son went to PBR this weekend and exit velo was taken off of a tee. Is this traditional or do some showcases take off of front toss or a coach throwing?
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off the T with a 32" is the standard that I am aware of. I wouldn't worry to much about the number, if the boy was 85 to 90 I think it is pretty much a non issue, if he is below you most likely already know hitting isn't his main strength, and above it is possible that it is...
old_school posted:off the T with a 32" is the standard that I am aware of. I wouldn't worry to much about the number, if the boy was 85 to 90 I think it is pretty much a non issue, if he is below you most likely already know hitting isn't his main strength, and above it is possible that it is...
Agreed, with the caveat that the OP has a 2020, so I'd give a little leeway in those numbers
If it's taken off a tee, then the 'pitch speed' variable is constant - zero. Therefore, you can compare one hitter to the next.
If you pitch to them, them the pitch speed will vary by pitch and you can't compare hitters, or even at bats.
I do have a 20....hitting has always been a strength....hes hit 90 mph exit velo off hit trax....75 mph Saturday off the tee...very disappointed!
edcoach posted:I do have a 20....hitting has always been a strength....hes hit 90 mph exit velo off hit trax....75 mph Saturday off the tee...very disappointed!
My (limited) understanding is that a 10-12 mph difference is common. So 90 off a tee may be 100+ mph in games.
well friday night off the tee he was 84 (max) but 90 off machine. Saturday off the tee was 75.
I wouldn't dwell on it to much, if he can hit he will have plenty of time to show it.
Off tee is the standard. Your son was probably a bit nervous and not trusting his lower half, also typical, if at one of his first showcases. If he hit 84 off tee recently, no worries, keep developing and building confidence. If that's the case you could always do another upcoming PBR if money not an issue.
I would make sure his other measurables are up to "speed"- position velo and 60 time. If he runs a 7.8, and throws 75, but hit 84 off tee, the overall result would be mediocre. But as a 2020 if he ran sub 7.2, threw 80, then with a 84 exit velo he'd get attention. But nothing crazy, still early....
Example: our area had a 2019 at his first PBR event a year ago; he threw 88 from IF and had exit velo of 94. This rec'd huge attention, accepted offer following summer at top D1 program. As a freshman kid was already 6'1 with big parents...very projectable.
Position? Current size?
We've all been there...
catcher....6'2 175 60 time 7.2 pop 2.02 c velo 73 he actually showcased with the infielders as well and was better there than catching (his main position) Unfortunately they only posted his catching numbers...for the record, he was nervous as it was his first showcase....no excuses though....going back to work!
edcoach posted:catcher....6'2 175 60 time 7.2 pop 2.02 c velo 73 he actually showcased with the infielders as well and was better there than catching (his main position) Unfortunately they only posted his catching numbers...for the record, he was nervous as it was his first showcase....no excuses though....going back to work!
all is well, work hard enjoy the ride, it is supposed to be fun.
edcoach, Did you watch him hit? Did it look like his typical contact to you? Even the most conscientious people working showcases make mistakes. At his size, and from what you've described, I wouldn't expect a number like that.
MidAtlanticDad posted:edcoach, Did you watch him hit? Did it look like his typical contact to you? Even the most conscientious people working showcases make mistakes. At his size, and from what you've described, I wouldn't expect a number like that.
Learning his size I concur. For example my sons 60 was misreported at a top showcase by roughly 3/4 of a second... Happens... son is 2018; lot of angst for us
edited typo
Most people coil in their shoulders only during tee hits. They do not coil in their hips as they would/should in a game. This will account for poor tee exit velo.
Midatlanticdad-i was about 100 ft awayhehit all 5 back in the screen about 10 feet away. It doesnt seem right at all...especially seeing kids he plays with that dont hit like him but were 85 mph plus
Exit velo is one subject I can't get my head around. Look at the Super 60 numbers. 106, 104, 102, 99, 99, 99.
OK, now my kid was 93 a couple of weeks ago where he works out. The thing is the kid just crushes the ball. In AZ a few weeks ago at the PG MLK tournament he hit a HR the easily went 400+ feet. So now you have a kid 13 mph faster. I mean what does that equate to, 475, 500, 525 feet? It would seem to me you'd hear about that.
The other thing I've noticed is, when you see a discrepancy such as this then look at cage work comparing the player with the higher number to one that is more normal the effort exhibited doesn't support the higher number.
No lower half ... key piece at this juncture... whatever stride he has, it's about sequencing from the ground up to produce power.
Coiling aids torque, combined with proper sequencing he'll generate the power
SomeBaseballDad posted:Exit velo is one subject I can't get my head around. Look at the Super 60 numbers. 106, 104, 102, 99, 99, 99.
