Thx Root...we spent about a week off the tee prior to the showcase. I dont know if we'll do another showcase where there is no live hitting on a field. They were in very small cages...thete was a tee cage for exit velo....soft toss for form and live coach throwing to video from. 

Adding to what root says we do five swing bursts. I tell him there is no way we are wasting money on a showcase til I can be convinced he bare minimum hits 90. That means a five pitch grouping rarely goes by without at least one 90. Currently he is topping 88 so not even there yet. 85 is the highest number he can be sure of hitting in any grouping of five. If and when that 85 becomes 90 we will have a decision to make. But I also feel your pain. We were at a college camp and they told him his EV was 67. Now there is no possible way that could be accurate. We weren't going to dispute it since it made no difference really. But if it were a showcase I probably would. They had to get two kids mixed up or something. At tryouts when he was 12 he was gunned at 73 with bbcor by the organization head with a stalker. 80 the following year by same guy. Then he went to this camp. No way possible he could have been 67. It was college kids doing the gun and they were literally like 3 feet from him. I don't think the gun could react correctly. So mistakes do in fact happen. 

my humble opinion is that there's as much consistency in exit velocities as there is in 60 yard dashes- which is to say not much, and probably less.    Just as I've seen 60s run in all conditions- electronic, hand timed, long grass, short grass, with  the wind, against the wind-   I've seen exit velos taken off the tee, using short toss, using standard bp, etc etc.    Even seen the velos transcribed wrong -     bottom line is that I wouldn't get too wrapped up in it, especially at a young age.    Most of these kids will be seen enough that they'll figure out if they have enough pop in their bat, if they are fast enough, and if they have a strong enough arm.  Just keep working and use the measurable as motivation to improve.  

2020Dad,

Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity.  Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.  

We tend to get a higher level player at our events.  The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.

Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph.  Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities.  But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.

PGStaff posted:

2020Dad,

Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity.  Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.  

We tend to get a higher level player at our events.  The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.

Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph.  Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities.  But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.

Do you have an average exit velo for live at-bats for 2020's?

The only average exit velocities we can record from live ABs is in our national indoor hitting league.  

We do record live ABs when they stand out in games.  Actually TrackMan does that.  And when we use TrackMan all the data gets entered, so I guess we could find a TM exit velocity average, but it would only include those that hit when TM was being used, so not really a true average.

To me "average" exit velocity against pitching, not off a tee, is a very important number.  Not only shows peak velocity, but average shows consistency of squaring up pitches.  Obviously the biggest problem with average exit velocity is the quality of pitching.  But in cases like the indoor hitting league where all the pitching machines are set at equal velocity... You could make an argument that the very best hitter would have the highest "average" exit velo, no matter what the other statistics said. Without knowing for sure, I would bet the top hitters in MLB would also have the top "average" exit velocity over the whole season.

Still that doesn't account for the most important things of all...  Being able to hit high level pitching, breaking balls, etc.  But that player that had the highest average exit velocity, would be someone scouts should want to see ASAP against good pitching.

PGStaff posted:

The only average exit velocities we can record from live ABs is in our national indoor hitting league.  

We do record live ABs when they stand out in games.  Actually TrackMan does that.  And when we use TrackMan all the data gets entered, so I guess we could find a TM exit velocity average, but it would only include those that hit when TM was being used, so not really a true average.

To me "average" exit velocity against pitching, not off a tee, is a very important number.  Not only shows peak velocity, but average shows consistency of squaring up pitches.  Obviously the biggest problem with average exit velocity is the quality of pitching.  But in cases like the indoor hitting league where all the pitching machines are set at equal velocity... You could make an argument that the very best hitter would have the highest "average" exit velo, no matter what the other statistics said. Without knowing for sure, I would bet the top hitters in MLB would also have the top "average" exit velocity over the whole season.

Still that doesn't account for the most important things of all...  Being able to hit high level pitching, breaking balls, etc.  But that player that had the highest average exit velocity, would be someone scouts should want to see ASAP against good pitching.

Thanks! 

Good info.

I've found that slow front toss my son's exit velo was mid to high 80s. But off a tee it is high 70s to 80. He's a line drive hitter. His very old friend who looks to be going to D2, I swear, visually has a big, slow-looking, looping swing. But he can hit low 90s off a tee. He can hit some deep shots, but those seem to be rarer than line drives. But he's 6'2" and my son is 5'10" so D3 was the best my son could aspire to (and he's going to go to Virginia Tech and try to play club so all is very good). I guess the eye test can be wrong and that's why we have machines...

