashamed of it.
There are plenty of very knowledgeable people who have made reasonable recommendations about such things, and there’s no reason not to pay attention to them, other than to pander to some ridiculous testosterone induced fever.
Coach May,
What do you think about this. I have a 17 yr old LH pitcher (junior). He's my second son thru this HS program, the first trashed his arm after numerous outings then playing SS, so I'm sensitive.
Lefty threw 106 last Wednesday. The coach asked me if it was okay to throw Lefty Saturday about 40 or so, one day short of his suggested rest period. As it was against the toughest team in our league, best competiton, I said sure as long as he feels fine and didn't throw too much during practice.
Well left came in, tied game, top 4. For 2 more innings lefty was shutting them down, gave up a HR in the 6th, down 1. In the top of the 7th the coach put in all those youngsters that needed "at bats to letter" so basically he "threw in the towel" down 1. Lefty threw 49 in 3.
Coach now wants to throw him again Tuesday after 2 days rest.
I told coach no and if I knew you were treating Saturday's game as a "throw away" I wouldn't have allowed you to short cycle in the first place. Coach is mad.
Coach can set his objectives and goals as he sees fit but shouldn't jepardize lefty (or anyone else)is my thoughts...and going one day short on rest if coach is planning a "throw away" is stupid when there are many young pitchers that could have used the work. Guess he just wanted it to make the 7th inning.
Guess I'll just stick to 4 or more day's rest after 80....period....no variation.
What do you think about this. I have a 17 yr old LH pitcher (junior). He's my second son thru this HS program, the first trashed his arm after numerous outings then playing SS, so I'm sensitive.
Lefty threw 106 last Wednesday. The coach asked me if it was okay to throw Lefty Saturday about 40 or so, one day short of his suggested rest period. As it was against the toughest team in our league, best competiton, I said sure as long as he feels fine and didn't throw too much during practice.
Well left came in, tied game, top 4. For 2 more innings lefty was shutting them down, gave up a HR in the 6th, down 1. In the top of the 7th the coach put in all those youngsters that needed "at bats to letter" so basically he "threw in the towel" down 1. Lefty threw 49 in 3.
Coach now wants to throw him again Tuesday after 2 days rest.
I told coach no and if I knew you were treating Saturday's game as a "throw away" I wouldn't have allowed you to short cycle in the first place. Coach is mad.
Coach can set his objectives and goals as he sees fit but shouldn't jepardize lefty (or anyone else)is my thoughts...and going one day short on rest if coach is planning a "throw away" is stupid when there are many young pitchers that could have used the work. Guess he just wanted it to make the 7th inning.
Guess I'll just stick to 4 or more day's rest after 80....period....no variation.
It all comes back to common sense. If the "coach" doesn't have it someone who does must step in. In this case someone with some common sense did.
I have witnessed some amazing things over the years. I once saw a 12 year old LHP who happened to be an absolute stud for that age throw a compete game on Friday with over 130 pitches brought back out to start the championship game on Sunday in AAU. And the coach was his dad.
When I approached him around the 3rd inning to tell him that he really should think about taking the kid out he went off on me and began to cuss me out. I calmly told him he was going to ruin the young mans arm and he needed to do the right thing. He took him out of the game. I never heard what happened to the kid. He was very very good.
We all know these things happen. We all know there are some knuckle heads out there. Just use common sense if the "coach" doesnt have it. It all works out if this happens.
I have witnessed some amazing things over the years. I once saw a 12 year old LHP who happened to be an absolute stud for that age throw a compete game on Friday with over 130 pitches brought back out to start the championship game on Sunday in AAU. And the coach was his dad.
When I approached him around the 3rd inning to tell him that he really should think about taking the kid out he went off on me and began to cuss me out. I calmly told him he was going to ruin the young mans arm and he needed to do the right thing. He took him out of the game. I never heard what happened to the kid. He was very very good.
We all know these things happen. We all know there are some knuckle heads out there. Just use common sense if the "coach" doesnt have it. It all works out if this happens.
I think its pathetic. I never in my hs coaching career threw a kid on less than four days rest if he started a game. NEVER not one time. Would I do it to my son? NO. Then I am not going to do it to someone else's kid. I have brought back middle relief guys on two or three days rest as long as the pitch count was low and they were used to throwing in those situations. But only if I felt they were good to go and they told me they were good to go and the pitch count was low.
I never put a pitcher in the field when he is on his four days of rest. DH - Yes. Maybe 1st base if its day three. But that was rare. The off days are used to prepare for the on day. And it comes down to caring more about your players and developing your other players than trying to ride one horse.
Some have some common sense and some dont. Sometimes you have to step in. As a parent its your job if the "coach" doesnt do the right thing. And we are talking about the hs level of play. But an outsider has no business doing what a player can do first and if that doesnt do the trick the parent does.
I never put a pitcher in the field when he is on his four days of rest. DH - Yes. Maybe 1st base if its day three. But that was rare. The off days are used to prepare for the on day. And it comes down to caring more about your players and developing your other players than trying to ride one horse.
Some have some common sense and some dont. Sometimes you have to step in. As a parent its your job if the "coach" doesnt do the right thing. And we are talking about the hs level of play. But an outsider has no business doing what a player can do first and if that doesnt do the trick the parent does.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Where did the 100 number come from anyway? Why is 100 better than 120? Does anyone know? Did ASMI just pick a number out of a hat?
I know, but then again I’ve paid a lot of attention to this issue over the last several years.
Here’s a link to the article that got me goin’ on this thing. As you’ll notice the #100 came from a fellow named Craig Wright. PAP has morphed many times over the years as new research has made more information available, with a recently released study by ASMI being the latest in a long line of studies. None have been perfect, but each has added to the overall knowledge.
http://www.baseballprospectus....?articleid=1477#hist
quote:In 1980, 20% of MLB games the pitcher threw complete games, now the number is closer to 4%. Yet, we have more injuries.
Is the real issue fatigue (and change in technique)?
Just asking here.
Here is an interesting chart (Times when a starter went over a certain pitch limit. From STATS Inc. ):
Year 120 + 140 + Highest
1998 475 21 152 (Livan Hernandez)
1999 414 11 153 (Pedro Astacio)
2000 400 6 148 (Ron Villone)
2001 196 2 147 (Randy Johnson)
2002 193 1 150 (Randy Johnson)
2003 228 2 141 (Kerry Wood)
177 would seem to be way off the charts.
I hear that Steve Carlton threw 304 pitches in one game for the 1980 Phillies. Greg Maddux, as a 22-year-old Cub in 1988, threw 167 pitches in an 11-inning loss to the Cardinals.
