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Background:

Son is 2019 RHP. Velo - 84-86 last year hoping for a little bump up this year???

breaking ball spin rate 90th percentile per track man. 

Fatball spin rate 35th percentile. 

When I watch him pitch, these numbers appear to hold true. Lots of break on breaking ball and gets more ground balls than fly balls. So I assume he is getting more of a "heavy fastball". 

When looking at spin rate on his fast ball. I would assume that to be "top level". It needs to be in the top 80th percentile or the  bottom 20th percentile. 

Given his current numbers, it seems that it would be easier to try to lower the spin rate 15percent vs trying to raise it 45 percent.???

i read an article that suggested to lower spin rate you may be able to simply move the fingers off of the seams.  I don't want to mess  with his control and I dont have any way of knowing if this was reducing spin rate or not until he pitched using track man again. 

Any thoughts???

is there anywhere in Georgia that has a rental facilty that has track man or similar system available??

i am really intrigued with  spin rate, if anyone knows of other good articles. 

Thanks

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wareagle posted:

Background:

Son is 2019 RHP. Velo - 84-86 last year hoping for a little bump up this year???

breaking ball spin rate 90th percentile per track man. 

Fatball spin rate 35th percentile. 

When I watch him pitch, these numbers appear to hold true. Lots of break on breaking ball and gets more ground balls than fly balls. So I assume he is getting more of a "heavy fastball". 

When looking at spin rate on his fast ball. I would assume that to be "top level". It needs to be in the top 80th percentile or the  bottom 20th percentile. 

Given his current numbers, it seems that it would be easier to try to lower the spin rate 15percent vs trying to raise it 45 percent.???

i read an article that suggested to lower spin rate you may be able to simply move the fingers off of the seams.  I don't want to mess  with his control and I dont have any way of knowing if this was reducing spin rate or not until he pitched using track man again. 

Any thoughts???

is there anywhere in Georgia that has a rental facilty that has track man or similar system available??

i am really intrigued with  spin rate, if anyone knows of other good articles. 

Thanks

I believe that a Georgia version of the Baseball Ranch will be opening soon in the Roswell area. Let me get the number and PM it to you. 

HShuler-thanks. Please do

He has a change up. When it good it's really good. When it's not, it's really not.  Still working on consistency.  His HS coaches are just starting to look at a cutter. They say it looks promising. We will see?

i really don't expect that anyone woul ask what his spin rate is. But from what I am reading, it can affect results. And coaches do see that.  I am not completely sold, and I am not ready to attempt major mechanical changes to try to improve spin rate. But if something as simply as changing the fastball grip could add a little more drop, then I would certainly be willing to have him try. I was curious if anyone had tried this with good or bad results.   

Thanks for the responses so far!

I knew this thread was coming soon enough!!

You're right, spin ultimately has relevance.  But your son is a sophomore in HS with plenty of velocity for his age/grade.  Focus on learning how to throw 3 pitches for strikes - he!!, even 2 for strikes would be '90th percentile!'

Colleges benches are full of over-tinkered-with hitters and pitchers.

Try to relax and have some fun for the next 3 years.

Last edited by justbaseball

Have you read through the Driveline stuff on spin rate?  Interesting stuff.

The focus on spin rates is so new, and the technology is still really in it's infancy.  I think over the next few years we are going to learn a lot.

As Driveline mentions though, it's not just about the raw spin rate - but how effective that spin is.  As you noted, sometimes a lower spin rate can get the pitcher the desired result as well.

The problem is of course as they mention..." But there is a lot we don’t know. We don’t know how to increase a pitcher’s spin rate. We don’t know what factors change spin rate (besides splitters), be it grip, limb length, hand size, mechanics, etc."

In your case, I don't see that there is any harm in varying the grip and seeing what happens.  You may not be able to get a measurement of the spin, but you can see the movement.  If it gets the movement you seek, well - it's the right spin rate for you guys regardless of what a reading might say.

You would think moving off the seams would decrease friction and therefore spin rate, but at the same time it could change the angle of the spin and render it less effective.  I don't think there is any way to really predict what will happen.  You just have to go out there and try it.

roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

C'mon, you just tell the kid to throw strikes.

