Enough is enough.........Pitch Counts- 177

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I believe pitchers today, as a whole, throw harder. Year's ago there was no surgery for arm injuries

I believe pitchers today OVERthrow. Years ago, there were no pitching coaches for eight year-olds. Kids just threw they way they threw.

The only time my son had velo loss was during times he was injured.

All pitchers are different, but many throw their last pitch sometimes at the highest velo that outing.

Many pitchers have signs that they are tiring, mine drops the shoulder, it is so obvious.

It takes a good coach who is familiar with the pitcher to watch closely for those signs. In HS, that's a pretty tough call, unless there is one specific person that is keeping their eye out specifically, I don't see how a HC can manage a game, call a game, and watch the pitcher all at the same time.

Some players jump from team to team, so does anyone really get to know what to watch for, the parent can't be at every game, that's why it is important to consider who your son plays for, I know in HS that's tough, but if it is a coach unfamiliar with the player, should the parent speak to the coach if he sees signs of fatigue and the coach doesn't?

Where is overuse in MLB? These are grown men getting paid LOTS of money to hang in there for as long as possible. Don't compare what you've seen there to what happens on a HS baseball field.

What should a parent do if son is clearly in need of leaving the mound? Well - consider why your son is playing baseball - what is the goal? For every player the goal should be bigger than any one particular game - regardless of the game. Then consider what the risks might be and what the odds are that a neagative result may occur. If the risk is significant - injury - and the goal is bigger than the game - what are parents worried about? I know the answer - angering the coach - upsetting the player - looking foolish in general. I am perfectly willing to do any of these things if the welfare of my son is at stake. I would rather have an upset HS Coach than a son who is out for a season or longer due to a preventable injury. In hindsight I am guessing that there are more parents that have had sons injured and wished they had said something than there are the other way around.

It does seem that there are a lot of coaches that do not pay particular attention to pitch counts. My son played High School JV baseball this year. I saw many games were the starting pitcher went the distance. My son being one of them. He actually had 5 complete games in six starts, however he has always been good about keeping his pitch counts down. One outing though he did throw 110 pitches. I made sure that after that he was done for the rest of the week. Bottom line is that parents need to know their and watch their sons pitch counts.

quote:

I believe pitchers today OVERthrow. Years ago, there were no pitching coaches for eight year-olds. Kids just threw they way they threw.

AntzDad,

I think pitchers since the beginning of time have OVER thrown. I do agree with you that there is something good about kids throwing naturally... "threw the way they threw"... The body has a way of telling you how you are able to throw the ball the best way. It could be that a lot of that individual "feel" has been replaced by so called "correct" mechanics over the years.

Anyway, I remember my childhood extremely well for some odd reason. I had a good arm and really enjoyed showing it off every chance I got. It seemed that every kid I knew who had a good arm was the same way. The powerful fastball was the big deal back then too. In fact, I think things are about the same these days. The big difference is that back in the old days we might throw all day. Then go home and play "burn out" with the neighbor kids.

Back then the general rule seemed to be, leave him out there as long as possible. Relief pitchers... what were they? Never heard of a pitch count. Never heard of TJ surgery, didn't know what a radar gun was, though I do remember some kids that throw harder as a 13 year old than they did in high school. Guessing that was a result of injury.

I often wonder to this day how much better (or worse) I or others would have been had there been a good pitching coach around. I'm 64 and can't reach very high with my right arm.

Back in the day we were always playing ball in the summer. We were always throwing something. All day long. then if we were scheduled played a game at night. then were at it again the next day. Of course today is so much better with everything organized and regulated.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

I believe pitchers today OVERthrow. Years ago, there were no pitching coaches for eight year-olds. Kids just threw they way they threw.

AntzDad,

I often wonder to this day how much better (or worse) I or others would have been had there been a good pitching coach around. I'm 64 and can't reach very high with my right arm.

I'm a little younger and seen alot less baseball, but I can't really think of many reasons not to not have a solid set of pitching fundamentals, just as soon as possible.

Just as I would not recomend trying to self-teach hittng a golf ball, play guitar or perform statistical analysis. I'm with you and probably stating the obvious. Too many light bulb moments when kids take pitching lessons from qualified instructors.

I personally think that pitchers today don't really throw any harder than they did in the decades since past. A lot is credited to technology, dedicated pitching lessons and coaches trained in mechanics teaching etc. But in truth, the hardest throwing kids I watch locally have never really had any training or anything specific technology speaking to improve their velocity. I am not suggesting that those tools don't help some kids or even most, I am suggesting that we put too much stock ang hype into all of that and forget where hard throwers come from.

I could just about gaurentee that you could take any MLB pitcher that throws hard and take him back 50 years and he would still throw just as hard growing up in that era. The only difference we have now is that we have a much larger pool of players to choose from and thus the criteria for choosing has changed. Genetics, desire, work ethic, and conditioning have always been the drive of hard throwers in any era of baseball. Even with the basic mechanics, not much has changed at all in the past 75-100 years. Sure, they may have had higher leg kicks and more gymnastics getting into the power position, but from that moment on nothing has really changed. Batting averages have remained basically the same for a long time, a pitcher's era has remained relatively the same, etc.

