Flyball Error or Hit?

quote:

Originally posted by baseballdad13:
If a fielder goes over ten to fifteen steps and misses the ball its an error? What if he runs twenty to thirty steps and ball bounces off his glove?

Question: How far do you have to go for it to be considered a hit when fielder cannot make the play?

I have seen hits where fielder got there just didn't make the catch and other times when fielder was late, ball dropped and they called an error.

I know people will say its the official scorers judgment on if it was considered a routine play (catchable ball or not).

My left fielder turned around to chase line drive fly ball, cleats got stuck in grass, pulled out continued to ball path, goes over head but touches glove and they called it an error. It was a good hit but again he didn't travel too far to get there..Yeah he would have been right there if not for a quick slip..Who knows for sure?

Its not whether the scorer thinks is a routine play or how far the fielder had to go to make the play. The standard is ORDINARY EFFORT.

This is easily the rule I’ve posted more than any other, and the one most often misapplied and/or misunderstood.

BOR 2.00 - ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.

Rule 2.00 (Ordinary Effort) Comment: This standard, called for several times in the Official Scoring Rules (e.g., Rules 10.05(a)(3), 10.05(a)(4), 10.05(a)(6), 10.05(b)(3) (Base Hits); 10.08(b) (Sacrifices); 10.12(a)(1) Comment, 10.12(d)(2) (Errors); and 10.13(a), 10.13(b) (Wild Pitches and
Passed Balls)) and in the Official Baseball Rules (e.g., Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly)), is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder. In other words, even if a fielder makes his best effort, if that effort falls short of what an average fielder at that position in that league would have made in a situation, the official scorer should charge that fielder with an error.

The difficulty is, many scorers don’t have a good idea of what the “average” player’s abilities are for the game they’re scoring. Here’s the way its SUPPOSED to work.

Let’s say you’re scoring a game in our league. All of the teams are large schools(DI), and in our area there are only 3 leagues with 18 teams in them, and they’re all fairly equal when it comes to the quality of players. So, when you’re scoring a game where two of those teams is laying each other, its fair to say the average player at any given position will likely be better than the average player from a DVII team.

The result is, when you score a game with 2 of the big boys playing, you’re supposed to be a bit tougher scoring plays than if one of the teams was a tiny school. The same thing goes for scoring a JV game. When I score a JV game, the 1st thing I do is try to get my mid ready to see play that isn’t up to Varsity standards, which by definition its not. So a ball I’d mark as an E for a big school V game might be marked as a hit in a JV game.

Don’t feel bad if you have trouble with this concept. Our V coach has been a HDHVC for more than 20 years now, and he still thinks it’s the quality of the player trying to make the play that determines whether or not something’s a hit or an error. It’s the play. Would the AVG player at that position have made it?

OK, Stats, for the sake of argument, let me ask you...

You have a guy playing RF who can flat out fly. He plays in an average HS league. He takes off for lazy fly ball hit down RF line. A RF with average speed would not get to this ball. This guy gets a great jump, flies over to the line, has the ball tracked, cruises the last two steps and then just boots the ball. Are you giving a hit or an error?

I think sometimes the rules provide a framework for the spirit of the rule but there is still some judgement and common sense that has to be applied for the final ruling. If you are going by the letter of the law and giving this play a hit, I disagree with you. I'm guessing that your coach and most baseball people would also disagree with ruling this a hit.

Regarding the OP, if field conditions were normal, I'm inclined to say E, but, like most of these things, you kinda have to see the play. A minor slip or less-tha-great jump are usually not penalized, but basically tripping over your own feet and not fielding a routine fly ball because of it would be E.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
OK, Stats, for the sake of argument, let me ask you...

You have a guy playing RF who can flat out fly. He plays in an average HS league. He takes off for lazy fly ball hit down RF line. A RF with average speed would not get to this ball. This guy gets a great jump, flies over to the line, has the ball tracked, cruises the last two steps and then just boots the ball. Are you giving a hit or an error?

I think sometimes the rules provide a framework for the spirit of the rule but there is still some judgement and common sense that has to be applied for the final ruling. If you are going by the letter of the law and giving this play a hit, I disagree with you. I'm guessing that your coach and most baseball people would also disagree with ruling this a hit.

Regarding the OP, if field conditions were normal, I'm inclined to say E, but, like most of these things, you kinda have to see the play. A minor slip or less-tha-great jump are usually not penalized, but basically tripping over your own feet and not fielding a routine fly ball because of it would be E.

Your assumption is that the ENTIRE play be lumped into one Yes/No box, but that’s not how I or most other experienced scorers do it. I try to break it down into 2 parts. Getting to the ball, and then making the play. In your example, had this player never gotten to the ball it would be a no brainer, no E. But once he got there and got into position, its something else. Why do you think players with terrific range make so many errors? If you check you’ll usually find the errors are made on throws, not mishandling the ball. You’d have me believe a play where the SS dives deep into the hole to snag a ball, then gets up in plenty of time to get set, then makes a rotten throw shouldn’t get an error.

So, in your example the speed of the fielder had absolutely nothing to do with the actual scoring. He should get dinged for mishandling a ball the average player should/would have handled had he gotten there.

Good point on the fielding range. Athletic Shortstops get to balls in the hole that 80-90% of others wouldn't. They should eat them, instead how many times have you seen the throw that never had a chance go up the right field line or in the stands? Single and an error on the same play.

Of course on some percentage of these plays a single gets turned into an out. With the great one's they learn to know when to throw'em and when to hold'em.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Good point on the fielding range. Athletic Shortstops get to balls in the hole that 80-90% of others wouldn't. They should eat them, instead how many times have you seen the throw that never had a chance go up the right field line or in the stands? Single and an error on the same play.

Of course on some percentage of these plays a single gets turned into an out. With the great one's they learn to know when to throw'em and when to hold'em.

You’re right on with that last statement, and its one of the things I enjoy most about my job. Over the course of time, I get to see players make those mistakes that stretch themselves, and teach them what their limits are. Most players just keep making the same mistakes over and over again, but the truly gifted ones learn for every mistake, and as time goes by, you see them zeroing in on what they can and can’t do, and when they can take a chance and when they shouldn’t.