Frustration setting in

Hey Meads,

Not enough background for anyone to do much but speculate but I'll throw out a few things to consider...

  You have mostly referred to your son as a RHP.  He is leading the team in IP, so it can't be all that bad.  Those coaches are the ones that make the decision who throws.

Also, plenty of coaches for this age group and up are not necessarily rah-rah, at-a-boy praise types.  Sometimes, if a coach knows a kid can take it, he may throw out more critical feedback in effort to try to get the most out of a player.  Don't know if that applies here.  The only thing you said (or implied) that might be of particular concern is if the coach is not engaged in giving son direction with regard to his pursuit of playing at the next level.  Usually, a travel team is formed at least in part to advance that pursuit.  Again, we don't know enough background.  Also don't know what discussions have taken place or how close your son is to being ready.  Is he already being recruited? 

As far as the coaches talking about the other pitcher, if he is going to be the #1 pitcher in the state, OF COURSE they are going to be talking about him a lot.  If that speculation is true, it really doesn't matter if his numbers over a short 9+ innings sample aren't great.  They are still gonna be excited to have him and they're gonna talk.  You should be happy he's on the team... it could mean there will be more RC's hanging around that will happen to see your kid throw.

As far as finding a new team, gather advice, do research on other options and make a level-headed decision.  Do keep in mind that you said his teammates are great.

The rest of the stuff, you really need to let go.  The player will succeed, earn playing time, advance to the next level, etc., based on his skill set, work ethic and character... but mostly skill set.   The fact that another player's dad twisted a few stats against him along the way is going to be a complete nothingburger in the long run.  Seriously.  LET IT GO.  You are robbing yourself of really enjoying the ride and you only get one go-around.  In fact, if that's how you are going to use your scorekeeping info, you may want to give serious consideration to retiring your pencil  

Re: twisted a few stats against him  

Maybe the player hit a single and went to second on a throw to another base.

Maybe the second “single” bounced right over a fielder’s glove.

Maybe a couple of the “stolen bases” were wild pitches or passed balls. 

Sometimes a player has better stats than another player because they don’t draw the tough assignments. 

@cabbagedad posted:

Hey Meads,

Not enough background for anyone to do much but speculate but I'll throw out a few things to consider...

  You have mostly referred to your son as a RHP.  He is leading the team in IP, so it can't be all that bad.  Those coaches are the ones that make the decision who throws.

Also, plenty of coaches for this age group and up are not necessarily rah-rah, at-a-boy praise types.  Sometimes, if a coach knows a kid can take it, he may throw out more critical feedback in effort to try to get the most out of a player.  Don't know if that applies here.  The only thing you said (or implied) that might be of particular concern is if the coach is not engaged in giving son direction with regard to his pursuit of playing at the next level.  Usually, a travel team is formed at least in part to advance that pursuit.  Again, we don't know enough background.  Also don't know what discussions have taken place or how close your son is to being ready.  Is he already being recruited? 

As far as the coaches talking about the other pitcher, if he is going to be the #1 pitcher in the state, OF COURSE they are going to be talking about him a lot.  If that speculation is true, it really doesn't matter if his numbers over a short 9+ innings sample aren't great.  They are still gonna be excited to have him and they're gonna talk.  You should be happy he's on the team... it could mean there will be more RC's hanging around that will happen to see your kid throw.

As far as finding a new team, gather advice, do research on other options and make a level-headed decision.  Do keep in mind that you said his teammates are great.

The rest of the stuff, you really need to let go.  The player will succeed, earn playing time, advance to the next level, etc., based on his skill set, work ethic and character... but mostly skill set.   The fact that another player's dad twisted a few stats against him along the way is going to be a complete nothingburger in the long run.  Seriously.  LET IT GO.  You are robbing yourself of really enjoying the ride and you only get one go-around.  In fact, if that's how you are going to use your scorekeeping info, you may want to give serious consideration to retiring your pencil  

Thank you, I can let it go.

I do a scorekeeping book to keep myself out of trouble   yelling, cheering and chit chatting with the other parents. Plus son and I go over things together.

His STATS are important to him- it tells him what he needs to work on, keep doing or change it up. For the most part, my stats and game changer line up most of the time. Sometimes he needs to compare himself to the others to gage where he is at.

As far as this other pitcher is concerned, we are glad that he is on the team, but to overhear the coaches talk about him rather than my son or the other great pitcher we have; I must say it kind of ticked me off. 2 weekends ago we played a 17U/18U team and beat them (my son pitched the whole game and struck out 5, allowed 3 hits and gave up only 1 run) EVERYONE including the other team and umpires congratulated him on his pitching except his coach- my son doesn't need the accolades but he does need to hear something good from the head coach, even a high 5 would have been sufficient, but when nothing is said, my son feels unappreciated and even more so when they praise this other one.

@RJM posted:

Re: twisted a few stats against him  

Maybe the player hit a single and went to second on a throw to another base.

Maybe the second “single” bounced right over a fielder’s glove.

Maybe a couple of the “stolen bases” were wild pitches or passed balls. 

Sometimes a player has better stats than another player because they don’t draw the tough assignments. 

Nope, just a straight shot to the Centerfield fence.

On the stolen bases, yes one was a passed ball but I thought those still counted as stolen bases...

I get the better stats/ not tough assignments- luckily my son, has always pitched against worthy opponents. He likes having the harder challenge.

On recruiting, have your son get in front of college HC/RC and get some feedback from them.  Your son should choose some college baseball camps with schools he wants to attend and that are a good fit academically and for baseball.   He will get an idea of where and if playing college is an option. 

Step back.   Put the Daddy stats to the side.   Look at the big picture.   Is this working or not working for your son.   If so, why?  If not, why?  Take a logical view of where your son is,and where he needs to be in 1.5 years.   Is this the program that can give him the opportunity to get there if he continues to work hard?

