Football lifting in baseball season

There were only 9 days out of the year that were off-limits for weight lifting. 9 Fridays in the fall for Varsity football players. Every other sport we lifted whenever including the day of games quite often. Don't worry about it..

I wouldn't worry about the time they are lifting. First thing in the morning is common. It's more about how they are lifting. Usually, in-season lifting involves more reps and possibly less sets. For example:
Off-season = 3 sets, 8-10 reps max (power building)
In-season = 1-2 sets, 15-20 reps (maintenance)
I'm sure there are valid points for other opinions on this. My example fit my needs well but everyone is different.

Baseball By The Yard

I coach in Texas where football is king - moreover, my high school has the best football winning tradition in South Texas. Weight training is mandatory for all athletes in all grades. Football lifts three days a week including a game day. As for baseball we lift three days a week in the fall and in the spring we lift after practice on Monday and Thursday and then Saturday morning. In the fall we lift for power and strength but in the Spring we lift for maintenance - high rep - low weight. Get this - I don't even get my baseball players in my baseball class - they stay in football class. We make it work and our baseball workout only takes 20 minutes if you get in there and bust your butt. Our baseball lifts include many variations of the squat, many variations of platform olympic lifts, towel bench, bicep curls and extensions and finally we close out with bent over row and shoulder press.

My main concerns were: (1) injury and (2) fatigue.

I would hope if they lift "right" the risk of injury is no greater than what they face shooting hoops in the backyard, or climbing a tree, or sledding or driving a car. So I'm not going to worry about what I can't control.

The fatigue issued concerned me, but it sounds like maybe that isn't too big of a concern either. My position is that they DO NOT lift ON GAME DAYS. If they can get it in on off days or weekend days, it sounds like it probably isn't detrimental. Our season is 27 games spread over about a month and a half, so it shouldn't wear them out too much.

We'll see how this works out. Thanks for the input.

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The fatigue issued concerned me, but it sounds like maybe that isn't too big of a concern either.

Remember that professional baseball players workout on game day all the time. Yes, there is a difference between a pro player and a high school player.

But I see no problem with lifting on game day.

Of course, your concern of lifting on game days is crucial for baseball players. Again, in my high school all sports lift - baseball lifts three times a week and never on game day. During the tournaments we do not lift either. Now the players that also play football they will do a 50% workout in football class and I communicate with the football coaches as to who the baseball players are and they cooperate. Now the only player in football class that will not lift on game day is the starting pitcher, relief pitcher and the catcher. These baseball players will have to make up their lift on another day or early morning the next day. We make it work. Like Bulldog 19 said professional players lift on game day. But lifting the correct way and safe way is important.

OK, so lets say they lift on game days...doesn't a kid who does 3 sets of max squats, heavy bench press, etc., lose something as far as his muscle control, stamina, etc.?

I remember lifting and being "jelly legged" for a day or so.

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kid who does 3 sets of max squats, heavy bench press, etc.,

Well if you're going to do something dumb like that ANY TIME, then yeah there's going to be a problem.

What do you mean, "dumb"....

I would say squats and bench at either a heavy weight, or high reps are probably VERY common as far as football weightlifting is concerned. And I would assume they will go for "max" lifts once a month or so to see their progress.....

Have you talked to the football / weight lifting coaches about how to handle baseball players during the spring? I know football is king in most areas and get to do a lot more than other sports but I think most would be willing to work with you. There are some jerks out there but overall they would modify workouts for athletes in season.

I don't want to speak for Bulldog 19 but I think what he's getting at IMO is that doing that much during a workout would make you pretty much useless after school in any sport. Any athlete during season needs to maintain rather than build. Simply they need to do something along the lines of high reps / low weight in order to maintain. By doing this once they get used to it they will be fine for after school. Pitchers on game day shouldn't lift and need to have something else to do in weightlifting class that day and get a good recovery workout the next day.

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I would say squats and bench at either a heavy weight, or high reps are probably VERY common as far as football weightlifting is concerned. And I would assume they will go for "max" lifts once a month or so to see their progress.....

IF they "max out" it should be one rep total. Not "sets of maxes" because that isn't a "max" if you can do it over and over again.

Also, many of the big names in strength and conditioning never do less than 3 reps in a set. Why? Because there really is no need to do so. Remember that the goal is to get strong to be able to perform on the field...

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Any athlete during season needs to maintain rather than build.

A common misconception. Tell me, coach, what do you do with the athlete who is a 3-sport athlete? When do they "build" if they only maintain in season? A 3-sport athlete who plays football, basketball, and baseball really has no such thing as an "offseason" since we already know their summer is most likely spent playing baseball if not playing all three of them at that time..

I understand where you're going but not sure if I would call it a misconeption or not. While you are correct that a 3 sport athlete would never have the offseason to build and only be able to maintain I think that the 3 sport athlete is a dying breed. I'm only speaking from my perspective so it may not be the case where you are but I'm seeing fewer and fewer 3 sport athletes.

Would you agree that a 2 sport athlete (no matter the sports) could build in the offseason and maintain during the two seasons?

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Would you agree that a 2 sport athlete (no matter the sports) could build in the offseason and maintain during the two seasons?