OK, now my kid was 93 a couple of weeks ago where he works out. The thing is the kid just crushes the ball. In AZ a few weeks ago at the PG MLK tournament he hit a HR the easily went 400+ feet. So now you have a kid 13 mph faster. I mean what does that equate to, 475, 500, 525 feet? It would seem to me you'd hear about that.
The other thing I've noticed is, when you see a discrepancy such as this then look at cage work comparing the player with the higher number to one that is more normal the effort exhibited doesn't support the higher number.
The 106 kid has a big exit velo swing, but more relaxed and balanced in games. Line drive HRs are common... BUT, he struggled Frosh-Soph trying to figure out how to manage is power to hit the ball in games.. early on lots of strike outs, but now, he's developed an excellent approach & times up pitchers well.
My 2019 couple weeks ago at PBR had a 93 mph exit velo right-handed and 89 mph left-handed, catcher velocity was 80 mph outfield velocity was 89 mph , i've always question the true meaning of hitting off the tea for measurements
Those are great numbers. What was his pop?
edcoach posted:Midatlanticdad-i was about 100 ft awayhehit all 5 back in the screen about 10 feet away. It doesnt seem right at all...especially seeing kids he plays with that dont hit like him but were 85 mph plus
The PBR rep in my area was always very helpful and approachable. If I were you, I would send your rep a polite email asking if he would mind reviewing your son's exit velo numbers. Someone could have made an error transcribing them.
edcoach posted:Those are great numbers. What was his pop?
His pop was 1.94 but was 1.87 a few weeks before at another event . I guess it depends what he ate or who's doing the timing ��.
I checked the PG top pops for 2019 (1.81) and 2020 (1.94) so maybe the pops are legit...mine has been timed at 1.94 before as well but a full tenth more saturday...like you said, could be the timer or could be what they ate, lol
My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
Initech posted:My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
... and a 35 oz wood bat. 
initech which one was your son at? the one in oklahoma?
oh, sorry, New Jersey. I could not see the area where they did the exit velocity without walking over to it, which I didn't really want to do, despite my curiosity. 
Initech posted:My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
IMO, this is one of the concerns with more and more emphasis on exit velo. It's a good measurement tool, but can create some bad habits. I know, I know, what about pitching velo? Yes, there are correlations, but generally, a P can reach for a little extra sometimes and maybe miss his target by a few inches and still experience success, due to the extra velo. A hitter can't reach for extra and miss his target by a few inches... failure every time.
It is very important that the exit velo be developed within proper swing mechanics.
Exit velo is a matrix largely driven by parents. I've had conversations with both college and professional coaches. They view exit velo as a "fan based" analytic that could be used but the method of data collecting varies too much. In game analysis with live BP vs a "T" and letting it rip, which has little to no value on a hitters true ability.
A little info below, courtesy of Coach Lisle's emailing a couple of hours ago. Most can come to their own conclusion.
Baseball
- Hardest Hit Baseball in MLB 2016: Giancarlo Stanton, 123mph (ground out)
- Hardest Hit HomeRun in MLB 2016: Mike Trout, 120.5mph
In my experience the MLB guys I work with will live in the 96-103mph range in the cages as highs and average in the 90mph range. I’ve had one hitter get up to 108mph in the cages. With my college guys I have a few that hit 100mph. For my high school guys their goal is 90+ and for a few 95+. If you’re a HS baseball player using wood in the cages 90+ is a good goal to have. And if you hit that famous 100 mark, you let us know.
SomeBaseballDad posted:Exit velo is one subject I can't get my head around. Look at the Super 60 numbers. 106, 104, 102, 99, 99, 99.
OK, now my kid was 93 a couple of weeks ago where he works out. The thing is the kid just crushes the ball. In AZ a few weeks ago at the PG MLK tournament he hit a HR the easily went 400+ feet. So now you have a kid 13 mph faster. I mean what does that equate to, 475, 500, 525 feet? It would seem to me you'd hear about that.
The other thing I've noticed is, when you see a discrepancy such as this then look at cage work comparing the player with the higher number to one that is more normal the effort exhibited doesn't support the higher number.
There are many factors (well, maybe not many, but more than one) involved in how far a ball travels. Exit speed is just one of those factors and can't be used as a linear factor. Lift, spin rate, etc. also play huge roles. As mentioned above, I think the top three exit speeds ever recorded were gdp's.
Not sure if theres a link but my son was hitting off the tee using hit trax and most all of the time the highest exit velos came from ground balls or low line drives...they be 81-85...balls Ithought he crushed to the top of the net were usually 75-78 mph...fwiw
edcoach posted:Not sure if theres a link but my son was hitting off the tee using hit trax and most all of the time the highest exit velos came from ground balls or low line drives...they be 81-85...balls Ithought he crushed to the top of the net were usually 75-78 mph...fwiw
Yeah, perfect example of root's point... backspin will carry more but it is deflected contact and not direct contact so immediate exit velo will be less.