One of the main reasons this issue is argued so often, is because the only level of baseball with accurate numbers to look at, is MLB, and that’s a far cry from any level below the pros.
Affiliated professional baseball first of all is participated in mainly by adults, or minors who have some form of adult representation, and they get paid for playing. They also have access to the very best coaching, and the very best medical advice and treatment. That is not the same picture as all but a handful of HS teams out of the 16,000+ that field a baseball team.
Here’s a link to one of the highest ranked teams in Ca.. Look at how their coach doles the work out to his pitchers. You can click on a pitcher’s name and see his pitchers per game.
http://www.maxpreps.com/high-s...s/baseball/stats.htm
Here’s another one from the same league. Check out a couple of their pitchers who have thrown a lot of pitches. Do you see any difference?
http://www.maxpreps.com/high-s...s/baseball/stats.htm
There simply doesn’t need to be many kids throwing more than 100 pitches in a game. But it takes a conscious effort on the part of the coaches to make sure they stay on it.
The whole issue is so frustrating because common sense is the best mitigating factor there is, but as my old friend says, “Common sense ain’t so common!”
Coaches need to realize something also in my opinion...I'll lay out a scenario that I personally came across in college:
Pitcher throws 8 2/3 innings on a Thursday, 114 pitches in a 5-1 conference win (conference games are typically Fri-Sun, but weather indicated a necessary schedule change). Have non-conference on Monday, and then conference again the following weekend. Coach's intentions are to have pitcher return on Monday to throw around 50 pitches in relief, and then start Friday's conference game.
I find this type of situation to be very common. A coach's rationale is "it's a bullpen day anyway". What coaches lose sight of is that throwing a bullpen is VERY different than throwing in a game against an opponent. Bullpens are done on your time, with ample rest time, while you throw the pitches you want to work on and without any pressure. The concept that a pitcher will have the same benefit throwing in relief on short rest "pen days" is very different than having him throw an actual bullpen on the side to prepare for his next start.
Pitcher throws 8 2/3 innings on a Thursday, 114 pitches in a 5-1 conference win (conference games are typically Fri-Sun, but weather indicated a necessary schedule change). Have non-conference on Monday, and then conference again the following weekend. Coach's intentions are to have pitcher return on Monday to throw around 50 pitches in relief, and then start Friday's conference game.
I find this type of situation to be very common. A coach's rationale is "it's a bullpen day anyway". What coaches lose sight of is that throwing a bullpen is VERY different than throwing in a game against an opponent. Bullpens are done on your time, with ample rest time, while you throw the pitches you want to work on and without any pressure. The concept that a pitcher will have the same benefit throwing in relief on short rest "pen days" is very different than having him throw an actual bullpen on the side to prepare for his next start.
JH thats why you take him off the table completely. Players want to win. Coaches want to win. The competitive juices start to flow. The game is tight. He pleads to stay in. The coach feels like he owes it to the team and the player to leave him in. NO you have to take him off the table completely. You have to have a set plan and stick with it.
JH I have seen this many times as well. I remember playing for the conference championship one year. I had a stud lhp on the mound. It was 1-1 after 7. He has thrown around 105 pitches several K's. He begged me to stay in. Nope. Your out. We lost 2-1. You know what someone else needs to step up. Its not worth it.
I know you understand this. A BP is not pitching in a game situation. Its simply not the same thing. Its an excuse used to fudge. Simply set rules and stick to them.
JH I have seen this many times as well. I remember playing for the conference championship one year. I had a stud lhp on the mound. It was 1-1 after 7. He has thrown around 105 pitches several K's. He begged me to stay in. Nope. Your out. We lost 2-1. You know what someone else needs to step up. Its not worth it.
I know you understand this. A BP is not pitching in a game situation. Its simply not the same thing. Its an excuse used to fudge. Simply set rules and stick to them.
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
TPM,
With all due respect, that’s precisely why there’s so many problems in this particular area. What difference does it make if a player’s going on or not?
This season we’ve had our pitchers go over 100 4 times for a max of 112 in 24 games. Our opponents have had 6 pitchers do the same, at a max of 131. That’s 10 pitchers in 24 games, or about 1 every other game, and I think most other teams would find it much the same.
Does that mean there’s an epidemic of blown elbows and torn rotators? I don’t know, but you can bet your life that in general there’s more of a chance of a player being injured when throwing a lot of pitches than not. By your standard, no one should say dinky doo unless it their kid because its none of their business. Well, you and I have a disagreement there. If I can contribute to some kid 1 few years down the line with a dad who hasn’t got a clue, being kept from being overused/abused by some coach, I feel its my obligation to the game to make it happen. Its nothing less than I’d hope someone would do for my kid if I didn’t know any better, or yours.
With all due respect, people here can tell you that I am a real crazy lady about protecting young pitchers. So I don't want to hear about not caring or saying anything, because you do not know anything about me.
This topic was about a player throwing 177 pitches, which is ridiculous and quite frankly pretty impossible for me to get a visual without seeing the kid struggle, but then it is possible he looked fine.
Anyway we have had hours and hours of discussion here (sorry you missed most of it) over the years about what is right and what is wrong.
112 pitches the first game of the season, to me I am way passed the hysterical point, 112 late in season, it's not to be unexpected (I am assuming you are talking HS). There are some kids who can do that, there are many who can't and common sense should always prevail.
I got to go with some things stated here, the real damage can occur when one throws too much in one inning. Damage can occur not being on a routine and then doing too much, too many of one pitch, who knows, we all know that over use is the culprit, 100 pitches or a bit above with enough rest and specific excercises for recovery, etc should not harm a HS player.
Is there an epidemic of blown elbows, torn rotator cuffs, yes there has been, that's why there are recommendations for pitch counts and rest periods.
FYI, in HS our pitcher looked like he could have a future on the mound, we watched carefully and did what we had to when we thought he had done too much. Some of the other guys, had no intention to ever go further than HS, they threw every chance they got and no one cared.
If you feel that you should be the one to educate the parent on arm health face to face, I say go for it, but as I said and still beleive, be prepared with all facts, not just what you think is right or wrong.
Pitch counts are a VERY sticky situation. I do find it interesting sometimes how often the number 100 is used as a milestone number for pitchers. I haven't read too many reports saying that there's any scientific evidence that 100 is the number to work around. I don't disagree that counts like 177 highlighted by the OP are over excessive, but I do believe that there are other factors involved in pitch counts.
