Get Rid Of Instant Review

Not sure we ever will.  Although I love technology, I love the human element in baseball even more.  In a game where failing 7 out of 10 times is HOF material, I don't think the attainment of perfection is the goal.  And I'm not saying that everyone, players, coaches, umps should not strive for perfection, but taking out the human element in pursuit of perfection is not my deal.

 

Unlike coach Mills, I like watching the little pitch graphic they throw up there.  And guess what, if that graphic shows a strike and the ump had called a ball, I'm not that upset about it.  Because I know it's just part of the game.

Coach_Mills,

 

You’re always welcome to express whatever opinion you like, and I always respect them even though I may not agree. But when you completely misrepresent what I’m saying, I don’t think it’s a fair argument.

 

No matter what you think, I’m not “prodding” you to say or do anything, and I’ve already apologized if I offended you. I can’t help it if you find my opinion quizzical, I’m assuming meaning you don’t understand it, so I’ll try to help you understand it. My opinion is, I’d much rather see pitches not swung at more correctly called, no matter how its done, rather than see them called with a known error rate of at least 10%.

 

I’m not talking about arguing or negating anyone’s authority! Its very simply about getting more calls right. If the umpire’s see that as their authority being challenged, that’s on them, not me. But I’d say it was pretty sad if an umpire got angry when he was shown he made an erroneous call. Embarrassed maybe, but angry? I don’t think it would happen a lot, if at all.

 

But the worst thing you’ve done is to say I “prefer a graphic that some random person threw up on the screen over an umpires call”. I’ve never once said anything like that, and in fact made sure to point out that that stupid graphic isn’t at all an accurate representation of the strike zone and a pitch. Finally, no one has ever heard me advocate for any intrusion into the game of baseball by technology for anything other than calling pitches not swung at. If anything, what I’m advocating would bring more officials into the mix rather than remove anyone or usurp their authority in any way.

 

I’ll say it once again to try to be clear. I’m not talking about anything other than calling pitches not swung at with as much accuracy as possible!  I don’t advocate replacing any umpires nor do I advocate challenging their authority in any way. All I’m saying is, a computer can do this job faster and more accurately, and I think that would enhance the game. You don’t. OK. We have differing opinions. So what?

 

Where did you get your PHD? I’d love to read your dissertation if possible. I’ve read several and am always snowed under by the time I get more an a few pages into them, but they fascinate me.

 

I wonder if they actually looked at the replay.... I think the vast majority of umpire do a great job, but it seems like when they are bad they are really bad. Kinda like not knowing rules when changing pitchers....

I was going to post that if we know the umpire's name because of on field calls, then we know too much. JT pointed that out before me though.   (and then there's Joe West....)

It's his decision. No one can overrule him. They can have input, but it's his call. I have also heard grumblings that the replay feed was less than adequate.

For better or worse, I believe Stats is right!  I think it's inevitable.  IMO it will be better and umpires will still be needed to administer the games.  I agree with JH, the outcome of any game should be decided by the two teams, the players that are competing against each other.

When the outcome is determined by someone other than the competitors (umpire), something is wrong.  Error by the competitor is one thing, it's part of the competition. BTW coaches are part of the competition, umpires are not involved in the competition.

Most good umpires want to allow the players to determine the outcome.  They don't want to make a mistake that changes the outcome.  They not only make the calls, they administer the game.  I can't think far enough ahead to see the day umpires are replaced, but I can see technology playing a big part of getting the calls right some day.

Whether we want it or not, it's already started to happen and not just in baseball.  The most valuable person of any MLB game should never be Angel Hernandez. Or Don Denkinger! One thing that might improve the issue is to have a replay official quickly determine the right call and radio down! This would save time and create a bit more accuracy.

This is not a slam on umpires. Just a way to help them do the very best possible job. BTW, there is technology out there now that can do things that boggle my mind. I'm talking about very sophisticated stuff that most people don't even know exists yet. I'm pretty sure things will change... It always does!

PGStaff ... you say:

 

"BTW, there is technology out there now that can do things that boggle my mind. I'm talking about very sophisticated stuff that most people don't even know exists yet."