I understand other "factors" and that I'm not comparing apples to apples. If the difference were 93/95 or 93/97 I wouldn't give it a second thought, but 93/106..... I know what the kid has done, lead the state in HR'S most of the year last year. Looking up the other kid I don't see anything like that. So one is left with the conclusion that he either sucks vs live pitching or that number has been arrived at with something other than a normal swing. And I don't mean to pick on this one kid because I see this a lot.
At the risk of hijacking this thread I have to say I'm not a big fan of showcases. It's just not the exit velo, throwing velo is just as bad. I still think back to the few showcases we've been to. No effort was made as to form or accuracy of throws, just flung for the sake of high numbers. The one indoor event I remember windows were broken out. It blows my mind that any recruiter or scout gives any weight to performance at a showcase.
cabbagedad posted:Initech posted:My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
IMO, this is one of the concerns with more and more emphasis on exit velo. It's a good measurement tool, but can create some bad habits. I know, I know, what about pitching velo? Yes, there are correlations, but generally, a P can reach for a little extra sometimes and maybe miss his target by a few inches and still experience success, due to the extra velo. A hitter can't reach for extra and miss his target by a few inches... failure every time.
It is very important that the exit velo be developed within proper swing mechanics.
your last sentence is spot on. i mean, what good is an exit velocity reading if the swing is nothing like a live AB swing? i see many youth kids doing tee work and their swings are nothing like their game swings, i don't get it.
CAMBOB2020 posted:cabbagedad posted:Initech posted:My son was at that showcase as well. He said a kid got 100MPH exit velocity, but that required twisting his whole body around to swing. It was certainly not an "in-game" swing.
IMO, this is one of the concerns with more and more emphasis on exit velo. It's a good measurement tool, but can create some bad habits. I know, I know, what about pitching velo? Yes, there are correlations, but generally, a P can reach for a little extra sometimes and maybe miss his target by a few inches and still experience success, due to the extra velo. A hitter can't reach for extra and miss his target by a few inches... failure every time.
It is very important that the exit velo be developed within proper swing mechanics.
your last sentence is spot on. i mean, what good is an exit velocity reading if the swing is nothing like a live AB swing? i see many youth kids doing tee work and their swings are nothing like their game swings, i don't get it.
Totally agree , I have seen kids take a swing 100 mph but can hit live fastball ..and her swings are totally different from the TEe than when in the box
My son's hitting coach said dont use a tee
We have had this discussion many times but it is always worthwhile. What good is tee exit velocity? It shows POTENTIAL nothing else. So if your exit velocity is 68 you are finished. Unless you could literally hit a line drive 100% of the time and have it drop in front of or to the side of outfielders its over for you. You simply do not have what it takes to hit college pitching. Here is what people forget, it is not all about distance the ball can travel. It is about reaction time as well. The slower your bat speed the sooner you have to start your swing. At the college level you will get fooled too often and have already committed to your swing cause you have to start early. The 100 EV guy can wait longer and read the pitch more. This does not guarantee success to the 100 guy but he has a chance. He has the potential to hit college pitching. The 68 guy has zero chance. Even if the 68 guy is a 'better hitter' than the 100 guy in high school the 100 guy has a better chance of hitting in college. Now these are two extreme examples. Where do they actually draw the line? Seems like 85 or so is the rock bottom for D1 and that is only for guys with something else special, speed, slick fielding etc. They are the exceptions. 90 seems to be the baseline otherwise. For corner guys its more like upper 90's. Is there an exit velo that guarantees you someone will take you as a project? Don't know. Most 100+ guys are good hitters.
As a practical purpose, from an instruction point of view, I only use Tee work for one purpose - intent. This is where they learn to hit the $%#^ out of the ball. It's hard for kids to learn to swing hard when they are concentrating on a moving object. I don't evaluate their form (don't really have them on a tee if their form needs major work, anyway), I just tell them to smack it. They compete against the gun. In my experience, it carries over to live at bats.
As an evaluation tool, I agree with 2020DAD, it's one of those things that shows potential to compete at the next level. The kid with perfect form and great HS stats that can't lift the ball off the tee over 80mph will find that quicker fielders at the next level will eat him up and success is almost impossible, whereas the guy bombing 95mph shots off the tee might adjust and compete. That kid also has a lot more room for error.
thx guys....agree with both of you...my 2020 is better than 75 mph....that was humbling
edcoach posted:thx guys....agree with both of you...my 2020 is better than 75 mph....that was humbling
I gun exit velocities off the tee every night right now. At these showcases you get a limited number of swings off the tee. To really get your top velo, you have to nail at least one that doesn't drag the tee and is solid. Some guys who aren't used to hitting a lot off the tee (I know plenty of good hitting coaches that don't use a tee at all) can easily go five swings without a solid tee shot. Now, a scout/recruiter isn't going to put a lot of stock in that exit velocity unless it lines up with everything else they see. If a kid looks like a total dork at the plate, but has a 92mph ev off the tee, they aren't going to care much and if your kid is lining hard shots all over the field against live pitching, but is only 75mph off the tee, they are going to be skeptical of the exit velocity and not what they are seeing with their own eyes.