Understand you and your son's frustration.   At 16U your roles should be mostly established on a high school, Legion, or travel team.   If you are going to look at this through the frustration lens you'll probably get more frustrated.   I think you have to look at the bigger picture as if it were a job.   I think you have to have these three things to really make it work:

1) Am I happy?  Do I really like playing for this team? 

2) Is he being developed?   Am I learning something that is going to take me to the next level.   Is my coach helping my skills and giving me the opportunity to grow?

3) Valued.  Is he better off somewhere else?   Am I getting value for my money?  If you are paying to play on this team and you aren't satisfied with their effort/approach to developing your son then I think you need to meet with the travel coach to talk this through in a positive way.   I had a very frank conversation with my son's travel coach when he was 14 years old.   Best baseball conversation I ever had with that coach, and he became a HUGE advocate for my son 3 years later when we were making college decisions.

Good luck!

What is your son's fastball velo?  If it isn't in the high 80s right now, then he most likely won't be recruited until next summer.  Maybe the other kid is at 90 already?

When my son was 16U, there were parents who were upset that the coach wasn't doing more about recruiting.  Their kids were throwing in the low 80s, having success, or were hitting really well.  Our coach didn't ever explain to anyone that recruiting is not just about performance, it is about measurables first and then performance against strong competition, because college coaches have to know that you can play at the next level, not just the level you're at.  The kid who committed to a P5 after that summer couldn't find the strike zone to save his life, and lost us several games, but he was a hard-throwing LHP. 

I was clueless about recruiting, so I wasn't upset.  The next summer (rising senior), the head of our organization at some point said to me, "Parent expectations are out of whack, I've got 20 rhp throwing 85 who want to play somewhere." I wish he had told everyone that the previous year.

Not offering praise:  I agree that some do and some don't.  Also agree that the coach is showing what he thinks of your son by the playing time.  We had coaches (on travel teams) who didn't play some players much at all, without explanation - now those were what I call bad coaches. 

Mead, if he is hoping to get recruited, at 17 he will want a travel coach who will help him with that.  I would start now looking for a team with a focus on playing college ball.  The college coaches looking at your son will talk to his coaches.  Some will talk to your son because his coaches recommend him.  You want to find a travel coach who believes your son is a college prospect. 

You might also look for a trusted third party to objectively evaluate your son's potential as a college prospect.  Perhaps an area pitching instructor or work-out facility?  You don't want someone who will blow smoke.  You need an honest assessment of where he is.  We did this for my son just before his junior year of high school to make sure college ball wasn't just a pipe dream and he was targeting colleges that were a good fit.

Meanwhile, at 16, your son is a 2022, right?  I agree with JABMK.  Unless he is not ready, it is time for your son to start looking for opportunities to get in front of some college coaches and on their follow lists.  Not at local tournaments, but at a showcase or a few camps, perhaps in late summer or fall.  If you can get to one and can afford it, he should consider going to an event that will verify and put up his measurables, such as PBR, PG, Showball, HeadFirst, etc.  There may be other, more affordable options, but you want something college coaches have access to and can trust. 

Just my .02. 

Also, I agree with cabbagedad that you need to flush your concerns about game stats.  By all means, keep your own stats so you and your son can see how he's doing.  I would not compare him to other players on the team, though.  Focus on his performance and what he can work on.  Focus on what you can control, not what you can't.  I know it's hard.  I've felt many of the same things you're describing at various times, too.  We probably all have.  But those are not things worth stewing about.

ETA: My son is a position player, not a pitcher, so take this with a grain of salt, but I would not get overly obsessed with how fast his fastball is.  From what I'm seeing, there are plenty of D3 schools who recruit pitchers throwing in the low to mid 80s if they can locate and there are D1s who recruit kids throwing in the high 80s, especially if the college coaches think he projects to throw harder later.

My kid is in a similar situation with his coach where he feels undervalued.  However, he still gets his ABs in, he still gets his time in the field, and he still mostly enjoys his teammates.  So, I ask him what his problem is, and he just seems to want everybody to like him (just the way he is).  Frankly, I tell him that he needs to grow a pair and get over it. 

Another thing to note is that my kid is a little bit OCD.  That aspect helps him in baseball and academics as he will work on things tirelessly to improve them. However, in these situations, he needs to learn to control what he can control. 

Get objective feedback for sanity check on your sons skills.  Never wait for someone else to do your marketing.  Any coach willing to pick up the phone on behalf of your son is value added to the recruiting process.  I've seen plenty of avg kids which marketed themselves well land at a D3.  Clearly there has to be some skill for the appropriate level of college play. 

Also, think about the next 40 years...package him as a student athlete...stay focused on the grades and ACT prep...and keep up with the strength and speed programs...he's young...lots of time.

Getting caught up with another scorekeeper can be very frustrating... go stand along the fence, get away from behind the plate.  You'll have a better experience.

@LuckyCat posted:

ETA: My son is a position player, not a pitcher, so take this with a grain of salt, but I would not get overly obsessed with how fast his fastball is.  From what I'm seeing, there are plenty of D3 schools who recruit pitchers throwing in the low to mid 80s if they can locate and there are D1s who recruit kids throwing in the high 80s, especially if the college coaches think he projects to throw harder later.

I agree with this.  However, D3 schools recruit the summer after junior year.  So do low D1s.  So, if that's where he's headed, no need to worry about recruiting right now, other than doing the best he can do against the best possible competition, and learning everything he can.  That was my point about velo, and about my son's team's experience.  All those kids ended up committing to D2 and D3 schools, in fall of senior year.

Agree, if the other kid throws hard, which is my assumption if he is going to be #1in the state, and yours doesn’t but gets outs...the cold hard truth is that the other kid will be recruited.  Getting outs and throwing 82 is great for wins, but college coaches don’t care.

There was a poster here in the past whose son was all conference in a challenging California high school conference. The kid was a low 80’s puss thrower with great command and off speed stuff. The guy had his shorts in a bunch for years his kid wasn’t scouted by MLB or recruited by D1’s. 