 

Come on man! Give us a hint

 

Your probably right PG. If everything was perfect. Maybe we should make sure every field had the exact same dimensions. Drag the field after every play is made. We can't have bad hops that's not fair. Better yet field turf every field so there are no bad hops. And if replay determines a bad hop we can have a do over. We need to make it as perfect as we can. Lets take the human element totally out of the game. Lets have sanitized baseball. We don't need umpires we can just have a guy behind a bank of monitors and a big video board managing the game.

You know JH is right as well. The game should be decided by the players. Every pitch should be called right. There should never be a bad call. Every scoring issue should be made properly. Man what a boring game. If I am still alive when this happens I'm sure I will be doing a lot more fishing. I'm not trying to be a smart as s. PG and JH are two guys I have the utmost respect for. But perfect is boring. The better we try and make something, oh well I'm guess I'm a flake.

       
       


Here here coach. I agree.

Agree completely. There is far to much technology in the world already. What's wrong with leaving it outside the stadium and allowing the game to remain that sanctuary from everyday life it's always been, that special place where imperfect people play that most perfect of games. Coaches make mistakes. Players make mistakes. Why not umpires?

bballman and Coach_May,

 

You’re both taking what those of us saying the game would be “better” if the calls made were better, as saying we want and even demand perfection, but that’s far from what I’ve seen anyone say. No one’s talking about changing one thing the actual participants in the game do. That’s dealt with off the field, with things like video tape, high level metrics, medical treatment far more advanced than what most of us ever encounter, nutrition information, and advanced study of the way the body works. What’s going on now is so far superior to what went on even just 25 years ago, its truly amazing. But the players although being superior athletes with much more knowledge, are far from boring even though they are much better prepared.

 

So why is it ok for that part of the game to advance, but not the officiating of the game? To me there are a lot more things I’d rather see baseball deal with than whether or not an umpire missed a call on a 3-2 pitch and either called a batter out that should have been walked, or walked a batter on a pitch that should have been a strike and the batter have been out. That’s taking the game away from the players, and if it can be stopped, why not stop it?

 

Ya know, its not as though technology used at the ML level would soon find its way into Little League, High School, or any amateur games very soon, so the day to day games we all see in person wouldn’t likely be affected anyway. If you like to see umpires be fallible in calling pitches or having different ways of calling the strike zone, believe me you won’t be disappointed! But what we’re talking about, at least for now, is very much about $$$, and when that happens, those on either side of a game want to make sure the game is decided by the product on the field, not the fallibility of a human being in making the proper call on something that happens so fast, 99% of those of us living could see it happen if we were in the umpire’s shoes.

 

No one’s talking about making the field perfect either, but in case you haven’t noticed, playing fields in general, and especially at the ML level are much more compliant with the rules than they were even a few decades back. And to even suggest something like do overs because of a bad hop is just ridiculous. No one’s saying that either. But if you notice, they already drag the field halfway through ML games, and have been doing that for many years. Why? Because it makes the game better by taking away some of those bad hops.

 

Face it. Times change and the game is constantly evolving. And most of the time there are more people who don’t want to see a change than do. But guess what? Once the changes are put into effect and become part of the game, people not only get used to them, much of the time the changes are universally liked.

As I said... For better or worse!  BTW we are talking about MLB here.  The game might change someday for all organized baseball, but when that happens, none of us will care.

 

Bad hops, will always exist.  The better player handles the bad hop better than the lesser player. Baseball will never involve perfection. 

 

I hated the replays when they first started in football.  Now it seems kind of normal.  In fact, in some ways it even adds another dimension to the game.  The fan sees the play and forms an opinion.  Then anticipates how the referees will call it.  In the end it isno conclusive or proves the call right or wrong. 

 

I about as old school as you can get.  But anyone that thinks baseball hasn't changed over the years is just overlooking those changes.  Everything from the equipment and stadiums to the uniforms and technology has changed dramatically.  And guess what... We still all love the game!

 

i don't believe making the calls more accurate will ruin baseball, just as it hasn't ruined football or basketball.  I'm sure people will complain, just like many did when football started using replays. 50 years from now people will be complaining about something else. 

 

Finally, I never go to a baseball game because of the umpires.  I respect those who are very good at it.  It's a tough job!  I understand the arguments are part of the game.  There will always be arguments, is the pitcher throwing at the hitter intentionally and other things.  What has been said by many is that baseball is too slow, the games take too long!  Take a stop watch to a game... Next time there is a dispute between manager and umpires, time it.  Then think how quickly the same play could be resolved by replay.

