I have a pitcher with a broken finger. The injury requires him to wear a splint on the pinky of his throwing hand. Is he allowed to pitch?
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Not allowed as per NFHS rules....
F1 may not wear a bandage, tape or other foreign material on the fingers or palm of his pitching hand that comes in contact with the ball. U1 will instruct F1 to remove the bandage. There is no additional penalty. (6-2-1g Penalty)
F1 may not wear a bandage, tape or other foreign material on the fingers or palm of his pitching hand that comes in contact with the ball. U1 will instruct F1 to remove the bandage. There is no additional penalty. (6-2-1g Penalty)
quote:I have a pitcher with a broken finger. The injury requires him to wear a splint on the pinky of his throwing hand. Is he allowed to pitch?
He shouldn't do so anyway...
quote:Originally posted by slotty:
Not allowed as per NFHS rules....
F1 may not wear a bandage, tape or other foreign material on the fingers or palm of his pitching hand that comes in contact with the ball. U1 will instruct F1 to remove the bandage. There is no additional penalty. (6-2-1g Penalty)
Just for devils advocate, I could read this rule as saying the foreign material is not allowed to come into contact with the ball.....thus if the foreign material is on his pinky it will not contact the ball??????
Thanks for your input guys. Lefthook, that was a good interpretation, our district's rules interpreter came to the same conclusion, focusing on the word "could," so he is clear to pitch. Bulldog, he's been cleared by his doctor to play baseball, which is good enough for me to allow him to play.
Maybe you guys throw a baseball differently than I do, but my pinky is in contact or really close when I throw. I just tried gripping a ball with the pinky sticking out and it was really awkward.
And I have played games after splitting my pinky finger and not being able to use it. No way I could have pitched like that..
And I have played games after splitting my pinky finger and not being able to use it. No way I could have pitched like that..
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:I have a pitcher with a broken finger. The injury requires him to wear a splint on the pinky of his throwing hand. Is he allowed to pitch?
He shouldn't do so anyway...
Plus, no matter the age of the pitcher, the violence of the pitching motion will probably increase the flow of blood to the pitcher's hand and increase the swelling of the broken finger.
quote:Originally posted by jvcoach19:
Thanks for your input guys. Lefthook, that was a good interpretation, our district's rules interpreter came to the same conclusion, focusing on the word "could," so he is clear to pitch. Bulldog, he's been cleared by his doctor to play baseball, which is good enough for me to allow him to play.
Develop more pitching so you don't have to use this guy. Judging from your screen name you're a JV coach and therefore you need to protect these players and develop all of them to the best of your ability.
Plus the semantic argument over whether it could or could not would be a moot point if you're playing against me. I'm going to protest that it is touching the ball and prove to me that it's not. Since you can't prove one way or the other you have to take him out or take off the splint. Is this really an arguement we need to have in the middle of a JV game?
The answer is no - find another pitcher and let this one recover.
quote:Originally posted by jvcoach19:
Thanks for your input guys. Lefthook, that was a good interpretation, our district's rules interpreter came to the same conclusion, focusing on the word "could," so he is clear to pitch. Bulldog, he's been cleared by his doctor to play baseball, which is good enough for me to allow him to play.
Your interpreter is an idiot. Oh, yeah, and he's wrong. But, maybe it's a regional thing.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Maybe you guys throw a baseball differently than I do, but my pinky is in contact or really close when I throw. I just tried gripping a ball with the pinky sticking out and it was really awkward.
And I have played games after splitting my pinky finger and not being able to use it. No way I could have pitched like that..
Played with several pitch grips....minus the circle change, pinky does not even come close to touching the ball...for me anyway. But, i am with Coach on this one, I wouldn't even consider pitching this kid whether he was cleared or not. At that level there is no need to.
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Foreign object on a pitcher's hand? I'm more concerned about a foreign object on a Secret Service agent's hand!
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Foreign object on a pitcher's hand? I'm more concerned about a foreign object on a Secret Service agent's hand!
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Nice one. Too many comebacks...must resist....uuuugghhhh!!!
quote:Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
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Foreign object on a pitcher's hand? I'm more concerned about a foreign object on a Secret Service agent's hand!