Aside from a low 80’s fastball the kid had bad grades. There were character traits that could only be overcome with a 90+ fastball. The kid walked on at a JuCo and got three innings. Then he was tossed off the team and out of school for dealing. 

“Honest coach. I was holding it (a pound of pot) for a teammate. I didn’t know what it was.”

@anotherparent posted:

I agree with this.  However, D3 schools recruit the summer after junior year.  So do low D1s.  So, if that's where he's headed, no need to worry about recruiting right now, other than doing the best he can do against the best possible competition, and learning everything he can.  That was my point about velo, and about my son's team's experience.  All those kids ended up committing to D2 and D3 schools, in fall of senior year.

I agree, but have also noticed that with D3 and low D1, pitchers and catchers start getting attention earlier than position players, so not a bad idea to get on their radar by this fall if he is ready.  Pick a couple of camps at schools he likes and that are an academic fit and see what happens.  Or, if he has some video, send a few emails to those schools and include a link to the video.  D1s can respond to email and look at video during the dead period and, quite frankly, I don't think they have much else to do right now.  If your son has recruitable measurables, it cannot hurt to start reaching out or, if it is in your budget, to attend a showcase this fall. 

Fenwaysouth- my son loves his teammates but no he is not being developed and this season he doesn’t feel valued from the coaches- teammates and parents-yes. But we have to look at the big picture.

anotherparent- FB is mid to low 80’s however my son can throw FB, Curves, and Sliders. The other kid (#1 🙄) FB only and mostly low 80s plus he can’t go more than 3 innings or 40 pitches because his arm gives out.

LuckyCat- we are looking at other teams that are interested in developing players and interested in helping them find the right schools. My son has done PBR and a couple of D1 camps. He will be doing a showcase later this summer for D1-D3 and NAIA schools. He is contacting colleges. He feels he is more suited for a D3 (right now). He does have an NCSA account as well.

GOV- he has had some great feedback from other coaches and  umpires at games. At the showcases the feedback is so so. His pitching coach is a minor leaguer and also a player development coach for a D1 school and he gives my son honest feedback from time to time plus he is a really good mentor.

baseballhs-“ the other kid” is no where near a #1 in the state. Honestly I have seen way better. Plus he has yet to perform on the mound. Is he good?  yes. But he doesn’t put in the work or the arm care. I wouldn’t even say he is top 100 in the State. Now, for our area and schools he would definitely be a starter for JV, like my son would be. But I think (and my son has proven it already) that he could/would have been a back up for Varsity if the HS season had taken place. Next year will tell us more.

Overall, our team is doing tournaments on the weekends where college coaches “potentially could be there”. My son did get an email from a D3 coach who caught a video and wanted more info and more footage. So that was encouraging. 
My son looks at his pitching like a job he wants to succeed and do well. He works on the mental aspect and the physical. He takes his arm care seriously and he has goals. So we are looking down the road towards the future. Will he be happy playing for a team where he isn’t the starter? Yes, because he would see that as a challenge and work even harder to earn that position. This current team, we have 3 starters and 6 back up throwers but he is treated like he is nothing. And that’s where the frustration comes in at. When the other team coach comes to shake my sons hand after a job well done and his coach can’t even say nice job or thanks for doing your job, well, that says a lot too.

thank you all for the advice and wise words. The advice has been heard and will be applied. Wishing your kids success also.

Let me begin with the fact that these four guys who PBR has ranked as top pitchers for 2022 class in Kentucky are definitely better than what you are describing and I'm assuming the kid you are talking about is one of these. 

Paducah Tilghman LHP Justin West, another early Louisville commit, occupies the No. 2 spot. The 6-foot-3, 160 pound lefty is just scratching the surface of how good he will be as he fills in his frame. West can really pitch, showing pinpoint command of his fastball/curveball mix. The hand speed on his curveball that produces 2300-2400 RPM spin rates is an indicator that additional velocity is just around the corner for the top lefty in the class.

Lawrence County LHP Bryce Blevins, who committed to Kentucky early last summer, is in the No. 3 spot. Blevins has run his fastball up to 86 mph and possesses a swing-and-miss 72-74 mph breaking ball to go along with feel for a mid-70’s changeup.

Danville RHP Jack Simpson checks in at No. 4 after a strong showing at the Preseason All-State Showcase that saw him make a big jump in velocity. At 6-foot-3, 175 pounds, Simpson has an ideal pitcher’s frame and routinely sat 87-88 mph T89 in his bullpen. Add to that a solid 70-73 mph curveball and 75-77 changeup and Simpson has vaulted himself into the top-ranked right-hander in the class. Simpson is currently uncommitted.

Franklin County RHP Bennett Myers rounds out the top five. The 6-foot-3, 194 pound righty pounds the strike zone with an effective three-pitch mix. His fastball has topped at 86, and the curveball, which has always displayed good depth and spin, has gotten harder at 67-69. Myers also shows good feel for his 73-75 mph changeup. Myers is currently uncommitted.

Don't see how a Louisville and a Kentucky commit can be seen as not good pitchers.

BTW, coaches or scouts don't care how long a kid can pitch.  If you and your son are as unhappy as you sound, you definitely need to find a new team.  Why would you pay big money to be miserable?  But you need to be honest and when you are looking for a college, you need to find one that the coach is approachable and tells his players good job, which many do not.  Good luck. 

@PitchingFan posted:

Let me begin with the fact that these four guys who PBR has ranked as top pitchers for 2022 class in Kentucky are definitely better than what you are describing and I'm assuming the kid you are talking about is one of these. 

Paducah Tilghman LHP Justin West, another early Louisville commit, occupies the No. 2 spot. The 6-foot-3, 160 pound lefty is just scratching the surface of how good he will be as he fills in his frame. West can really pitch, showing pinpoint command of his fastball/curveball mix. The hand speed on his curveball that produces 2300-2400 RPM spin rates is an indicator that additional velocity is just around the corner for the top lefty in the class.

