son went to PBR this weekend and exit velo was taken off of a tee. Is this traditional or do some showcases take off of front toss or a coach throwing?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
off the T with a 32" is the standard that I am aware of. I wouldn't worry to much about the number, if the boy was 85 to 90 I think it is pretty much a non issue, if he is below you most likely already know hitting isn't his main strength, and above it is possible that it is...
old_school posted:off the T with a 32" is the standard that I am aware of. I wouldn't worry to much about the number, if the boy was 85 to 90 I think it is pretty much a non issue, if he is below you most likely already know hitting isn't his main strength, and above it is possible that it is...
Agreed, with the caveat that the OP has a 2020, so I'd give a little leeway in those numbers
If it's taken off a tee, then the 'pitch speed' variable is constant - zero. Therefore, you can compare one hitter to the next.
If you pitch to them, them the pitch speed will vary by pitch and you can't compare hitters, or even at bats.
I do have a 20....hitting has always been a strength....hes hit 90 mph exit velo off hit trax....75 mph Saturday off the tee...very disappointed!
edcoach posted:I do have a 20....hitting has always been a strength....hes hit 90 mph exit velo off hit trax....75 mph Saturday off the tee...very disappointed!
My (limited) understanding is that a 10-12 mph difference is common. So 90 off a tee may be 100+ mph in games.
well friday night off the tee he was 84 (max) but 90 off machine. Saturday off the tee was 75.
I wouldn't dwell on it to much, if he can hit he will have plenty of time to show it.
Off tee is the standard. Your son was probably a bit nervous and not trusting his lower half, also typical, if at one of his first showcases. If he hit 84 off tee recently, no worries, keep developing and building confidence. If that's the case you could always do another upcoming PBR if money not an issue.
I would make sure his other measurables are up to "speed"- position velo and 60 time. If he runs a 7.8, and throws 75, but hit 84 off tee, the overall result would be mediocre. But as a 2020 if he ran sub 7.2, threw 80, then with a 84 exit velo he'd get attention. But nothing crazy, still early....
Example: our area had a 2019 at his first PBR event a year ago; he threw 88 from IF and had exit velo of 94. This rec'd huge attention, accepted offer following summer at top D1 program. As a freshman kid was already 6'1 with big parents...very projectable.
Position? Current size?
We've all been there...
catcher....6'2 175 60 time 7.2 pop 2.02 c velo 73 he actually showcased with the infielders as well and was better there than catching (his main position) Unfortunately they only posted his catching numbers...for the record, he was nervous as it was his first showcase....no excuses though....going back to work!
edcoach posted:catcher....6'2 175 60 time 7.2 pop 2.02 c velo 73 he actually showcased with the infielders as well and was better there than catching (his main position) Unfortunately they only posted his catching numbers...for the record, he was nervous as it was his first showcase....no excuses though....going back to work!
all is well, work hard enjoy the ride, it is supposed to be fun.
edcoach, Did you watch him hit? Did it look like his typical contact to you? Even the most conscientious people working showcases make mistakes. At his size, and from what you've described, I wouldn't expect a number like that.
MidAtlanticDad posted:edcoach, Did you watch him hit? Did it look like his typical contact to you? Even the most conscientious people working showcases make mistakes. At his size, and from what you've described, I wouldn't expect a number like that.
Learning his size I concur. For example my sons 60 was misreported at a top showcase by roughly 3/4 of a second... Happens... son is 2018; lot of angst for us
edited typo
Most people coil in their shoulders only during tee hits. They do not coil in their hips as they would/should in a game. This will account for poor tee exit velo.
Midatlanticdad-i was about 100 ft awayhehit all 5 back in the screen about 10 feet away. It doesnt seem right at all...especially seeing kids he plays with that dont hit like him but were 85 mph plus
Exit velo is one subject I can't get my head around. Look at the Super 60 numbers. 106, 104, 102, 99, 99, 99.