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It would appear that the "foreign object" on his hand impeded him from fully compensating the service provider as he had agreed to?? Top Secret clearances aren't necessarily preceded by IQ tests.
quote:Originally posted by slotty:quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:I have a pitcher with a broken finger. The injury requires him to wear a splint on the pinky of his throwing hand. Is he allowed to pitch?
He shouldn't do so anyway...
Plus, no matter the age of the pitcher, the violence of the pitching motion will probably increase the flow of blood to the pitcher's hand and increase the swelling of the broken finger.
Slotty - my thoughts exactly. The players’ doctor either does not know this kid is a pitcher or the doctor is completely unaware of pitching mechanics. It is truly a violent motion, and I don’t think pitching a kid with a broken finger is the best thing for the kid IMHO. As a coach, I wouldn’t do it - ill take a loss before I pitch a kid with a broken finger. As a parent, no way in h3ll.
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Thanks to most of you for your feedback. Most of you make some valid points.
-I haven't pitched him in a game yet, and am holding off on doing so.
- It wouldn't be an issue that disrupts the middle of a game because I'm addressing it with umpires and coaches before the game starts.
- The doctor is aware he is a pitcher and gave him the clearance.
- The kid is about 6'3" and has giant hands, so there would only possibly be contact on change.
- I'm for giving him time to recover, he and HIS DAD are the ones overly eager to put him back on the mound.
- Coach2709, your reply seems a little contradictory. On the one hand you're saying, correctly so, that as a JV coach my job is develop multiple players. I read into that comment that player development is more important than winning at the JV level. However you go on to state that you would argue the point, even though it had been passed down from a higher authority, indicating that winning a game, even on protest, is all important to you.
-I haven't pitched him in a game yet, and am holding off on doing so.
- It wouldn't be an issue that disrupts the middle of a game because I'm addressing it with umpires and coaches before the game starts.
- The doctor is aware he is a pitcher and gave him the clearance.
- The kid is about 6'3" and has giant hands, so there would only possibly be contact on change.
- I'm for giving him time to recover, he and HIS DAD are the ones overly eager to put him back on the mound.
- Coach2709, your reply seems a little contradictory. On the one hand you're saying, correctly so, that as a JV coach my job is develop multiple players. I read into that comment that player development is more important than winning at the JV level. However you go on to state that you would argue the point, even though it had been passed down from a higher authority, indicating that winning a game, even on protest, is all important to you.
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I can't tell you how desperately I want to be in that highly regarded 99%!
"By the way...welcome to the HSBBW jvcoach19!...
..."It sure is nice to see new members on the HSBBW. I think they will learn a lot...most of the time!"
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- "Most of you make some valid points."
I can't tell you how desperately I want to be in that highly regarded 99%!
"By the way...welcome to the HSBBW jvcoach19!...
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quote:Originally posted by slotty:
Not allowed as per NFHS rules....
F1 may not wear a bandage, tape or other foreign material on the fingers or palm of his pitching hand that comes in contact with the ball. U1 will instruct F1 to remove the bandage. There is no additional penalty. (6-2-1g Penalty)
If I'm the opposing coach, I object as soon as Jvcoach19 brings it up in the pre-game get-together at home plate, or barring it being mentioned, as soon as I see the kid warming up with a splint/bandage/etc. on a finger on his pitching hand. I can't imagine an umpire (well, actually, I can imagiine an umpire--but that's a differnt topic altogether!) permitting the pitcher to remain in the game as long as the kid has the splint/bandage/etc. on his finger.
There is no practical way of anybody proving the splint/bandage/etc. is not touching the ball without super slo-mo replay.
If the umpire allows him to pitch with the spint/bandage/etc., then I would protest the game.
He's not pitching in any FED game I'm doing. I don't care what his pitch repertoire is, if it's on the hand, he's either taking it off or not pitching.
jvcoach19 I'm going to cut you some slack right now because you're new and this place is a wonderful site full of information. I know I'm a much better coach from the many things I've learned here from many knowledgable people in baseball. I don't want to see a young coach (that's what I'm assuming you are) run off from here before they have a chance to learn. One of my first posts on here was a joke and I guess because people on here didn't know me yet thought I was being serious and was blasted. I actually left for a while before coming back. I'm glad I came back and didn't let someone's angry post run me off.