Lawrence County LHP Bryce Blevins, who committed to Kentucky early last summer, is in the No. 3 spot. Blevins has run his fastball up to 86 mph and possesses a swing-and-miss 72-74 mph breaking ball to go along with feel for a mid-70’s changeup.

Danville RHP Jack Simpson checks in at No. 4 after a strong showing at the Preseason All-State Showcase that saw him make a big jump in velocity. At 6-foot-3, 175 pounds, Simpson has an ideal pitcher’s frame and routinely sat 87-88 mph T89 in his bullpen. Add to that a solid 70-73 mph curveball and 75-77 changeup and Simpson has vaulted himself into the top-ranked right-hander in the class. Simpson is currently uncommitted.

Franklin County RHP Bennett Myers rounds out the top five. The 6-foot-3, 194 pound righty pounds the strike zone with an effective three-pitch mix. His fastball has topped at 86, and the curveball, which has always displayed good depth and spin, has gotten harder at 67-69. Myers also shows good feel for his 73-75 mph changeup. Myers is currently uncommitted.

Don't see how a Louisville and a Kentucky commit can be seen as not good pitchers.

BTW, coaches or scouts don't care how long a kid can pitch.  If you and your son are as unhappy as you sound, you definitely need to find a new team.  Why would you pay big money to be miserable?  But you need to be honest and when you are looking for a college, you need to find one that the coach is approachable and tells his players good job, which many do not.  Good luck. 

I believe the OP stated her son was top 2 on his team and over the course of this topic it morphed into #2 in the state...

No, it was that the other kid was overhead as people saying he was/would be #1 in the state.  Who can say whether it's true?  Main thing is, don't worry about the other kid, it's irrelevant. 

Meads, what is your relationship with the coach?  It's true that the boys should do the talking with their coaches about game stuff, but in our experience, the travel coach wanted to talk to parents about college recruiting.  After all, you are the one who will be paying for it.  Then the boy did all his own talking with colleges.  Have you asked the coach?  You can frame it as you are new to it all, and want basic information. 

I say this as a mom who was always very shy about talking to coaches; there are a couple of times I wish I had asked more questions.

I don't think many realize that meads is a mom.

@anotherparent posted:

Main thing is, don't worry about the other kid, it's irrelevant. 

 

Definitely this.

There wasn't a positive thing in this post. Why not just save yourself the headache and find a new team? If your son is as good as you say I'm sure someone else would be glad to have him. 

@meads posted:

 

LuckyCat- we are looking at other teams that are interested in developing players and interested in helping them find the right schools. My son has done PBR and a couple of D1 camps. He will be doing a showcase later this summer for D1-D3 and NAIA schools. He is contacting colleges. He feels he is more suited for a D3 (right now). He does have an NCSA account as well.

. . . .

 

My son did get an email from a D3 coach who caught a video and wanted more info and more footage. So that was encouraging.  

Sounds like you guys are doing the right things.  The fact that a D3 coach has already come a-calling says something.  Every time he feels like his travel coach doesn't appreciate him, he should remember that email.  And, just keep working at getting bigger, stronger, faster, better.  

@anotherparent posted:

No, it was that the other kid was overhead as people saying he was/would be #1 in the state.  Who can say whether it's true?  Main thing is, don't worry about the other kid, it's irrelevant. 

Meads, what is your relationship with the coach?  It's true that the boys should do the talking with their coaches about game stuff, but in our experience, the travel coach wanted to talk to parents about college recruiting.  After all, you are the one who will be paying for it.  Then the boy did all his own talking with colleges.  Have you asked the coach?  You can frame it as you are new to it all, and want basic information. 

I say this as a mom who was always very shy about talking to coaches; there are a couple of times I wish I had asked more questions.

Yes I am a mom.

The  “other kid” is not a ranked by PBR or PG or any other platform I know of. Neither is my boy. But as I stated in the original post, my son’s coach passes over my son and has been overheard talking about this “other kid”. 
Yeah, nothing positive is coming up from this team he is currently with except what I do for my son and what my son does for himself. 
I would never talk to the coach, I put that responsibility on my son. I told him he needs to talk to the coach, not my place to intervene. I would back him 100% except he would not be allowed to quit (if it came to that). We finish out the season. 👍

Of course I didn't mean talk to the coach about playing, attitude, etc.  That is entirely up to your son.

I meant talk to the coach about college recruiting.  Eventually, you (as well as your son) need to be able to talk to a travel coach about recruiting.  A coach should expect that not all parents will have all the answers.  If you can't talk to this one, all the more reason to find a different one. 

What other players are doing or how they are treated is irrelevant. Box scores are irrelevant. Is this a 16u or 17u team?

If 16u is the team positioning the player to get on the right 17u team? If 16u is the coach willing to help promote the player to the right 17u team? 

If 17u is the team playing in the right places to gain the right exposure to college coaches? If 17u do coaches have college contacts and are willing to use them on behalf of the player? 

As a player you don’t want to hope to be found. A player needs to be proactive along with his coach selling the player to the best possible academic, baseball, financial, social and cultural fit. 

meads,

pack it up and move on...it will be better in the long run for both you and your son.  Believe me...

If your son is running in the mid to low 80's at 16 he will most likely find a spot at the next level...not sure if you mentioned his height/weight, but if this is projectable then that will also help him as well.  Enjoy the baseball years and don't sweat the stuff you can't control.  Support your son and if he is willing to work hard and keep his head up then it will all pay off in the end.

@meads posted:

Fenwaysouth- my son loves his teammates but no he is not being developed and this season he doesn’t feel valued from the coaches- teammates and parents-yes. But we have to look at the big picture.

……………………………………………………………..

thank you all for the advice and wise words. The advice has been heard and will be applied. Wishing your kids success also.