What a high exit velocity will do for a kid though is attract a recruiter to take a look at a kid that he might otherwise ignore. If he's looking down a list of ev's from a showcase and is looking for a position player with a bat, he's far more likely to look further into the kid with the 90mph than the kid with the 70mph.
My own son usually does these as a pitcher only, but occasionally does work as an outfielder and hits in these. Last summer a Power 5 school called him with interest. It was incredibly not until the third call from this coach that it finally dawned on my son that they had no interest in him as a pitcher. This coach started talking about how he would fit in at first base (we have never sold him as a position player. The reason? He had a fantastic round of BP at a major showcase. His exit velocity off the tee at that showcase? 81mph. He didn't seem to care much about that because he was going off of what he saw with his own eyes. He was never good off the tee because we almost never hit off a tee. This off-season, he's worked pretty hard on just improving his exit velocity off of a tee, not because he even wants to hit at the college level - he doesn't - he just wants that 81 off the books on PG. He's currently 88-91. Just a matter of pride. So, my suggestion for showcase work would be spend some time just seeing how hard you can hit the ball off the tee. Not working on anything else - just knocking the crap out of the ball.
Thx Root...we spent about a week off the tee prior to the showcase. I dont know if we'll do another showcase where there is no live hitting on a field. They were in very small cages...thete was a tee cage for exit velo....soft toss for form and live coach throwing to video from.
Adding to what root says we do five swing bursts. I tell him there is no way we are wasting money on a showcase til I can be convinced he bare minimum hits 90. That means a five pitch grouping rarely goes by without at least one 90. Currently he is topping 88 so not even there yet. 85 is the highest number he can be sure of hitting in any grouping of five. If and when that 85 becomes 90 we will have a decision to make. But I also feel your pain. We were at a college camp and they told him his EV was 67. Now there is no possible way that could be accurate. We weren't going to dispute it since it made no difference really. But if it were a showcase I probably would. They had to get two kids mixed up or something. At tryouts when he was 12 he was gunned at 73 with bbcor by the organization head with a stalker. 80 the following year by same guy. Then he went to this camp. No way possible he could have been 67. It was college kids doing the gun and they were literally like 3 feet from him. I don't think the gun could react correctly. So mistakes do in fact happen.
my humble opinion is that there's as much consistency in exit velocities as there is in 60 yard dashes- which is to say not much, and probably less. Just as I've seen 60s run in all conditions- electronic, hand timed, long grass, short grass, with the wind, against the wind- I've seen exit velos taken off the tee, using short toss, using standard bp, etc etc. Even seen the velos transcribed wrong - bottom line is that I wouldn't get too wrapped up in it, especially at a young age. Most of these kids will be seen enough that they'll figure out if they have enough pop in their bat, if they are fast enough, and if they have a strong enough arm. Just keep working and use the measurable as motivation to improve.
Not bad. I'm at 45mph off a tee with a 33/29. 60mph cvelo.
hsbaseball101 posted:Not bad. I'm at 45mph off a tee with a 33/29. 60mph cvelo.
I would never dare to find out because it means someone would have to operate the gun and much embarrassment would follow.
2020Dad,
Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity. Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.
We tend to get a higher level player at our events. The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.
Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph. Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities. But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.
PGStaff posted:2020Dad,
Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity. Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.
We tend to get a higher level player at our events. The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.
Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph. Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities. But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.
Do you have an average exit velo for live at-bats for 2020's?
The only average exit velocities we can record from live ABs is in our national indoor hitting league.
We do record live ABs when they stand out in games. Actually TrackMan does that. And when we use TrackMan all the data gets entered, so I guess we could find a TM exit velocity average, but it would only include those that hit when TM was being used, so not really a true average.
To me "average" exit velocity against pitching, not off a tee, is a very important number. Not only shows peak velocity, but average shows consistency of squaring up pitches. Obviously the biggest problem with average exit velocity is the quality of pitching. But in cases like the indoor hitting league where all the pitching machines are set at equal velocity... You could make an argument that the very best hitter would have the highest "average" exit velo, no matter what the other statistics said. Without knowing for sure, I would bet the top hitters in MLB would also have the top "average" exit velocity over the whole season.
Still that doesn't account for the most important things of all... Being able to hit high level pitching, breaking balls, etc. But that player that had the highest average exit velocity, would be someone scouts should want to see ASAP against good pitching.
PGStaff posted:The only average exit velocities we can record from live ABs is in our national indoor hitting league.