First my post isn't contradictory at all and I'm really not sure how you can say it is. I'm bringing it to the umpire's attention a rule is being broken. Like Jimmy said - your assignor is an idiot for saying that he can pitch. You have two well respected members who are umpires say that they would not allow this to take place. Therefore following the rules is not "winning at all costs". In fact it's the things we need to be teaching when it comes to developing these kids into young men with character. I'm not saying that you're not doing this but to follow the rules as they are laid out by the NFHS is not "winning at all costs".
I'm all about developing talent and players because it's the right thing to do for these kids. Nobody cares what their JV record is as long as they are developing. Winning takes care of itself when you focus on doing things correctly over and over. This includes following the rules which is one of the most important messages we can teach these kids.
You know what they call the person who finishes last in medical school? That's right - doctor. I've been around the game long enough and hurt enough that I've come across some "doctors" who don't know their rear end from a stethescope. I've also seen parents fake doctor notes in order for their kids to play. Now I know nothing about the doctor in this case nor do I know the parents. I'm going to take your word that everything is on the up and up.
But this brings me to my next point
Sometimes you have to be the one who protects the kids from their own parents. I've seen so many parents over the years who think they have the next MLB draft pick who throws 80 MPH. They push and push and push no matter what and guess who gets hurt? The kid does. This is where you step up and dictate your lineup in order to develop and protect players. If a parent gets ticked off over it they have two choices - get over it or take their son and go somewhere else. You don't owe the parents anything except a fair chance and to protect their kids.
This changes nothing because it's still against the rules to have anything on the hand / finger. The key word is possibly and like someone said unless you have super slo mo camera to review every pitch you have no idea if there is contact or not. So if you can't verify that contact is made then why have the rule if you're not going to enforce that there cannot be ANY contact at all? If you come to me at the beginning of the game and say "my pitcher has a splint on his finger but it won't touch the ball" I'm going to tell the umpire that it cannot be allowed and my batters find it as a distraction while they are hitting. Now if he won't follow the rules and not allow it I'm not letting my team take the field. This isn't about winning at all costs - it's about playing a fair game by following all the rules. I'm going to call the assignor myself before the game starts and tell him my thoughts on this and his umpire's judgement.
I'm sorry but this is not a contradictory statement and you're probably the only one who sees it this way. Don't pitch this kid until he's healthy.
First my post isn't contradictory at all and I'm really not sure how you can say it is. I'm bringing it to the umpire's attention a rule is being broken. Like Jimmy said - your assignor is an idiot for saying that he can pitch. You have two well respected members who are umpires say that they would not allow this to take place. Therefore following the rules is not "winning at all costs". In fact it's the things we need to be teaching when it comes to developing these kids into young men with character. I'm not saying that you're not doing this but to follow the rules as they are laid out by the NFHS is not "winning at all costs".
I'm all about developing talent and players because it's the right thing to do for these kids. Nobody cares what their JV record is as long as they are developing. Winning takes care of itself when you focus on doing things correctly over and over. This includes following the rules which is one of the most important messages we can teach these kids.
quote:- The doctor is aware he is a pitcher and gave him the clearance.
You know what they call the person who finishes last in medical school? That's right - doctor. I've been around the game long enough and hurt enough that I've come across some "doctors" who don't know their rear end from a stethescope. I've also seen parents fake doctor notes in order for their kids to play. Now I know nothing about the doctor in this case nor do I know the parents. I'm going to take your word that everything is on the up and up.
But this brings me to my next point
quote:- I'm for giving him time to recover, he and HIS DAD are the ones overly eager to put him back on the mound.
Sometimes you have to be the one who protects the kids from their own parents. I've seen so many parents over the years who think they have the next MLB draft pick who throws 80 MPH. They push and push and push no matter what and guess who gets hurt? The kid does. This is where you step up and dictate your lineup in order to develop and protect players. If a parent gets ticked off over it they have two choices - get over it or take their son and go somewhere else. You don't owe the parents anything except a fair chance and to protect their kids.
quote:- The kid is about 6'3" and has giant hands, so there would only possibly be contact on change.