Nope because tell me what sport has a true "offseason." I can't think of one.

Now I do build "maintenance" days and weeks into the plan, but not for long periods of time such as a season..

Bulldog. I understand what a max lift is; the plural applied to different types of lifts (bench, squat, dead) Curious, do you happen to be a football coach?

I have no problem with lifting in season. In fact, we have baseball lifting. But i assure you the football team would do lifts on one of my game days that I wouldnt want my players to do.

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Curious, do you happen to be a football coach?

Nope. I am a Certified Athletic Trainer. With a strong interest in Strength and Conditioning.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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Would you agree that a 2 sport athlete (no matter the sports) could build in the offseason and maintain during the two seasons?

Nope because tell me what sport has a true "offseason." I can't think of one.

Now I do build "maintenance" days and weeks into the plan, but not for long periods of time such as a season..

What's your definition of an offseason? I think that might be the holdup between us being on the same page. Honestly, I do think we are on the same page (or at least in the same chapter) but I will defer to your knowledge since you are way more qualified than I am.

It's a good discussion but if the football coaches won't listen to you when you tell (not ask) them your baseball players need a modified workout then it's time to go over their head and speak to the AD or principal.

This is a very intriguing discussion. I am not a fan of lifting on game days. I think that a maintanence program is important in season and this is not necessarily something that has to be done in a weight room. It takes 24 hours for a heavily worked muscle to regain it's strength. If someone is working as hard as they should in the morning, they will not have maximal strength that afternoon. If you are lifting just to suppliment your strength and are just maintaining an early workout to keep you where you are and are not working out to push yourself, you can lift but not if you are a pitcher or catcher. Make sure that you are maintaining flexibility throughout.

Also, a spring football lifting schedule should not reflect an inseason baseball schedule. They are very different in those phases of lifting. Baseball season is that, baseball. My players that play football do football lifts after baseball season and during football season. Prior to baseball and during baseball, they lift on our baseball program....period.

Bulldog...being a trainer, would you agree with hsballcoach that 24 hours is needed to return muscles to full strength? If so, then a baseball player lifting for football on the morning of a game would certainly not be at peak strength at 5:00 PM that night. If that is the case, why would I ever want to let a kid lift on gamedays?

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Bulldog...being an athletic trainer, would you agree with hsballcoach that 24 hours is needed to return muscles to full strength? If so, then a baseball player lifting for football on the morning of a game would certainly not be at peak strength at 5:00 PM that night. If that is the case, why would I ever want to let a kid lift on gamedays?

TCB1, I'll spin the question around and see if you can get the answer for yourself: how many days off do professional baseball players get during the season?

Bulldog,
I agree that pro baseball players play nearly daily. That said, I have found nothing in my studies or research that states any research showing less than a 24-48 hour recovery time for full muscle strength recovery. I am certainly open to learning new things though and would love to find research that shows otherwise.

That's certainly true, but what is the point of answering a question with a question? I'm on here asking legitimate questions and you appear to simply respond in a condescending and argumentative manner. So how about this:

1. Are those MLB players doing a baseball structured workout, or one that suits the needs of another coach? Do the two sports lift for different purposes? Do they lift to exhaustion on game days, as I am told our football players do?
2. Are MLB players at all different from 17 year old boys who may not even be good enough athletes to play a sport in college?

TCB1, you'll find through my posts that I do not believe in "football" workouts and "baseball" workouts.

Obviously there are going to be differences in the pediatric athlete and the mature athlete. But that doesn't mean you cannot do a lot of things similar.

If you choose to wait to lift at times where you're going to have 24-48 hours to "recover" before playing again, then you're not going to A) workout much or B) play many games.

The first thing that an athlete should do when determining a weight program is to write down what they hope to accomplish. Are they looking to condition their overall body? Are they looking to lose weight? Are they looking to gain weight? A lineman does not train in the weight room the same way that a long distance runner would train. Programs should be sport and goal specific. The best one's can even be customized for each person, as should be done in a class.

I'm basically with Bulldog here.

The notion of maintain vs gain is a bit misguided. I do think that one can adjust the program a bit in season but not in the "traditional way." You still need to approach it from a strength-building perspective - moving fairly heavy weights for 3-8 reps depending on the day, etc. However, offseason training should include more volume than in-season lifting. AKA more work sets, more auxliary movements, etc. Cutting out the "meat" of the workout, like the few sets where you are at basically maximum effort in the big compound lifts, is not what I would suggest though.

For example, a bench press centered workout in the offseason might be centered around a few progressively heavier sets at a given rep amounts. The last set presumably will be the most difficult and you'd train near (or to) failure. You might also do in that workout some higher rep/lower weight bench press, dumbbell bench press, cable crossovers, direct arm work, incline/decline bench, or a number of other things to further work the chest/upper body.

The way I *might* amend that for in-season training is to KEEP those main heavy sets of bench press but start to cut out the amount of "other" stuff. I think you should do more than just go in the weight room and bench, but you don't necessarily have to focus on hitting the muscle group from every angle and getting completely exhausted.

