So my RHP 2021 has always been a combo PO/DH.  Has done some work at 1B but hasn’t devoted too much time to it to focus on mechanics for pitching. But he can hit for contact and he can rake. He’s a big, athletic kid: 6’3, 210.  At Headfirst last year he had a lot of great measurables  for just general athleticism.   He had never had his exit velo tested and it was an 87 which he felt was pretty strong.  Fast forward to yesterday, we go to Dicks Sporting Goods and the Hittrax cage to sample a new bat.  With both of them he was averaging around 92-93 and got up to 95.  The guy at Dicks asked me if he was in college given the numbers.  All of which has me thinking... does this metric really matter? Is it accurate? Or should he be focusing a bit more on hitting so he can give himself more potential options for final recruitment push this summer (which is focused on HA schools). Would be curious to hear groups thoughts. 

Original Post
Wechson posted:

So my RHP 2021 has always been a combo PO/DH.  Has done some work at 1B but hasn’t devoted too much time to it to focus on mechanics for pitching. But he can hit for contact and he can rake. He’s a big, athletic kid: 6’3, 210.  At Headfirst last year he had a lot of great measurables  for just general athleticism.   He had never had his exit velo tested and it was an 87 which he felt was pretty strong.  Fast forward to yesterday, we go to Dicks Sporting Goods and the Hittrax cage to sample a new bat.  With both of them he was averaging around 92-93 and got up to 95.  The guy at Dicks asked me if he was in college given the numbers.  All of which has me thinking... does this metric really matter? Is it accurate? Or should he be focusing a bit more on hitting so he can give himself more potential options for final recruitment push this summer (which is focused on HA schools). Would be curious to hear groups thoughts. 

If he were not hitting mid-nineties then I'd say he's not working very hard. Any kid who is 6'-3" and 210 lbs. SHOULD be hitting those numbers. There's a lot more to determining whether he's a D1 prospect; exit velocity (with wood) is just one metric.

I've stated on this forum before my opinion on large players and where they should be as far as exit velocity. I've spent a lot of time perusing PG showcase stats (and PBR) and know without a doubt the vast majority of kids who hit 90+ exit velocity with a wood bat off the tee are 6' + and 200 lbs. +. They don't have to have any other talent or work ethic. Size matters.

If I see a kid who weights less than 185 and is 6' or shorter hitting mid nineties then I'm impressed. That's an indication he has some power and/or bat speed coupled with the ability to square up a baseball off a tee. I also see plenty of large kids who do not hit those metrics. To me, that's an indication he doesn't square up the ball when it counts--as in a showcase. Some kids just need to practice at hitting off a tee in a pressure situation. If you have the size there is no reason why you shouldn't be in the 90's except for your (in)ability to square up the ball.

ABSORBER posted:
Wechson posted:

So my RHP 2021 has always been a combo PO/DH.  Has done some work at 1B but hasn’t devoted too much time to it to focus on mechanics for pitching. But he can hit for contact and he can rake. He’s a big, athletic kid: 6’3, 210.  At Headfirst last year he had a lot of great measurables  for just general athleticism.   He had never had his exit velo tested and it was an 87 which he felt was pretty strong.  Fast forward to yesterday, we go to Dicks Sporting Goods and the Hittrax cage to sample a new bat.  With both of them he was averaging around 92-93 and got up to 95.  The guy at Dicks asked me if he was in college given the numbers.  All of which has me thinking... does this metric really matter? Is it accurate? Or should he be focusing a bit more on hitting so he can give himself more potential options for final recruitment push this summer (which is focused on HA schools). Would be curious to hear groups thoughts. 

If he were not hitting mid-nineties then I'd say he's not working very hard. Any kid who is 6'-3" and 210 lbs. SHOULD be hitting those numbers. There's a lot more to determining whether he's a D1 prospect; exit velocity (with wood) is just one metric.

I've stated on this forum before my opinion on large players and where they should be as far as exit velocity. I've spent a lot of time perusing PG showcase stats (and PBR) and know without a doubt the vast majority of kids who hit 90+ exit velocity with a wood bat off the tee are 6' + and 200 lbs. +. They don't have to have any other talent or work ethic. Size matters.