For example, I threw a complete game earlier this season in which I threw 122 pitches. Another start I threw 98 pitches through 7 1/3 innings, being pulled in the 8th. I threw well in both those starts. At the surface, one would look at the box scores and say that 122 pitches might be too many, and that the coach extended me too far...and he did the right thing pulling me after 98 in the other start. But backtrack a second. In the start with 122 pitches, it was 70 degrees out. The other team had a total of 4 hits...2 of which were in the 2nd inning...and a runner never got past second base. We won the game 8-0, and had a 5 run fourth inning to get out to a comfortable lead. In the game that I went 7 1/3, the opponent scattered 8 hits off me, and scored 3 runs. There was only one inning that I went 1-2-3 and they had the bases loaded twice. We ended up going 12 innings in the game.
There are a lot of factors involved in a pitcher's health during a game. Did the pitcher struggle through his performance? Was he behind in the count a lot? Was there a noticeable diminishment in his performance as the innings got later? How was the weather? What was the score?
Once again these things might not seem that important at the surface. But pitching is a highly mental craft that can be very draining. Factors such as those above could alter a pitcher's workload for a day.
Note: Both the above appearances I listed were on full rest. I am a college junior. I am not advocating for any pitch count limitations in particular, just trying to show an example
For example, I threw a complete game earlier this season in which I threw 122 pitches. Another start I threw 98 pitches through 7 1/3 innings, being pulled in the 8th. I threw well in both those starts. At the surface, one would look at the box scores and say that 122 pitches might be too many, and that the coach extended me too far...and he did the right thing pulling me after 98 in the other start. But backtrack a second. In the start with 122 pitches, it was 70 degrees out. The other team had a total of 4 hits...2 of which were in the 2nd inning...and a runner never got past second base. We won the game 8-0, and had a 5 run fourth inning to get out to a comfortable lead. In the game that I went 7 1/3, the opponent scattered 8 hits off me, and scored 3 runs. There was only one inning that I went 1-2-3 and they had the bases loaded twice. We ended up going 12 innings in the game.
There are a lot of factors involved in a pitcher's health during a game. Did the pitcher struggle through his performance? Was he behind in the count a lot? Was there a noticeable diminishment in his performance as the innings got later? How was the weather? What was the score?
Once again these things might not seem that important at the surface. But pitching is a highly mental craft that can be very draining. Factors such as those above could alter a pitcher's workload for a day.
Note: Both the above appearances I listed were on full rest. I am a college junior. I am not advocating for any pitch count limitations in particular, just trying to show an example
Do your thing Stats. No one here is going to stop you. Go on your mission and good luck to you. The people responding to you have been around the game a long time and understand how this stuff works. Your concerned with pitch counts. Good.
JH just for the record. Have you felt more fatigued on a day you threw 80 pitches and struggled than you have felt when you threw 100 pitches and were in control?
Absolutely. But I also feel more proud of my performance on those days that I don't feel that great. It's really easy to pitch when everything is working. It's really hard when everything isn't. What makes a good pitcher is being able to adjust and make things work to the best of their ability and continue to give their team the opportunity to win.
Absolutely! Thanks JH its so great to have a current college player on this site and especially one like you. I hope your recovery is coming along as you would like and good luck this summer.
Thanks Coach May. PT is going well and I should be beginning to start light tossing this coming Friday.
Another iffy topic is pitch counts from a pitcher's perspective. As I said, I'm a college junior who has pitched in some important games and have also pitched deep into games on several occasions. I never...NEVER...want to come out of the game. My attitude is that if it takes my offense 20 innings to score a run, then that's how many innings I'll shut my opponent down to get the win. I have never in my entire life been pleased when I see my head coach making his way out of the dugout and motioning his arm towards the bullpen. In fact, I am usually pretty upset he pulled me out for an inning or two.
After the game ends, reality and common sense starts to kick in. I think about the innings I threw, the pitches I threw. I think about my previous appearances, and my future appearances. Would facing that extra batter or pitching the additional inning be more beneficial to the team than to have me healthy in the future? Many pitching injuries are overuse injuries and the tendency of a pitcher to attempt to extend his outing can often times be the dagger in terms of a healthy season/career.
It takes a lot of maturity to overcome the selfishly competitive aspect of the game and yield your work to a teammate. The word selfish is usually portrayed with a negative connotation, but I don't think selfish competitiveness is bad in team sports, as long as it doesn't hinder the team's ability to perform and coexist. Trust in your teammates is everything in this scenario, and respecting the knowledge of your coaching staff, as well as the physical reactions your body is giving you. That same selfish competitiveness that you have is usually identical in your teammate, and the confidence he has in his abilities should more than justify the decision to take you out of the game in the best interest of the team and your future health.
Another iffy topic is pitch counts from a pitcher's perspective. As I said, I'm a college junior who has pitched in some important games and have also pitched deep into games on several occasions. I never...NEVER...want to come out of the game. My attitude is that if it takes my offense 20 innings to score a run, then that's how many innings I'll shut my opponent down to get the win. I have never in my entire life been pleased when I see my head coach making his way out of the dugout and motioning his arm towards the bullpen. In fact, I am usually pretty upset he pulled me out for an inning or two.
After the game ends, reality and common sense starts to kick in. I think about the innings I threw, the pitches I threw. I think about my previous appearances, and my future appearances. Would facing that extra batter or pitching the additional inning be more beneficial to the team than to have me healthy in the future? Many pitching injuries are overuse injuries and the tendency of a pitcher to attempt to extend his outing can often times be the dagger in terms of a healthy season/career.
It takes a lot of maturity to overcome the selfishly competitive aspect of the game and yield your work to a teammate. The word selfish is usually portrayed with a negative connotation, but I don't think selfish competitiveness is bad in team sports, as long as it doesn't hinder the team's ability to perform and coexist. Trust in your teammates is everything in this scenario, and respecting the knowledge of your coaching staff, as well as the physical reactions your body is giving you. That same selfish competitiveness that you have is usually identical in your teammate, and the confidence he has in his abilities should more than justify the decision to take you out of the game in the best interest of the team and your future health.
Stats, I understand your point and there isn't a person here that doesn't think that 177 pitches is too many. As a parent I would be appalled if my son's coach did that to a child.
But, like I said earlier, if it isn't your child then you shouldn't be directly involved. You can let the parents of the boy know and if you want kindly inform the coach that such a thing will not happen with your son.
The primary responsibility for the welfare of the boy in question lies with the parents. As upsetting as the whole thing is to you it still is something that you are only involved with peripherally. Meddling in these kinds of things will only get you branded as a troublesome parent and will result in the resentment of probably the coaching staff and maybe the rest of the team.
Look at it this way. Lets say that was my son that threw 177 pitches. Lets also say that he pitched on an evening that I worked and I had no idea that it happened. Now if someone came to me and told me about it I would be upset and I would take care of it.