 

 

Probably a good time for parent and player to meet with the Coach to discuss next steps for college recruitment.    Also, this would not be a bad time to get your son evaluated by a third party in the baseball business.   If you have access to some local baseball academies or instructors this would be a good next step to determine if he has the skills and projectability at the next level.   Others in this thread have suggested a skills evaluation and I totally agree. 

At most, your son has 18 months to be recruited in a pandemic that has changed the landscape of college baseball.  The current team situation you've outlined doesn't look like it is helping in your son's desire to play college baseball.   Have your son ask (with you present) the Coach about college baseball recruitment and if the Coach will help in his recruitment.   Listen very carefully to the answer.  At that moment in time you will know exactly what needs to be done.

Recruited = Passion + Skill + Exposure + Persistence + Luck

JMO.   Good luck!

Another thing occurs to me in reading over this thread.  It seems to me that at 16 and 17 most summer teams unfortunately do not make development a big priority.  While they'll work on some things where they can, they seem primarily focused on showcasing and recruiting, and expect the players and their families to look outside the team if they want real help developing.  Am I wrong about that?

You aren’t wrong and with most travel schedules, there isn’t much time to practice.

@LuckyCat posted:

Another thing occurs to me in reading over this thread.  It seems to me that at 16 and 17 most summer teams unfortunately do not make development a big priority.  While they'll work on some things where they can, they seem primarily focused on showcasing and recruiting, and expect the players and their families to look outside the team if they want real help developing.  Am I wrong about that?

I agree. These days  many 16,17 year olds have been training since they were 12, 13 maybe even younger. 

Here in Florida there are training centers everywhere for athletes in all sports. 

The parent has gotten great advice, its time to make a plan, starting with an evaluation from a qualified individual.

JMO

Recruited = Passion + Skill + Exposure + Persistence + Luck

Fenwaysouth says it all!  One or two parts alone won't get it done, need as many as you can have and do it well.  The only other thing I would add is to understand and be a student of the game better than others.

@LuckyCat posted:

Another thing occurs to me in reading over this thread.  It seems to me that at 16 and 17 most summer teams unfortunately do not make development a big priority.  While they'll work on some things where they can, they seem primarily focused on showcasing and recruiting, and expect the players and their families to look outside the team if they want real help developing.  Am I wrong about that?

We had a different experience with Baseball U CT.   Last summer Baseball U CT had 4 hour daily practices during the week all focused on player development.   Then on the weekends, they played tournaments to showcase players. The coaches all worked hard to help kids find the right college fit, including calling college coaches with whom they do have good relationships.  A great travel program will develop and assist in placing kids.  That is my experience.  

Our challenge has been summer ball/development before college.  Tough to find high-end baseball to play but we were fortunate to find a local league where a bunch of D3 commits (and some D1) are playing an 18 game July schedule.  First practices yesterday, an intrasquad scrimmage Saturday which I am going to watch and can't wait and first game Tuesday.   Excited to start watching baseball - with my mask on and socially distanced.  

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

We had a different experience with Baseball U CT.   Last summer Baseball U CT had 4 hour daily practices during the week all focused on player development.   Then on the weekends, they played tournaments to showcase players. The coaches all worked hard to help kids find the right college fit, including calling college coaches with whom they do have good relationships.  A great travel program will develop and assist in placing kids.  That is my experience.  

This has not been our experience.  Our son's team plays most of the week.  There is usually only one or two days off before it's time to start the next tournament.  There just really isn't much time for 4-hour practices once the season starts, especially if you're doing any traveling.

@LuckyCat posted:

Another thing occurs to me in reading over this thread.  It seems to me that at 16 and 17 most summer teams unfortunately do not make development a big priority.  While they'll work on some things where they can, they seem primarily focused on showcasing and recruiting, and expect the players and their families to look outside the team if they want real help developing.  Am I wrong about that?

LC,

I think your going to find a mixed bag on how travel teams operate.

My oldest son's travel ball experience was certainly focused on showcasing and recruiting.   The travel team would invite & bring college recruiters in for practices and scrimmages.   There was never a lack of exposure for the players as everyone would go on to play D1 baseball.   There was a pipeline of talent to many in-state schools through this travel team.   The development was left to the player however there was a roadmap and oversight by the travel team on their skills and physical progress.   There is no doubt my son owned his development and took it very seriously.   He was very self-motivated but the travel team also pushed him quite a bit through internal competition....there was a pecking order.  

He had a pitching coach (outside of the travel team) that he worked with since he was 11 or 12 years old.  This pitching coach was excellent for my son based on many factors and he would work with my son for another 6 years.   The travel team was also excellent as they provided the skills framework for my son to develop.   There was never any doubt what a player should be working on at any particular moment in season or off season.

Just my experience.

@LuckyCat posted:

Another thing occurs to me in reading over this thread.  It seems to me that at 16 and 17 most summer teams unfortunately do not make development a big priority.  While they'll work on some things where they can, they seem primarily focused on showcasing and recruiting, and expect the players and their families to look outside the team if they want real help developing.  Am I wrong about that?

I think the idea for most is that high level players don't need their hands held. Summer practice is more for reps and staying sharp than it is development. The way I see it is that these players had from Nov-June to develop. 

One of the teams he played for at 16/17 did not practice at all. They'd get to the tournament a day early and take some BP/ground balls but that was it. 5 guys on that team were drafted out of HS. 

By the time you're a junior or senior in HS if you're still worried about development - recruiting is likely going to be an issue. You have to work on your own time to get where you want to be. 

My son’s 17u team wasn’t void of instruction. But practice was more reps than instruction. I felt I was paying for the coaching staff’s contacts and credibility. The big changes were made between soph and junior year with a third party. 

@PABaseball posted:

By the time you're a junior or senior in HS if you're still worried about development - recruiting is likely going to be an issue. You have to work on your own time to get where you want to be. 