OK, now my kid was 93 a couple of weeks ago where he works out. The thing is the kid just crushes the ball. In AZ a few weeks ago at the PG MLK tournament he hit a HR the easily went 400+ feet. So now you have a kid 13 mph faster. I mean what does that equate to, 475, 500, 525 feet? It would seem to me you'd hear about that.
The other thing I've noticed is, when you see a discrepancy such as this then look at cage work comparing the player with the higher number to one that is more normal the effort exhibited doesn't support the higher number.
No lower half ... key piece at this juncture... whatever stride he has, it's about sequencing from the ground up to produce power.
Coiling aids torque, combined with proper sequencing he'll generate the power
SomeBaseballDad posted:Exit velo is one subject I can't get my head around. Look at the Super 60 numbers. 106, 104, 102, 99, 99, 99.
OK, now my kid was 93 a couple of weeks ago where he works out. The thing is the kid just crushes the ball. In AZ a few weeks ago at the PG MLK tournament he hit a HR the easily went 400+ feet. So now you have a kid 13 mph faster. I mean what does that equate to, 475, 500, 525 feet? It would seem to me you'd hear about that.
The other thing I've noticed is, when you see a discrepancy such as this then look at cage work comparing the player with the higher number to one that is more normal the effort exhibited doesn't support the higher number.
The 106 kid has a big exit velo swing, but more relaxed and balanced in games. Line drive HRs are common... BUT, he struggled Frosh-Soph trying to figure out how to manage is power to hit the ball in games.. early on lots of strike outs, but now, he's developed an excellent approach & times up pitchers well.
My 2019 couple weeks ago at PBR had a 93 mph exit velo right-handed and 89 mph left-handed, catcher velocity was 80 mph outfield velocity was 89 mph , i've always question the true meaning of hitting off the tea for measurements
Those are great numbers. What was his pop?
edcoach posted:Midatlanticdad-i was about 100 ft awayhehit all 5 back in the screen about 10 feet away. It doesnt seem right at all...especially seeing kids he plays with that dont hit like him but were 85 mph plus
The PBR rep in my area was always very helpful and approachable. If I were you, I would send your rep a polite email asking if he would mind reviewing your son's exit velo numbers. Someone could have made an error transcribing them.
edcoach posted:Those are great numbers. What was his pop?
His pop was 1.94 but was 1.87 a few weeks before at another event . I guess it depends what he ate or who's doing the timing ��.
I checked the PG top pops for 2019 (1.81) and 2020 (1.94) so maybe the pops are legit...mine has been timed at 1.94 before as well but a full tenth more saturday...like you said, could be the timer or could be what they ate, lol
My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
Initech posted:My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
... and a 35 oz wood bat. 
initech which one was your son at? the one in oklahoma?
oh, sorry, New Jersey. I could not see the area where they did the exit velocity without walking over to it, which I didn't really want to do, despite my curiosity. 
Initech posted:My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
IMO, this is one of the concerns with more and more emphasis on exit velo. It's a good measurement tool, but can create some bad habits. I know, I know, what about pitching velo? Yes, there are correlations, but generally, a P can reach for a little extra sometimes and maybe miss his target by a few inches and still experience success, due to the extra velo. A hitter can't reach for extra and miss his target by a few inches... failure every time.
It is very important that the exit velo be developed within proper swing mechanics.
Exit velo is a matrix largely driven by parents. I've had conversations with both college and professional coaches. They view exit velo as a "fan based" analytic that could be used but the method of data collecting varies too much. In game analysis with live BP vs a "T" and letting it rip, which has little to no value on a hitters true ability.
A little info below, courtesy of Coach Lisle's emailing a couple of hours ago. Most can come to their own conclusion.
Baseball
- Hardest Hit Baseball in MLB 2016: Giancarlo Stanton, 123mph (ground out)
- Hardest Hit HomeRun in MLB 2016: Mike Trout, 120.5mph
In my experience the MLB guys I work with will live in the 96-103mph range in the cages as highs and average in the 90mph range. I’ve had one hitter get up to 108mph in the cages. With my college guys I have a few that hit 100mph. For my high school guys their goal is 90+ and for a few 95+. If you’re a HS baseball player using wood in the cages 90+ is a good goal to have. And if you hit that famous 100 mark, you let us know.