If I see a kid who weights less than 185 and is 6' or shorter hitting mid nineties then I'm impressed. That's an indication he has some power and/or bat speed coupled with the ability to square up a baseball off a tee. I also see plenty of large kids who do not hit those metrics. To me, that's an indication he doesn't square up the ball when it counts--as in a showcase. Some kids just need to practice at hitting off a tee in a pressure situation. If you have the size there is no reason why you shouldn't be in the 90's except for your (in)ability to square up the ball.

Thx for input.  Don't disagree with any of this, would only emphasize that my son is a VERY hard worker.  Does something almost daily to train and improve, so he doesn't take his natural size for granted.  My general question was more about how to focus attention in the next few months.  He's spent almost all of the past 6 months on velo based training and pitching mechanics, as he still has work to do there to get to consistent D1 velo.  But perhaps *because* size matters, and that's more clearly measurable with his hitting, he should not shy away from showcasing that a bit more prominently. 

 

My advice would be to figure out what your son want's to do. I doubt there are too many PO/DH's in college so you'll need to have your son decide where to concentrate his focus.

Most two-way players are primary position players who also happen to pitch (and pitch really well). If they are a position player at the D1 level then it generally means someone thinks they can also hit.

So if your son wants to hit in college he'll need to change himself to  a 1B/RHP (or a 1B/LHP). Then he'll have to be a decent fielder who can really mash. So the exit velocity is there but he also needs to perform in games (both as a fielder and as a hitter).

I would only do this if he really wants to be a position player. Your son is at the age where he needs to be one or the other; travel teams are going to ask him to either be a primary position player or a PO. Of course if he's a position player who is also a really good pitcher then that travel team will be more than willing to ask him to play for them.

College coaches are always looking for pitching so if they see you son pitching and they like what they see then they will offer. Of course they may say "we want him as a PO" and that will be an indication to you where they see his future.

ABSORBER posted:

My advice would be to figure out what your son want's to do. I doubt there are too many PO/DH's in college so you'll need to have your son decide where to concentrate his focus.

Most two-way players are primary position players who also happen to pitch (and pitch really well). If they are a position player at the D1 level then it generally means someone thinks they can also hit.

So if your son wants to hit in college he'll need to change himself to  a 1B/RHP (or a 1B/LHP). Then he'll have to be a decent fielder who can really mash. So the exit velocity is there but he also needs to perform in games (both as a fielder and as a hitter).

I would only do this if he really wants to be a position player. Your son is at the age where he needs to be one or the other; travel teams are going to ask him to either be a primary position player or a PO. Of course if he's a position player who is also a really good pitcher then that travel team will be more than willing to ask him to play for them.

College coaches are always looking for pitching so if they see you son pitching and they like what they see then they will offer. Of course they may say "we want him as a PO" and that will be an indication to you where they see his future.

All makes sense.  He's been a PO on his travel team for 2 years and the plan is for him to do that again.  Suspect at D3 level, which is a serious consideration, he may be able to play both sides.  But for HA D1 it's been PO, which is where he wants to focus given how much time and effort he's put in.  

Just helps to talk through, given his natural hitting ability and metrics.  He's played some 1B last year, but never felt fully comfortable.  He'll hit for his high school team and suppose if we go to a Spring showcase and his hitting sparks interest we can take that as it comes. 

Appreciate the responses. 

Exit velo tells you how fast is traveling off a bat- I'd say that's a significant number.  If you look on perfect game or PBR, you'll see an exit Velo of 95 is a very good number.  In my son's class in Texas (2020), there are a little over 30 guys in the entire state that have tested 95 or better.  Almost all of these players are committed and it seems like most of those are D1 or very good JUCO's.  While size my influence a scout's perspective on projectability, exit velo is exit velo.  95 is 95 whether from big guy or small and its a very good number.  Some coaches are really big on it and others aren't as focused on it- from our experience.  For the ones that are in to it, it'll get them to watch you play, but they'll still want to see what the kid looks like in person.  