Works every time.

Rob T posted:
roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

C'mon, you just tell the kid to throw strikes.

Works every time.

My wife seems to think so.

roothog66 posted:
Rob T posted:
roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

C'mon, you just tell the kid to throw strikes.

Works every time.

My wife seems to think so.

Thought cloud - "Mom, what the heck do you think I was trying to do?"

hshuler posted:
roothog66 posted:
Rob T posted:
roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

C'mon, you just tell the kid to throw strikes.

Works every time.

My wife seems to think so.

Thought cloud - "Mom, what the heck do you think I was trying to do?"

Hah! My kid hooked up early in the fall with a pretty well known team for a showcase. He started the game by walking the first two batters and the coach yells out at him, "You're overthrowing! Slow it down and just throw strikes." I'm thinking, "Coach, do you not see those 25 guys standing behind the backstop with radar guns? Those guns aren't for measuring accuracy."

"Coach, do you not see those 25 guys standing behind the backstop with radar guns? Those guns aren't for measuring accuracy."  

That has to win the award for most true and funny at the same time!  On my son's team the guy throwing gas (but not the most accurate) verbally committs this year. The most accurate pitcher gets selected for All Tourney All American.  

hshuler posted:

WarEagle - Pitchers experiment with different grips and ways to create movement all the time. 

I don't think there are drills that he can do to improve spin rate but he can work to create more movement. 

I am sending contact through PM now. 

Agree with Shu on this. Experiment. I know college camps are mostly about making money and recruiting but I will say as I have said before South Carolina does a nice job of giving quality instruction as well. And my son and I both agree that the breakout on grips at their pitching camp was 100% worth the cost of the camp. They went over a number of grips and the purpose behind them. But their strongest message was to experiment. That no two deliveries are exactly alike and different grips work for different guys. Don't get out in the cookie cutter. My son had the hardest time finding a change up grip. He took this advice to heart and messed with every stupid way of gripping the change he could think of. Finally he found one that has been nothing short of dominant for him. ~10mph difference and drops off the table to the point it almost resembles a splitter or true 12/6 curve. He has 4 different two seemers he throws. One of them with high speed camera we estimates to be around 1000rpm (insanely low). Easily gets the highest ground ball percentage on his team. It's not as sexy as 2900rpm and striking everybody out but he goes deep into games. 

My one question on dropping rpm - cause I agree easier to manipulate for low rpm than high - is will the scouts pay attention to this over the next few years. The technology is there and it is real. But baseball coaches have sometimes been slow to accept data. Favoring the 90mph guy with 2200 spin rate who will get rocked rather than the 85mph 1300 spin rate guy who will induce one ground ball after another. 

Some will say there is no snap of the wrist in a pitch. And if you think about it like holding your arm still and flicking your wrist I agree. But watch very carefully super slow motion and the wrist does aid in the pitch. I would  assume long fingers are an important factor for high rpm. But since there is little we can do about that stronger wrist and fingers are second best thing. The more that wrist can travel throughout the course of the pitch the more backspin. But your wrist and fingers will need a lot of strength to outrun the speed of your arm.  Tensile strength is another measurement that is becoming big. 

Sorry for the long post. Hope it is helpful!

We have Trackman and Rapsodo in our facility to measure spin rate and directionality. There's a lot more to spin rate than just the gross number. It's a fairly complicated topic and as people have noted, I've written a lot about it on my blog.

I'll tell you a good way to manipulate spin rate: Pine tar or firm grip. Give it a shot and measure it. Then report back

roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

Great question root. And great discussion here. Root I have always been of the mind that the same thing that increases velocity also increases command/control. Smooth and repeatable mechanics. I realize command connotes something a little different than control but I think it all comes down to repeatable mechanics and reps. Just don't think there is any shortcutting that. But if you find the way let me know!!

As for a couple comments that scouts aren't looking at spin rate. I don't think that is true. Some are. But as I mentioned I am concerned about how many. There is no doubt in my mind spin rate/effective spin rate will have an equal seat at the table just don't know how soon. The smart programs will be first in line. 