This is just trying to account for the workload of practice and games taking its toll. As a pitcher, I lift just as hard in-season because I don't get that toll, especially on my legs. If I played a different position, I might think differently and amend as I noted.

Also as Bulldog discussed there's no real "baseball" or "football" workouts. What is commonly referred to as football workouts is just decent overall strength routines - utilizing main compound lifts like bench press, squat, deadlift, military press, clean. Every athlete should be performing these lifts unless injury prevents it. The adjustments from sport to sport IMO would be minimal. For instance, throwing athletes would do well to add some shoulder stabilization work at the end of workouts.

Getting back on to topic here as we have finished the football season and off-season lifting is going to start. Would love to hear from Bulldog some more, and any others who have specific knowledge of the topic.

Coach has impressed on the players that they need to lift year round regardless of what other sport they are in. They will lift Monday through Thursday in the mornings for football players who are in another sport. My original concern was: if we have games M, T and Th, the kids would be playing games 3 days that week where they are also lifting, and would that impact their performance at 5:00 PM that night.

Along with Bulldog's opinion, I'm reading up and discussing with other coaches and trainers that seem to indicated my worries are pretty much unfounded. That players can lift and play later that day without any diminishment in performance. I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea.

BUT.....could it depend on the workout? I'm not completely sure what the workout will be, but will find out by Friday. The FB coach just likes to say that "It will be the hardest thing they've ever done" and "They'll be dripping sweat and sore as hell"....obviously, this concerns me about what intensity level they'll have, and the fatigue issue again. So could there be a workout that IS too strenuous? That could deplete the players' energy level or make them too sore for a baseball game later that night?

Coach also announced a "Lift-A-Thon" fundraiser that the football team is doing in March (during our practice season, but about a week before we start scrimmages). Not knowing exactly what they'll do, would this concern anyone as far as health/safety/fatigue during our season? Thanks for the input.

I do think it's going to depend on the workout and its intensity as well as its focus. I'm big into full-body workouts. But things like CrossFit, P90x, Insanity, etc have no place in a high school athlete's strength and conditioning program.

Any "genius" can design a workout to make someone puke. But if you're not reaching goals, then there's no point in doing it.

Lastly, "lift a thon" I don't like the idea. I understand what he wants to use it for (a fundraiser I assume), but young athletes don't need to be doing excessive weight for excessive reps. And they really don't need to be maxing out all the time.

I believe I stated above my thoughts on "maintaining in season." But your workouts in the gym should complement the work done on the field; not take over that baseball (football, etc) activity!

UPDATE:

Football started it's lifting program a week ago and (amusingly) our baseball lift appears to be more thorough, well-constructed, and actually tougher than the football workout. We've heard from several kids that have lifted with football but conditioned with us, that they wish they could just do the baseball workouts.

Additionally, when I suggested to the football coach that since they are going M,T,W and TH, and we'll generally have games on M and W, that if they miss those days, I'll administer their workout on F and Sat. His resonse was that I didn't know the program and therefore I couldn't adminisiter it....guess the undergrad degree, the law degree, the 27 years of coaching and (I belive) a good dose of common sense aren't enough to take care of a FOOTBALL lifting program vs. a BASEBALL program...

Oh well. I'm happy many of my kids are lifting several days a week with the football team because it will probably help them and most likely won't hurt them. And he's willing to back off a day or so of lifting during the week. So I guess we both will be able to live with it.

Football lifting, here's my story: My son was a high school senior that graduated last year. I had several discussions with both the head and assisstant baeball coaches at his high school regarding their weight training program. The school is a powerhouse in football and both of them coach the sport, so their view was that the same workouts would benefit the baseball team. Heavy squats, bench press, military, clean and jerks etc...all the exercises that i refused to have my son do for one simple reason, they dont help baseball players. I had him working with a trainer since his freshman year that understands the difference in the two sports and had tailored my sons workout for core strength, explosiveness, and balance. There was some weight training involved, but nothing over his head at any time. Now before you start writing a response, this was based on my 20 years of major league experience and working with hundreds of professional players. (by the way, professional players do lift during the season, but seldomly on game days, and the workouts are individually designed and monitored. Not a mass workout all at one time) Having my backround, the coaches did give me their ear, which for some parents would probably not happen, plus my son was an early signee to a major division 1 school. Anyway, they agreed to let my son opt out of a few of there exercises, military press, bench press, clean and jerk. The other players continued with the same regime throughout the fall and spring. The results? One senior pitcher tore his rotator cuff and was done for the season, the other senior was 86=88 as a junior, 82-84 with arm problems the entire senior year. My son went from 91-93, to 94-98 and was drafted in the first round and signed. Oh, bye the way, i have a freshman this year and the school has suddenly adopted the workouts my older son used.

MLB97,

Can you confirm your son went 91-93 as a jr. to 94-98 as a senior? Can you also provide additional detail into the workout program you designed for him and his weekly workout schedule?

Thanks and best of luck to your boy. Keep us posted on his progress in the minors and how his workout program has been designed? Is the workout program similar to the high school program you implemented or different? Has your son been able to add new aspects of the minor league workout program which has helped to facilitate further development?

Thanks for your insight.