Examine rosters for recruitment

• What else can you learn by looking at their roster?

What should matter is the quality of the education you receive. If engineering matters and you don’t see any engineering majors playing take note.

I keep telling the knucklehead this is the most important thing you need to be sure of before doing a deeper dive on the roster.  He does not want an engineering major but he needs to be sure that something of that complexity can be supported on the team or be willing to accept the common ones on the roster.

Another thing to consider - that most people don’t realize - is that almost every college program (regardless of level of play) is either better for pitchers or better for position players. Sometimes they are bad for both but they are hardly ever good for both. So it’s important to identify the better programs for you based on the position you play - the same way you target schools based on degree plans offered. This is a part of the homework that too often gets eaten by the family dog instead of completed and discussed.

I think for most years, you can look at a combination of a lot of these things.  For 20-21 and 21-22, you have no idea who is on the roster.  A lot of kids got bumped by returning players that weren't going to return and for next year...players are likely leaving that you expect to leave, the incoming class is easy to gauge, but you have no idea who coaches are taking from the portal.  There are lots of conversations going on behind the scenes and through players to try to pick guys off from other teams.  Next year is a huge unknown.  Maybe 22-23 will be more normal.  We can hope.

adbono

and how would I go about that?

I would agree with most of it in normal circumstances but too many guys in portal now for most programs.  You can't look at history because it doesn't reflect reality.  One SEC team last weekend had 5 guys starting that were not with the program last year.  All the research in the world would not help you know that in advance.  Then I look at UT, where son is, and the only one who was not with them last year is the back-up catcher, grad transfer, who had to start this weekend due to starter being injured.  But of the starters probably 4 should have been gone last year in a normal draft year.  It is hard to gauge the system right now with the one time transfer rule and the still lower draft.  We have guys planning on coming back next year for their 6th year unless they get drafted, not if they get post-draft offer.  They are coming back for masters and to finish out.  That was unheard of in the past and those guys have played/started for several years with one year of medical redshirt.  It will make life real interesting for 2020 and 2021 classes.

@RJM posted:

I don’t expect everyone to agree with my observations. I believe there is the potential for a lot of good takes based on the house knowledge level.

• How many players do they have on their roster?
• Looking back through the archives, how many players are leaving the program each year?
• How many seniors have stayed from freshman year?
• How many have dropped off?
  
  

Roster number doesn’t matter. Do you have the skills to be one of the 18-20 who regularly contribute. Chances are half of recruited players will transfer or quit playing.

• How many players are red-shirting?
• How many players do they have at each position?
• Do they have a lot of upper-classmen returners at your position?
• Will they have a positional need for you in your recruiting class?
  
  

Outside pitcher and catcher position doesn’t matter. If you hit there will be a place for you in the lineup. I’ve seen catchers moved to other positions.

• Where are the players from?

• Do they have players from your area on their roster?
• Do they have a lot of players from one area or recruit all over?
  
  

This is relevant. Most state universities recruit within the state or neighboring states with a border tuition agreement. An exception are studs and states without enough talent. Then they tend to recruit regionally. Privates tend to be regional to national.

• What physical size are the players at your position?
  
  

If you can play the game better than the big guys size won’t matter. All other things equal chances are the shorter player loses the tiebreaker. However, I knew of a coach who was a 5’9” player. He had a short man’s complex. He tended to recruit shorter players. Some rosters only have 6’2” or taller pitchers with a few exceptions.

• What is the balance of right-handed hitters/pitchers versus left-handed hitters/pitchers?
  
  

With so many pitchers recruiting the team will have enough adequate arms from each side. It won’t matter in your recruiting.

• What do the player bios tell you about player interests and hobbies outside of baseball?
  
  

Not important. You either make time or you don’t. You’re going to be busy with baseball and academics.

• What do the player bios tell you about their past baseball accomplishments? Do they match yours?
  
  

A lot of this stuff gets embellished once past the higher ranked teams. You know who the best teams are recruiting. At most levels everyone was at least some level of all conference somewhere.

• Can you find evaluations of the players at your position from high school online? What about recruiting videos or measurables like 60 yard dash times or  velocity?

It’s available on Perfect Game profiles. How much access you have is the question.  

• What else can you learn by looking at their roster?

What should matter is the quality of the education you receive. If engineering matters and you don’t see any engineering majors playing take note.