This changes nothing because it's still against the rules to have anything on the hand / finger. The key word is possibly and like someone said unless you have super slo mo camera to review every pitch you have no idea if there is contact or not. So if you can't verify that contact is made then why have the rule if you're not going to enforce that there cannot be ANY contact at all? If you come to me at the beginning of the game and say "my pitcher has a splint on his finger but it won't touch the ball" I'm going to tell the umpire that it cannot be allowed and my batters find it as a distraction while they are hitting. Now if he won't follow the rules and not allow it I'm not letting my team take the field. This isn't about winning at all costs - it's about playing a fair game by following all the rules. I'm going to call the assignor myself before the game starts and tell him my thoughts on this and his umpire's judgement.
I'm sorry but this is not a contradictory statement and you're probably the only one who sees it this way. Don't pitch this kid until he's healthy.
By the way when you're out on the main page for the forums with all the different categories make sure to scroll down to the skills section. The Coaches Forum is off the hook for knowledge. Just post something in there and sit back because you will get bombarded with so many things from some great coaches.
The Ask an Ump forum is awesome because those guys know the rules and can give you great reasons / examples as to why a rule is a certain way. The insight you can get from these guys is awesome.
You got the pitching, fielding and catchers forums for more specific information on those areas of the game. I will warn you to be a little wary of the hitting forum. That's where I got blasted many years ago and that's the one place I rarely go to. Some very knowledgable people but there is a true "my way or the highway" mentality in there. It can drive you nuts sometimes trying to just defend yourself.
Welcome to the site and stick around a while. I guarantee you will learn something.
The Ask an Ump forum is awesome because those guys know the rules and can give you great reasons / examples as to why a rule is a certain way. The insight you can get from these guys is awesome.
You got the pitching, fielding and catchers forums for more specific information on those areas of the game. I will warn you to be a little wary of the hitting forum. That's where I got blasted many years ago and that's the one place I rarely go to. Some very knowledgable people but there is a true "my way or the highway" mentality in there. It can drive you nuts sometimes trying to just defend yourself.
Welcome to the site and stick around a while. I guarantee you will learn something.
quote:- The doctor is aware he is a pitcher and gave him the clearance.
The doctor may be aware that he is a pitcher, but does the doctor know the first thing about baseball?
The doctors I work with don't. That's what an athletic trainer does. To me, I don't give a rats @$$ what doctor tells a kid they can play; I make that decision. That's MY job.
The school might not have a trainer.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
By the way when you're out on the main page for the forums with all the different categories make sure to scroll down to the skills section. The Coaches Forum is off the hook for knowledge. Just post something in there and sit back because you will get bombarded with so many things from some great coaches.
The Ask an Ump forum is awesome because those guys know the rules and can give you great reasons / examples as to why a rule is a certain way. The insight you can get from these guys is awesome.
You got the pitching, fielding and catchers forums for more specific information on those areas of the game. I will warn you to be a little wary of the hitting forum. That's where I got blasted many years ago and that's the one place I rarely go to. Some very knowledgable people but there is a true "my way or the highway" mentality in there. It can drive you nuts sometimes trying to just defend yourself.
Welcome to the site and stick around a while. I guarantee you will learn something.
It's your many posts like the ones on this thread that make it a very good thing for this site that you returned, Coach!
Thanks Prepster and I can honestly say I've gotten way more from this place than I have ever contributed. As for leaving for a little bit over the post in the hitting forum I was just being a big baby LOL.
Thanks for the additional info Coach2709. I joined so I could get an answer to my question in case my umps didn't get back to me in time, and was unaware of all the forums and helpful information on here. I'll have to look around some more.