BPGuyfor2020 posted:

Exit velo tells you how fast is traveling off a bat- I'd say that's a significant number.  If you look on perfect game or PBR, you'll see an exit Velo of 95 is a very good number.  In my son's class in Texas (2020), there are a little over 30 guys in the entire state that have tested 95 or better.  Almost all of these players are committed and it seems like most of those are D1 or very good JUCO's.  While size my influence a scout's perspective on projectability, exit velo is exit velo.  95 is 95 whether from big guy or small and its a very good number.  Some coaches are really big on it and others aren't as focused on it- from our experience.  For the ones that are in to it, it'll get them to watch you play, but they'll still want to see what the kid looks like in person.  

thx for the reply.  Yeah, that's where I was going with this.  The thought process had always been pretty steady and along the lines of what @ABSORBER is suggesting.  But that number just kind of jumped out to me.  Felt like an equivalent of him being able to throw 90 (which he can't do, at least not yet).  Feels like a potential separator.  

ABSORBER posted:

My advice would be to figure out what your son want's to do. I doubt there are too many PO/DH's in college so you'll need to have your son decide where to concentrate his focus.

Most two-way players are primary position players who also happen to pitch (and pitch really well). If they are a position player at the D1 level then it generally means someone thinks they can also hit.

So if your son wants to hit in college he'll need to change himself to  a 1B/RHP (or a 1B/LHP). Then he'll have to be a decent fielder who can really mash. So the exit velocity is there but he also needs to perform in games (both as a fielder and as a hitter).

I would only do this if he really wants to be a position player. Your son is at the age where he needs to be one or the other; travel teams are going to ask him to either be a primary position player or a PO. Of course if he's a position player who is also a really good pitcher then that travel team will be more than willing to ask him to play for them.

College coaches are always looking for pitching so if they see you son pitching and they like what they see then they will offer. Of course they may say "we want him as a PO" and that will be an indication to you where they see his future.

I would disagree.  There are a lot of guys in P5's that are good hitters and pitchers.  Many of them do not play positions but only DH the days they are not starting and don't hit the days they are pitching.  A lot more than you would think.  I think the number is a lot lower in the top conferences that pitch and play a position.  There are guys who play a position and pitch but fewer that are primary pitchers that play a position.  Not enough time in the day to work on pitching, hitting, and playing a position.  Stretching it to pitch and hit.  The guys that play a position and pitch normally are just closers who throw it hard but don't work on pitching except to throw bullpens.

Exit Velocity can’t tell you if you’re a good hitter or not, but it is a good indicator of who has the potential to play college baseball and who doesn’t. No matter what a player still has to be able to square up quality pitching. 
Showcase testing is designed to show scouts a players “Potential” .

Hit, Run and Throw, If a player tests well scouts are going to be interested and take a closer look.

PitchingFan posted:
ABSORBER posted:

My advice would be to figure out what your son want's to do. I doubt there are too many PO/DH's in college so you'll need to have your son decide where to concentrate his focus.

Most two-way players are primary position players who also happen to pitch (and pitch really well). If they are a position player at the D1 level then it generally means someone thinks they can also hit.

So if your son wants to hit in college he'll need to change himself to  a 1B/RHP (or a 1B/LHP). Then he'll have to be a decent fielder who can really mash. So the exit velocity is there but he also needs to perform in games (both as a fielder and as a hitter).

I would only do this if he really wants to be a position player. Your son is at the age where he needs to be one or the other; travel teams are going to ask him to either be a primary position player or a PO. Of course if he's a position player who is also a really good pitcher then that travel team will be more than willing to ask him to play for them.

College coaches are always looking for pitching so if they see you son pitching and they like what they see then they will offer. Of course they may say "we want him as a PO" and that will be an indication to you where they see his future.

I would disagree.  There are a lot of guys in P5's that are good hitters and pitchers.  Many of them do not play positions but only DH the days they are not starting and don't hit the days they are pitching.  A lot more than you would think.  I think the number is a lot lower in the top conferences that pitch and play a position.  There are guys who play a position and pitch but fewer that are primary pitchers that play a position.  Not enough time in the day to work on pitching, hitting, and playing a position.  Stretching it to pitch and hit.  The guys that play a position and pitch normally are just closers who throw it hard but don't work on pitching except to throw bullpens.