My opinion. Here's my "In general the average parent...." answer;

In general, there are too many unknowns for an average parent to know enough to make decisions on a school for their son based on roster evaluation. Other recruits, juco/graduate transfers, injured players returning, draft or not draft, there is just too many unknowns.

But do it anyway to see if anything stands out.  If your son is a catcher and the team has a good hitting soph catcher and the top two catcher recruits from your state are committed to the same school and your son is the 30th ranked catcher and is asked to walk-on, well there is something that stands out.

Or if the entire starting nine are seniors (or freshman) there's another.

Adbono is right, teams swing between pitching and hitting. Son's team spent almost entire recruiting class in 2020 on pitchers, and also four more showed up via Juco/Grad transfer. They will have to swing to position players next go-round.

IMO the only real measure of your son's chances are the size of his scholarship. At some point you have to roll the dice.  The answer won't be at the bottom of a sum column on a spreadsheet.

Once a player and his family have gotten to know several of the coaches and mutual interest is established, several well-placed conversations between the player and members of the current team can go a long way toward corroborating (or debunking)  things that coaches have said and impressions that have been created. These are the sort of conversations that both official and unofficial recruiting visits are supposed to cause; but, there's nothing wrong with picking up the phone either.

@Prepster posted:

Once a player and his family have gotten to know several of the coaches and mutual interest is established, several well-placed conversations between the player and members of the current team can go a long way toward corroborating (or debunking)  things that coaches have said and impressions that have been created. These are the sort of conversations that both official and unofficial recruiting visits are supposed to cause; but, there's nothing wrong with picking up the phone either.

Bingo ! There is your answer Good Knight! Now go and fetch me a shrubbery!

Anytime you want to find out what’s really going on in any program the best source are the current players. HS and college kids are pretty unfiltered and will usually tell the truth when the subject is baseball. They also aren’t usually very good at hiding their true feelings so you can learn a lot by reading body language. Combine that with what they say (or don’t say) and you can usually get a good read on the situation.

@Good Knight posted:

adbono

and how would I go about that?

Sending you a PM

My son put this method to work effectively when he was being recruited. In part because the remaining recruiting budget at his number one school was tight, his offer there was the lowest that he received. However, the head coach told us that if he made the contribution that they thought he could, they'd systematically increase his athletic money as funds were freed up. He went on to suggest the names of several players who had experienced that very thing.

When he made an unofficial visit, he made a point of inquiring with the players who had been suggested; and, they verified their experiences. After hearing that and asking a good many other questions, he ultimately chose that program; and, the coach was true to his word all the way to the end of his playing days there.

I think the pertinent admonition would be: "Trust, but verify."

Reviewing rosters is a good start for some basic insights.

If those 1st level checks pass the mustard test, then you proceed to level 2 and/or 3.

Note, going in blind can cost you $$$ or stop your career, due to maybe a injury because of inferior training.

Certain information will be more valuable than other.

Is it any different if you were looking for a new job?

Just like looking for a job the best situation to be in is the employer/college program is pursuing you. This happens for the studs. Next best is be recommended to a potential employee/baseball program. It’s why it’s important to select a travel program with coaches with contacts and credibility.

@RJM posted:

Just like looking for a job the best situation to be in is the employer/college program is pursuing you. This happens for the studs. Next best is be recommended to a potential employee/baseball program. It’s why it’s important to select a travel program with coaches with contacts and credibility.

Pay to play ($5000 - $7500) per year, get kickback on the backend.

Similar to the book by Joe Nocera – “Indentured: The Inside Story of the Rebellion Against the NCAA”

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Pay to play ($5000 - $7500) per year, get kickback on the backend.

Similar to the book by Joe Nocera – “Indentured: The Inside Story of the Rebellion Against the NCAA”

My kids played for subsidized teams. Those teams had contacts. The coach’s referrals helped place them. My daughter played softball. I wasn’t looking for ROI. I figured it would be gravy.

My son played for a 17u team for two years. He got a 10X+ ROI. He barely played one year due to injury.

My daughter played for an 18u Gold team for four years. She received a 10X ROI. She played for the team for three years after committing before post soph summer.

@RJM posted:

My kids played for subsidized teams. Those teams had contacts. The coach’s referrals helped place them. My daughter played softball. I wasn’t looking for ROI. I figured it would be gravy.