Kyle Boddy posted:

We have Trackman and Rapsodo in our facility to measure spin rate and directionality. There's a lot more to spin rate than just the gross number. It's a fairly complicated topic and as people have noted, I've written a lot about it on my blog.

I'll tell you a good way to manipulate spin rate: Pine tar or firm grip. Give it a shot and measure it. Then report back

Kyle, remember we had this conversation about a year ago. Thought of some ways to reduce spin rate but increasing it - a lot tougher. Have you guys come up with anything since then?

Kyle Boddy posted:

We have Trackman and Rapsodo in our facility to measure spin rate and directionality. There's a lot more to spin rate than just the gross number. It's a fairly complicated topic and as people have noted, I've written a lot about it on my blog.

I'll tell you a good way to manipulate spin rate: Pine tar or firm grip. Give it a shot and measure it. Then report back

Have you made a correlation study with finger length? Also the layback angle of the wrist/fingers compared to the forearm maybe? Or maybe how close you grip the ball toward the fingertips?

 

Obviously finger tip speed would have an influence but that is basically just arm speed, right?

Dominik85 posted:
Kyle Boddy posted:

We have Trackman and Rapsodo in our facility to measure spin rate and directionality. There's a lot more to spin rate than just the gross number. It's a fairly complicated topic and as people have noted, I've written a lot about it on my blog.

I'll tell you a good way to manipulate spin rate: Pine tar or firm grip. Give it a shot and measure it. Then report back

Have you made a correlation study with finger length? Also the layback angle of the wrist/fingers compared to the forearm maybe? Or maybe how close you grip the ball toward the fingertips?

 

Obviously finger tip speed would have an influence but that is basically just arm speed, right?

I would think fingertip speed that outruns arm speed would be a multiplier of velocity and a big boost to rpm. The question is how do you coach to that?  Is it just strength as I kind of intuitively figure?  Is it as you mention intentionally laying the wrist back as much as possible as the forearm starts its forward momentum?  That's seems intuitive to me. That's why I think strength there is important. Clearly we could have huge rpms if we just flicked the ball off fingers but of course no velocity. Trick is how can we get arm moving violently forward and still 'flick' the ball off our fingers as much as possible. Then is it possible to throw a two seemer or change without the flick?

to your pint though the fingertips begin behind the forearm and at release are in line with or ahead of forearm. So there is some degree of wrist snap though I know some on here don't like that thought. 

2020dad posted:

As for a couple comments that scouts aren't looking at spin rate. I don't think that is true. Some are. But as I mentioned I am concerned about how many. There is no doubt in my mind spin rate/effective spin rate will have an equal seat at the table just don't know how soon. The smart programs will be first in line. 

Area scouts aren't looking at spin rate, but they're reporting it to the front office - and they care very much. I've done draft work for a handful of teams and they all note it. I also receive phone calls and emails right around the draft on my draft-eligible trainees about Trackman data. 

2020dad posted:
Kyle Boddy posted:

We have Trackman and Rapsodo in our facility to measure spin rate and directionality. There's a lot more to spin rate than just the gross number. It's a fairly complicated topic and as people have noted, I've written a lot about it on my blog.

I'll tell you a good way to manipulate spin rate: Pine tar or firm grip. Give it a shot and measure it. Then report back

Kyle, remember we had this conversation about a year ago. Thought of some ways to reduce spin rate but increasing it - a lot tougher. Have you guys come up with anything since then?

Yes. It's somewhat complicated and not conclusive yet. Continuing to test things this off-season since we have a ton of pros in here.

Anyone who says they have the answer is definitely lying. Or way smarter than me. Which is totally possible.

Dominik85 posted:

Have you made a correlation study with finger length? Also the layback angle of the wrist/fingers compared to the forearm maybe? Or maybe how close you grip the ball toward the fingertips?

 

Obviously finger tip speed would have an influence but that is basically just arm speed, right?

No anatomical measurements across 100+ very good college pitchers (and some pros rehabbing) showed any correlation with spin rate in either direction.

"Layback angle" is a theory being tested now. Some good initial data on laxity seems to point in a decent enough direction that it's worth spending time on it.