We do record live ABs when they stand out in games. Actually TrackMan does that. And when we use TrackMan all the data gets entered, so I guess we could find a TM exit velocity average, but it would only include those that hit when TM was being used, so not really a true average.
To me "average" exit velocity against pitching, not off a tee, is a very important number. Not only shows peak velocity, but average shows consistency of squaring up pitches. Obviously the biggest problem with average exit velocity is the quality of pitching. But in cases like the indoor hitting league where all the pitching machines are set at equal velocity... You could make an argument that the very best hitter would have the highest "average" exit velo, no matter what the other statistics said. Without knowing for sure, I would bet the top hitters in MLB would also have the top "average" exit velocity over the whole season.
Still that doesn't account for the most important things of all... Being able to hit high level pitching, breaking balls, etc. But that player that had the highest average exit velocity, would be someone scouts should want to see ASAP against good pitching.
Thanks!
Good info.
I've found that slow front toss my son's exit velo was mid to high 80s. But off a tee it is high 70s to 80. He's a line drive hitter. His very old friend who looks to be going to D2, I swear, visually has a big, slow-looking, looping swing. But he can hit low 90s off a tee. He can hit some deep shots, but those seem to be rarer than line drives. But he's 6'2" and my son is 5'10" so D3 was the best my son could aspire to (and he's going to go to Virginia Tech and try to play club so all is very good). I guess the eye test can be wrong and that's why we have machines...
Excuse me if I ruffle some feathers , but the size of a kid doesn't always equal power! My 2019 exit velo is 93 righty he's 5'9 170lbs -lefty is 90mph but all his swings look faster live . Than off a tee. They told him he's looks to do damage and every swing .
2018 his team mate 6'5 250 pounds lefty -88mph
ive seen so many cant miss guys, miss !
exit speed is huge in our household , but it's not the end all . I've seen bigger kids get high exit in BP , but anyone can hit BP .
my 2019 did hit 89.6 off TrackMan at Lakepoint off the top of the fence when he was 140lbs in July and the kid was throwing 75mph , so I have no idea what that means . My advice is swing as hard as you can but make sure you hit ,lol and get in the weight room ..
PBR loves to highlight the big exit velos and many times its misleading into their overall assessment of the player. I know many who practice and mastered the techniques to use for putting up the big numbers. Their swing isn't even close to resembling the same during their BP or in a game. Similar with OF velo. Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed. Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.
c2019 posted:Excuse me if I ruffle some feathers , but the size of a kid doesn't always equal power! My 2019 exit velo is 93 righty he's 5'9 170lbs -lefty is 90mph but all his swings look faster live . Than off a tee. They told him he's looks to do damage and every swing .
2018 his team mate 6'5 250 pounds lefty -88mph
ive seen so many cant miss guys, miss !
exit speed is huge in our household , but it's not the end all . I've seen bigger kids get high exit in BP , but anyone can hit BP .
my 2019 did hit 89.6 off TrackMan at Lakepoint off the top of the fence when he was 140lbs in July and the kid was throwing 75mph , so I have no idea what that means . My advice is swing as hard as you can but make sure you hit ,lol and get in the weight room ..
If that was even somewhat directed at me, I'd say sure I agree with you. Our local "player makes it big" is Joe Rizzo and he's maybe my son's height but his swing is amazing and he simply crushes balls. He's also really built.
My son is 5'10" and 175 and he's pretty ripped. He also runs a 6.95 60. But as a catcher, his pop-times were consistently 2 to 2.1 combined with his size and his exit velo, was simply not getting more than D3 looks. That's fine. Looking forward to final season of HS ball. Good luck you your 2019.
Batty67 posted:c2019 posted:Excuse me if I ruffle some feathers , but the size of a kid doesn't always equal power! My 2019 exit velo is 93 righty he's 5'9 170lbs -lefty is 90mph but all his swings look faster live . Than off a tee. They told him he's looks to do damage and every swing .
2018 his team mate 6'5 250 pounds lefty -88mph
ive seen so many cant miss guys, miss !
exit speed is huge in our household , but it's not the end all . I've seen bigger kids get high exit in BP , but anyone can hit BP .
my 2019 did hit 89.6 off TrackMan at Lakepoint off the top of the fence when he was 140lbs in July and the kid was throwing 75mph , so I have no idea what that means . My advice is swing as hard as you can but make sure you hit ,lol and get in the weight room ..
If that was even somewhat directed at me, I'd say sure I agree with you. Our local "player makes it big" is Joe Rizzo and he's maybe my son's height but his swing is amazing and he simply crushes balls. He's also really built.
My son is 5'10" and 175 and he's pretty ripped. He also runs a 6.95 60. But as a catcher, his pop-times were consistently 2 to 2.1 combined with his size and his exit velo, was simply not getting more than D3 looks. That's fine. Looking forward to final season of HS ball. Good luck you your 2019.
