Fingers off the seams???

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

Find a facility near you that has REV FIRE. Son trains at the Florida Baseball Ranch and REV FIRE is used to track spin rate and there.

To the above poster's point, we have yet to have a scout mention spin rate. Two main topics that come up are ALWAYS grades and velocity.

I would work on a third pitch if you feel he has command and control of  1 & 2. Change up comes to mind and/or cutter. 

wareagle posted:

Background:

Son is 2019 RHP. Velo - 84-86 last year hoping for a little bump up this year???

breaking ball spin rate 90th percentile per track man. 

Fatball spin rate 35th percentile. 

When I watch him pitch, these numbers appear to hold true. Lots of break on breaking ball and gets more ground balls than fly balls. So I assume he is getting more of a "heavy fastball". 

When looking at spin rate on his fast ball. I would assume that to be "top level". It needs to be in the top 80th percentile or the  bottom 20th percentile. 

Given his current numbers, it seems that it would be easier to try to lower the spin rate 15percent vs trying to raise it 45 percent.???

i read an article that suggested to lower spin rate you may be able to simply move the fingers off of the seams.  I don't want to mess  with his control and I dont have any way of knowing if this was reducing spin rate or not until he pitched using track man again. 

Any thoughts???

is there anywhere in Georgia that has a rental facilty that has track man or similar system available??

i am really intrigued with  spin rate, if anyone knows of other good articles. 

Thanks

I believe that a Georgia version of the Baseball Ranch will be opening soon in the Roswell area. Let me get the number and PM it to you. 

HShuler-thanks. Please do

He has a change up. When it good it's really good. When it's not, it's really not.  Still working on consistency.  His HS coaches are just starting to look at a cutter. They say it looks promising. We will see?

i really don't expect that anyone woul ask what his spin rate is. But from what I am reading, it can affect results. And coaches do see that.  I am not completely sold, and I am not ready to attempt major mechanical changes to try to improve spin rate. But if something as simply as changing the fastball grip could add a little more drop, then I would certainly be willing to have him try. I was curious if anyone had tried this with good or bad results.   

Thanks for the responses so far!

I read good things about FBR. Do they do anything specific to improve spin rates or just measure them?

Wareagle 

So far FBR is just providing a means to measure spin rate. What we did learn though is those pitchers with high spin rates tend to do better Throwing higher in the zone and those with lower spin rates tend to do better lower in the zone.

I knew this thread was coming soon enough!!

You're right, spin ultimately has relevance.  But your son is a sophomore in HS with plenty of velocity for his age/grade.  Focus on learning how to throw 3 pitches for strikes - he!!, even 2 for strikes would be '90th percentile!'

Colleges benches are full of over-tinkered-with hitters and pitchers.

Try to relax and have some fun for the next 3 years.

Have you read through the Driveline stuff on spin rate?  Interesting stuff.

The focus on spin rates is so new, and the technology is still really in it's infancy.  I think over the next few years we are going to learn a lot.

As Driveline mentions though, it's not just about the raw spin rate - but how effective that spin is.  As you noted, sometimes a lower spin rate can get the pitcher the desired result as well.

The problem is of course as they mention..." But there is a lot we don’t know. We don’t know how to increase a pitcher’s spin rate. We don’t know what factors change spin rate (besides splitters), be it grip, limb length, hand size, mechanics, etc."

In your case, I don't see that there is any harm in varying the grip and seeing what happens.  You may not be able to get a measurement of the spin, but you can see the movement.  If it gets the movement you seek, well - it's the right spin rate for you guys regardless of what a reading might say.

You would think moving off the seams would decrease friction and therefore spin rate, but at the same time it could change the angle of the spin and render it less effective.  I don't think there is any way to really predict what will happen.  You just have to go out there and try it.

WarEagle - Pitchers experiment with different grips and ways to create movement all the time. 

I don't think there are drills that he can do to improve spin rate but he can work to create more movement. 

I am sending contact through PM now. 

Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

roothog66 posted:

Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

C'mon, you just tell the kid to throw strikes.

Works every time.

Rob T posted:

roothog66 posted:

Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

C'mon, you just tell the kid to throw strikes.

Works every time.

