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:95 pitches in a win over Mississippi State on Saturday, June 23 to reach the CWS finals against Arkansas
– 23 pitches during an inning of relief against Arkansas on Wednesday, June 27 to keep it a 1-run game
– 129 pitches in shutout win over Arkansas on Thursday, June 28

He also threw 58 pitches in 4 innings of relief, picking up a win over Washington on June 18. All told, he pitched 21 innings and threw 305 pitches over four appearances at the College World Series, all in an 11-day span. That’s simply overuse".

 

I don't get the overuse angle... 

We don't know if this caused TJ ( most likely ucl tears usually develope over months and not a couple weeks) but still this is bad.

 

Isn't oregon state one of the top programs in the nation? I can understand if a small program unexpectedly making it far in tournament riding their ace because they don't have enough good arms but shouldn't have a program like OS have enough pitching depth to avoid that?

19coach posted:

:95 pitches in a win over Mississippi State on Saturday, June 23 to reach the CWS finals against Arkansas
– 23 pitches during an inning of relief against Arkansas on Wednesday, June 27 to keep it a 1-run game
– 129 pitches in shutout win over Arkansas on Thursday, June 28

He also threw 58 pitches in 4 innings of relief, picking up a win over Washington on June 18. All told, he pitched 21 innings and threw 305 pitches over four appearances at the College World Series, all in an 11-day span. That’s simply overuse".

 

I don't get the overuse angle... 

That's very heavy use, for sure.  Lots of high stress pitches to win the CWS  I don't think we are far from marker-less bio mechanical  measurements or wearable technology that will measure pitching stress and compare it to a baseline.  Doesn't mean a coach wouldn't throw a kid a lot, or that the kid would care.

PitchingFan posted:

I see it coming soon.  College will also have pitchsmart rules.  He would not have been able to pitch any of those outings under pitchsmart rules. 

Everything, other than the 129 pitch outing, that was done would be within the rules here in CT, and I thought we had some of the more stringent pitcher rest rules around.  The 23 pitch outing on the 27th would not make him ineligible on the 28th, as we have no rest required at 20 pitches (allowed to finish the last batter, thus can go beyond 20).

Tough spot, but with some minor tweaks (90 instead of 95, 20 instead of 23) this all would've been perfectly legal for even HS.

Is it a heavy workload? Yes. Is it too much? Probably. Did it cause TJ? Can't say 

Before we put all the blame on the coach, he has a relationship with his players. He has to trust them when they say they're good to go the same way they have to trust him not to go overboard. Maybe the kid felt fine. Maybe he was sore, but thought he could push thru it to win a national championship. I know if mine were in the same situation, he would probably be out on the mound as well. Don't forget this isn't a Central High vs North High non conference HS game. You're talking Arkansas, MS State and the CWS. This is what the kids live for

In SC.

95 pitches is 5 days rest so no throw on Wednesday.  Total of 110 in any given day so not 129. 

I'm not sure overuse over 11 days and no way to tell it caused TJ if it had been spread out more.  A high school kid at most places can throw 220 in 10 days.   A lot of pitches over a short period of time.  The fact that he threw the 129 at the end is better than if he had thrown that at the beginning.  But the 152 pitches in two days was crazy too many.  If there is any one thing that needs to change, it has to be the number of pitches in a day and the number of pitches in the CWS.

 

Pitching once per week is typical college starter work. If he did this all season and pitched extra during the CWS it probably wasn’t the reason for needing TJ surgery. 

You would have to look back on his workload all the way back in time. He also may have hit the velocity late in high school that placed enough pressure on his arm to make him a ticking time bomb. 

#1 cause for TJ surgery is overuse. Throwing thru pain, tightness, and fatigue are going to increase the likelihood of UCL tear. And if you think for one moment, that as frosh pitcher under Murphy, he was going to say, "my arm is just not feeling it today Coach" or "I need a couple of days because my arm is tired," you are fooling yourself and have not had a good conversation with a competitive P5 pitcher. Yeah, he probably does feel like it was worth it but that is because there is no crystal ball for his future. If there was and it showed him winning an MLB pennant and/or making millions of dollars pitching in the Big's, then I am betting he would second guess weather or not it was worth it.

Do we really know what the #1 cause of Tommy John is? I think it's easy and maybe lazy to just point to overuse. A huge part of the equation to overuse is how prepared pitchers are for the workload. Almost no pitching coach would say 50 pitches is too much for a starter, but for many, it absolutely could be (especially early in the season). 

And I wouldn't expect many pitchers to ever say they don't want the ball. I didn't say I agreed with this.  Just talking about his point of view. I had Tommy John.  There are certain things that I'd do again even knowing they could lead to surgery.  

 

He only threw 81.1 innings in 2018 so he threw 1/4 of his innings in that 11 day period.  Again, I agree we would want to think we would not do it but a national championship is a big deal and when the kid wants the ball many of us would do the same in the moment.  I'm also willing to believe that if my son had a chance to win a national championship next year as a freshman he would want the ball.  i also know that if he did what the kid at Oregon State did and then had TJ Surgery I would be able to point back to a lot of things in his past that could have just as easily caused it.

bacdorslider posted:

My son does not and will not sacrifice his body and or future until he is being paid to play... not for the College World Series not for anyone. Player is to blame.  Coach is paid to win. 

I’m with you. I think we are the only kid on our hs team with a pitch limit and it’s not 110.  His doctor said, when you throw hard, you have s certain number of pitches...it’s up to you where you want to throw them.

At some point the technology will catch up and then there will be better data on what the limit is before a pitcher is going to need TJ.  It seems number of pitches thrown over a short period of time is the best indicator we have now, so the rules requiring rest that have been implemented in most youth baseball should be coming to college baseball before too long. 