Who said anything about being "worried?"  Every player should keep developing, even after he is playing in college, even after he's drafted.  There is always room to get better and any self-respecting athlete is going to keep working at it.  I haven't seen a kid yet on a 17u team that should stop working on his development, including a few first round draft picks.

I realize that it is the reality that these "showcase teams" are all about recruiting and not much about developing (except in game reps as other have pointed out) but I find that sad, really. I also think that it has contributed to pricing baseball right out of some people's budgets and helped make baseball more and more a rich family's sport.

@LuckyCat posted:

Who said anything about being "worried?"  Every player should keep developing, even after he is playing in college, even after he's drafted.  There is always room to get better and any self-respecting athlete is going to keep working at it.  I haven't seen a kid yet on a 17u team that should stop working on his development, including a few first round draft picks.

I realize that it is the reality that these "showcase teams" are all about recruiting and not much about developing (except in game reps as other have pointed out) but I find that sad, really. I also think that it has contributed to pricing baseball right out of some people's budgets and helped make baseball more and more a rich family's sport.

Form of speech, not actually worried. I understand development never ends, I meant it more to say if you're 16/17 you will be doing a lot of the development on your own time. If you're relying on your summer coach to give instruction on how to be a better ballplayer it would likely imply that playing college ball is going to be an uphill battle. 

When I think development I think training, lifting, mechanics, etc. A summer coach should be able to contribute to all that, but I also think that should be done year round on an individual basis, not during team practices. IMO you have all year to develop for HS and summer ball. That is where you see the results of said development. 

I hear ya PABaseball and have written the checks to fund my son's off-season workouts and instruction.  I mainly started down this particular rabbit hole because of Meads' comments that her son's current coach wasn't developing him.  I suspect her son's coach doesn't think its his job to develop her son, and many other coaches (and parents) would agree with him.  I, however, wish there was a little more of a balance between showcasing and developing.

On a related note, I've also wished there was a better balance between showcasing and coaching.  We are fairly satisfied with our son's team and baseball organization, but I have come to realize lately that the coach isn't really that interested in winning games as long as his boys are being seen and so doesn't actually do a lot of coaching during games.  Maybe I just miss 12u baseball.    But that's another digression.

When you have a parent who played college sports (as is true of many here), you know how to train you sons, or how to find appropriate trainers and instructors.  When you don't have that kind of parent, you do tend to hope that the summer travel team coaches will instruct the players during the summer.  It took us a few years to realize that that wasn't necessarily the case.  Had some coaches who didn't seem to want to help even when asked.  It was frustrating.

In fact, this is something I always wondered about.  You can go to an instructor and work in a cage on, say, batting.  Can discuss the swing, the mechanics, etc.  However, the other dimension of batting is what your approach at the plate is, how you are seeing and reacting to actual pitches in games.  If the instructor doesn't see you in games, then who should be helping you with actual plate appearances?  I always assumed it would be the coaches.  Didn't always seem to be the case, though.

@anotherparent posted:

When you have a parent who played college sports (as is true of many here), you know how to train you sons, or how to find appropriate trainers and instructors.  When you don't have that kind of parent, you do tend to hope that the summer travel team coaches will instruct the players during the summer.  It took us a few years to realize that that wasn't necessarily the case.  Had some coaches who didn't seem to want to help even when asked.  It was frustrating.

In fact, this is something I always wondered about.  You can go to an instructor and work in a cage on, say, batting.  Can discuss the swing, the mechanics, etc.  However, the other dimension of batting is what your approach at the plate is, how you are seeing and reacting to actual pitches in games.  If the instructor doesn't see you in games, then who should be helping you with actual plate appearances?  I always assumed it would be the coaches.  Didn't always seem to be the case, though.

A very good point. I played softball in HS and throughout college many years ago. I taught my son the fundamentals of baseball when he started playing around 10yo. Up until last year I could continue to teach but now he is in another dimension.
He has a pitching coach in the off season and I rely on his coaches (mainly hs) to help him through the next level. I read books and watch videos to give him thought provoking analytics but his level is above my ability. 
I just bought the “Baseball Playbook” by Ron Polk- my mind is blown by what goes into it all! But I have picked up some very valuable things and son and I have been discussing them.

He says for the remaining summer season he will continue to build on his skills and performance in the games he is in. He does a showcase in early August and we will look for teams to tryout for fall and next summer that are willing and dedicated to the players and taking them to the next level. I have gathered a list and son has contacted those coaches for tryout dates. 👍

Before picking a team for the 17u level it’s important to identify what level college prospect is the player. Then you neeed to find a team that fits his level. You don’t want him “showing” himself to the wrong teams at the wrong level at the wrong venues. 

He needs a skilled third party to assess his prospect level.  Then he needs to make a list of schools to target in his skill level. Start with conferences. Then figure out what schools in the conference are the right academic, baseball, financial, social and cultural fit. Then he needs to find a 17u team that will help him get in front of those schools with coaches who can sell him to those schools. The list can be fifty colleges. Some schools won’t be interested. He’ll lose interest in some schools.

The best way for a player to get recruited is his coach calls a college program, tells them he has a player they need to see at XYZ tournament. If the coach has credibility the college program sends a coach for a look. Now the player doesn’t need to make himself seen. He just has to live up to the promotion his coach gave.

@RJM posted:

Before picking a team for the 17u level it’s important to identify what level college prospect is the player. Then you neeed to find a team that fits his level. You don’t want him “showing” himself to the wrong teams at the wrong level at the wrong venues. 

He needs a skilled third party to assess his prospect level.  Then he needs to make a list of schools to target in his skill level. Start with conferences. Then figure out what schools in the conference are the right academic, baseball, financial, social and cultural fit. Then he needs to find a 17u team that will help him get in front of those schools with coaches who can sell him to those schools. The list can be fifty colleges. Some schools won’t be interested. He’ll lose interest in some schools.