Hmm. Not sure I see where you disagree. I'm saying exactly that. There are very few pitchers who are ever in the lineup. I'm not saying they can't hit; I'm saying they are not in the lineup.  You would have to show me an example of PO's who are regularly in a P5 lineup. I think your last three sentences are exactly why my recommendation to the OP is that his son figure out what he wants to do--and that's either play a position (1B) or be a PO.

ABSORBER posted:
PitchingFan posted:
ABSORBER posted:

My advice would be to figure out what your son want's to do. I doubt there are too many PO/DH's in college so you'll need to have your son decide where to concentrate his focus.

Most two-way players are primary position players who also happen to pitch (and pitch really well). If they are a position player at the D1 level then it generally means someone thinks they can also hit.

So if your son wants to hit in college he'll need to change himself to  a 1B/RHP (or a 1B/LHP). Then he'll have to be a decent fielder who can really mash. So the exit velocity is there but he also needs to perform in games (both as a fielder and as a hitter).

I would only do this if he really wants to be a position player. Your son is at the age where he needs to be one or the other; travel teams are going to ask him to either be a primary position player or a PO. Of course if he's a position player who is also a really good pitcher then that travel team will be more than willing to ask him to play for them.

College coaches are always looking for pitching so if they see you son pitching and they like what they see then they will offer. Of course they may say "we want him as a PO" and that will be an indication to you where they see his future.

I would disagree.  There are a lot of guys in P5's that are good hitters and pitchers.  Many of them do not play positions but only DH the days they are not starting and don't hit the days they are pitching.  A lot more than you would think.  I think the number is a lot lower in the top conferences that pitch and play a position.  There are guys who play a position and pitch but fewer that are primary pitchers that play a position.  Not enough time in the day to work on pitching, hitting, and playing a position.  Stretching it to pitch and hit.  The guys that play a position and pitch normally are just closers who throw it hard but don't work on pitching except to throw bullpens.

Hmm. Not sure I see where you disagree. I'm saying exactly that. There are very few pitchers who are ever in the lineup. I'm not saying they can't hit; I'm saying they are not in the lineup.  You would have to show me an example of PO's who are regularly in a P5 lineup. I think your last three sentences are exactly why my recommendation to the OP is that his son figure out what he wants to do--and that's either play a position (1B) or be a PO.

Only thing I'll say, and I suspect it wont make too much of a difference, is that my son is focused on HA D1/D3.  Have seen plenty of examples of 2 way players in even the most competitive D3's.  Probably limited at D1 at any level, but he's not aiming for P5. 

Only consideration is if that number will help in any way if he doesn't fully commit to position playing.  Just wonder if coaches see that raw number and give him a deeper look.  Frankly, first step is I think he should get the number re-tested in a facility other than a Dick's Sporting Goods :-)

That's a very good number but again--so is his size. Coaches are more likely to notice his size first, then notice that his exit velocity matches his size (meaning he knows how to square up the ball off a tee), But none of that matters unless he can actually hit live pitching. That's the most important thing and the other factors (size, exit velo) are secondary and in support of his ability to hit in a game.

I agree; there is a much better chance of him hitting and pitching at the D3 level. Coaches will still recruit position players (bonus if they can pitch) and pitchers (they don't really care whether they can hit). If a kid can really hit and he can also play adequately on defense, the coach will find a spot for him in the lineup. If a primary pitcher is good enough to be in the lineup everyday, he's likely also going to be on the field playing defense. And then pitch when needed.

ABSORBER posted:

That's a very good number but again--so is his size. Coaches are more likely to notice his size first, then notice that his exit velocity matches his size (meaning he knows how to square up the ball off a tee), But none of that matters unless he can actually hit live pitching. That's the most important thing and the other factors (size, exit velo) are secondary and in support of his ability to hit in a game.