My wife seems to think so.

roothog66 posted:

Rob T posted:

roothog66 posted:

Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

C'mon, you just tell the kid to throw strikes.

Works every time.

My wife seems to think so.

Thought cloud - "Mom, what the heck do you think I was trying to do?"

hshuler posted:

roothog66 posted:

Rob T posted:

roothog66 posted:

Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

C'mon, you just tell the kid to throw strikes.

Works every time.

My wife seems to think so.

Thought cloud - "Mom, what the heck do you think I was trying to do?"

Hah! My kid hooked up early in the fall with a pretty well known team for a showcase. He started the game by walking the first two batters and the coach yells out at him, "You're overthrowing! Slow it down and just throw strikes." I'm thinking, "Coach, do you not see those 25 guys standing behind the backstop with radar guns? Those guns aren't for measuring accuracy."

"Coach, do you not see those 25 guys standing behind the backstop with radar guns? Those guns aren't for measuring accuracy."  

That has to win the award for most true and funny at the same time!  On my son's team the guy throwing gas (but not the most accurate) verbally committs this year. The most accurate pitcher gets selected for All Tourney All American.  

hshuler posted:

WarEagle - Pitchers experiment with different grips and ways to create movement all the time. 

I don't think there are drills that he can do to improve spin rate but he can work to create more movement. 

I am sending contact through PM now. 

Agree with Shu on this. Experiment. I know college camps are mostly about making money and recruiting but I will say as I have said before South Carolina does a nice job of giving quality instruction as well. And my son and I both agree that the breakout on grips at their pitching camp was 100% worth the cost of the camp. They went over a number of grips and the purpose behind them. But their strongest message was to experiment. That no two deliveries are exactly alike and different grips work for different guys. Don't get out in the cookie cutter. My son had the hardest time finding a change up grip. He took this advice to heart and messed with every stupid way of gripping the change he could think of. Finally he found one that has been nothing short of dominant for him. ~10mph difference and drops off the table to the point it almost resembles a splitter or true 12/6 curve. He has 4 different two seemers he throws. One of them with high speed camera we estimates to be around 1000rpm (insanely low). Easily gets the highest ground ball percentage on his team. It's not as sexy as 2900rpm and striking everybody out but he goes deep into games. 

My one question on dropping rpm - cause I agree easier to manipulate for low rpm than high - is will the scouts pay attention to this over the next few years. The technology is there and it is real. But baseball coaches have sometimes been slow to accept data. Favoring the 90mph guy with 2200 spin rate who will get rocked rather than the 85mph 1300 spin rate guy who will induce one ground ball after another. 

Some will say there is no snap of the wrist in a pitch. And if you think about it like holding your arm still and flicking your wrist I agree. But watch very carefully super slow motion and the wrist does aid in the pitch. I would  assume long fingers are an important factor for high rpm. But since there is little we can do about that stronger wrist and fingers are second best thing. The more that wrist can travel throughout the course of the pitch the more backspin. But your wrist and fingers will need a lot of strength to outrun the speed of your arm.  Tensile strength is another measurement that is becoming big. 

Sorry for the long post. Hope it is helpful!

We have Trackman and Rapsodo in our facility to measure spin rate and directionality. There's a lot more to spin rate than just the gross number. It's a fairly complicated topic and as people have noted, I've written a lot about it on my blog.

I'll tell you a good way to manipulate spin rate: Pine tar or firm grip. Give it a shot and measure it. Then report back

roothog66 posted:

Dominik85 posted:

2 or 4 seam? I think a low spin 4 seamer is never good.

however I would not try to tinker with that yet and Focus on developing command and Velo.

So, a serious question because, after 35 years of coaching I still don't have an answer; how do you "develop" command?

Great question root. And great discussion here. Root I have always been of the mind that the same thing that increases velocity also increases command/control. Smooth and repeatable mechanics. I realize command connotes something a little different than control but I think it all comes down to repeatable mechanics and reps. Just don't think there is any shortcutting that. But if you find the way let me know!!

As for a couple comments that scouts aren't looking at spin rate. I don't think that is true. Some are. But as I mentioned I am concerned about how many. There is no doubt in my mind spin rate/effective spin rate will have an equal seat at the table just don't know how soon. The smart programs will be first in line.