Finger tip speed is closely related to arm speed but not the same. Not everyone with the same "arm speed" components (IR velocity and EE velocity, let's say) have the same resultant velocity at the wrist or even middle fingertip. There's a lot of reasons why, most are unknown.

Baseball is far from being solved when it comes to what actually creates velocity, spin, and command. It's a fun thing to research. Also very hard.

Kyle Boddy posted:
2020dad posted:

As for a couple comments that scouts aren't looking at spin rate. I don't think that is true. Some are. But as I mentioned I am concerned about how many. There is no doubt in my mind spin rate/effective spin rate will have an equal seat at the table just don't know how soon. The smart programs will be first in line. 

Area scouts aren't looking at spin rate, but they're reporting it to the front office - and they care very much. I've done draft work for a handful of teams and they all note it. I also receive phone calls and emails right around the draft on my draft-eligible trainees about Trackman data. 

I am hoping colleges get on this train within the next couple years!

2020dad posted:
Kyle Boddy posted:
2020dad posted:

As for a couple comments that scouts aren't looking at spin rate. I don't think that is true. Some are. But as I mentioned I am concerned about how many. There is no doubt in my mind spin rate/effective spin rate will have an equal seat at the table just don't know how soon. The smart programs will be first in line. 

Area scouts aren't looking at spin rate, but they're reporting it to the front office - and they care very much. I've done draft work for a handful of teams and they all note it. I also receive phone calls and emails right around the draft on my draft-eligible trainees about Trackman data. 

I am hoping colleges get on this train within the next couple years!

At least one is. They ask me for Trackman data all the time. A bunch of schools in the ACC are getting with it as well.

Scott Munroe posted:

Kyle,

Is there a particular stat from the Trackman offerings that coaches are looking at? Besides Velo..

Haha, you know them too well.

Spin rate and direction are two major things, as well as total movement of pitches. I hired a very intelligent kid from UNC who is 18 years old and runs an 8 person analytics team for the baseball team. They chop up Trackman data like you wouldn't believe. They have a lot of input on the field and in recruiting. UNC is becoming the most statistically-advanced college baseball team in the nation. 

Kyle Boddy posted:
2020dad posted:
Kyle Boddy posted:

We have Trackman and Rapsodo in our facility to measure spin rate and directionality. There's a lot more to spin rate than just the gross number. It's a fairly complicated topic and as people have noted, I've written a lot about it on my blog.

I'll tell you a good way to manipulate spin rate: Pine tar or firm grip. Give it a shot and measure it. Then report back

Kyle, remember we had this conversation about a year ago. Thought of some ways to reduce spin rate but increasing it - a lot tougher. Have you guys come up with anything since then?

Yes. It's somewhat complicated and not conclusive yet. Continuing to test things this off-season since we have a ton of pros in here.

Anyone who says they have the answer is definitely lying. Or way smarter than me. Which is totally possible.

I do not think anyone solved it yet but would you publish it if you solved it? That information is worth a ton and if for example Dr buffi and the Dodgers solved it they would have a big incentive to keep it in house to keep the edge (at least for 1 to 2 seasons, then it would likely come out anyway.

Dominik85 posted:

I do not think anyone solved it yet but would you publish it if you solved it? That information is worth a ton and if for example Dr buffi and the Dodgers solved it they would have a big incentive to keep it in house to keep the edge (at least for 1 to 2 seasons, then it would likely come out anyway.

Yeah we'd publish it somehow. If it wasn't actionable information, we'd publish it openly. If it was actionable information and it was groundbreaking, we'd probably productize and charge for it. 

roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

It is a good/serious question.  I don't know the answer really - our older son tells me that he ultimately moved into a reliever role in pro ball because he didn't have the same command that starters have.  Why couldn't he be trained to have more of it?

But a clue to the 'develop' part that may be worth something?  Our younger son, who has such good command that at times he has been coached in pro ball to throw pitches more out of the zone on purpose at times.  In his HS program (different from older son's and one of the best), nearly every bullpen came with a command and control "game."  PC would award points, hamburgers, milk shakes, whatever....to the pitchers for winning a 'game' of locating their pitches.  The program in general had high rewards for locating pitches in practices and games.  Pretty much a mindset, embedded in his brain.