This all tells me that todays hard throwing pitchers are not any faster or better than yester-years flamethrowers. Every decade since the competetive fastball has had their fair share of hard throwing flame-throwers and if we had a gun I wouldn't be a bit surprized to seee all of them throw with pretty identical velocity. We parade Chapman around as some great wonder and yet, every decade we have seen tripple digits on the gun. Even going back to Bob Feller, he was paraded around as an amazing flame-thrower who was clocked at the plate at around 100 mph. So, is he any different than Chapman? Thye basically threw with identical velocities in excess of 104 mph when they wanted too on occasion. Bob Feller had a long carreer also. Back in his day the average MLB pitcher still probably threw around the same velocity as todays average MLB pitcher.

So, it begs the question- who was teaching the flamethrowers of the past to throw so hard? I doubt it was Mommy taking little Bobby to his pitching lesson every Tuesday in the model T! Good pitchers pitch naturally- the velocity comes naturally to them because of the desire, heart, work ethic and conditioning they impose on themselves to throw harder. In some senses we have become corrupted with the idea and belief that little Bobby has to have pitching lessons and strict guidelines from "pitching gurus" in order to throw hard and have a career later on. Where is good old common sense? Have we become the society that believes that pitching a baseball is completely un-natural and somehow have to pay money to have kids learn some imposed "correct" way?

I remain skepticle

I just read the majority of this thread, so I apologize for jumping in late. I agree with the OP, 177 pitches in a game is crazy...But what should the pitch count be for a 16-18 year old HS pitcher? 90? 100? 120? Nobody knows the answer to that question because it differs from player to player. Years ago we didn't have pitch counts. I never wanted to come out of a game and I rarely did. I lied alot, and told my coach that I felt great, but I was in pain. I hung on the dugout to stretch my arm in between innings, caked Icy Hot and BenGay on my arm, and took plenty of aspirin. I have no doubt that I surpassed 125 pitches on a number of occasions. But I also realize that my velocity decreased after my senior of HS, and I had to change my pitching mechanics/arm-angle etc...in college. During my coaching days, I had always kept tabs on my players pitch counts throughout rec & travel ball beginning at age 9. I felt that I had a pretty good pulse on my son's arm...when he was tiring, and when things didn't seem right with him. Even with semi strict pitch counts and proper rest, he still encountered arm problems during his sophomore year of high school. He was diagnosed with a sprained UCL and did not pitch an inning his Soph season. His mechanics were/are considered sound, yet I know there's always room for improvement with young pitchers, and he's no exception. My son is a senior in HS and has pitched four complete games thus far and has logged a decent amount of innings. His coaches have done a good job of monitoring the pitch counts and slotted him in as the Friday starter to give him four days rest before his Wednesday game when he roams the outfield. He runs poles after the games in which he pitches, and I give him an ice massage at home when needed...hopefully the training staff does a good job at his college next year? I'm sure they'll be much better than Dad!

I disagree with Gingerbread Man's post above that players in the past throw just as hard as current players. I do however agree that the Top 5-10% of "Flame Throwers" from the past can "Gas It Up" with todays Top 5-10%. But as a whole, today's arms are much stronger, IMHO. I pitched in the 1980's in high school and a couple years in JC here in California. I was gunned on a few occasions, and topped out at 87-88. That was considered gas as a 17-18 year old twenty seven years ago, and is still a pretty good fastball, but isn't going to fill the stands with scouts these days. This season, my son has four kids on his team that have touched 90-92 (they sit 86-88), and two of the kids are 2012's. There are some pretty good arms out there, especially here in Southern California.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
I'm a little younger and seen alot less baseball, but I can't really think of many reasons not to not have a solid set of pitching fundamentals, just as soon as possible.

Fundamentals? Oh, of course. I just think 'technique' should wait until the fundamentals are solid. In other words, don't give Little Leaguers too much to think about.

Pretty sure my son threw well over 100 pitches in our play-off game before the ump took the ball away.

Cole and the ump.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
I'm a little younger and seen alot less baseball, but I can't really think of many reasons not to not have a solid set of pitching fundamentals, just as soon as possible.

Fundamentals? Oh, of course. I just think 'technique' should wait until the fundamentals are solid. In other words, don't give Little Leaguers too much to think about.

Most little kids (5 and under) run, throw, and swing a bat pretty close to how you should do it. Why? Because it is more efficient…..So what happens between 5 and the time I get them at age 15?

quote:

Originally posted by d8:

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
I'm a little younger and seen alot less baseball, but I can't really think of many reasons not to not have a solid set of pitching fundamentals, just as soon as possible.

Fundamentals? Oh, of course. I just think 'technique' should wait until the fundamentals are solid. In other words, don't give Little Leaguers too much to think about.

Most little kids (5 and under) run, throw, and swing a bat pretty close to how you should do it. Why? Because it is more efficient…..So what happens between 5 and the time I get them at age 15?

I'm assuming that is a rhetorical question? LOL

I've had a theory regarding pitchers today...I've had this theory for quite a while now. Of course it's just my opinion, but here goes...