Excuse me if I  ruffle some feathers , but the size of a kid doesn't always equal power! My 2019 exit velo is 93 righty he's 5'9 170lbs -lefty is 90mph but all his swings look faster live . Than off a tee.  They told him he's looks to do  damage and every swing . 

2018 his team mate 6'5 250 pounds lefty -88mph 

 

ive seen so many cant miss guys, miss !

exit speed is huge in our household , but it's not the end all . I've seen bigger kids get high exit in BP , but anyone can hit BP .

my 2019 did hit 89.6 off TrackMan at Lakepoint off the top of the fence when he was 140lbs in July   and the kid was throwing 75mph , so I have no idea what that means . My advice is swing as hard as you can but make sure you hit ,lol and get in the weight room ..

PBR loves to highlight the big exit velos and many times its misleading into their overall assessment of the player. I know many who practice and mastered the techniques to use for putting up the big numbers. Their swing isn't even close to resembling the same during their BP or in a game. Similar with OF velo. Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed.  Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.

c2019 posted:

Excuse me if I  ruffle some feathers , but the size of a kid doesn't always equal power! My 2019 exit velo is 93 righty he's 5'9 170lbs -lefty is 90mph but all his swings look faster live . Than off a tee.  They told him he's looks to do  damage and every swing . 

2018 his team mate 6'5 250 pounds lefty -88mph 

 

ive seen so many cant miss guys, miss !

exit speed is huge in our household , but it's not the end all . I've seen bigger kids get high exit in BP , but anyone can hit BP .

my 2019 did hit 89.6 off TrackMan at Lakepoint off the top of the fence when he was 140lbs in July   and the kid was throwing 75mph , so I have no idea what that means . My advice is swing as hard as you can but make sure you hit ,lol and get in the weight room ..

If that was even somewhat directed at me, I'd say sure I agree with you. Our local "player makes it big" is Joe Rizzo and he's maybe my son's height but his swing is amazing and he simply crushes balls. He's also really built.

My son is 5'10" and 175 and he's pretty ripped. He also runs a 6.95 60. But as a catcher, his pop-times were consistently 2 to 2.1 combined with his size and his exit velo, was simply not getting more than D3 looks. That's fine. Looking forward to final season of HS ball. Good luck you your 2019.

Batty67 posted:
c2019 posted:

Excuse me if I  ruffle some feathers , but the size of a kid doesn't always equal power! My 2019 exit velo is 93 righty he's 5'9 170lbs -lefty is 90mph but all his swings look faster live . Than off a tee.  They told him he's looks to do  damage and every swing . 

2018 his team mate 6'5 250 pounds lefty -88mph 

 

ive seen so many cant miss guys, miss !

exit speed is huge in our household , but it's not the end all . I've seen bigger kids get high exit in BP , but anyone can hit BP .

my 2019 did hit 89.6 off TrackMan at Lakepoint off the top of the fence when he was 140lbs in July   and the kid was throwing 75mph , so I have no idea what that means . My advice is swing as hard as you can but make sure you hit ,lol and get in the weight room ..

If that was even somewhat directed at me, I'd say sure I agree with you. Our local "player makes it big" is Joe Rizzo and he's maybe my son's height but his swing is amazing and he simply crushes balls. He's also really built.

My son is 5'10" and 175 and he's pretty ripped. He also runs a 6.95 60. But as a catcher, his pop-times were consistently 2 to 2.1 combined with his size and his exit velo, was simply not getting more than D3 looks. That's fine. Looking forward to final season of HS ball. Good luck you your 2019.

Batty -no it wasn't . I just keep getting alerts from this post . Don't mind my 1.5 cents,  I don't much, just passion kicks in ��

wsoxfanatic posted:

Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed.  Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.

Explain a little further.

roothog66 posted:
wsoxfanatic posted:

Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed.  Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.

Explain a little further.

Is this about pop-times for catchers? I've heard that on artificial turf, or an extremely well-kept grass IF, a one-hopper right on target does not lose much velocity or accuracy. But I'd be skeptical as an approach...

PGStaff posted:

2020Dad,

Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity.  Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.  

We tend to get a higher level player at our events.  The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.

Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph.  Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities.  But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.

Interesting, were those middle Infielders mostly?  My son I think is shooting for the dubious distinction of being the only 100mph+ guy to not be recruited!  Keep hoping his growth stops and his balance improves...  maybe this will be the year. Or maybe he will continue to be a so so hitter with a ton of 'potential'.  So PG if you're still checking this thread a question for you. In your experience I am sure you see 90+ pitchers who are wild with poor secondary pitches picked up by someone believing they can develop them. Do you see the same with hitters?  So in other words will a school take a flyer on a kid with a 100mph EV?