The best way for a player to get recruited is his coach calls a college program, tells them he has a player they need to see at XYZ tournament. If the coach has credibility the college program sends a coach for a look. Now the player doesn’t need to make himself seen. He just has to live up to the promotion his coach gave.

Great points! Thanks. We do know he is not D1 level. Maybe more of a D3, possibly a D2. I think with another 6 months of weight training and off season pitching lessons, he could get to a D1 prospect. He does commit himself and work hard and is dedicated to always improving himself. He has goal and timelines. He loves challenges and doesn’t look for the easy road.

Good luck to your son meads!  Hope he finds the right team for next year!

@RJM is on point with all that. Not all programs are about development either. Some in our area just collect checks. You need to go to an appropriate leveled team with the appropriate training and events.

Just this week we (17s) were at 18U WWBA. Team came in from CO and brought 13 guys. It was 13-0 after 3. They didn't want to invoke the run rule to let their guys keep "playing". I sort of get that, given the cost and time commitment of the tourney, but we scored 11 in the next inning and that was with holding guys back on base.  Won 24-0. That was an expensive trip for that team and parents. But WHY? They didn't get any "good" looks at an event like that. All the scouts would return to the stands and talk amongst themselves when they would take the field and/or they would film our guys batting. I felt bad for them.

If you travel to big events you have to come prepared. We were on another regional travel team last summer and we came to 16U WWBA with 13 guys and not enough pitchers to go deep. The parents were talking about playing to win vs playing to show.  We were there to "show" and not to win. You can't with 13 guys in a huge tournament like that. The program did what it said it would do, "get your son to be seen and in front of college scouts". Which was helpful for a lot of our boys. We were competitive, just didn't have the pitching depth to survive. A lot of the guys started conversations with schools because of that event. Mission accomplished. 

Just because you're paying money for a travel team doesn't mean they're going to develop, maybe they just travel. Private instruction is key, if you can afford it and keep up with it or be lucky enough to find a team that does both. They're aren't many. We have a lot of programs in our area that prey on Parent's Hope, don't develop, and collect checks. We know to avoid those places. 

HS ball is different in different parts of the country and states. TX for example has good HS ball in some areas and bad in others. HS Ball in our area is meh and we don't get much if any instruction at our HS. (and that is OK as we know that and plan accordingly). Our coach doesn't get involved in recruiting much (which is OK, and we know that up front). Not fair to put that kind of pressure on someone that doesn't do that or want to.  So we found a travel team that did a little instruction, but was competitive and traveled. We utilized HS for what it is for us which is Reps not development. Reps to get in shape and stay healthy but prepare for summer ball.

Our local travel team doesn't travel much out of state and my son wanted to get East to be seen by more schools than TX and surrounding states. So in the Fall when they weren't going to Ft. Meyers for the 2021 WWBA and Jupiter for the 2020 we asked around and sent videos and metrics to the national travel teams and are VERY HAPPY on East Cobb Astros. Great organization and great coaching and they travel and show very well. Have lots of exposure and great relationships with Coaches and scouts. It couldn't have worked out better. They guys all get along and are having a lot of fun playing great baseball.

Hopefully everyone behaves and we can keep playing. PG is going gang busters in GA, FL, and AL and plans to continue. If school goes virtual again, they're going to keep hosting tourneys, as long as they're allowed. 

Yes they make money but they also put out a good product. 

Find a good team that is a good fit for your son and best of luck. Everyone has a shot at playing at lots of levels and all those coaches are hungry for players for their teams. k

@meads posted:

Great points! Thanks. We do know he is not D1 level. Maybe more of a D3, possibly a D2. I think with another 6 months of weight training and off season pitching lessons, he could get to a D1 prospect. He does commit himself and work hard and is dedicated to always improving himself. He has goal and timelines. He loves challenges and doesn’t look for the easy road.

Unless a kid is a pro prospect (he will be told, not declare himself one) don’t worry about level of play. D1 isn’t for everyone. Give academics the most consideration. Find the best fit for the best college experience. A friend’s son played for a D3 HA national champion. The dog pile looked just as fun as the CWS. Then he went on to a Wall Street career.

Some great advice here from some people who know what they are talking about. 

My son (2023) was asked to guest play earlier this summer by one of if not the best team in the area. He played well both defensively and offensively. I would argue he’s a better fielder than 4 of their 6 MIF and just as good if not better than their C. The big difference though, my son is 135 and those kids are 150-200+ and a couple D1 commits.  While my son had more hits than most of them, his hits were singles or doubles down the line. Their outs were fly balls to the warning track. 

Most of the kids on that roster are being recruited by D1 schools. My son just doesn’t fit that profile yet. He used the experience to motivate himself to work harder than ever off the field to add the muscle needed to fit in. It will take a while, but if he doesn’t make it, it will not be due to a lack of effort  

Just a quick update: so DS was asked to pitch for a tournament in Louisville for another team. We cleared a schedules and went. He didn’t start, but pitched the last 3 innings striking out 5, allowing 4 hits and 1 run- after the game several people came up to him and told what a great job he did and the infield umpire stopped us in the parking lot to shake his hand and said he did a really great job. 👍😆 so are least we know he can hang with the more elite/ bigger teams.

Since then, his coaches have made comments (joking to him that he sucks, that he can’t throw 3 consecutive strikes in a row...) DS just laughs along with them and says, “mom I’m not sure if they are trying to make me mad so I work harder than I already do or they are trying to push me away?” Either way we are gone! 😂 no looking back! 
We are looking at 5 different teams to tryout for. He has 1 game and 1 tournament left for the summer then it “bye Felicia” 👍

@meads posted:

Since then, his coaches have made comments (joking to him that he sucks, that he can’t throw 3 consecutive strikes in a row...) DS just laughs along with them and says, “mom I’m not sure if they are trying to make me mad so I work harder than I already do or they are trying to push me away?” Either way we are gone! 😂 no looking back! 
We are looking at 5 different teams to tryout for. He has 1 game and 1 tournament left for the summer then it “bye Felicia” 👍

I am constantly reminded how many life lessons can be learned playing baseball.  Resiliency is one of them.  Figuring out how to think about, and gracefully deal with, crappy coaches will help your son in so many other situations in life. 