When I posed my question I expected the rule to be as it is stated, and has been presented to me. I was pretty surprised when our rules interpreter gave me the go ahead. Apparently there are grey areas in the rule book. If it were all black and white there wouldn't be any need for a rules interpreter. I haven't been in this situation before and when I asked him if his was the final word, he told me "yes." With that in mind, I would assume that an opposing coach could argue all he wants, but that the ruling has been made and will be upheld (again, not having been in this situation before I don't know how that works (ah, the joys of bureaucracy)). As coaches it is our job to know the rules (oops)and make sure our players abide by them. It is the umpires job to interpret and uphold the rules. At the JV level I see all sorts of bad calls, often based on the way an ump interprets the rule. For example, just last week an umpire called obstruction on the opposing pitcher as he was sprinting to back up first base. No contact was made and my guy was out easily. Not only did the umpire grant him first base, but also awarded him second base. Naturally, the opposing coach argued the call, and was unsuccessful. I couldn't believe the call, but wasn't going to argue against it because it worked in my favor. I don't know many coaches, even the most morally sound ones, that would tell an umpire he got the call wrong when it works out in his favor. I liken this "pinky" situation to that. Doctor notes (we do have an athletic trainer and she is fine with accepting notes from doctors as clearance to play), overbearing parents and eager players aside, if a top ranking official in my district interprets a rule in my favor I'm not going to question it. Again, I haven't pitched him in a game yet (he has thrown some short bullpens and hasn't complained of pain in the finger (then again, why would he, he wants to compete)) and don't know if I will. If I do, it will be short relief work. I'll just have to wait and see what happens if a coach appeals. Thanks again for the feedback and advice.
When I posed my question I expected the rule to be as it is stated, and has been presented to me. I was pretty surprised when our rules interpreter gave me the go ahead. Apparently there are grey areas in the rule book. If it were all black and white there wouldn't be any need for a rules interpreter. I haven't been in this situation before and when I asked him if his was the final word, he told me "yes." With that in mind, I would assume that an opposing coach could argue all he wants, but that the ruling has been made and will be upheld (again, not having been in this situation before I don't know how that works (ah, the joys of bureaucracy)). As coaches it is our job to know the rules (oops)and make sure our players abide by them. It is the umpires job to interpret and uphold the rules. At the JV level I see all sorts of bad calls, often based on the way an ump interprets the rule. For example, just last week an umpire called obstruction on the opposing pitcher as he was sprinting to back up first base. No contact was made and my guy was out easily. Not only did the umpire grant him first base, but also awarded him second base. Naturally, the opposing coach argued the call, and was unsuccessful. I couldn't believe the call, but wasn't going to argue against it because it worked in my favor. I don't know many coaches, even the most morally sound ones, that would tell an umpire he got the call wrong when it works out in his favor. I liken this "pinky" situation to that. Doctor notes (we do have an athletic trainer and she is fine with accepting notes from doctors as clearance to play), overbearing parents and eager players aside, if a top ranking official in my district interprets a rule in my favor I'm not going to question it. Again, I haven't pitched him in a game yet (he has thrown some short bullpens and hasn't complained of pain in the finger (then again, why would he, he wants to compete)) and don't know if I will. If I do, it will be short relief work. I'll just have to wait and see what happens if a coach appeals. Thanks again for the feedback and advice.
One of the things I like about this site is that often questions come up and they force me into the rule book....or a bulletin will come out reinforcing the rulings given here....
From the 2012 PIAA spring bulletin #2...
Excessive or distracting flaps on shoes are not allowed. Wearing any items on the hands, wrists or arms that may be distracting to the batter are not allowed.
A cast or bandage may be used on the non-pitching hand if it is not white in color or distracting. A bandage or any other distracting item is not allowed on the pitching hand or fingers. (6-2-
1g)
From the 2012 PIAA spring bulletin #2...
Excessive or distracting flaps on shoes are not allowed. Wearing any items on the hands, wrists or arms that may be distracting to the batter are not allowed.
A cast or bandage may be used on the non-pitching hand if it is not white in color or distracting. A bandage or any other distracting item is not allowed on the pitching hand or fingers. (6-2-
1g)
Unless you're Curt Schilling pitching in the world series, it does not worth it at all to use an injured pitcher. The pitcher and his dad may thank you later a couple years down the road for protecting his arms/hands.
The famous bloody sock:
http://gonewengland.about.com/...aabaseballhall_8.htm
The famous bloody sock:
http://gonewengland.about.com/...aabaseballhall_8.htm