I think many kids today are taught pitching mechanics that can actually allow them to throw harder than their body is ready for.

Sometimes it's just too much stress for young arms.

Kids today PITCH more than ever. Throwing isn't throwing many times now...it's training.

A kid today may go on the mound Monday and throw 90 pitches. Not so horrible as a HS age player.

But then the same kid goes to his pitching lesson that week. Then throws a bullpen. Then pitches for his other team later that week, and so on and so forth.

It seems like there are more and more position players getting to college and the minor leagues and then being converted to pitchers. I wonder if it's because their arms have suffered less abuse than kids who pitched from the time they could stand, all the way through HS and into college?

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
I think many kids today are taught pitching mechanics that can actually allow them to throw harder than their body is ready for.

I think so, too. Pretty sure this is what Swampboy was getting at recently, also. We're talking young kids, not high schoolers.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:

I disagree with Gingerbread Man's post above that players in the past throw just as hard as current players. I do however agree that the Top 5-10% of "Flame Throwers" from the past can "Gas It Up" with todays Top 5-10%. But as a whole, today's arms are much stronger, IMHO. I pitched in the 1980's in high school and a couple years in JC here in California. I was gunned on a few occasions, and topped out at 87-88. That was considered gas as a 17-18 year old twenty seven years ago, and is still a pretty good fastball, but isn't going to fill the stands with scouts these days. This season, my son has four kids on his team that have touched 90-92 (they sit 86-88), and two of the kids are 2012's. There are some pretty good arms out there, especially here in Southern California.

The difference between pitchers today versus yester-year is that there are a whole lot more of them now. This changes the criteria now because it is easier to get a higher concentration of flame-throwers at an event.

Take my son for example. He is not a flame-thrower by any means but he does throw pretty decent for his age (80 mph as a freshman). We have been to several camps and instructors and everyone of them asked who taught son to pitch- where he received instructions. He never had anyone teach him to throw hard or adjust his mechanics he did it all on his own from an early age of throwing balls against our concrete stairs over and over again since he was about 5 years old. That was his "heart" and "desire" for the game. He has had several college coaches and recruiters tell him to really protect his arm because he was going to be good later on when the strength and maturity arrived.

Now I don't mean to brag about son so much as to just explain that he is not the only kid on the block around my area with the same story. His team-mate on the HS team also throws decent and has never had a trainer ever tell him how to throw. His mechanics are as polished as my kids for such an early age and it shows because of the ease of effort they throw with having smooth arm circles and good release points.

I just know that it wouldn't of mattered when these kids were born, if they had the same heart and desire, they would have thrown the same in any era of baseball.

87-88 mph is still considered "gas" at the HS level. There are certainly not very many who can throw that hard at the HS level. I am pretty sure that the average HS velocity hasn't really changed.

My whole point is that too much stock is put into "todays throwers" as if they are doing something special above and beyond what kids did in decades past.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

Take my son for example. He is not a flame-thrower by any means but he does throw pretty decent for his age ...

Did he ever have arm problems?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Stats,

Are you saying that pitchers do not lose velocity after a certain point (or pitch count)?

Whether it is being tired, mechanics breaking down or injured, or a combination of the above, there are pitchers who lose velocity after one inning. And there are pitchers who can maintain velocity for a long time. But there is always a point where pitchers lose velocity... Every pitcher!

The problem is that every pitcher is different. The gun tells us when each one loses velocity. To me that is valuable information. IMO the best coaches take the pitcher out "before" he fails. It's hard to maintain (repeat) mechanics when the body and arm get tired. That is the point adrenalin becomes the enemy.

What I’m saying is, its not a simple as a pitcher started and was throwing his 4 seamer at 88 and when he drops to say 85 he’s fatigued. I think you’d agree that’s not the way it works.

I would think you’d also agree that in order to make an informed decision, you’d need historical data, and the more the better. Now how many people are gonna rush out and buy a gun based on your statement of “fact”, then track all the data points in order to get a true indication of what’s going on? More likely they’ll start using a gun without the accompanying things to make it an effective tool.

Also, I believe it totally depends on the level of the pitcher. The lower the level, the less repetitive the mechanics, and therefore the less reliable the reading.

In the end, I truly don’t’ believe there’s any “RIGHT” way to determine fatigue. For some, a velocity drop may well indicate fatigue, but for others a more valid indicator is strike percentage, and for others it may be the general ball location changing, such as from generally down to up. There are loads of other ways to tell, but none work equally well for all pitchers in all situations, and that’s where the skill comes in.

Again, to me everything depends on the situation. Its much easier the higher the level and the more skilled the staff. At the HSV level, I haven’t seen a great many programs that have either the equipment or the staff to get the data.

So in the end, all I can say is, while I agree that every pitcher will eventually lose velocity, I don’t believe it’s a reliable indicator to judge fatigue for all situations.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
What does pitch f/x have to do with this.

As far as I know, only pitch(f/x) and possibly Questec have the ability to get accurate data about pitches.

quote:

Did you pitch at one time, did you become injured?