Help him take care in picking his next team, meads, but most of all, make sure his next coaches believe in him and want to help him with his dream of playing college ball. 

Let us know how it goes.

Interesting stories. 2.5 years ago my GS was selected for the best travel team in the state. He was 5 6" and 135 lbs and the worst player on that team. But he played a season with them and saw what was possible. All those guys are D1 studs. Got him a pitching coach that plays for the Nats, a hitting coach that trains the Mets, and got into the weight room. Last summer he threw 85mph and was still small. 6 mos later he is 6 ft 200 lbs, same foot speed but at 92 mph fb and 80 mph cb.

He jumped almost all this D1 guys in PG and is Now a D1 commit 2021!

It is all about the work!

@LuckyCat posted:

I am constantly reminded how many life lessons can be learned playing baseball.  Resiliency is one of them.  Figuring out how to think about, and gracefully deal with, crappy coaches will help your son in so many other situations in life. 

Help him take care in picking his next team, meads, but most of all, make sure his next coaches believe in him and want to help him with his dream of playing college ball. 

Let us know how it goes.

Definitely true. We all have crappy coaches, crappy bosses, etc., and there are lessons to be learned from surviving that. Of course there IS the difference is that we're paying the coach to be crappy to our kids, while at least the crappy boss (or the company) is paying us. Funny how that works.

Yep frustration setting in. Great topic title. Read it all. This is what I learned:

We paid greatly......to be seen....where recruiters were paid to see us.......where winning  a game was never the goal in a 'team' format......in a tournament of team members competing to win some Non scoreboard related measurables as an individual..........cause that's what the recruiters for a college baseball team want to see.........and it takes exactly 7 games and a weeks time to accomplish this........and it all must be repeated next week, month, or up coming 'big' event trip.......all of course after we get back home an take another $1000ish+ dollars of lessons or find the next biggest and best-est promoted 'team' to pay (errr join) up with.

Got it!!!

1.) The whole system is devoid from the real game of baseball. Very few of you actually love baseball.

2.) This industry is either bleeding you dry while dangling dreams, or you really don't care what the cost is as its not relevant to what you are buying.

3.) College baseball and its recruiters are increasingly complicit in the industry scam.

ShowballS: “Very few of you actually love baseball.”

All experience posts are appreciated. That’s how we on this board learn to help our players and to be prepared.

We are here because “we love baseball”, support our sons and daughters aspirations, and frankly, care about other people in similar situations. If I can reduce pain other people may go through... I post.

Love baseball...

My son played Legion ball and continued his rehab the summer after senior year. He said while the play didn’t come close to travel until tournament time it was fun to play again with the priority being winning the game.

His 17u team played to win. But it was with everyone getting adequate exposure.

He said the same thing in 13u looking back at LL all stars. We played to win in 13u. But if you didn’t win the tournament there was another next week. In LL all stars it was win and advance or go home for the summer.

Funny story and maybe a little off topic- sorry OP.  My 2022's team was in Ft. Myers a couple weeks ago.  We were playing one of those MLB team name "scout" teams.  Late in the game we were down a run or two and needed some base runners, so our batter dropped down a bunt for a base hit.  Their third baseman couldn't make the play.  So guess what, next batter dropped one down for another hit.  And, next kid shortened up to sac bunt but the pitch was a ball so he pulled it back.  At that point their parents started yelling at us to swing the bats because this is show ball.  It wasn't just one parent, it was a chorus of them. They were playing to show and we were playing to win.

@Opus X posted:

Funny story and maybe a little off topic- sorry OP.  My 2022's team was in Ft. Myers a couple weeks ago.  We were playing one of those MLB team name "scout" teams.  Late in the game we were down a run or two and needed some base runners, so our batter dropped down a bunt for a base hit.  Their third baseman couldn't make the play.  So guess what, next batter dropped one down for another hit.  And, next kid shortened up to sac bunt but the pitch was a ball so he pulled it back.  At that point their parents started yelling at us to swing the bats because this is show ball.  It wasn't just one parent, it was a chorus of them. They were playing to show and we were playing to win.

Who won? 

Unfortunately, not us.

Do the “Scout” teams have any actual affiliation to the corresponding MLB team? The closest I’ve seen is an actual MLB scour was involved with the team. There are a few others where I can’t find any connection at all

In California during the 1980's I coached the Chicago Cubs Scout team which included Kenny Williams, now President of the Chicago White Sox. We played the Junior Colleges included the famous Sac State. Our games were 16 innings.

This was very competitive baseball and included only the best HS players in Northern California. 10-12 pro scouts each game.

Bob

Most all of them are connected in some form with the club they represent either by money or scouts.  My son played for KC Royals scout team for two years.  They were fully invested.  Practiced at the K and other fields owned by them.  They provided coaches, uniforms, trainers, and all expenses except travel.  We paid for flights and they paid for everything else including meals.  One of the best experiences ever.  The players on that team were all P5 guys and HS draft guys.  3 were freshmen all americans this year. 

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Do the “Scout” teams have any actual affiliation to the corresponding MLB team? The closest I’ve seen is an actual MLB scour was involved with the team. There are a few others where I can’t find any connection at all

Our experience was very similar to what PitchingFan and Consultant describe although our most direct experience was 8-10 years ago and it seems things have been watered down a bit in more recent years.

When son played, his team was run by an area scout, as were most or all of the other teams.  Quite a few he played with  and against are on MLB rosters now.  It was fairly common for rosters to hold 30-40+ players and they would come and go throughout the day's double header, based on what innings they were scheduled to play.  It was definitely a "show your skills" environment more than "win the game" one and yes, bunting was generally frowned upon.  Costs were very low so nobody was being bled dry