Batty -no it wasn't . I just keep getting alerts from this post . Don't mind my 1.5 cents, I don't much, just passion kicks in ��
wsoxfanatic posted:Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed. Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.
Explain a little further.
roothog66 posted:wsoxfanatic posted:Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed. Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.
Explain a little further.
Is this about pop-times for catchers? I've heard that on artificial turf, or an extremely well-kept grass IF, a one-hopper right on target does not lose much velocity or accuracy. But I'd be skeptical as an approach...
PGStaff posted:2020Dad,
Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity. Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.
We tend to get a higher level player at our events. The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.
Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph. Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities. But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.
Interesting, were those middle Infielders mostly? My son I think is shooting for the dubious distinction of being the only 100mph+ guy to not be recruited! Keep hoping his growth stops and his balance improves... maybe this will be the year. Or maybe he will continue to be a so so hitter with a ton of 'potential'. So PG if you're still checking this thread a question for you. In your experience I am sure you see 90+ pitchers who are wild with poor secondary pitches picked up by someone believing they can develop them. Do you see the same with hitters? So in other words will a school take a flyer on a kid with a 100mph EV?
Batty67 posted:roothog66 posted:wsoxfanatic posted:Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed. Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.
Explain a little further.
Is this about pop-times for catchers? I've heard that on artificial turf, or an extremely well-kept grass IF, a one-hopper right on target does not lose much velocity or accuracy. But I'd be skeptical as an approach...
Sort of an old wives tale, like the old idea that an infielder skipping it on the turf on a throw to first allows the ball to pick up speed. That idea is actually impossible by the laws of physics. What happens is basically a visual trick. Your eye, following the ball expects it to slow more than it does and it simply appears to pick up speed. In reality, you lose velocity this way. No amount of spin or skip can overcome the physics involved with a moving body experiencing resistance.
c2019 posted:Excuse me if I ruffle some feathers , but the size of a kid doesn't always equal power! My 2019 exit velo is 93 righty he's 5'9 170lbs -lefty is 90mph but all his swings look faster live . Than off a tee. They told him he's looks to do damage and every swing .
2018 his team mate 6'5 250 pounds lefty -88mph
ive seen so many cant miss guys, miss !
exit speed is huge in our household , but it's not the end all . I've seen bigger kids get high exit in BP , but anyone can hit BP .
my 2019 did hit 89.6 off TrackMan at Lakepoint off the top of the fence when he was 140lbs in July and the kid was throwing 75mph , so I have no idea what that means . My advice is swing as hard as you can but make sure you hit ,lol and get in the weight room ..
My kid is a big kid and you certainly aren't ruffling my feathers. I agree 100% with you. It's about strength not size.
roothog66 posted:Batty67 posted:roothog66 posted:wsoxfanatic posted:Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed. Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.
Explain a little further.
Is this about pop-times for catchers? I've heard that on artificial turf, or an extremely well-kept grass IF, a one-hopper right on target does not lose much velocity or accuracy. But I'd be skeptical as an approach...
Sort of an old wives tale, like the old idea that an infielder skipping it on the turf on a throw to first allows the ball to pick up speed. That idea is actually impossible by the laws of physics. What happens is basically a visual trick. Your eye, following the ball expects it to slow more than it does and it simply appears to pick up speed. In reality, you lose velocity this way. No amount of spin or skip can overcome the physics involved with a moving body experiencing resistance.
I agree. But in general, a HC would rather see a rocket one-hopper right on target compared to a poorly located bullet throw in the air.
wsoxfanatic posted:PBR loves to highlight the big exit velos and many times its misleading into their overall assessment of the player. I know many who practice and mastered the techniques to use for putting up the big numbers. Their swing isn't even close to resembling the same during their BP or in a game. Similar with OF velo. Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed. Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.
I think you can manipulate the numbers a little but not that much. Maybe you can pick up a few mph but not much more.
Sorry, no didn't mean the skipping gets you increased mph, but the technique of throwing downward to the target vs carrying results in a faster throw. Skipping can shorten the route so to speak.
wsoxfanatic posted:Sorry, no didn't mean the skipping gets you increased mph, but the technique of throwing downward to the target vs carrying results in a faster throw. Skipping can shorten the route so to speak.
I was speaking more about exit velo. I don't think it is quite that easy to 'swing out of your shoes' and gain significant exit velocity.
Thx for the info pg....i just see the kids that I know my son outhits snd their exit velo was 84 or 85. We are gonna just keep working, getting stronger and faster and see what happens
2020dad posted:PGStaff posted:2020Dad,
Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity. Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.
We tend to get a higher level player at our events. The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.
Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph. Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities. But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.