Don't know if that is largely responsible?  Or maybe its just a skill not everyone has?  But I gotta believe that four HS years had more than a little impact on his command.

Kyle Boddy posted:

We have Trackman and Rapsodo in our facility to measure spin rate and directionality. There's a lot more to spin rate than just the gross number. It's a fairly complicated topic and as people have noted, I've written a lot about it on my blog.

I'll tell you a good way to manipulate spin rate: Pine tar or firm grip. Give it a shot and measure it. Then report back

I was gonna say that, but didn't.  Still...its true.

2020dad posted:
Kyle Boddy posted:

We have Trackman and Rapsodo in our facility to measure spin rate and directionality. There's a lot more to spin rate than just the gross number. It's a fairly complicated topic and as people have noted, I've written a lot about it on my blog.

I'll tell you a good way to manipulate spin rate: Pine tar or firm grip. Give it a shot and measure it. Then report back

Kyle, remember we had this conversation about a year ago. Thought of some ways to reduce spin rate but increasing it - a lot tougher. Have you guys come up with anything since then?

I don't think the physics of producing spin are unknown, but rather how such physics get introduced into a pitching motion on a generic basis.  For instance, someone mentioned laying the wrist back and then advancing that joint (flicking) ahead of arm speed.  That should produce additional spin (assuming other things don't change).  Reality is that laying back the wrist further than one currently does will 99% of the time change other things in the delivery, for good or bad or simply different.  Its kind on like handing over a baseball and a couple 18 yo kids to a physicist and telling him to create the perfect pitching motion.  They will go to the drawing board and figure out the "angles" and come back and instruct the kids how to throw.  Some will be better than others as the mechanics will fit better, but the physicist is someone who can then tinker with these guys and improve their pitching by going against the optimum path that came from the drawing board.  I think if you delivered your kid to Kyle and asked for some additional RPM - while not backsliding on any other aspects such a MPH or command - Kyle could probably tweak based on this one individual.

2017LHP has some high spin.  He does have longer fingers and a fluid motion which I believe helps everything catch up (gives himself time for wrist and fingers to accelerate past the arm).  I have wondered about what Kyle said concerning pine tar or grip.  I have always wondered if professional pitchers have any type of "skin care" regiment when it comes to their hands.  2017LHP doesn't even go the his mouth in February when it is below 40 degrees and swears pitching in 40 degree weather is not much different from 80 degree weather when it comes to gripping the ball.  My fingertips are like a bowling ball when it gets down to 40.  I'm thinking a kid's natural skin "texture" (not exactly sure what term to use) may have some influence on pitching.  Think about some kid that maybe has a job swinging a hammer or simply loves BP and develops some tough skin.  Doesn't this tough skin simply have less stick to the ball and allow the ball to slip out just before the very ends of the fingertips impart that last bit of spin.  This is one of my little ideas that 2017LHP thinks is stupid and therefore doesn't concern himself with any skin care.

Lastly, has anyone read any good articles on the sequencing of moves in pitching?  This sounds good, but I get the impression that to perfectly line up the sequence and continue to line up that sequence as some moves speed up requires timing that cannot necessarily be taught.  Just think sequencing 1) trunk roation, 2) shoulder, 3) elbow, 4) wrist, and maybe 5) fingers.  1,2 and 3 are larger moves (of course #1 starts the sequence so no problem there), but as the arm accelerates, the window to perfectly time #4 and #5 gets extremely small.  I guess I am curios to see if anyone has put any measurements on this timing.

justbaseball posted:
roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

It is a good/serious question.  I don't know the answer really - our older son tells me that he ultimately moved into a reliever role in pro ball because he didn't have the same command that starters have.  Why couldn't he be trained to have more of it?

But a clue to the 'develop' part that may be worth something?  Our younger son, who has such good command that at times he has been coached in pro ball to throw pitches more out of the zone on purpose at times.  In his HS program (different from older son's and one of the best), nearly every bullpen came with a command and control "game."  PC would award points, hamburgers, milk shakes, whatever....to the pitchers for winning a 'game' of locating their pitches.  The program in general had high rewards for locating pitches in practices and games.  Pretty much a mindset, embedded in his brain.