Batty67 posted:
roothog66 posted:
wsoxfanatic posted:

Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed.  Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.

Explain a little further.

Is this about pop-times for catchers? I've heard that on artificial turf, or an extremely well-kept grass IF, a one-hopper right on target does not lose much velocity or accuracy. But I'd be skeptical as an approach...

Sort of an old wives tale, like the old idea that an infielder skipping it on the turf on a throw to first allows the ball to pick up speed. That idea is actually impossible by the laws of physics. What happens is basically a visual trick. Your eye, following the ball expects it to slow more than it does and it simply appears to pick up speed. In reality, you lose velocity this way. No amount of spin or skip can overcome the physics involved with a moving body experiencing resistance. 

c2019 posted:

Excuse me if I  ruffle some feathers , but the size of a kid doesn't always equal power! My 2019 exit velo is 93 righty he's 5'9 170lbs -lefty is 90mph but all his swings look faster live . Than off a tee.  They told him he's looks to do  damage and every swing . 

2018 his team mate 6'5 250 pounds lefty -88mph 

 

ive seen so many cant miss guys, miss !

exit speed is huge in our household , but it's not the end all . I've seen bigger kids get high exit in BP , but anyone can hit BP .

my 2019 did hit 89.6 off TrackMan at Lakepoint off the top of the fence when he was 140lbs in July   and the kid was throwing 75mph , so I have no idea what that means . My advice is swing as hard as you can but make sure you hit ,lol and get in the weight room ..

My kid is a big kid and you certainly aren't ruffling my feathers. I agree 100% with you. It's about strength not size. 

roothog66 posted:
Batty67 posted:
roothog66 posted:
wsoxfanatic posted:

Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed.  Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.

Explain a little further.

Is this about pop-times for catchers? I've heard that on artificial turf, or an extremely well-kept grass IF, a one-hopper right on target does not lose much velocity or accuracy. But I'd be skeptical as an approach...

Sort of an old wives tale, like the old idea that an infielder skipping it on the turf on a throw to first allows the ball to pick up speed. That idea is actually impossible by the laws of physics. What happens is basically a visual trick. Your eye, following the ball expects it to slow more than it does and it simply appears to pick up speed. In reality, you lose velocity this way. No amount of spin or skip can overcome the physics involved with a moving body experiencing resistance. 

I agree. But in general, a HC would rather see a rocket one-hopper right on target compared to a poorly located bullet throw in the air.

wsoxfanatic posted:

PBR loves to highlight the big exit velos and many times its misleading into their overall assessment of the player. I know many who practice and mastered the techniques to use for putting up the big numbers. Their swing isn't even close to resembling the same during their BP or in a game. Similar with OF velo. Throwing the ball on a downward plane, and skipping to the target can get you increased speed.  Some are very good at being "showcase players" but don't necessarily bring the same skills to the field.

I think you can manipulate the numbers a little but not that much. Maybe you can pick up a few mph but not much more. 

wsoxfanatic posted:

Sorry, no didn't mean the skipping gets you increased mph, but the technique of throwing downward to the target vs carrying results in a faster throw. Skipping can shorten the route so to speak.

I was speaking more about exit velo.  I don't think it is quite that easy to 'swing out of your shoes' and gain significant exit velocity. 

2020dad posted:
PGStaff posted:

2020Dad,

Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity.  Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.  

We tend to get a higher level player at our events.  The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.

Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph.  Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities.  But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.

Interesting, were those middle Infielders mostly?  My son I think is shooting for the dubious distinction of being the only 100mph+ guy to not be recruited!  Keep hoping his growth stops and his balance improves...  maybe this will be the year. Or maybe he will continue to be a so so hitter with a ton of 'potential'.  So PG if you're still checking this thread a question for you. In your experience I am sure you see 90+ pitchers who are wild with poor secondary pitches picked up by someone believing they can develop them. Do you see the same with hitters?  So in other words will a school take a flyer on a kid with a 100mph EV?

I don't think that any guy with a 100 ev would not get recruited. Ev probably gets a little overrated by some and hit tool, defense and for some positions even speed might come before ev but a 100  mph guy is so athletic that he probably excells at the other stuff too. 

And regarding using a big windup and long swing: that might add 3 to 4 mph but you dont hit well over 90 with any swing if you are not athletic. Exit velocity is a measure of raw athleticism and not skill.