If I found out later that you, as some 'white knight' came in and complained about it to the AD I would still take care of the problem but I would have a whole lot of resentment toward you because you are trying to do my job as parent of my son. Tell the parents about it and if they don't do anything about it then wash your hands of it. Your son is your responsibility, sticking your nose in this will probably not help anything and more than likely will cause more hard feelings.
But, like I said earlier, if it isn't your child then you shouldn't be directly involved. You can let the parents of the boy know and if you want kindly inform the coach that such a thing will not happen with your son.
The primary responsibility for the welfare of the boy in question lies with the parents. As upsetting as the whole thing is to you it still is something that you are only involved with peripherally. Meddling in these kinds of things will only get you branded as a troublesome parent and will result in the resentment of probably the coaching staff and maybe the rest of the team.
Look at it this way. Lets say that was my son that threw 177 pitches. Lets also say that he pitched on an evening that I worked and I had no idea that it happened. Now if someone came to me and told me about it I would be upset and I would take care of it.
If I found out later that you, as some 'white knight' came in and complained about it to the AD I would still take care of the problem but I would have a whole lot of resentment toward you because you are trying to do my job as parent of my son. Tell the parents about it and if they don't do anything about it then wash your hands of it. Your son is your responsibility, sticking your nose in this will probably not help anything and more than likely will cause more hard feelings.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
With all due respect, people here can tell you that I am a real crazy lady about protecting young pitchers. So I don't want to hear about not caring or saying anything, because you do not know anything about me.
What I KNOW about you is, you only want to give lip service to protecting anyone. Either you believe something and are committed to it, or you aren’t
quote:This topic was about a player throwing 177 pitches, which is ridiculous and quite frankly pretty impossible for me to get a visual without seeing the kid struggle, but then it is possible he looked fine.
And that’s exactly why there has to be limitations, and they have to be followed. Those limits aren’t to punish knowledgeable coaches, they’re to protect the kids from unknowledgeable ones, or to protect the ones who LOOK fine, but aren’t. Why is it so terrible to simply want more pitchers to be developed to spread the workload?
quote:Anyway we have had hours and hours of discussion here (sorry you missed most of it) over the years about what is right and what is wrong.
Trust me, I’ve missed nothing. This isn’t the only forum where these things are discussed.
quote:112 pitches the first game of the season, to me I am way passed the hysterical point, 112 late in season, it's not to be unexpected (I am assuming you are talking HS). There are some kids who can do that, there are many who can't and common sense should always prevail.
Don’t you see what you’re doing? 112 on the 1st day is bad, but 112 on the last day isn’t. Some kids can do it, some can’t. Those aren’t doing anything but ducking the issue because they aren’t rules, they’re rules of thumb. Why? Because there are pitchers like my son who played winter ball and was more prepared to throw on the opening day of the HS season than most others were on the final day.
The thing is, there are so many players, so many coaches, and so many different situations, there has to be some basic rules laid down, otherwise there are gonna be those who out of ignorance or intent, go beyond what would be considered common sense. Rules aren’t made for the majority.
quote:I got to go with some things stated here, the real damage can occur when one throws too much in one inning. Damage can occur not being on a routine and then doing too much, too many of one pitch, who knows, we all know that over use is the culprit, 100 pitches or a bit above with enough rest and specific excercises for recovery, etc should not harm a HS player.
Actually, though there is some proof indicating what you say is true, no one really knows what the breaking point is. The best that can be said for sure is, the more pitches thrown without rest, the more susceptible the player is to injury. The problem is, there are still people who believe that all that matters is the pitches per inning. IOW, if a player averages 14-16 PPI, he’s good to go.
Trouble is, 10-9-11-10-42 is averaging just a smidge over 16 PPI. Obviously there was some kind of problem in that 5th, but what the heck, by your thinking, he’s a HS pitcher and should be able to throw another inning or two.
quote:Is there an epidemic of blown elbows, torn rotator cuffs, yes there has been, that's why there are recommendations for pitch counts and rest periods.
Then why are you so much against using them?
quote:FYI, in HS our pitcher looked like he could have a future on the mound, we watched carefully and did what we had to when we thought he had done too much. Some of the other guys, had no intention to ever go further than HS, they threw every chance they got and no one cared.
And that makes it OK to risk an arm injury? Sorry, but to me the kid who has no intention of going any further has just as much value as one who plans on going to the MLHOF.
quote:If you feel that you should be the one to educate the parent on arm health face to face, I say go for it, but as I said and still beleive, be prepared with all facts, not just what you think is right or wrong.
What facts is it that you want? If you want absolute proof of what causes arm injury in pitchers, there is none. But if that’s what you want, why does 177 pitches bother you?
Who are you trying to convince of what? We all agree with you that there has to be something in place to ensure pitchers don't abuse their arms or coaches absue their arms or parents abuse their arms. You're trying to tell us that it's your job to come in and save the day. That is where you're going to find people disagreeing with you and they're right. People will listen if you come to them and say something but go over their heads to the AD / principal or whoever is stepping on toes.
Wklink,
I truly do understand what you’re saying, but somehow I’m missing your point. You’d be APPALED if your coach’s son did that to a child, but you’d do what? Just sit there being appalled? What if he did it to 3 children over and over again?
Why shouldn’t someone get directly involved if they see something terribly wrong happening, or a violation of some rule taking place? I don’t get all hot and bothered if there’s a rule that says you can’t paint your house purple with yellow polka dots on it, but I do get antsy when a child’s welfare is at risk, my son or yours.
You’re 100% correct that “The primary responsibility for the welfare of the boy in question lies with the parents.” But that doesn’t mean no one else has any. Sometime the parents simply don’t understand. That doesn’t make them bad people, just ignorant. Their children should be made to suffer for their parent’s ignorance, nor for the ignorance of some coach.
Just so you know, my son has been done playing ball for more than 5 years now, but while he did, I “meddled” all the time. And while there were a couple coaches who considered me a PITA parent, for every coach who resented me, there were dozens of parents who thanked me. I think you underestimate the appreciation of people when they become aware of what you’ve done for their child.
Well, if you were to resent me because I did what I could to protect your son, I’d have you pegged as a fool. Why? Because to me, that kid’s welfare wasn’t worth my risking that you would have dealt with the issue in a way that would insure it wouldn’t happen again.
However, chances are, if my son and yours were playing on the same team, I’d have a pretty good idea as to whether you were an ignorant parent or one who would likely do something about what had taken place. If I thought you were gonna do something about it, I’d offer my support all the way because I know how the system works. One parent raising the Dickens or complaining usually gets laughed at as soon as they leave the room, but as in all things, there is strength in numbers.
There’s an underlying problem here that no one has talk about so far. It’s the one where parent won’t say anything because they don’t want to jeopardize their child’s place on the team. How many things similar to this have gone completely left alone because Mum & Dad don’t want to risk Jr’s playing time?