Don't know if that is largely responsible?  Or maybe its just a skill not everyone has?  But I gotta believe that four HS years had more than a little impact on his command.

I think some element of command comes from the pitcher gaining a precise understanding their movements - maybe call it awareness.  My 2017LHP at some point starting talking about why an individual pitch did not end up where he wanted it.  I guess he developed some sort of feedback loop to where he didn't have to be told - which is good because the difference can be so small as to escape most observers.  He has decent control, but seems to have an excellent grasp of what occurred during any given pitch.  He may not be able to make the correction instantaneously, but eventually he'll start putting it where he wants.  Also helps when he is given instruction and potential changes and helps with the back and forth with the coach on what's working, what's not working and possibly why (is the change affecting other aspects where the net effect is negative).

2017LHPscrewball posted:
justbaseball posted:
roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

It is a good/serious question.  I don't know the answer really - our older son tells me that he ultimately moved into a reliever role in pro ball because he didn't have the same command that starters have.  Why couldn't he be trained to have more of it?

But a clue to the 'develop' part that may be worth something?  Our younger son, who has such good command that at times he has been coached in pro ball to throw pitches more out of the zone on purpose at times.  In his HS program (different from older son's and one of the best), nearly every bullpen came with a command and control "game."  PC would award points, hamburgers, milk shakes, whatever....to the pitchers for winning a 'game' of locating their pitches.  The program in general had high rewards for locating pitches in practices and games.  Pretty much a mindset, embedded in his brain.

Don't know if that is largely responsible?  Or maybe its just a skill not everyone has?  But I gotta believe that four HS years had more than a little impact on his command.

I think some element of command comes from the pitcher gaining a precise understanding their movements - maybe call it awareness.  My 2017LHP at some point starting talking about why an individual pitch did not end up where he wanted it.  I guess he developed some sort of feedback loop to where he didn't have to be told - which is good because the difference can be so small as to escape most observers.  He has decent control, but seems to have an excellent grasp of what occurred during any given pitch.  He may not be able to make the correction instantaneously, but eventually he'll start putting it where he wants.  Also helps when he is given instruction and potential changes and helps with the back and forth with the coach on what's working, what's not working and possibly why (is the change affecting other aspects where the net effect is negative).

Scouts often refer to athletic ability when it comes to potential to learn command. Someone with better motor skills might have more potential to improve his command.

Great dialog.  Regarding command, we try to dumb things down for our HS staff and this correlates with many comments here.  

Work toward consistent mechanics.  Help them recognize the effect very slight changes in direction of the landing foot has (working inside/outside).  Help them recognize the effect of release point and bend in the finish (up/down).  Work on shrinking the targets.  Bullpens with location focus.  Bullpens with location competition.  Just wish I could afford burgers and shakes for every competition 

So, here is my take on command - it either comes or it doesn't. I don't teach command; I teach consistency and velocity. In my experience, command comes with repetition once mechanics are cemented to the greatest degree possible. The more you screw around with mechanics, the longer it's going to take to maximize command. I used to try and teach command by targeting and focus - trying to pitch to smaller and smaller spots. Others try to get command out of their pitchers by tempering velocity. I really don't think either method works. In the past few years, as I continually increase my focus on underweight/overweight programs, I believe I'm seeing much better results in improved command that accompanies increased velocity. I think a lot of this has to do with proprioception work. 

My best example is always Randy Johnson. You may remember that early in his career, he was about as wild as it gets in the majors. He was also constantly screwing around with his mechanics. Once he got that down, his accuracy greatly improved. 

Kyle Boddy posted:

The major league ball is so, so much less textured than an amateur ball. That's a big reason pitchers use rosin/sunscreen (if they aren't cheating and just want a grip) or pine tar / firm grip (if they are cheating).

Feel a brand-new, poorly-rubbed minor league or major league ball. It feels like warm ice in your hand.