And if you hit 100 you probably get recruited even without good other tools since that points to huge power. A scout might prefer 86 mph  ev with good defense and hit tool over 91 without but at 100 the raw power is so great that many might take a chance even if the other skills are not there yet, just like a guy that throws 95 will get many chances to prove he can't pitch.

In the end exit velo is just one tool (raw power) but it is somewhat a good indicator not just because it shows power but also because it correlates with other athletic tools like throwing velo in many cases (although not in all cases, for example I have hit upper 80s exit velo with the bat but only like mid 60s with the arm, I just can't throw).

100 Exit velo will get you recruited, a 2017 on my sons team proved this to me. He is big kid 6'3" with 98-100 exit velo. got recruited by an amazing amount of schools...stunned every one. The boy can't hit, he doesn't square up balls, he isn't athletic...just take the under on AB's, playing time, and any other stat you can imagine. he will be a 1 and done, and it is shame because he his a damn nice kid who has stars in his eyes.

Recruiting isn't anywhere close to a science that has been proven to me for sure.

Dominik85 posted:
2020dad posted:
PGStaff posted:

2020Dad,

Just so you know... There are first round picks every year that we have recorded below 90mph exit velocity.  Two of our top 5 ranked position players have recorded below 90 max exit velocity.  

We tend to get a higher level player at our events.  The average exit velocity we have recorded for the 2017 class is right between 80-81 mph.

Only bringing this up because it appears your son is already way above average. In fact, the average for 2020 class is 75 mph.  Obviously baseball scholarships and draft positions are determined by much more than bat speed and exit velocities.  But anywhere around 90 mph is good enough for just about anything to happen, depending on what else is there.

Interesting, were those middle Infielders mostly?  My son I think is shooting for the dubious distinction of being the only 100mph+ guy to not be recruited!  Keep hoping his growth stops and his balance improves...  maybe this will be the year. Or maybe he will continue to be a so so hitter with a ton of 'potential'.  So PG if you're still checking this thread a question for you. In your experience I am sure you see 90+ pitchers who are wild with poor secondary pitches picked up by someone believing they can develop them. Do you see the same with hitters?  So in other words will a school take a flyer on a kid with a 100mph EV?

I don't think that any guy with a 100 ev would not get recruited. Ev probably gets a little overrated by some and hit tool, defense and for some positions even speed might come before ev but a 100  mph guy is so athletic that he probably excells at the other stuff too. 

And regarding using a big windup and long swing: that might add 3 to 4 mph but you dont hit well over 90 with any swing if you are not athletic. Exit velocity is a measure of raw athleticism and not skill.

And if you hit 100 you probably get recruited even without good other tools since that points to huge power. A scout might prefer 86 mph  ev with good defense and hit tool over 91 without but at 100 the raw power is so great that many might take a chance even if the other skills are not there yet, just like a guy that throws 95 will get many chances to prove he can't pitch.

In the end exit velo is just one tool (raw power) but it is somewhat a good indicator not just because it shows power but also because it correlates with other athletic tools like throwing velo in many cases (although not in all cases, for example I have hit upper 80s exit velo with the bat but only like mid 60s with the arm, I just can't throw).

DOM -this is good info , I know not everyone sees it the same way, but Tools is what they look for, College ready or Pro ready in some cases, now im just talking from experience on my own son a 2019 that has plus EV 90mph from both sides of the plate, not bragging ,but we worked very hard to get to this point, his violent  swings have always been there since he was 4 yrs old that might sound funny, but people would laugh when he swung so hard off a tee and fall down  or drop to  a knee when he swung and always people told him to slow down, and I would say no swing harder, just like now he throws plus 80mph from the crouch and  upper 80s on the mound and plus 90 from the OF, coaches use to tell him to slow down ,I said don't tell him to slow down I want him to hit the backstop. everyone always knew what was right for my son, yeah right !  now when he swings in games and BP his swings look faster than off a tee.

now does he have talent ? yes but most of all he has the will and MINDSET to succeed in life. now we don't practice to get good readings off a tee, I don't really care, i don't need a radar to know that sound off the bat. He swings the same now as when  he was 4, just tweaked along the way, he has heard -kid you swing like someone stole your lunch money, Kid you swing like your mad, kid you swing to do damage every time, he laughs and tells me why wouldn't you want to smash the ball every time. very blessed and humble kid -and now he's getting some well deserved attention , keep swinging !!

I was a event last year and the main guy from the Bandito's when up and was a guest speaker, what I remember him saying was "if you hit, you don't sit! and that's very true.  