My son played for a 17u team for two years. He got a 10X+ ROI. He barely played one year due to injury.

My daughter played for an 18u Gold team for four years. She received a 10X ROI. She played for the team for three years after committing before post soph summer.

Most teams subsidized the top teams by having 3 or 4 teams per age group. So the lower teams pay for the top team.

Note, there are 2 sides of the business.

Travel Team is 501c3 (non profit)

Travel programs make $$$ with lessons.

Note,  how does the travel coach make his or her $$$.

Now if the program has sponsors, it will potentially lower perceived cost.

Ask for the financials, it will tell you everything if you can get access. lol

My kids teams were not subsidized by lower level teams. They were subsidized by wealthy organizations

But if parents choose to pay for their kids to play for B and C teams isn’t this their choice?  No one is forcing them to pay.

Sure, my kids got exposure from these travel teams. It’s their  primary objective. These teams promoted my kid’s talent to the right college,programs. My daughter stayed to play three more summers after commiting.

@RJM posted:

My kids teams were not subsidized by lower level teams. They were subsidized by wealthy organizations

But if parents choose to pay for their kids to play for B and C teams isn’t this their choice?  No one is forcing them to pay.

Sure, my kids got exposure from these travel teams. It’s their  primary objective. These teams promoted my kid’s talent to the right college,programs. My daughter stayed to play three more summers after commiting.

Most players don't have the opportunity to play for wealthy organizations.

Remember travel sports is a very lucrative business.

Between 2009 - 2013,  most organizations fund their upper groups multiple ways:

Younger age groups (8u - 12u)

Multiple teams at a (13u - 17u)

At our level, the difference between the "A" and "B" at the 14u was pitching.  Note, the "B" team had the better athletes, the "A" team got the better training.

Secondly, the age rule was based on the Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell,

April 30 cut off, thus our "A" team had the players that were born between May 1 and Oct, whereas the "B" Team was normally Dec - Apr (next year).

"A" Team - 75% players in 9th grade, 25% in 8th grade

"B" Team - 25% players in 9th grade, 75% in 8th grade

As they went through high school, the "B" team players had better High School careers, college careers were interesting for both groups.

Note, the organization was showcasing their "A" players, hence the major of "B"  players left the organization after 15u (HS Sophomore).

Note, from a High School perspective the "A" team at the age level below were technically in competition with the our "B" team.  They thought they were better, went to better tournaments, until they competed against each other in high school and figured out the most "B" players were better.

From a professional perspective, there a more "B" players in the high levels of MLB pipeline than both "A" teams combined.

Note, how many organizations are subsidized?  One might find out through personal contact, but it will not be readily available to everybody.

My analogy would be "admission to a private school".  Not everybody will be allowed admittance and the organization will be very selective.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Most players don't have the opportunity to play for wealthy organizations.

Remember travel sports is a very lucrative business.

Between 2009 - 2013,  most organizations fund their upper groups multiple ways:

Younger age groups (8u - 12u)

Multiple teams at a (13u - 17u)

At our level, the difference between the "A" and "B" at the 14u was pitching.  Note, the "B" team had the better athletes, the "A" team got the better training.

Secondly, the age rule was based on the Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell,

April 30 cut off, thus our "A" team had the players that were born between May 1 and Oct, whereas the "B" Team was normally Dec - Apr (next year).

"A" Team - 75% players in 9th grade, 25% in 8th grade

"B" Team - 25% players in 9th grade, 75% in 8th grade

As they went through high school, the "B" team players had better High School careers, college careers were interesting for both groups.

Note, the organization was showcasing their "A" players, hence the major of "B"  players left the organization after 15u (HS Sophomore).

Note, from a High School perspective the "A" team at the age level below were technically in competition with the our "B" team.  They thought they were better, went to better tournaments, until they competed against each other in high school and figured out the most "B" players were better.

From a professional perspective, there a more "B" players in the high levels of MLB pipeline than both "A" teams combined.

Note, how many organizations are subsidized?  One might find out through personal contact, but it will not be readily available to everybody.

My analogy would be "admission to a private school".  Not everybody will be allowed admittance and the organization will be very selective.

Another spin to A and B teams is that most organizations don't objectively shuffle their teams once kids finish playing on the small field. This is the reason I believe A level talent is left on B level teams.

@CollegebaseballInsights you are spot-on when it comes to the age versus grade. I just wish more people understood this concept.