Not me. I was able to throw a ball from behind the plate to 2nd base from a chair without getting up when I was 60 years old. Now the old age, bursitis and beginnings of arthritis are taking their toll, but that happens to everyone eventually.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
HS PITCHERS ARE OLD ENOUGH TO TELL THE COACH THAT IS ENOUGH---CASE CLOSED

Yes, they are old enough, but there aren’t many that are smart enough.

I agree stats4gnats, I have not seen too many pitchers that tell a high school coach that is enough, have seen plenty want to keep going.

I remember watching a 6'4 92 mph hour high school lefty a few years ago throw 169 pitches in a game.When asked about it the coach told the newspaper that he asked his pitcher and the pitcher said he could keep going, wow what a suprise. Thsi should not be left in the high school players hands but the coaches hands.

CASE CLOSED, please give us break trhit

If the HS player says he is okay whose fault is it for that player getting hurt if he does? IMO it is that player's fault. He put himself at risk. Not the coach. You can't blame a coach for listening to a player. The coach's job is to win games. correct? So, if he is told by a player who has carried his team all year most likely that he can keep going why would he take the player out of the game? He wouldn't! Yes, I'm just a player and I'm not nearly as wise as most of you, but you can't blame a coach for making a decision to win the game. That player had the chance to say no and he didn't.

quote:

In the end, I truly don’t’ believe there’s any “RIGHT” way to determine fatigue. For some, a velocity drop may well indicate fatigue, but for others a more valid indicator is strike percentage, and for others it may be the general ball location changing, such as from generally down to up. There are loads of other ways to tell, but none work equally well for all pitchers in all situations, and that’s where the skill comes in.

Again, to me everything depends on the situation. Its much easier the higher the level and the more skilled the staff. At the HSV level, I haven’t seen a great many programs that have either the equipment or the staff to get the data.

So in the end, all I can say is, while I agree that every pitcher will eventually lose velocity, I don’t believe it’s a reliable indicator to judge fatigue for all situations.

Good points stats. Obviously you can't use only one source of information, but any and all sources can be an indicator. Visual is by far the most common way to determine when a pitcher is fatigued. Sometimes it's as simple as seeing the results. Other things would include losing command, movement and velocity. Often these things happen together, but not always. This can be a result of mechanical flaws or it can be a result of being fatigued.

My point is... There are pitchers who still get outs despite experiencing fatigue or a change in mechanics. IMO, this is due to a large extent on luck. Often these pitchers that are done are left in the game due to this luck. The first guy any coach would ask should be the catcher. He is in the best position to know when a pitcher is losing it. The catcher often realizes this even before the pitcher. One of the greatest skills any coach can have is the ability to get the pitcher out of the game before he has completely lost it.

I don't think the gun is the only answer, but it can be very revealing. It's not a one or two pitch answer, but when a pitcher goes from 90 consistantly to 85-87, something is causing that. When his breaking ball goes from 78 to 73-74, something is causing that. When the changeup differential goes from 12-13 mph to 9-10 or 15-16, something is causing that. These things are near impossible to detect from the dugout. It could be a mechanical problem, it could be fatigue. But after a certain pitch count it is most likely fatigue, even if that fatigue is causing the mechanical problems. At that point it is time to go get the pitcher who has reached the danger zone.

Once again I think too much is made of the actual pitch count. Different pitchers reach this danger zone at different pitch counts IMO. Nolan Ryan could (and did) throw more pitches than anyone in baseball history. He also threw those pitches as hard as most anyone in history. Most people can't do that, he was different.

I don't know what the perfect pitch count (per game or per inning) for any individual pitcher is. The only real safe pitch count is ZERO. I'm sure we would all agree that the kid who threw 177 pitches was fatigued and probably deep into the danger zone. That seems abusive and when a starting pitcher throws without sufficient recovery time, that is also abusive.

Good discussion, many very good points. It reminds me of a discussion we had with a bunch of old buddies. What is normal? After a long debate we pretty much all agreed... None of us have ever known a person we could describe as normal.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
I've had a theory regarding pitchers today...I've had this theory for quite a while now. Of course it's just my opinion, but here goes...

I think many kids today are taught pitching mechanics that can actually allow them to throw harder than their body is ready for.

Sometimes it's just too much stress for young arms.

Kids today PITCH more than ever. Throwing isn't throwing many times now...it's training.

A kid today may go on the mound Monday and throw 90 pitches. Not so horrible as a HS age player.

But then the same kid goes to his pitching lesson that week. Then throws a bullpen. Then pitches for his other team later that week, and so on and so forth.

It seems like there are more and more position players getting to college and the minor leagues and then being converted to pitchers. I wonder if it's because their arms have suffered less abuse than kids who pitched from the time they could stand, all the way through HS and into college?

I agree with this quite a bit and think there is a lot of truth to it.

Junior5 that's a nice sentiment but I can't agree with it. A coach's job is to win games but it's also to develop and try to win other games througout the season. You sometimes have to know when to give up a game to keep someone healthy so they may win 3 or 4 games later.

Figuring out if a pitcher is losing it is more of an art than a science. You can use a radar gun, location, effort, mechanics and / or total number of pitches to figure out if a guy is losing it. This is the art of the game. Some coaches can do this and some cannot.