SomeBaseballDad posted:Exit velo is one subject I can't get my head around. Look at the Super 60 numbers. 106, 104, 102, 99, 99, 99.
OK, now my kid was 93 a couple of weeks ago where he works out. The thing is the kid just crushes the ball. In AZ a few weeks ago at the PG MLK tournament he hit a HR the easily went 400+ feet. So now you have a kid 13 mph faster. I mean what does that equate to, 475, 500, 525 feet? It would seem to me you'd hear about that.
The other thing I've noticed is, when you see a discrepancy such as this then look at cage work comparing the player with the higher number to one that is more normal the effort exhibited doesn't support the higher number.
There are many factors (well, maybe not many, but more than one) involved in how far a ball travels. Exit speed is just one of those factors and can't be used as a linear factor. Lift, spin rate, etc. also play huge roles. As mentioned above, I think the top three exit speeds ever recorded were gdp's.
Not sure if theres a link but my son was hitting off the tee using hit trax and most all of the time the highest exit velos came from ground balls or low line drives...they be 81-85...balls Ithought he crushed to the top of the net were usually 75-78 mph...fwiw
edcoach posted:Not sure if theres a link but my son was hitting off the tee using hit trax and most all of the time the highest exit velos came from ground balls or low line drives...they be 81-85...balls Ithought he crushed to the top of the net were usually 75-78 mph...fwiw
Yeah, perfect example of root's point... backspin will carry more but it is deflected contact and not direct contact so immediate exit velo will be less.
I understand other "factors" and that I'm not comparing apples to apples. If the difference were 93/95 or 93/97 I wouldn't give it a second thought, but 93/106..... I know what the kid has done, lead the state in HR'S most of the year last year. Looking up the other kid I don't see anything like that. So one is left with the conclusion that he either sucks vs live pitching or that number has been arrived at with something other than a normal swing. And I don't mean to pick on this one kid because I see this a lot.
At the risk of hijacking this thread I have to say I'm not a big fan of showcases. It's just not the exit velo, throwing velo is just as bad. I still think back to the few showcases we've been to. No effort was made as to form or accuracy of throws, just flung for the sake of high numbers. The one indoor event I remember windows were broken out. It blows my mind that any recruiter or scout gives any weight to performance at a showcase.
cabbagedad posted:Initech posted:My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
IMO, this is one of the concerns with more and more emphasis on exit velo. It's a good measurement tool, but can create some bad habits. I know, I know, what about pitching velo? Yes, there are correlations, but generally, a P can reach for a little extra sometimes and maybe miss his target by a few inches and still experience success, due to the extra velo. A hitter can't reach for extra and miss his target by a few inches... failure every time.
It is very important that the exit velo be developed within proper swing mechanics.
your last sentence is spot on. i mean, what good is an exit velocity reading if the swing is nothing like a live AB swing? i see many youth kids doing tee work and their swings are nothing like their game swings, i don't get it.
CAMBOB2020 posted:cabbagedad posted:Initech posted:My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
IMO, this is one of the concerns with more and more emphasis on exit velo. It's a good measurement tool, but can create some bad habits. I know, I know, what about pitching velo? Yes, there are correlations, but generally, a P can reach for a little extra sometimes and maybe miss his target by a few inches and still experience success, due to the extra velo. A hitter can't reach for extra and miss his target by a few inches... failure every time.
It is very important that the exit velo be developed within proper swing mechanics.
your last sentence is spot on. i mean, what good is an exit velocity reading if the swing is nothing like a live AB swing? i see many youth kids doing tee work and their swings are nothing like their game swings, i don't get it.
