It doesn't seem like a coach always has the best interest of his players in mind.
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He didn’t pitch this past summer or fall. Could a 2 weeks stretch really cause the injury, or is that just baseball as Abel says?
If a pitcher is still willing to go there I guess it is ok....college coaches abusing pitchers and players in general isn’t new nor does anybody of relevance care.
I totally agree the coach should be held accountable but he won’t be. Just kick the kid to the side and move forward...but hey he had 25% scholarship.
:95 pitches in a win over Mississippi State on Saturday, June 23 to reach the CWS finals against Arkansas
– 23 pitches during an inning of relief against Arkansas on Wednesday, June 27 to keep it a 1-run game
– 129 pitches in shutout win over Arkansas on Thursday, June 28
He also threw 58 pitches in 4 innings of relief, picking up a win over Washington on June 18. All told, he pitched 21 innings and threw 305 pitches over four appearances at the College World Series, all in an 11-day span. That’s simply overuse".
I don't get the overuse angle...
We don't know if this caused TJ ( most likely ucl tears usually develope over months and not a couple weeks) but still this is bad.
Isn't oregon state one of the top programs in the nation? I can understand if a small program unexpectedly making it far in tournament riding their ace because they don't have enough good arms but shouldn't have a program like OS have enough pitching depth to avoid that?
19coach posted::95 pitches in a win over Mississippi State on Saturday, June 23 to reach the CWS finals against Arkansas
– 23 pitches during an inning of relief against Arkansas on Wednesday, June 27 to keep it a 1-run game
– 129 pitches in shutout win over Arkansas on Thursday, June 28He also threw 58 pitches in 4 innings of relief, picking up a win over Washington on June 18. All told, he pitched 21 innings and threw 305 pitches over four appearances at the College World Series, all in an 11-day span. That’s simply overuse".
I don't get the overuse angle...
That's very heavy use, for sure. Lots of high stress pitches to win the CWS I don't think we are far from marker-less bio mechanical measurements or wearable technology that will measure pitching stress and compare it to a baseline. Doesn't mean a coach wouldn't throw a kid a lot, or that the kid would care.
I see it coming soon. College will also have pitchsmart rules. He would not have been able to pitch any of those outings under pitchsmart rules.
PitchingFan posted:I see it coming soon. College will also have pitchsmart rules. He would not have been able to pitch any of those outings under pitchsmart rules.
And they should. A coach shouldn't have the power to ruin a kid's career before it starts.
PitchingFan posted:I see it coming soon. College will also have pitchsmart rules. He would not have been able to pitch any of those outings under pitchsmart rules.
Everything, other than the 129 pitch outing, that was done would be within the rules here in CT, and I thought we had some of the more stringent pitcher rest rules around. The 23 pitch outing on the 27th would not make him ineligible on the 28th, as we have no rest required at 20 pitches (allowed to finish the last batter, thus can go beyond 20).
Tough spot, but with some minor tweaks (90 instead of 95, 20 instead of 23) this all would've been perfectly legal for even HS.
Is it a heavy workload? Yes. Is it too much? Probably. Did it cause TJ? Can't say
Before we put all the blame on the coach, he has a relationship with his players. He has to trust them when they say they're good to go the same way they have to trust him not to go overboard. Maybe the kid felt fine. Maybe he was sore, but thought he could push thru it to win a national championship. I know if mine were in the same situation, he would probably be out on the mound as well. Don't forget this isn't a Central High vs North High non conference HS game. You're talking Arkansas, MS State and the CWS. This is what the kids live for
That wouldn't work here. Over 85 is 4 days of rest. He wouldn't have been able to pitch Wednesday, and Thursday would have been a 110 max. The kids will almost always say they want to stay, that's why its the coaches job to say no.
In SC.
95 pitches is 5 days rest so no throw on Wednesday. Total of 110 in any given day so not 129.
I'm not sure overuse over 11 days and no way to tell it caused TJ if it had been spread out more. A high school kid at most places can throw 220 in 10 days. A lot of pitches over a short period of time. The fact that he threw the 129 at the end is better than if he had thrown that at the beginning. But the 152 pitches in two days was crazy too many. If there is any one thing that needs to change, it has to be the number of pitches in a day and the number of pitches in the CWS.
Not saying I agree or disagree, but how many would do the same thing to win an NCAA Championship?
Pitching once per week is typical college starter work. If he did this all season and pitched extra during the CWS it probably wasn’t the reason for needing TJ surgery.
You would have to look back on his workload all the way back in time. He also may have hit the velocity late in high school that placed enough pressure on his arm to make him a ticking time bomb.
No doubt that his workload likely spiked. He also probably knew there were some risk involved and probably still thinks it was worth it. Not saying it should've been allowed to happen.
#1 cause for TJ surgery is overuse. Throwing thru pain, tightness, and fatigue are going to increase the likelihood of UCL tear. And if you think for one moment, that as frosh pitcher under Murphy, he was going to say, "my arm is just not feeling it today Coach" or "I need a couple of days because my arm is tired," you are fooling yourself and have not had a good conversation with a competitive P5 pitcher. Yeah, he probably does feel like it was worth it but that is because there is no crystal ball for his future. If there was and it showed him winning an MLB pennant and/or making millions of dollars pitching in the Big's, then I am betting he would second guess weather or not it was worth it.
Do we really know what the #1 cause of Tommy John is? I think it's easy and maybe lazy to just point to overuse. A huge part of the equation to overuse is how prepared pitchers are for the workload. Almost no pitching coach would say 50 pitches is too much for a starter, but for many, it absolutely could be (especially early in the season).
And I wouldn't expect many pitchers to ever say they don't want the ball. I didn't say I agreed with this. Just talking about his point of view. I had Tommy John. There are certain things that I'd do again even knowing they could lead to surgery.
He only threw 81.1 innings in 2018 so he threw 1/4 of his innings in that 11 day period. Again, I agree we would want to think we would not do it but a national championship is a big deal and when the kid wants the ball many of us would do the same in the moment. I'm also willing to believe that if my son had a chance to win a national championship next year as a freshman he would want the ball. i also know that if he did what the kid at Oregon State did and then had TJ Surgery I would be able to point back to a lot of things in his past that could have just as easily caused it.
My son does not and will not sacrifice his body and or future until he is being paid to play... not for the College World Series not for anyone. Player is to blame. Coach is paid to win.
bacdorslider posted:My son does not and will not sacrifice his body and or future until he is being paid to play... not for the College World Series not for anyone. Player is to blame. Coach is paid to win.
I’m with you. I think we are the only kid on our hs team with a pitch limit and it’s not 110. His doctor said, when you throw hard, you have s certain number of pitches...it’s up to you where you want to throw them.