And just like youth coaches had to adjust, college coaches need to expand the number of pitchers they rely on.  Really, there is no excuse why with most college rosters having 15-17 pitchers that coaches don't dig deeper into their roster to spread out the pitches and innings during the regular season.  If the NCAA truly cares, they should require that all 35 man rosters be active for home series and then when games turn into blowouts either way, go down further on the depth chart and have other kids take on some pitches and innings.  Save your horses for the CWS and maybe they can survive increased use during that period if better rested during the season.

bacdorslider posted:

My son does not and will not sacrifice his body and or future until he is being paid to play... not for the College World Series not for anyone. Player is to blame.  Coach is paid to win. 

The player is to blame?  Part of the coach's responsibility is to be the adult in the dugout and make the tough decisions.  The players are competitors, they are going to want the ball every chance they get.  Someone has to be the grown up and tell them no.  That's the head coach's job. 

Backstop22 posted:

At some point the technology will catch up and then there will be better data on what the limit is before a pitcher is going to need TJ.  It seems number of pitches thrown over a short period of time is the best indicator we have now, so the rules requiring rest that have been implemented in most youth baseball should be coming to college baseball before too long. 

And just like youth coaches had to adjust, college coaches need to expand the number of pitchers they rely on.  Really, there is no excuse why with most college rosters having 15-17 pitchers that coaches don't dig deeper into their roster to spread out the pitches and innings during the regular season.  If the NCAA truly cares, they should require that all 35 man rosters be active for home series and then when games turn into blowouts either way, go down further on the depth chart and have other kids take on some pitches and innings.  Save your horses for the CWS and maybe they can survive increased use during that period if better rested during the season.

bolded, the NCAA doesn't care at all, neither do the coaches. You are tossed onto the scrap heap the second you can't do it anymore regardless of anything. Please get over the "coaches care" crap, they don't, they don't care at D1, D2 or D3. You need to wrap your brain around that before anything else. 

PABaseball posted:

Tough spot, but with some minor tweaks (90 instead of 95, 20 instead of 23) this all would've been perfectly legal for even HS.

Is it a heavy workload? Yes. Is it too much? Probably. Did it cause TJ? Can't say 

Before we put all the blame on the coach, he has a relationship with his players. He has to trust them when they say they're good to go the same way they have to trust him not to go overboard. Maybe the kid felt fine. Maybe he was sore, but thought he could push thru it to win a national championship. I know if mine were in the same situation, he would probably be out on the mound as well. Don't forget this isn't a Central High vs North High non conference HS game. You're talking Arkansas, MS State and the CWS. This is what the kids live for

Most competitive kids would take the rock just as yours would.  No matter how they felt.  This is precisely why the players' judgement can not be trusted in these situations.  Just as they've implemented concussion protocols in football, it's time to protect baseball players from over zealous or careless coaching staffs.

d-mac posted:
bacdorslider posted:

My son does not and will not sacrifice his body and or future until he is being paid to play... not for the College World Series not for anyone. Player is to blame.  Coach is paid to win. 

The player is to blame?  Part of the coach's responsibility is to be the adult in the dugout and make the tough decisions.  The players are competitors, they are going to want the ball every chance they get.  Someone has to be the grown up and tell them no.  That's the head coach's job. 

Well, I can agree they are both to blame,  but the player has to be responsible for his own arm . The coach Should know better, but obviously they do not, so the player has to take care of himself. 

Part of the due diligence of the recruiting process is looking at the reputation of how programs use, or abuse pitchers. There are winning coaches with reputations for burning out pitchers.

I talked with a poster on this board who told their son, “You’re not pitching there.” It was a ranked program. The kid was a legit prospect (high draft pick out of college). The program’s head coach had a bad rep with pitchers. 

Last edited by RJM

So I will ask the question again.  How does a freshman college player tell a coach he refuses to pitch in the CWS Championship game?  Do you go to the coach in the fifth inning and say I'm done I have a pitch count and I have exceeded it.   (If you are not smart enough to pull me I will pull myself.)  Any kid who does this will be sent packing I would say. 

d-mac posted:
bacdorslider posted:

My son does not and will not sacrifice his body and or future until he is being paid to play... not for the College World Series not for anyone. Player is to blame.  Coach is paid to win. 

The player is to blame?  Part of the coach's responsibility is to be the adult in the dugout and make the tough decisions.  The players are competitors, they are going to want the ball every chance they get.  Someone has to be the grown up and tell them no.  That's the head coach's job. 

It's like saying - Don't go to the bad part of town at 2am, bad things happen. 

People shouldn't rob you, but you shouldn't have been in the bad part of town at 2am either. Is it the victim's fault? Not entirely. Could it have been avoided? Probably. 

Same thing here and don't forget that these kids have parents. They talk to them after each start, ask how they're feeling and what's next. There is more than one person at fault here. 

I get the concerns...and the numbers look bad....BUT I can guarantee you that most any kid in that situation would have wanted to do it....and it would take one really, really good guy of a coach to tell the kid no.  I don't know the coach or the kid...so I won't comment any further....but I can guarantee you my son would have done the exact same thing if he was in that situation.  You grow up wanting to be in that position....I would think there are an awful lot of kids who would have done it if they had the chance

Buckeye 2015, I totally agree that most kids would've wanted to do the same thing. My son is a competitor and never wants to hand over the ball in a close game. That said, the coach needs to be the adult in the room. As i said in my last post, the most criminal thing about how Abel was used was the fact that he hadn't even pitched in a game in over two months. Throwing 95 pitches or 120+ shouldn't have even been on the table, much less doing both in such a short span, with relief appearances mixed in. I get that college coaches are paid to win games, and they will do what it takes to achieve that. But potentially costing a promising young pitcher his future in order to hang a banner should weigh heavy on a coach's conscience.

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