Totally agree , I have seen kids take a swing 100 mph but can hit live fastball ..and her swings are totally different from the TEe than when in the box
My son's hitting coach said dont use a tee
We have had this discussion many times but it is always worthwhile. What good is tee exit velocity? It shows POTENTIAL nothing else. So if your exit velocity is 68 you are finished. Unless you could literally hit a line drive 100% of the time and have it drop in front of or to the side of outfielders its over for you. You simply do not have what it takes to hit college pitching. Here is what people forget, it is not all about distance the ball can travel. It is about reaction time as well. The slower your bat speed the sooner you have to start your swing. At the college level you will get fooled too often and have already committed to your swing cause you have to start early. The 100 EV guy can wait longer and read the pitch more. This does not guarantee success to the 100 guy but he has a chance. He has the potential to hit college pitching. The 68 guy has zero chance. Even if the 68 guy is a 'better hitter' than the 100 guy in high school the 100 guy has a better chance of hitting in college. Now these are two extreme examples. Where do they actually draw the line? Seems like 85 or so is the rock bottom for D1 and that is only for guys with something else special, speed, slick fielding etc. They are the exceptions. 90 seems to be the baseline otherwise. For corner guys its more like upper 90's. Is there an exit velo that guarantees you someone will take you as a project? Don't know. Most 100+ guys are good hitters.
As a practical purpose, from an instruction point of view, I only use Tee work for one purpose - intent. This is where they learn to hit the $%#^ out of the ball. It's hard for kids to learn to swing hard when they are concentrating on a moving object. I don't evaluate their form (don't really have them on a tee if their form needs major work, anyway), I just tell them to smack it. They compete against the gun. In my experience, it carries over to live at bats.
As an evaluation tool, I agree with 2020DAD, it's one of those things that shows potential to compete at the next level. The kid with perfect form and great HS stats that can't lift the ball off the tee over 80mph will find that quicker fielders at the next level will eat him up and success is almost impossible, whereas the guy bombing 95mph shots off the tee might adjust and compete. That kid also has a lot more room for error.
thx guys....agree with both of you...my 2020 is better than 75 mph....that was humbling
edcoach posted:thx guys....agree with both of you...my 2020 is better than 75 mph....that was humbling
I gun exit velocities off the tee every night right now. At these showcases you get a limited number of swings off the tee. To really get your top velo, you have to nail at least one that doesn't drag the tee and is solid. Some guys who aren't used to hitting a lot off the tee (I know plenty of good hitting coaches that don't use a tee at all) can easily go five swings without a solid tee shot. Now, a scout/recruiter isn't going to put a lot of stock in that exit velocity unless it lines up with everything else they see. If a kid looks like a total dork at the plate, but has a 92mph ev off the tee, they aren't going to care much and if your kid is lining hard shots all over the field against live pitching, but is only 75mph off the tee, they are going to be skeptical of the exit velocity and not what they are seeing with their own eyes.
What a high exit velocity will do for a kid though is attract a recruiter to take a look at a kid that he might otherwise ignore. If he's looking down a list of ev's from a showcase and is looking for a position player with a bat, he's far more likely to look further into the kid with the 90mph than the kid with the 70mph.
My own son usually does these as a pitcher only, but occasionally does work as an outfielder and hits in these. Last summer a Power 5 school called him with interest. It was incredibly not until the third call from this coach that it finally dawned on my son that they had no interest in him as a pitcher. This coach started talking about how he would fit in at first base (we have never sold him as a position player. The reason? He had a fantastic round of BP at a major showcase. His exit velocity off the tee at that showcase? 81mph. He didn't seem to care much about that because he was going off of what he saw with his own eyes. He was never good off the tee because we almost never hit off a tee. This off-season, he's worked pretty hard on just improving his exit velocity off of a tee, not because he even wants to hit at the college level - he doesn't - he just wants that 81 off the books on PG. He's currently 88-91. Just a matter of pride. So, my suggestion for showcase work would be spend some time just seeing how hard you can hit the ball off the tee. Not working on anything else - just knocking the crap out of the ball.