I'm not a believer in that a kid will lie to a coach and / or that a kid can't go to a coach when it's time to come out. When I took over at my old school we had 3 sophomore pitchers and that was it. We took some butt whoopins because I had to use guys I was trying to turn into pitchers who weren't ready because we couldn't use 3 pitchers for 4 games a week. That's too much although it was tempting to trot out my 3 sophomores against teams I knew we could beat if they pitched. I had to pick and choose my battles for two years until we had developed a staff. I made mistakes and left them in a little too long and sometimes I pulled them too early. We had injuries, dead arms and things like that but they went on the shelf until they were fixed.

You have to develop a trust with your guys. I ask after every inning how my pitcher feels and after developing that trust they will tell me if they are losing it or are done. If they tell me that I take them out and get somebody else in. If they play another position I trust them to throw what they need to throw to stay ready. If they can turn it loose they turn it loose - if they can't then they have my permission to not throw at all that day. Sometimes I "suggest" to them not to throw after pitching due to I think they need the rest. This trust is huge and once it's there it will get carried from year to year. The younger guys see how the interaction is with the older guys and they know we have their health in mind.

But it's still an art and mistakes will happen. Never 177 mistakes but I think you get the idea.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

Take my son for example. He is not a flame-thrower by any means but he does throw pretty decent for his age ...

Did he ever have arm problems?

Son has never really had arm problems. In the past 5 years since he has been pitching he has only had one outing where he complained of mild discomfort in his elbow. His arm gets sore from time to time in the usual spots (tricep and/or bicep) but nothing unusual. He also throws a lot (not pitching) which I believe really helps with the conditioning of his arm.

Love this thread.

Not blowing smoke, but loved PGStaff's contribution to this thread. His son was a major league pitcher and he probably scouts more pitchers than anyone on the planet. What an asset we have here!

All that said, my son was a pitcher when he was young and he was darn good. Kind of like some of you pitcher's parents who lament how good of hitters your pitchers were. I am thrilled my son is an everyday player however. Could not stand it if I had to wait several days to see if his name was in the lineup or not. All that said, if my son were a pitcher, I would want him to pitch. Many here talk about rest and I get that, but if my son were a pitcher, I would want him to pitch. You simply have to let the chips fall where they may. I think of Nolan Ryan and I think of Sandy Koufax. Luck is part of this whole thing.

Pitching is a risky business with the very HIGHEST rewards. I am not an expert on the subject, but I believe the way to build arm-strength is to pitch.

quote:

Once again I think too much is made of the actual pitch count. Different pitchers reach this danger zone at different pitch counts IMO. Nolan Ryan could (and did) throw more pitches than anyone in baseball history. He also threw those pitches as hard as most anyone in history. Most people can't do that, he was different.

I don't know what the perfect pitch count (per game or per inning) for any individual pitcher is. The only real safe pitch count is ZERO. I'm sure we would all agree that the kid who threw 177 pitches was fatigued and probably deep into the danger zone. That seems abusive and when a starting pitcher throws without sufficient recovery time, that is also abusive.

Good discussion, many very good points. It reminds me of a discussion we had with a bunch of old buddies. What is normal? After a long debate we pretty much all agreed... None of us have ever known a person we could describe as normal.

I couldn't agree more. I am glad that there are pitch counts going into place at the different levels but at the same time the problem really comes down on an individual basis. I know kids who can't pitch more than 2-3 innings before they are fatigued and yet know others who can go all game long and still feel fine after the game. Every pitcher is different and each have their own warning signs whether it be a drop in velocity or a stiffer body.

Nolan Ryan was and still is a strong proponent of conditioning. Too often, especially in our day, kids get lazy and don't condition their whole bodies enough to be able to sustain themselves in games without getting into their danger zone too much. One of the best camps we ever attended was when one of the pitching coaches spent the majority of their time on teaching them drill after drill on how to condition the body before throwing. He explained over and over that at the start of every college season he would go through this extensive conditioning workout with his pitchers day after day literally wearing them out until their bodies got acclimated to that regime. then they would start their throwing program after the bodies and arms were properly conditioned for throwing. He explained that injury prevention was mostly about being properly conditioned and then knowing ones own personal limit and that it will varry from pitcher to pitcher depending on a myriad of factors.

Do players today, at the HS level, condition their arms properly to throw as hard as they do? I highly doubt it! I see very few HS programs that rival college or pro programs.

Gingerbread, I have to disagree as the players I see these days condition as well as any.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:

I disagree with Gingerbread Man's post above that players in the past throw just as hard as current players. I do however agree that the Top 5-10% of "Flame Throwers" from the past can "Gas It Up" with todays Top 5-10%. But as a whole, today's arms are much stronger, IMHO. I pitched in the 1980's in high school and a couple years in JC here in California. I was gunned on a few occasions, and topped out at 87-88. That was considered gas as a 17-18 year old twenty seven years ago, and is still a pretty good fastball, but isn't going to fill the stands with scouts these days. This season, my son has four kids on his team that have touched 90-92 (they sit 86-88), and two of the kids are 2012's. There are some pretty good arms out there, especially here in Southern California.