I truly do understand what you’re saying, but somehow I’m missing your point. You’d be APPALED if your coach’s son did that to a child, but you’d do what? Just sit there being appalled? What if he did it to 3 children over and over again?
Why shouldn’t someone get directly involved if they see something terribly wrong happening, or a violation of some rule taking place? I don’t get all hot and bothered if there’s a rule that says you can’t paint your house purple with yellow polka dots on it, but I do get antsy when a child’s welfare is at risk, my son or yours.
You’re 100% correct that “The primary responsibility for the welfare of the boy in question lies with the parents.” But that doesn’t mean no one else has any. Sometime the parents simply don’t understand. That doesn’t make them bad people, just ignorant. Their children should be made to suffer for their parent’s ignorance, nor for the ignorance of some coach.
Just so you know, my son has been done playing ball for more than 5 years now, but while he did, I “meddled” all the time. And while there were a couple coaches who considered me a PITA parent, for every coach who resented me, there were dozens of parents who thanked me. I think you underestimate the appreciation of people when they become aware of what you’ve done for their child.
Well, if you were to resent me because I did what I could to protect your son, I’d have you pegged as a fool. Why? Because to me, that kid’s welfare wasn’t worth my risking that you would have dealt with the issue in a way that would insure it wouldn’t happen again.
However, chances are, if my son and yours were playing on the same team, I’d have a pretty good idea as to whether you were an ignorant parent or one who would likely do something about what had taken place. If I thought you were gonna do something about it, I’d offer my support all the way because I know how the system works. One parent raising the Dickens or complaining usually gets laughed at as soon as they leave the room, but as in all things, there is strength in numbers.
There’s an underlying problem here that no one has talk about so far. It’s the one where parent won’t say anything because they don’t want to jeopardize their child’s place on the team. How many things similar to this have gone completely left alone because Mum & Dad don’t want to risk Jr’s playing time?
MANY MANY MANY!!!!
Common sense in all cases should be paramount. A coach should know his pitchers abilities and the players should know their abilities. Proper mechanics and conditioning play a huge part in just how much and how frequent a pitcher can throw without a greater risk of injury. Overuse is now seen as the leading cause of serious injury in pitchers' arms. But defining "overuse" is controversial from one person to the next and from age group to age group.
Overuse in its proper context is whenever injury occurs due to improper rest between outings or too much exertion in one event leading to a breakdown of the muscular dynamics. For each pitcher those numbers are going to be different. Some may be able to go a 100-125 pitches per outing and only have a few days rest while for others those numbers might be 50-60 pitches that with twice the rest afterwards.
In all cases, being responsible and knowing the situation is paramount. I can gaurentee you that the majority of coaches will throw a pitcher to the point of overuse from time to time, especially if it means getting an important win or getting a pitcher to battle it out and get out of a long inning. I have seen it on every level including pretty much every MLB team. Coaches, and the players themselves need better discipline on their limits and strictly stick to that.
It would be cool if they had a special mobile medical tool that could quickly gauge the condtion of the arm after every outing being able to pick up on the condition of the muscles tendons and ligaments. Imagine if they had this tool and it picked up small overuse tearing in an elbow and then pitchers were given proper time to recover and get strong again before they pitched? Injuries would be drastically reduced.
Overuse in its proper context is whenever injury occurs due to improper rest between outings or too much exertion in one event leading to a breakdown of the muscular dynamics. For each pitcher those numbers are going to be different. Some may be able to go a 100-125 pitches per outing and only have a few days rest while for others those numbers might be 50-60 pitches that with twice the rest afterwards.
In all cases, being responsible and knowing the situation is paramount. I can gaurentee you that the majority of coaches will throw a pitcher to the point of overuse from time to time, especially if it means getting an important win or getting a pitcher to battle it out and get out of a long inning. I have seen it on every level including pretty much every MLB team. Coaches, and the players themselves need better discipline on their limits and strictly stick to that.
It would be cool if they had a special mobile medical tool that could quickly gauge the condtion of the arm after every outing being able to pick up on the condition of the muscles tendons and ligaments. Imagine if they had this tool and it picked up small overuse tearing in an elbow and then pitchers were given proper time to recover and get strong again before they pitched? Injuries would be drastically reduced.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
Who are you trying to convince of what? We all agree with you that there has to be something in place to ensure pitchers don't abuse their arms or coaches absue their arms or parents abuse their arms. You're trying to tell us that it's your job to come in and save the day. That is where you're going to find people disagreeing with you and they're right. People will listen if you come to them and say something but go over their heads to the AD / principal or whoever is stepping on toes.
I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything, other than to not let things slide that put a child at risk. All I’ve done is to say people who have the knowledge and understanding shouldn’t allow those who don’t to suffer.
I never once said it was MY job to play the white knight, but rather that its everyone’s job to do what’s in the best interests of a child’s health, even if it means when he’s 60 YO he doesn’t have the memory of getting the final out in the big game.
You may think of me however you like, but when you try to equate going to the AD, principal, or any other higher authority in the name of a child, all I can say is, better safe than sorry, and if no one every looked out for anyone else, it would be a very sorry world to live in.
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
Do your thing Stats. No one here is going to stop you. Go on your mission and good luck to you. The people responding to you have been around the game a long time and understand how this stuff works. Your concerned with pitch counts. Good.
Actually Coach_May, I’m concerned about much more than pitch counts, but you’ve gotta start someplace.
Really. What else could anyone do to try to mitigate all the pitching injuries? What is the root cause of them? PITCHING! Of course that’s it, and there would be no more pitching injuries if there were no more pitching. But of course that would mean there was no more baseball as we know it.
The result is, there has to be some way to mitigate the problem. That mitigation has been determined to be reducing the workload of pitchers. The argument is, what that workload should be and how it should be determined, and its complicated by considering who is being looked at.
I couldn’t care less about a pro athlete. If they want to risk their career, that’s their prerogative. But its different for kids. Everyone sees a ML pitcher throw 135 pitches, and suddenly they project the kids into that paradigm. But as the saying goes, kids aren’t miniature adults.
Unfortunately, there aren’t any hard and fast rules, and every Tom, Dick, and Harriet has their own ideas about it. In the end, everyone agrees on some limitation, but they all believe their way is the right way, and that’s where the arguments begin.
Pitch counts have been an issue of debate for about 15 years now, and as information becomes available, the debate changes. In just the last 5 years there’s been so much progress, its almost unbelievable, and I’m sure that in the next 5 there will be even more. But progress doesn’t take place by sitting on the sidelines and watching the grass grow. Progress is a slow and painful process that not only takes time, but takes even more time to evaluate and adjust.