I agree; there is a much better chance of him hitting and pitching at the D3 level. Coaches will still recruit position players (bonus if they can pitch) and pitchers (they don't really care whether they can hit). If a kid can really hit and he can also play adequately on defense, the coach will find a spot for him in the lineup. If a primary pitcher is good enough to be in the lineup everyday, he's likely also going to be on the field playing defense. And then pitch when needed.

The rub for him has been that in High School, he has been encouraged to hit and has done very well.  Gets walked a ton, hits for contact more than distance (suppose someone will want him to adjust his launch angle at some point), but he connects. So he's always had a great OBP, but perhaps counter intuitively a non eye-popping slugging number given his size.  The problem is once the HS season is over, he doesn't see live pitching during travel.  Or it's super limited, so when he does showcase his timing is off.  May just do more cage/batting machine type stuff in between HS and summer showcase season to keep his eye fresh.  

ABSORBER posted:
PitchingFan posted:
ABSORBER posted:

My advice would be to figure out what your son want's to do. I doubt there are too many PO/DH's in college so you'll need to have your son decide where to concentrate his focus.

Most two-way players are primary position players who also happen to pitch (and pitch really well). If they are a position player at the D1 level then it generally means someone thinks they can also hit.

So if your son wants to hit in college he'll need to change himself to  a 1B/RHP (or a 1B/LHP). Then he'll have to be a decent fielder who can really mash. So the exit velocity is there but he also needs to perform in games (both as a fielder and as a hitter).

I would only do this if he really wants to be a position player. Your son is at the age where he needs to be one or the other; travel teams are going to ask him to either be a primary position player or a PO. Of course if he's a position player who is also a really good pitcher then that travel team will be more than willing to ask him to play for them.

College coaches are always looking for pitching so if they see you son pitching and they like what they see then they will offer. Of course they may say "we want him as a PO" and that will be an indication to you where they see his future.

I would disagree.  There are a lot of guys in P5's that are good hitters and pitchers.  Many of them do not play positions but only DH the days they are not starting and don't hit the days they are pitching.  A lot more than you would think.  I think the number is a lot lower in the top conferences that pitch and play a position.  There are guys who play a position and pitch but fewer that are primary pitchers that play a position.  Not enough time in the day to work on pitching, hitting, and playing a position.  Stretching it to pitch and hit.  The guys that play a position and pitch normally are just closers who throw it hard but don't work on pitching except to throw bullpens.

Hmm. Not sure I see where you disagree. I'm saying exactly that. There are very few pitchers who are ever in the lineup. I'm not saying they can't hit; I'm saying they are not in the lineup.  You would have to show me an example of PO's who are regularly in a P5 lineup. I think your last three sentences are exactly why my recommendation to the OP is that his son figure out what he wants to do--and that's either play a position (1B) or be a PO.

Cal has had a multiple 2-way guys in recent years.  Tanner Dodson and Grant Holman, for starters. Even Andrew Vaughn for his freshman year.  Dodson is a still a 2-way, at least in part, in MiLB.

Not a P5 but check out how Long Beach State used Clayton Andrews during his only season there. (2018)  Brewers used him as a 2-way in high A and AA ball last year.

Exit Velocity is great, but I agree you have to be able to do it in a game. My grandson has  worked really hard this past off-season and now consistently hits 95 to 103 on HitTraks and has been killing it in BP. While he's never pitched in HS, he has thrown 90mph during testing and would consider being the teams closer if asked. He's 6'2"/200, runs a 6.92/60, throws 90, with an Exit Velocity at 103. His Junior year baseball season starts next week and we are hoping for great things.

Peach49 posted:

Exit Velocity is great, but I agree you have to be able to do it in a game. My grandson has  worked really hard this past off-season and now consistently hits 95 to 103 on HitTraks and has been killing it in BP. While he's never pitched in HS, he has thrown 90mph during testing and would consider being the teams closer if asked. He's 6'2"/200, runs a 6.92/60, throws 90, with an Exit Velocity at 103. His Junior year baseball season starts next week and we are hoping for great things.