The difference between pitchers today versus yester-year is that there are a whole lot more of them now. This changes the criteria now because it is easier to get a higher concentration of flame-throwers at an event.

Take my son for example. He is not a flame-thrower by any means but he does throw pretty decent for his age (80 mph as a freshman). We have been to several camps and instructors and everyone of them asked who taught son to pitch- where he received instructions. He never had anyone teach him to throw hard or adjust his mechanics he did it all on his own from an early age of throwing balls against our concrete stairs over and over again since he was about 5 years old. That was his "heart" and "desire" for the game. He has had several college coaches and recruiters tell him to really protect his arm because he was going to be good later on when the strength and maturity arrived.

Now I don't mean to brag about son so much as to just explain that he is not the only kid on the block around my area with the same story. His team-mate on the HS team also throws decent and has never had a trainer ever tell him how to throw. His mechanics are as polished as my kids for such an early age and it shows because of the ease of effort they throw with having smooth arm circles and good release points.

I just know that it wouldn't of mattered when these kids were born, if they had the same heart and desire, they would have thrown the same in any era of baseball.

87-88 mph is still considered "gas" at the HS level. There are certainly not very many who can throw that hard at the HS level. I am pretty sure that the average HS velocity hasn't really changed.

My whole point is that too much stock is put into "todays throwers" as if they are doing something special above and beyond what kids did in decades past.

You may be right? I've raised my kids in the same area that I grew up in, and the population is 8-10 times greater than 20-25 years ago...we had one public high school that served three cities/towns. Now there are 9 public high schools within the same limits, serious growth over the years.

I've never sent my son to a pitching coach/trainer either (plenty of batting instructors though). But I'd be lying to you if I didn't admit to utilizing the internet and other tools that our parents didn't have accesss to years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by junior5:
If the HS player says he is okay whose fault is it for that player getting hurt if he does? IMO it is that player's fault. He put himself at risk. Not the coach. You can't blame a coach for listening to a player. The coach's job is to win games. correct? So, if he is told by a player who has carried his team all year most likely that he can keep going why would he take the player out of the game? He wouldn't! Yes, I'm just a player and I'm not nearly as wise as most of you, but you can't blame a coach for making a decision to win the game. That player had the chance to say no and he didn't.

There’s a reason you have to be a certain age to make many decisions that affect your life as well as the lives of others. It’s the difference between a child and an adult. An adult in a position of responsibility over children is expected to act like an adult, and make decisions based on his experience and knowledge, not depend on what some kid all pumped up on adrenaline and testosterone tells him.

GBM,

Today's athlete (HS,college, professional) is in much better physical condition than athletes from the past. Physically speaking, it's not even close. We always talk about Nolan Ryan, but I think we can all agree that Ryan was a freak of nature.

When we were young, we just pitched. We didn't know anything about the Science of Pitching. We didn't have plyometrics, etc...We didn't lift weights. I ran poles, and did plenty of push ups and situps. Most of us were self taught, there wasn't much specialization. I thought I was in great shape, I thought I had a strong arm...but I can honestly say that my kid and his teammates are in much better shape than I ever was, and it's directly attributed to the access that we have to all of this shared information...JMO.

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
Good points stats. Obviously you can't use only one source of information, but any and all sources can be an indicator. Visual is by far the most common way to determine when a pitcher is fatigued. Sometimes it's as simple as seeing the results. Other things would include losing command, movement and velocity. Often these things happen together, but not always. This can be a result of mechanical flaws or it can be a result of being fatigued.

Sometimes people feel I’m on some kind of vendetta against coaches, and being as how so many people on boards like this are coaches, there’s gonna be a lot of folks who don’t like what I have to say or the way I say it. But the truth is, no one has a greater respect for coaches because they at least put their butts on the line. But that’s a general respect, the same as I respect teachers, policemen, or those in the armed forces.

Its possible to respect someone for what they chose to do, but still not like ignorance, and that’s an underlying current here. There are many ways to judge many things in baseball, but for some reason, this particular one seems to be one of the, if not the most difficult. What I’m saying is, it’s a lot more difficult than most people with only a cursory understanding of the intricacies of the game gets.

It just grinds my gears that there aren’t more people who understand what your saying, even though its nothing more than simple common sense based on a knowledge of the game, but those same people go out there and make some of the most ignorant decisions, then try to rationalize them by using arguments that make little sense.

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My point is... There are pitchers who still get outs despite experiencing fatigue or a change in mechanics. IMO, this is due to a large extent on luck. Often these pitchers that are done are left in the game due to this luck. The first guy any coach would ask should be the catcher. He is in the best position to know when a pitcher is losing it. The catcher often realizes this even before the pitcher. One of the greatest skills any coach can have is the ability to get the pitcher out of the game before he has completely lost it.

I don’t know if its necessarily luck. There’s a lot of things that take place in baseball that are chalked up to luck, but in reality, even a mediocre pitcher can and often does have success. The game’s just to difficult and too much based on failure to believe that a lousy pitcher will do nothing but give up hit after hit and run after run.