Interesting, were those middle Infielders mostly? My son I think is shooting for the dubious distinction of being the only 100mph+ guy to not be recruited! Keep hoping his growth stops and his balance improves... maybe this will be the year. Or maybe he will continue to be a so so hitter with a ton of 'potential'. So PG if you're still checking this thread a question for you. In your experience I am sure you see 90+ pitchers who are wild with poor secondary pitches picked up by someone believing they can develop them. Do you see the same with hitters? So in other words will a school take a flyer on a kid with a 100mph EV?
I don't think that any guy with a 100 ev would not get recruited. Ev probably gets a little overrated by some and hit tool, defense and for some positions even speed might come before ev but a 100 mph guy is so athletic that he probably excells at the other stuff too.
And regarding using a big windup and long swing: that might add 3 to 4 mph but you dont hit well over 90 with any swing if you are not athletic. Exit velocity is a measure of raw athleticism and not skill.
And if you hit 100 you probably get recruited even without good other tools since that points to huge power. A scout might prefer 86 mph ev with good defense and hit tool over 91 without but at 100 the raw power is so great that many might take a chance even if the other skills are not there yet, just like a guy that throws 95 will get many chances to prove he can't pitch.
In the end exit velo is just one tool (raw power) but it is somewhat a good indicator not just because it shows power but also because it correlates with other athletic tools like throwing velo in many cases (although not in all cases, for example I have hit upper 80s exit velo with the bat but only like mid 60s with the arm, I just can't throw).
100 Exit velo will get you recruited, a 2017 on my sons team proved this to me. He is big kid 6'3" with 98-100 exit velo. got recruited by an amazing amount of schools...stunned every one. The boy can't hit, he doesn't square up balls, he isn't athletic...just take the under on AB's, playing time, and any other stat you can imagine. he will be a 1 and done, and it is shame because he his a damn nice kid who has stars in his eyes.
Recruiting isn't anywhere close to a science that has been proven to me for sure.
Dominik85 posted:2020dad posted:PGStaff posted:2020Dad,
Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity. Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.
We tend to get a higher level player at our events. The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.
Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph. Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities. But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.
Interesting, were those middle Infielders mostly? My son I think is shooting for the dubious distinction of being the only 100mph+ guy to not be recruited! Keep hoping his growth stops and his balance improves... maybe this will be the year. Or maybe he will continue to be a so so hitter with a ton of 'potential'. So PG if you're still checking this thread a question for you. In your experience I am sure you see 90+ pitchers who are wild with poor secondary pitches picked up by someone believing they can develop them. Do you see the same with hitters? So in other words will a school take a flyer on a kid with a 100mph EV?
I don't think that any guy with a 100 ev would not get recruited. Ev probably gets a little overrated by some and hit tool, defense and for some positions even speed might come before ev but a 100 mph guy is so athletic that he probably excells at the other stuff too.
And regarding using a big windup and long swing: that might add 3 to 4 mph but you dont hit well over 90 with any swing if you are not athletic. Exit velocity is a measure of raw athleticism and not skill.
And if you hit 100 you probably get recruited even without good other tools since that points to huge power. A scout might prefer 86 mph ev with good defense and hit tool over 91 without but at 100 the raw power is so great that many might take a chance even if the other skills are not there yet, just like a guy that throws 95 will get many chances to prove he can't pitch.
In the end exit velo is just one tool (raw power) but it is somewhat a good indicator not just because it shows power but also because it correlates with other athletic tools like throwing velo in many cases (although not in all cases, for example I have hit upper 80s exit velo with the bat but only like mid 60s with the arm, I just can't throw).
DOM -this is good info , I know not everyone sees it the same way, but Tools is what they look for, College ready or Pro ready in some cases, now im just talking from experience on my own son a 2019 that has plus EV 90mph from both sides of the plate, not bragging ,but we worked very hard to get to this point, his violent swings have always been there since he was 4 yrs old that might sound funny, but people would laugh when he swung so hard off a tee and fall down or drop to a knee when he swung and always people told him to slow down, and I would say no swing harder, just like now he throws plus 80mph from the crouch and upper 80s on the mound and plus 90 from the OF, coaches use to tell him to slow down ,I said don't tell him to slow down I want him to hit the backstop. everyone always knew what was right for my son, yeah right ! now when he swings in games and BP his swings look faster than off a tee.
now does he have talent ? yes but most of all he has the will and MINDSET to succeed in life. now we don't practice to get good readings off a tee, I don't really care, i don't need a radar to know that sound off the bat. He swings the same now as when he was 4, just tweaked along the way, he has heard -kid you swing like someone stole your lunch money, Kid you swing like your mad, kid you swing to do damage every time, he laughs and tells me why wouldn't you want to smash the ball every time. very blessed and humble kid -and now he's getting some well deserved attention , keep swinging !!
I was a event last year and the main guy from the Bandito's when up and was a guest speaker, what I remember him saying was "if you hit, you don't sit! and that's very true.