Nice to see this kind of Grandparental pride.  I was really close with my Grandfather, I wish he could have seen his Great Grandchildren play.  You grandson has incredible metrics, and just as importantly a great work ethic.  Get him in front of people ASAP this spring, and if you can a connected travel coach.  A bit late in the game for P5 2021's, which your Grandson looks to be.  Gotta take advantage of every day, it's a quick window.  Best of luck to him, and keep the board informed. 

57special posted:

You can mess with the sensitivity of HitTraks and skew the numbers. For a joke, my son's friend's(a PO) team turned it up for him in BP. He hit one 900'.

Anything over 90 is good off a tee, assuming you are using a legit radar.

haha, that's a good practical joke.  My guy hits off Rapsodo, for his clean shots averaged between 92-95 off soft toss. On a recent Blast motion session had measured a 23.5 Peak Hand speed and 72.4 Bat Speed (measured from sweet spot).  So his metrics are all there, just has to get back to live pitching so he can perform during showcase games.  He's always hit for average, now trying to adjust his launch angle to get the slugging up.  

BBCOR Bats are standard for HS.
Exit Velocity for 12-14 year olds: Average = 70+mph, Excellent = 80+mph

Exit Velocity for HS: Average = 80+mph, Excellent = 90+mph

My 17year old HS Junior grandson was recently clocked at 103 on HitTraks and he is considered a D1 prospect by PBR. He is 6’3”/200, very athletic, 6.92/60, an 90mph OF throwing.

Exit Velocity is a good metric measurement but you still have to be able to translate that into game performance, but it definitely can get you noticed. 

FWIW, wouldn't it make sense for the guys at Dick's to mess with the HitTrax to make it seem like you were hitting it further and harder than usual in order to sell bats? Also, any time I saw one in Dicks they were not using actual baseballs. That has to factor in as well.

Francis7 posted:

FWIW, wouldn't it make sense for the guys at Dick's to mess with the HitTrax to make it seem like you were hitting it further and harder than usual in order to sell bats? Also, any time I saw one in Dicks they were not using actual baseballs. That has to factor in as well.

For sure, we viewed those numbers with a health degree of skepticism For the reasons you cite. Turns out they weren’t really far off.  Just did a Raspodo session last week (results posted a few days ago on this thread) which is fully accurate, and he hit 95+ off of soft toss. Anyway, all of this has sparked a heavy renewed interest in hitting and technique training, which is a positive development 

All PG exit velo's are WOOD BAT using a Pocket Radar.

PBR is a mixed bag. Mostly the exit velo's are metal (BBCOR - sure, but nobody is actually checking bats). Sometimes the exit velo's are in wood and lately they sometimes mark it on the profile as such. But usually not. The only PBR events I know of that are wood bat are of the "Procase" variety. Although at the recent New England Procase metal and wood  bats were used (they put out a note stating players could use one or the other).

So if you want a more accurate comparison of where your player is use a wood bat off a tee and compare him to his peers using PG exit velo's.

Francis7 posted:

FWIW, wouldn't it make sense for the guys at Dick's to mess with the HitTrax to make it seem like you were hitting it further and harder than usual in order to sell bats? Also, any time I saw one in Dicks they were not using actual baseballs. That has to factor in as well.

I think the intent of the hittrax in Dicks is to compare bats and to provide analytics for bat sizing.

Will posted:

Exit Velo .  Launch angle etc etc  How did the game ever survive without such terminology? 

*shakes fists at lawn* haha 

I think it’s cool, it’s an evolution of the game from an analytical perspective.  Does that sometimes alter the game with unintended consequences? Sure. The shift is clearly no ones definition of fan friendly baseball. But it’s also something that could be re-adjusted by rules to help re-calibrate.  As for exit velo and launch angle, it makes for more accurate scouting which I think is tough to argue against when it’s blended with old school analysis.  Obviously if a kid can swing 100+ but always bites on a change then it’s not worth much.  But fundamentally accurate measurement and data shows who has power and who doesn’t in a manner beyond the “eye test”.  

Add Reply

Likes (0)
×
×
×
×