What I think we’re really talking about, is what the difference is between a mediocre pitcher and a top one. Where the mediocre pitcher will get outs, the top pitcher will get them with more regularity. I believe what a coach is trying to do, is keep the top pitchers from losing that edge they have, and that’s why they replace them.

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I don't think the gun is the only answer, but it can be very revealing. It's not a one or two pitch answer, but when a pitcher goes from 90 consistantly to 85-87, something is causing that. When his breaking ball goes from 78 to 73-74, something is causing that. When the changeup differential goes from 12-13 mph to 9-10 or 15-16, something is causing that. These things are near impossible to detect from the dugout. It could be a mechanical problem, it could be fatigue. But after a certain pitch count it is most likely fatigue, even if that fatigue is causing the mechanical problems. At that point it is time to go get the pitcher who has reached the danger zone.

This is only an aside. Pardon me for changing the subject a bit. I recently read an article that said the average difference in a ML pitcher’s FB and CU is 8.1 mph. Of course that means there are some both above and below that number, but it always trips me out that people seem to believe in that magic number 10, never realizing its not the difference on a gun, but the diference in what the batter perceives.

Back to the thread, you’ve made a great point, and IMHO its something that should be stressed because it isn’t understood. Just because someone’s in the dugout, it doesn’t mean they have the best perspective for all things.

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Once again I think too much is made of the actual pitch count. Different pitchers reach this danger zone at different pitch counts IMO. Nolan Ryan could (and did) throw more pitches than anyone in baseball history. He also threw those pitches as hard as most anyone in history. Most people can't do that, he was different.

I agree. But given the difficulty of understanding when a pitcher should give up the ball, I’d much rather err on the side of safety. That’s what goes on in the MiL. It happens because the manager wouldn’t keep his job very long if he wrecked many million dollar arms by overuse. They now lean toward protection in the lower level youth leagues by having instituted rules for the one thing they can control. Pitch counts.

In HS’s, even though many of today’s coaches have been well schooled in the underlying thinking about pitch counts, there are still some hard-headed dinos out there, and some coaches who really don’t know much about it. But the great thing about it is, it actually seems to have become much less of an issue than ever before. I think much of that comes from when LL Inc implemented mandatory pitch counts a few years back, and almost all HS coaches were “in the game” in some form or other.

Remember when it 1st was talked about and many believed it would be the doom of the game. In fact what happened was. The game changed very littler, and some of those changes were very good, the main one being that more pitchers had to be developed.

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I don't know what the perfect pitch count (per game or per inning) for any individual pitcher is. The only real safe pitch count is ZERO. I'm sure we would all agree that the kid who threw 177 pitches was fatigued and probably deep into the danger zone. That seems abusive and when a starting pitcher throws without sufficient recovery time, that is also abusive.

The thing is, just like there’s a “magic number” for most pitchers when it comes to velocity, there’s a magic number for most pitchers when it comes to pitch counts. But it’s the same for both in that without some history to use to make the judgments, its all a guess. Here’s a link to the pitchers on the teams I’ve scored for over the years. These are metrics I make available to everyone after ever game, not to get anyone all stirred up, but rather to just keep this topic in front of them. But how many people do anything like it?

What I really was hoping to do with it was to get games outside of the HS season too, so that the totality of each player’s workload was seen, but to be honest, people don’t want to know!

http://www.infosports.com/scor.../images/4pgstaff.pdf

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Good discussion, many very good points. It reminds me of a discussion we had with a bunch of old buddies. What is normal? After a long debate we pretty much all agreed... None of us have ever known a person we could describe as normal.

Its always good to exchange information and ideas! That’s the only way change, either for the better or worse takes place.

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

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Originally posted by TPM:
What does pitch f/x have to do with this.

As far as I know, only pitch(f/x) and possibly Questec have the ability to get accurate data about pitches.

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Did you pitch at one time, did you become injured?

Not me. I was able to throw a ball from behind the plate to 2nd base from a chair without getting up when I was 60 years old. Now the old age, bursitis and beginnings of arthritis are taking their toll, but that happens to everyone eventually.

You once posted here as scorekeeper, correct?

As you all know my son worked with a former ML pitcher (pcoach for high A Palm Beach), I am going to ask him to ask Dennis about the velocity of his time and the velocity of the pitchers throwing today.
I don't think he threw that hard.

Now I know that all pitchers are different, mine was taught to pitch to contact, when he was younger. I think that is what helped, less pitches thrown, less time on the mound, able to get through more innings with fewer pitches. Don't be afraid if you get hit is what he was taught.

I really feel a big issue today is young kids NOT pitching to contact. They are afraid of getting hit. If they did make more contact, more frequently, then you wouldn't see 177 pitches, this pitcher had to have gone deep in the count and was nibbling.

As far as velocity, many many pro players can hit over 90, but some are just not as effective, so they have to scale back. In HS, you are not going to tell a pitcher throwing 95 to turn it down, but eventually that velo will turn into experience and won't be needed.

Pitch F/X tells you a pitcher is tiring?