Yes Coach_May, I am concerned about pitch counts, but there’s a lot more there than meets the eye.
I think you're a nice guy who's going to make a lot of people upset when you speak on their kid's behalf when it's none of your business. What are you going to do when you go to the AD to report that a kid (not your's) threw 140 pitches and the parent thinks you're only doing that to take playing time away from their son. Not that you're looking out for their welfare and well being.
If you feel a kid is being overused the only thing that you can do is go to the parents and tell them. They may be clueless to pitch counts or not at the game or just don't care but once you tell them it's now their responsibility - not your's to go over their head.
If you feel a kid is being overused the only thing that you can do is go to the parents and tell them. They may be clueless to pitch counts or not at the game or just don't care but once you tell them it's now their responsibility - not your's to go over their head.
quote:Why shouldn’t someone get directly involved if they see something terribly wrong happening, or a violation of some rule taking place? I don’t get all hot and bothered if there’s a rule that says you can’t paint your house purple with yellow polka dots on it, but I do get antsy when a child’s welfare is at risk, my son or yours.
Because if it's not your kid, it's not your place to butt in. Maybe that parent don't want somebody intervening on their behalf. I would just stay out of it.
No one has an answer for every arm injury. I think there are some things that might help.
People usually complain about radar guns, but they might be an important tool in protecting a pitcher.
I agree with Gingerbread Man when he says all pitchers are different. I also believe that mechanics, muscular dynamics, genetics, all play a part in "when" a pitcher suffers arm damage. Universal pitch counts don't make sense IMO. That would be like having a universal distance for runners or universal weight for weight lifters.
Because we always use radar guns, certain things become apparent over time. We have seen pitchers that seem to be rolling along getting outs long after they have lost their best stuff and best velocity. We have seen pitchers that are done, yet they stay in the game because no one is scoring off of them. Often this is said to be a major advantage... Pitcher can be successful without his good stuff. When you are sitting there with the radar gun and a pitcher has been throwing in the 90s for 4 innings and then all of a sudden in the 5th his fastball is topping out in the mid 80s. That pitcher is done for the day IMO! Throwing more pitches is not only dangerous, it is not conducive towards winning the game. And we have seen many pitchers getting rocked after they have lost their velocity.
Back when I was a college coach we gunned every pitch every game. When we knew a pitcher was losing velocity we would replace him. I'm not talking about one pitch, but you can easily tell when a pitcher has lost velocity. This is not so easy to see from the dugout. We also conditioned very well, even using Karate workouts in the off season. And we did have strict pitch counts, but they were different pitch counts for different pitchers. In 20 years of coaching, 7 in college we had one arm injury (shoulder). No TJ surgeries! This surely was a lot of luck, but it wasn't ALL luck.
So is the radar gun the solution or the problem? Really, I don't think it is either. But we have had coaches say that their pitcher was still throwing well in the 7th inning, when we knew he was done in the 5th inning. We have also seen pitchers reach peak velocity after 100 pitches and others lose velocity after 20 pitches. So even though the gun might not be the answer, wouldn't it be at least helpful information to those interested in decreasing arm damage? I only add this for discussion purposes. Obviously there is much more to all of this.
People usually complain about radar guns, but they might be an important tool in protecting a pitcher.
I agree with Gingerbread Man when he says all pitchers are different. I also believe that mechanics, muscular dynamics, genetics, all play a part in "when" a pitcher suffers arm damage. Universal pitch counts don't make sense IMO. That would be like having a universal distance for runners or universal weight for weight lifters.
Because we always use radar guns, certain things become apparent over time. We have seen pitchers that seem to be rolling along getting outs long after they have lost their best stuff and best velocity. We have seen pitchers that are done, yet they stay in the game because no one is scoring off of them. Often this is said to be a major advantage... Pitcher can be successful without his good stuff. When you are sitting there with the radar gun and a pitcher has been throwing in the 90s for 4 innings and then all of a sudden in the 5th his fastball is topping out in the mid 80s. That pitcher is done for the day IMO! Throwing more pitches is not only dangerous, it is not conducive towards winning the game. And we have seen many pitchers getting rocked after they have lost their velocity.
Back when I was a college coach we gunned every pitch every game. When we knew a pitcher was losing velocity we would replace him. I'm not talking about one pitch, but you can easily tell when a pitcher has lost velocity. This is not so easy to see from the dugout. We also conditioned very well, even using Karate workouts in the off season. And we did have strict pitch counts, but they were different pitch counts for different pitchers. In 20 years of coaching, 7 in college we had one arm injury (shoulder). No TJ surgeries! This surely was a lot of luck, but it wasn't ALL luck.
So is the radar gun the solution or the problem? Really, I don't think it is either. But we have had coaches say that their pitcher was still throwing well in the 7th inning, when we knew he was done in the 5th inning. We have also seen pitchers reach peak velocity after 100 pitches and others lose velocity after 20 pitches. So even though the gun might not be the answer, wouldn't it be at least helpful information to those interested in decreasing arm damage? I only add this for discussion purposes. Obviously there is much more to all of this.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
People usually complain about radar guns, but they might be an important tool in protecting a pitcher.
When you are sitting there with the radar gun and a pitcher has been throwing in the 90s for 4 innings and then all of a sudden in the 5th his fastball is topping out in the mid 80s. That pitcher is done for the day IMO!
Thank you for this. We protected our TB pitchers using this method. Kids will start falling over, not using their trunk, and mostly using their arm.
Interesting discussion.......
1.) Any high school coach, will never ever throw one of my sons 177 pitches period. My sons may never play past high school, but they might want to take part in other activities, and need their shoulder/elbow. If a high school coach tried to pull this ****, we would leave...and it would be his fault we left, his fault we that it might hurt the team and so on....my sons arm is more important than any high school game, team etc. Now we are lucky we have a great high school coach and he is very strick about pitch counts and days of rest, but you know what he has developed a lot of pitchers so we don't really even worry about it. I began going to high school games to see how this coach coached when my sons were in middle school. So if I felt that I needed to make a change I could do so early on.
2.) If this were a teammate, I would have a talk with his parents, explain my take on it, and say good luck to you. I would not take it any further, at first when I read the post I was mad and wanted to the coach to pay for his mistakes, but I realized it's not my place to do anything but alert the players parents and move on with my own.
1.) Any high school coach, will never ever throw one of my sons 177 pitches period. My sons may never play past high school, but they might want to take part in other activities, and need their shoulder/elbow. If a high school coach tried to pull this ****, we would leave...and it would be his fault we left, his fault we that it might hurt the team and so on....my sons arm is more important than any high school game, team etc. Now we are lucky we have a great high school coach and he is very strick about pitch counts and days of rest, but you know what he has developed a lot of pitchers so we don't really even worry about it. I began going to high school games to see how this coach coached when my sons were in middle school. So if I felt that I needed to make a change I could do so early on.