Anything interesting or unique you have run across with MLB/MiLB pitchers to improve grip?  Heard something once about using a nail file on the fingertips themsleves.  Suppose this might work for a single outing or two, but might build up some callouses longer term.  

Any strategies as it relates to weather?  Daily moisturizing?  Fluid intake?  Perspiration issues?  Gloves (thinking hand model stuff here)?  Manicures?  Always assumed MLB teams had a manicurist in staff, but think someone corrected me on that one.  Maybe this won't be of any real value, but I have to believe there are some funny stories out there.

The spin rate thing is something I paid minimal attention to until last summer when my kid was at the PG Jr. Nationals. He's always thrown a "heavy" fastball. I couldn't help but notice his fastball spin rate at that event maxed out at 1157 rpm. His changeup, by comparison (which actually sucks) was at 1667 rpm and his curve at 1172. These numbers seemed awfully low when comparing him to other pitchers and my first instinct was to research ways I might improve those numbers. However, my research led me to 1) question the validity of such a slow spin rate on an 88mph fastball and 2) decide that, if the numbers were indeed valid, I wouldn't want to mess with them. It might actually explain his extraordinary swing and miss rate at events where a high 80's fastball should be rather hittable.

justbaseball posted:
roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

It is a good/serious question.  I don't know the answer really - our older son tells me that he ultimately moved into a reliever role in pro ball because he didn't have the same command that starters have.  Why couldn't he be trained to have more of it?

But a clue to the 'develop' part that may be worth something?  Our younger son, who has such good command that at times he has been coached in pro ball to throw pitches more out of the zone on purpose at times.  In his HS program (different from older son's and one of the best), nearly every bullpen came with a command and control "game."  PC would award points, hamburgers, milk shakes, whatever....to the pitchers for winning a 'game' of locating their pitches.  The program in general had high rewards for locating pitches in practices and games.  Pretty much a mindset, embedded in his brain.

Don't know if that is largely responsible?  Or maybe its just a skill not everyone has?  But I gotta believe that four HS years had more than a little impact on his command.

I think generally teams want every pitcher to be a starter but at some point they want to see results. If you are a power arm and you are 22 with 4 minor league years they might prefer that he becomes a good reliever instead of waiting more years for something that might never come. But if you are 19 and in your second  year they probably give you more chances.

I also read that small market teams often give more chances to Start because they cant buy SP while big market and contending teams might prefer quick help from the pen. 

2017LHPscrewball posted:
Kyle Boddy posted:

The major league ball is so, so much less textured than an amateur ball. That's a big reason pitchers use rosin/sunscreen (if they aren't cheating and just want a grip) or pine tar / firm grip (if they are cheating).

Feel a brand-new, poorly-rubbed minor league or major league ball. It feels like warm ice in your hand.

Anything interesting or unique you have run across with MLB/MiLB pitchers to improve grip?  Heard something once about using a nail file on the fingertips themsleves.  Suppose this might work for a single outing or two, but might build up some callouses longer term.  

Any strategies as it relates to weather?  Daily moisturizing?  Fluid intake?  Perspiration issues?  Gloves (thinking hand model stuff here)?  Manicures?  Always assumed MLB teams had a manicurist in staff, but think someone corrected me on that one.  Maybe this won't be of any real value, but I have to believe there are some funny stories out there.

Not really. Usual pine tar and substances stuff on the hands. Nothing too crazy.

Kyle Boddy posted:
2017LHPscrewball posted:
Kyle Boddy posted:

The major league ball is so, so much less textured than an amateur ball. That's a big reason pitchers use rosin/sunscreen (if they aren't cheating and just want a grip) or pine tar / firm grip (if they are cheating).

Feel a brand-new, poorly-rubbed minor league or major league ball. It feels like warm ice in your hand.

Anything interesting or unique you have run across with MLB/MiLB pitchers to improve grip?  Heard something once about using a nail file on the fingertips themsleves.  Suppose this might work for a single outing or two, but might build up some callouses longer term.  

Any strategies as it relates to weather?  Daily moisturizing?  Fluid intake?  Perspiration issues?  Gloves (thinking hand model stuff here)?  Manicures?  Always assumed MLB teams had a manicurist in staff, but think someone corrected me on that one.  Maybe this won't be of any real value, but I have to believe there are some funny stories out there.