Stats,
You're right I mean you get the choice to drive, use tobacco, and where or whether you want to go to college all while in high school. That's odd. I'll just be a teenager who is being ignorant though. As a highschool student, parents and adults give you decisions that "they" want you to make, well lets just spoon feed everyone and maybe we'll be in a better place. Here's a thought, how about we raise, as a society, responsible students and have them make proper decisions. What a thought? That player wants to win a game. I hear coaches say play every game like it's your last? Tomorrow is never gauranteed so you might as well bust your a** and do what you need to for your team. If you can get outs and do it without harming yourself DO IT! If not hand the ball over and go play defense or sit on the bench. Personally if I was a pitcher, I would never give that ball up if I thought I could get a person or people out. Another idea, how many people have said something to a player about being soft, or not being able to push through something? Nearly everyone! If you come out and have the option to stay in you are given the "soft" title. Ask AJ Burnett a couple years ago many people questioned his toughness because he had tightness in his elbow. Well, if he isn't feeling up to par why should he pitch? Kids want to win games and so do their coaches! If a kid can do it, then why not give them a chance?

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
GBM,

Today's athlete (HS,college, professional) is in much better physical condition than athletes from the past. Physically speaking, it's not even close. We always talk about Nolan Ryan, but I think we can all agree that Ryan was a freak of nature.

When we were young, we just pitched. We didn't know anything about the Science of Pitching. We didn't have plyometrics, etc...We didn't lift weights. I ran poles, and did plenty of push ups and situps. Most of us were self taught, there wasn't much specialization. I thought I was in great shape, I thought I had a strong arm...but I can honestly say that my kid and his teammates are in much better shape than I ever was, and it's directly attributed to the access that we have to all of this shared information...JMO.

The "science of pitching"? I don't really but into it I guess. When I was young I threw anything I could get my hands on. I ran miles everyday just for the fun of it, I chopped wood and dug holes and other hard labor around the place we had. I was small but strong and very well conditioned. I never knew how fast I could throw a ball as no one ever got clocked back then but I could throw a ball the length of the field.

Now I know that kids today aren't really much different other than I know they don't condition themselves nearly as much as we did when we were kids not having all the electronic gadgets to take up our time. Evtertainment for us was biking over to our friends house a few miles away and playing ball. Now kids just drive and hang out playing video games or checking their mobile phones constantly.

My own son is a self taught pitcher and he throws pretty hard for his age and has had many a professional coach impressed with his mechanics and natural ability. I am guessing this is pretty normal in a lot of pitchers from any era of baseball. Somehow, pitchers for the most part don't need specialized programs to increase velocity. Most of it if not all of it is in the genetics and their pure har desire to work hard at throwing hard. For my son that was pretty much imagining himself as a pitcher and throwing endlessly at the concrete stairs. Another kid who grew up alongside my kid took pitching lessons every year and they spent but_loads of money taking him to all the camps and instructors who taught from their own specialized angle. As it stands today, that kid has a lot of arm issues (elbow), throws slower, and has poor work ethic and is babied quite a bit. So, here am I watching all of this and I have to ask myself the obvious- Where does velocity really come from? This is where I doubt it comes from all our specialized training.

I honestly belive that it is mostly genetics and natural ability. I do think pitching coaches can help tweak a players bad mechanics (slow throwers) and improve their velocity, but when it comes to most flame-throwers, I honeslty believe it just comes down to pure natural ability and for the most part the supposed specialized gurus should stand off to the side and let them naturally develop on their own.

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Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

Pitching is a risky business with the very HIGHEST rewards. I am not an expert on the subject, but I believe the way to build arm-strength is to pitch.

You are correct, that's why most pitchers get better as the season progresses. What is expected from a ML starter (200+ innings) is incredible and I think nearly impossible for most. There were starters my sons HS draft year who essentially are done as they were pushed too quickly, college AND pro.

Probably why they convert so many position guys, is because you can't find too many guys out there who can put in that amount of time on the mound. Arms are always needed.

It's all about being sensible. Interesting to note that many injured usually are because they take a big jump in innings from year to year, not always necessarily how many pitch counts too many in one game. Some call it the Verducci Rule, no more than 30 innings per season from last.
I would be more concerned if a pitcher went from lets say 50 innings to 100 in a season
and then pitched too many per inning.
That may not be correct but that is my understanding.

However, there is a difference between what makes sense and what doesn't. For me, as a pp (pitcher's parent) 177 signals way to much work for one outing.

Studies have shown that the vast majority of kids hurt throwing a baseball do it while throwing a baseball. Studies have also shown that if you never throw a baseball you are less likely to hurt your arm throwing a baseball. And the same studies show that if you want to throw a baseball and take the risk you more than likely will have to actually throw a baseball to do it.

No risk no reward.

Undue risk? Its there. Outrageous pitch counts. Poor instruction. Over zealous dads wanting their kid to be the star on two or three teams at the same time. Coaches who are more concerned with winning than the player. Just use some common sense. Its not that hard.

if they trul are looking to the future they should be smart enuff---mine was

.

"Just use some common sense. Its not that hard."

Oh, how I wish that were true!




.

My favorite saying- "drugs...they will either kill you, or they won't"

"pitching...it will either hurt your arm, or it won't"