2.) If this were a teammate, I would have a talk with his parents, explain my take on it, and say good luck to you. I would not take it any further, at first when I read the post I was mad and wanted to the coach to pay for his mistakes, but I realized it's not my place to do anything but alert the players parents and move on with my own.
PGStaff is correct. Universal pitch counts just do not make sense.
Here is a thought for you. You are right not to compare adults to kids. Kids are much more resilient than adults. How many have watched your kids do something and wonder how in the world they did not break anything, and they just jump up and do it again? Compare that to adults…..How many of you have woke up in the morning feeling “car wreck” sore from just sleeping?
I would pay $1000 to feel like I did when I was a 22 year old college athlete.
For the record, yes there are way too many kids throwing way too many pitches.
Here is a thought for you. You are right not to compare adults to kids. Kids are much more resilient than adults. How many have watched your kids do something and wonder how in the world they did not break anything, and they just jump up and do it again? Compare that to adults…..How many of you have woke up in the morning feeling “car wreck” sore from just sleeping?
I would pay $1000 to feel like I did when I was a 22 year old college athlete.
For the record, yes there are way too many kids throwing way too many pitches.
What do people think?
Are the pitch counts today much different than pitch counts 20-30-40-100 years ago?
There are stories from earlier days, where pitchers would throw both games of a double header. Obviously no one would do that today, would they?
Pitchers years ago threw more innings than pitchers today. More complete games, more innings, more games, often less recovery time, more pitches.
The things that seem to stand out are... I believe pitchers today, as a whole, throw harder. Year's ago there was no surgery for arm injuries.
Please don't think that I'm OK with abusing pitchers. But there is risk and reward involved for those entertaining big thoughts. The safest pitch couint is ZERO pitches, the most dangerous pitch count is unknown for any individual pitcher.
Too much... You get injured
Too little... Your not good enough
To reach your potential you have to test your limits. Competitive kids will do this, they absolutely do need supervision though.
Are the pitch counts today much different than pitch counts 20-30-40-100 years ago?
There are stories from earlier days, where pitchers would throw both games of a double header. Obviously no one would do that today, would they?
Pitchers years ago threw more innings than pitchers today. More complete games, more innings, more games, often less recovery time, more pitches.
The things that seem to stand out are... I believe pitchers today, as a whole, throw harder. Year's ago there was no surgery for arm injuries.
Please don't think that I'm OK with abusing pitchers. But there is risk and reward involved for those entertaining big thoughts. The safest pitch couint is ZERO pitches, the most dangerous pitch count is unknown for any individual pitcher.
Too much... You get injured
Too little... Your not good enough
To reach your potential you have to test your limits. Competitive kids will do this, they absolutely do need supervision though.
This is an interesting subject, especially for those of us who pitched many years ago, or have kids pitching today. When I was playing in HS, there was no mention of pitch counts that I can recall. That is not to say the coach did not have it in his mind, but it was never mentioned as a reason to pull a kid after X number of pitches.
Yet for whatever reason when my son first started to pitch at age seven, pitch counts were standard discussion. I remember reading the ASMI pitch count guidelines as well as the type of pitches kids should be throwing at different ages. As a result I became a parent who used a clicker once my son became a regular starter and/or was playing for multiple teams in a given season. The more research I did, the more it made sense not to have kids throw over a certain amount, especially when they were obviously gassed. Yet as has been pointed out, some kids might be gassed after a dozen pitches to where their mechanics break down, vs. a kid who can go beyond the recommended numbers and still keep his mechanics tight. As a result I think guidelines are just that, and should be used by coaches as parents as a tool, not a hard and fast rule.
Here is a story that happened with my son that has a similar theme.
Not being one of the demanding parents that coaches encounter, I didn't discussed pulling my kid in a game based on pitch counts. Then again he typically had very good coaching and they always watched after his health. However one day I arrived to a travel game late( with a new team ), and did not know how many pitches my son had thrown. When he went out to start the 5th inning, the opposing coach (who was an acquaintance of mine) sent one of his kids to get me. I went over and was told that my son had already thrown X amount of pitches, and he felt it was too many. I actually could not believe his pitch count was that high, but watched my son closely that inning. Sure enough he was not extending and finishing like he typically would even though he was still hitting the strike zone. So after the 5th I asked our coach what his pitch count was. He said he was not keeping track, so I discreetly asked my son how he felt, and to my surprise he said he was tired. Never once had my son ever indicated he was tired, even after a game, so I knew then that he was done based on what I had seen, the number of pitches, and what my son was telling me.
I informed our coach how many he had thrown based on another persons count and that he needed to get someone else to finish the game. He replied that "this was an important game and he needed my son to finish since he was pitching so well". At that point I respectfully told him my son was done for the day and he had better get another pitcher to warm up.
My focus as a parent was obviously different than this travel coach, who was only interested in winning at the expense of the kids well being. So when I read this story about a kid who had a pitch count of 177, I have to wonder if the parents were even present or aware of what was happening.
I think Nolan is right about pitchers not throwing enough, but when it comes to young kids who are still growing and developing, pitch counts are probably a useful tool. Granted a kid should not be pulled mid inning if he reaches the recommended number for his age. However there is no reason for a little league coach to ride a kids arm just to get a trophy that will collect dust on a shelf.
Yet for whatever reason when my son first started to pitch at age seven, pitch counts were standard discussion. I remember reading the ASMI pitch count guidelines as well as the type of pitches kids should be throwing at different ages. As a result I became a parent who used a clicker once my son became a regular starter and/or was playing for multiple teams in a given season. The more research I did, the more it made sense not to have kids throw over a certain amount, especially when they were obviously gassed. Yet as has been pointed out, some kids might be gassed after a dozen pitches to where their mechanics break down, vs. a kid who can go beyond the recommended numbers and still keep his mechanics tight. As a result I think guidelines are just that, and should be used by coaches as parents as a tool, not a hard and fast rule.
Here is a story that happened with my son that has a similar theme.
Not being one of the demanding parents that coaches encounter, I didn't discussed pulling my kid in a game based on pitch counts. Then again he typically had very good coaching and they always watched after his health. However one day I arrived to a travel game late( with a new team ), and did not know how many pitches my son had thrown. When he went out to start the 5th inning, the opposing coach (who was an acquaintance of mine) sent one of his kids to get me. I went over and was told that my son had already thrown X amount of pitches, and he felt it was too many. I actually could not believe his pitch count was that high, but watched my son closely that inning. Sure enough he was not extending and finishing like he typically would even though he was still hitting the strike zone. So after the 5th I asked our coach what his pitch count was. He said he was not keeping track, so I discreetly asked my son how he felt, and to my surprise he said he was tired. Never once had my son ever indicated he was tired, even after a game, so I knew then that he was done based on what I had seen, the number of pitches, and what my son was telling me.