Not really. Usual pine tar and substances stuff on the hands. Nothing too crazy.

Have you done actual measurements With Pine tar? Does it really help? 

I would think it would most definitely help if the pitcher has no tackiness to his fingertips and the ball sort of slides out of the fingertips as opposed to the ball getting that final bit of force applied at the tip of the fingertips.  There are lots of folks that think pine tar ought to be legal at times - probably if the umpire is going to let the pitcher go to his mouth, then it is probably cold enough to break out the pine tar.  The folks that promote pine tar during cold weather argue that it improves safety as fewer pitches "get away" from the pitcher.  Pine tar probably has limited added value on FB spin rate for some 15 yo with supple hands pitching in 85 degree weather.  

interesting rules on what the pitcher can (very little) and what they cannot do (long list) to the ball during a game.  The only legal thing they can do is "rub it with their bare hands".  The rule clearly states that you cannot apply licorice to the ball among other substances.  My understanding of "spit" is to either reduce spin (have the ball slide out of fingers) or, when heavily applied, make the ball unbalanced.

Looks like there is some research on the topic.  The abstract says the findings may be applicable in tool handle and work station surface design.  

An investigation of human palmar skin friction and the effects of materials, pinch force and moisture

Pages 317-325 | Received 12 May 1987, Accepted 25 Sep 1987, Published online: 31 May 2007

Root you and I have made almost identical posts on this thread!  Right down to having sons with low spin rate. Yes the high spin rate four seemer is sexier and will have higher swing and miss tate cause easier to adjust a bat down slightly in mid swing than up. But ground ball rate will be up and pitch counts down. We are experimenting with wrist large back on four seemer now - just four seemer. Not sure he will be able to do that for one pitch only but we will see. But while everybody else is out there looking for the hook grail - high rpm four seemer - we are sticking with the easier to manipulate low rpm two seemers and change up.  I am confident in three years time there will be colleges smart enough to pick up a pitcher because of low rpm. If not...  got to eat some more chicken wings and fatten up for football!

I used to throw my FB with my fingers across the railroad tracks, the way I saw Roger Clemens showed it on TV once, but I don't know anyone who uses that grip.  It improves my SR and helps me get further distance on the ball, but with 0-2mph decrease in velocity.  Some people pitch a softball FB with that grip as it reduces drag at low speeds.  At high speeds, the traditional 4 seam grip would also reduce drag and create lift at the same time.  

As for pine tar, that tiger stick looks like good stuff.  

Last edited by hsbaseball101

Some Scouts say you can develope control but not command (of course control vs command is arbitrary but Scouts say control is throwing in or very near the strike Zone and command is hitting spots - kinda like fine Motor skills vs gross Motor skills like Lifting a dumbell vs painting an art work).

that basically means you often can teach a wild guy that is all over the place and misses by 3 feet all the time to throw the ball near the Zone rather consistently but you can't teach "painting the Corners" consistently.

I would say that being able to throw "near" the Zone is an important skill. of course you Need to throw strikes but if a guy consistently misses by 3-4 inches it can be bad in a given game with a tight ump but it is not as worrysome as a guy who misses by 2-3 feet all the time.

without control it is hard to survive as a pitcher, but guys with plus stuff can get away with mediocre command if they avoid too many walks (especially in the BP, as a starter that is tougher).

Last edited by Dominik85
Kyle Boddy posted:
Scott Munroe posted:

Kyle,

Is there a particular stat from the Trackman offerings that coaches are looking at? Besides Velo..

Haha, you know them too well.

Spin rate and direction are two major things, as well as total movement of pitches. I hired a very intelligent kid from UNC who is 18 years old and runs an 8 person analytics team for the baseball team. They chop up Trackman data like you wouldn't believe. They have a lot of input on the field and in recruiting. UNC is becoming the most statistically-advanced college baseball team in the nation. 

Is the spin efficiency (measured by Rapsodo, I think, not Trackman) a relevant item? I guess that correlates with movement, so maybe that is the right metric for them?

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