Bat speed and exit velocity off a Tee "can" tell you something about a hitter. By itself, it doesn't tell you the most important thing... Can he hit??? Does that 90+ exit velocity swing off a tee work against live pitching? So high exit velo off the tee might interest scouts and college coaches, it takes more than just interest in most cases.
Most important is exit velocity in games and against good pitching.
Quick story...
Years ago a scouting friend of mine found and bought a system that would record bat speed. He did many clinics and would always use the equipment to record bat speed. At one clinic a HS junior from my hometown recorded the fastest bat speed the scout had ever seen. I knew the player and he had never hit a home run and was a much better fielder than he was a hitter. My friend asked the kid... "Son I have been compiling these bat speeds for a couple years now and you have recorded the top bat speed I have seen" realizing the young man was not big and strong he asked... "How did you do that?"
The kid said... When those machines first came out my dad bought me one and I've practiced a lot trying to get the most bat speed. I swing all together differently when I'm not using it.
Bottomline... Any and all information is important. But I think people are going way overboard on peak exit velocity. Now if you had average in game exit velocity over a period of time, that would be extremely important info. An exit velocity reading for every at bat. Then you might see the 100 mph peak exit velocity never showed up in a game and that hitters average was 60 mph. Another hitter with 90 mph peak had an average of 79 mph. Really not much doubt who the better hitter is.
To answer the question... Would a school take a flyer on someone with 100 mph exit velocity off a tee? It's possible, but most good programs will want to see much more than that. It's not the same as taking a flyer on a 90+ pitcher. We know that a 90+ pitcher can "throw". We don't know if the high exit off a tee player can "hit". From a pure tools standpoint before looking at sub category tools... RUN, THROW, FIELD, HIT, POWER you have a pitcher that can throw and you have a hitter who might not be able to hit or hit with power.
The guys that can hit golf balls the farthest aren't always the best golfers. The slo-pitch softball players that can hit softballs out of MLB stadiums aren't playing professional baseball.
Power only plays if someone can hit. But if someone shows enough raw power, it might be worth trying to develop into at least a good enough hitter that the power is useful. Now if you have a 100mph exit velocity combined with a player that can hit... Everyone will want you!
Hope you don't mind another question on this thread.
My son is going to a PBR event in June. Does anyone know if the kids use their own bats? Can they adjust the tee? He really never hits off a tee so he wants to do some prep beforehand.
We did one session and he averaged about 87 using Pocket Radar Ball Coach. is that a reliable indicator?
Thanks.
If exit velocity is measured off of live pitching, would not the pitcher's velocity be a factor? Therefore will exit velocity off a 90 mph fastball be higher (on average) than a 70 mph curve ball?
howdybaseball posted:If exit velocity is measured off of live pitching, would not the pitcher's velocity be a factor? Therefore will exit velocity off a 90 mph fastball be higher (on average) than a 70 mph curve ball?
Yes and yes. Just like if you were throwing the ball against a concrete wall. Higher velocity throw means higher velocity coming off the wall.
K9 posted:Hope you don't mind another question on this thread.
My son is going to a PBR event in June. Does anyone know if the kids use their own bats? Can they adjust the tee? He really never hits off a tee so he wants to do some prep beforehand.
We did one session and he averaged about 87 using Pocket Radar Ball Coach. is that a reliable indicator?
Thanks.
Ball coach should be pretty close. If anything may be a tad low so that is good news for you. And PBR does allow you to use your own bat. If he is high school he will have to use bbcor or wood. If he is 14u and under he can use 1.15 I believe. They should change that but whatever.
I apologize ahead of time if it was already mentioned and I missed it but can someone advise how many swings a player gets in a PBR or PG showcase event when measuring exit velo?
4arms posted:I apologize ahead of time if it was already mentioned and I missed it but can someone advise how many swings a player gets in a PBR or PG showcase event when measuring exit velo?
PBR was five swings off tee. I think that PG was 5 off of the tee, and either 5 or 10 when they did the advanced swing metrics.
Thank you K9
Hello, first time poster. Does PBR take the high value exit velocity of the five swings, an average of all five swings, or an average of some subset of the five swings? I have learned a lot here and will continue to read these amazing threads.
Thank you in advance,
KYDAD2023
KYDAD2023 posted:Hello, first time poster. Does PBR take the high value exit velocity of the five swings, an average of all five swings, or an average of some subset of the five swings? I have learned a lot here and will continue to read these amazing threads.
Thank you in advance,
KYDAD2023
High of the five is the number you see....
MNbaseballguy:
Thank you, and that makes sense as the max fastball is listed that way (but a range is listed as well for fastball velocity). I do find it odd that 14U can use 1.15, but I suppose as long as the coaches who subscribe to the site know that, they should be able to estimate a BBCOR exit velocity for comparison to the 15U and older prospects.