I informed our coach how many he had thrown based on another persons count and that he needed to get someone else to finish the game. He replied that "this was an important game and he needed my son to finish since he was pitching so well". At that point I respectfully told him my son was done for the day and he had better get another pitcher to warm up.
My focus as a parent was obviously different than this travel coach, who was only interested in winning at the expense of the kids well being. So when I read this story about a kid who had a pitch count of 177, I have to wonder if the parents were even present or aware of what was happening.
I think Nolan is right about pitchers not throwing enough, but when it comes to young kids who are still growing and developing, pitch counts are probably a useful tool. Granted a kid should not be pulled mid inning if he reaches the recommended number for his age. However there is no reason for a little league coach to ride a kids arm just to get a trophy that will collect dust on a shelf.
quote:Perhaps you wouldn’t take the time to grab a toddler playing in the street and at least move him/her to the sidewalk, but I grew up in a time when all but the most callous and uncaring would do it without hesitation.
A particularly pathetic attempt at a low blow with an accusation that has nothing to do with the topic at hand having absolutely no place in a mature forum. It reveals a lack of basic courtesy and civil discourse.
quote:Pardon my French, but that’s a pantload, and exactly the kind of thinking that keeps the problem from being mitigated.
Neither your French nor your English are pardoned.
quote:The problem is, in too many coach’s minds, the pitcher is a sac of meat who’s well being is never as important as winning a stupid baseball game.
I have yet to witness a stupid baseball game. I hold the game in too high a regard to ever refer to it as stupid. I will admit to having witnessed many stupid people.
quote:That’s a argument that’s been issued many times, and I must say its one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. You’ve obviously never had a child who has great memories about the big game he threw in HS, but is now hooked on Vicodin or some other equally or more noxious drug, because at 25 he’s in so much pain he can’t sleep.
If this is the root cause of your angst over pitch counts and pitcher's abuse, then I understand why you feel driven to demonise coaches. Just understand that this is not the experience of most other parents, and that our opinions are largely formed by our own experiences which in my case have been extremely good.
quote:Its really sad that there are so few coaches now-a-days who really overuse/abuse pitchers, but it’s the same ones over and over again! Why? Because people like you don’t want to simply weed them out.
I don't think it is my responsibility to weed out coaches. You can feel free to start up a website and post the names of coaches that abuse pitchers. Maybe you can start a rating system similar to rate my professor and that way parents can choose which school to send their kid to and avoid all these conflicts. It is your pet peeve. Take it where ever you want.
I am fighting the feeling that I have had this debate with you before and since you are a new member here, without much of a track record, my instincts might be right. So, out of respect for those that have poured their heart and soul into this forum, it is my intention to avoid throwing gasoline on a smoldering fire. Au revoir.....pardon my French.
quote:There are plenty of very knowledgeable people who have made reasonable recommendations about such things, and there’s no reason not to pay attention to them, other than to pander to some ridiculous testosterone induced fever.
Probably a little too much testosterone.
I just read an article in a local newspaper, Benton Il. high school team just threw a pitcher 173 pitches in 6 2/3 innings.......
plus the warm up and the between inning pitches, glad my son does not go to school there
plus the warm up and the between inning pitches, glad my son does not go to school there
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It would be cool if they had a special mobile medical tool that could quickly gauge the condtion of the arm after every outing being able to pick up on the condition of the muscles tendons and ligaments. Imagine if they had this tool and it picked up small overuse tearing in an elbow and then pitchers were given proper time to recover and get strong again before they pitched? Injuries would be drastically reduced.
They have them developed, they don't use them.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
No one has an answer for every arm injury. I think there are some things that might help.
People usually complain about radar guns, but they might be an important tool in protecting a pitcher. …
Hmmmm. Interesting take on guns.
While I’m positive you’ve gunned more pitchers in any one season than I have in my entire life, neither my personal experience nor any preponderance of evidence I’ve seen has shown that its anything near universal that a pitcher will lose velocity as he tires. That being said, I’d be willing to bet that most pitchers would show tendencies that would show up if every pitch by every pitcher were measured the way Pitch(F/X) does.
Here’s the trouble. Even if it did show on some measuring device, you have the same problem as with all measuring in baseball below the ML level. With Pitch(F/X) there’s no one holding a guy and having to pay attention, or trying to guess what pitch was thrown. In college there’s “some” chance a coach might have someone behind the backstop and doing a good job, but as the levels get lower, the chances of that happening become slimmer.
In the end, I think its almost unbelievable that any coach would yank a pitcher for any reason as long as he was getting outs, unless he was forced to.
Stats,
Are you saying that pitchers do not lose velocity after a certain point (or pitch count)?
Whether it is being tired, mechanics breaking down or injured, or a combination of the above, there are pitchers who lose velocity after one inning. And there are pitchers who can maintain velocity for a long time. But there is always a point where pitchers lose velocity... Every pitcher!
The problem is that every pitcher is different. The gun tells us when each one loses velocity. To me that is valuable information. IMO the best coaches take the pitcher out "before" he fails. It's hard to maintain (repeat) mechanics when the body and arm get tired. That is the point adrenalin becomes the enemy.
Are you saying that pitchers do not lose velocity after a certain point (or pitch count)?
Whether it is being tired, mechanics breaking down or injured, or a combination of the above, there are pitchers who lose velocity after one inning. And there are pitchers who can maintain velocity for a long time. But there is always a point where pitchers lose velocity... Every pitcher!
The problem is that every pitcher is different. The gun tells us when each one loses velocity. To me that is valuable information. IMO the best coaches take the pitcher out "before" he fails. It's hard to maintain (repeat) mechanics when the body and arm get tired. That is the point adrenalin becomes the enemy.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
What do people think?
I agree with Nolan Ryan on this one.......
What does pitch f/x have to do with this.
Stats,
Did you pitch at one time, did you become injured?
Stats,
Did you pitch at one time, did you become injured?
HS PITCHERS ARE OLD ENOUGH TO TELL THE COACH THAT IS ENOUGH---CASE CLOSED
I agree with Nolan Ryan as well, but one needs to be careful with the interpretation of his notion (and TRHit's signature). Throwing is very different than pitching off a mound. I believe young pitchers need to throw more, but I do not believe throwing off a mound more is healthy. Throwing off a mound creates much more tension on the muscular system that is required to decelerate the body and is much more likely to cause injury than just plain ole regular flat ground throwing.