 

Bat speed and exit velocity off a Tee "can" tell you something about a hitter.  By itself, it doesn't tell you the most important thing... Can he hit??? Does that 90+ exit velocity swing off a tee work against live pitching?   So high exit velo off the tee might interest scouts and college coaches, it takes more than just interest in most cases.

Most important is exit velocity in games and against good pitching.

Quick story...

Years ago a scouting friend of mine found and bought a system that would record bat speed.  He did many clinics and would always use the equipment to record bat speed.  At one clinic a HS junior from my hometown recorded the fastest bat speed the scout had ever seen.  I knew the player and he had never hit a home run and was a much better fielder than he was a hitter.  My friend asked the kid... "Son I have been compiling these bat speeds for a couple years now and you have recorded the top bat speed I have seen"  realizing the young man was not big and strong he asked... "How did you do that?"

The kid said... When those machines first came out my dad bought me one and I've practiced a lot trying to get the most bat speed.  I swing all together differently when I'm not using it.

Bottomline... Any and all information is important.  But I think people are going way overboard on peak exit velocity.  Now if you had average in game exit velocity over a period of time, that would be extremely important info.  An exit velocity reading for every at bat.  Then you might see the 100 mph peak exit velocity never showed up in a game and that hitters average was 60 mph.  Another hitter with 90 mph peak had an average of 79 mph.  Really not much doubt who the better hitter is.

To answer the question... Would a school take a flyer on someone with 100 mph exit velocity off a tee?  It's possible, but most good programs will want to see much more than that.  It's not the same as taking a flyer on a 90+ pitcher.  We know that a 90+ pitcher can "throw".  We don't know if the high exit off a tee player can "hit".  From a pure tools standpoint before looking at sub category tools... RUN, THROW, FIELD, HIT, POWER you have a pitcher that can throw and you have a hitter who might not be able to hit or hit with power.

The guys that can hit golf balls the farthest aren't always the best golfers.  The slo-pitch softball players that can hit softballs out of MLB stadiums aren't playing professional baseball.

Power only plays if someone can hit.  But if someone shows enough raw power, it might be worth trying to develop into at least a good enough hitter that the power is useful.  Now if you have a 100mph exit velocity combined with a player that can hit... Everyone will want you!

Hope you don't mind another question on this thread.

My son is going to a PBR event in June.  Does anyone know if the kids use their own bats?  Can they adjust the tee?  He really never hits off a tee so he wants to do some prep beforehand.

We did one session and he averaged about 87 using Pocket Radar Ball Coach.  is that a reliable indicator?

Thanks.

howdybaseball posted:

If exit velocity is measured off of live pitching, would not the pitcher's velocity be a factor? Therefore will exit velocity off a 90 mph fastball be higher (on average) than a 70 mph curve ball?

Yes and yes. Just like if you were throwing the ball against a concrete wall. Higher velocity throw means higher velocity coming off the wall. 

K9 posted:

Hope you don't mind another question on this thread.

My son is going to a PBR event in June.  Does anyone know if the kids use their own bats?  Can they adjust the tee?  He really never hits off a tee so he wants to do some prep beforehand.

We did one session and he averaged about 87 using Pocket Radar Ball Coach.  is that a reliable indicator?

Thanks.

Ball coach should be pretty close.  If anything may be a tad low so that is good news for you. And PBR does allow you to use your own bat.  If he is high school he will have to use bbcor or wood. If he is 14u and under he can use 1.15 I believe. They should change that but whatever. 

4arms posted:

I apologize ahead of time if it was already mentioned and I missed it but can someone advise how many swings a player gets in a PBR or PG showcase event when measuring exit velo?   

PBR was five swings off tee.  I think that PG was 5 off of the tee, and either 5 or 10 when they did the advanced swing metrics.

Hello, first time poster.  Does PBR take the high value exit velocity of the five swings, an average of all five swings, or an average of some subset of the five swings?  I have learned a lot here and will continue to read these amazing threads.

Thank you in advance,

KYDAD2023

KYDAD2023 posted:

Hello, first time poster.  Does PBR take the high value exit velocity of the five swings, an average of all five swings, or an average of some subset of the five swings?  I have learned a lot here and will continue to read these amazing threads.

Thank you in advance,

KYDAD2023

High of the five is the number you see....

MNbaseballguy:

Thank you, and that makes sense as the max fastball is listed that way (but a range is listed as well for fastball velocity).  I do find it odd that 14U can use 1.15, but I suppose as long as the coaches who subscribe to the site know that, they should be able to estimate a BBCOR exit velocity for comparison to the 15U and older prospects.

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