 

Truth is, I'm OK either way.  I love baseball and always will.  But for baseball to regain it's place as America's past time, it needs to keep striving to get better.  It would have already died out if it were played like it was in the 1800s!  

 

I kind of agree with those who think we have too much technology these days.  Then again most my age, even younger, can remember no air conditioning, no television, no computers, even no running water.  Cell phones have pretty much eliminated land line for most of us.  The good old days sure were different! I could actually work on my car back then. Never had to worry about getting my identity stolen, either. Guess there is the good and the bad when it comes to progress!

 

Bottom line... We can't stop progress, I don't think!  We either accept it or we don't. That is all I got, straight from my IPAD!

Guess I was typing the last post at the same time Stats posted.  I understand that being on the same wave length as Stats might not be all that popular with some.  But it does add to the entertainment value.  Anyway, I've grown to enjoy Stats involvement on this site.  It's not important that we all agree on everything.  It's much better when we don't. As long as it doesn't get personal, it's fun to give opinions and listen to other opinions.

This site reminds me of when I get together with my old buddies and we argue about anything and everything that is brought up. Once in awhile it gets a bit out of hand, but we will always be good friends.

I can't argue against points your making. I know the fields are almost perfect. They will continue to get even better. We're does it stop? At what point does it stop? At what point does it go so far we don't even recognize it?  Under stand change. I just don't believe that progress and change always equates to being better. There are many days I wish the cell phone didn't exist. And days I'm glad it does. And I typed this on my iPhone. I'm not here to change anyone's mind. Just letting others know what's on mine.

Not that it means anything to anyone, but my son just got home from school a couple of days ago.  He's a pitcher at a D2 school.  After being involved in this thread for a while, I got curious as to how he felt about replay in baseball.  You know how I feel, so I did not want to influence him in what he said.

 

Standing in the kitchen, out of the blue, I asked him what he thought about instant replay in baseball.  His immediate response was, it's stupid.  Umpires are part of the game.  Then I chimed in my feelings about it, that umps are part of the game, the calls will work themselves out, etc.  He agreed with everything I had to say.  I put in there about umpires strike zones being different and that I felt it was part of the strategy for pitching.  Figuring out what the ump is calling and taking advantage of that, and he agreed.  I can't do the conversation justice here, but suffice it to say, his opinion was that he wouldn't like instant replay in baseball.

 

Just curious, without bias from mom or dad, how does your player feel about IR in baseball?  We see it from a parent/spectator viewpoint.  I wonder what the consensus is from those actually playing the game?  Maybe some of you could ask your kids what they think and report back.

 

Just a thought.

Mine pitched in college too, then was a pitching coach for a HS team. He thinks its stupid to allow calls that could be corrected to go unchanged, as long as getting it right doesn’t take undue time.

 

But I suspect more than anything, my son’s feelings and yours are more likely because they are more of a reflection of us than we sometimes realize. Why not try asking people who have no ties to the game, and ask it in the form of a moral or right or wrong choice.

My HS freshman agrees with you and yor son. But I let him be wrong once in awhile.

KIDDING BBALLMAN! But he really is with y'all.

Stats, I don't think it is a moral or right/wrong choice. It's just a matter of what people think. And I don't really care what people outside of baseball think, quite frankly. I brought this back up because I was interested to hear what the actual players thought. And obviously, not every player is going to think the same way as their parents. Jp's kid has a different viewpoint than he does.

Totally agree. Morality isn't the issue, and anyone who has no ties to baseball is just ... well ... suspect!

 

Sometimes when we disagree with our kids, we discover they're right. Not saying I'm there ... but I've learned from him before.

 

bballman -- bigpappi started this thread on the heels of a badly blown call that directly impacted the pitcher and the team. I earlier asked you if your son would agree with your viewpoint if he'd been on the mound when that happened. Balls and strikes aside, do you conclude after talking to him that he'd just suck it up and move on? If so, kudos to him.

Yep, he would. We did't talk about that play specifically, but we did bring up that IR is used for HR calls. He specifically said he thinks the umps call should stand and then deal with it. At some point, somewhere down the road, you will get a call to go your way. That's just the way it is and he feels that's the way it should be.

I have to say ... the logic of things balancing out over the long haul is compelling -- especially when the alternative is technology, which frankly ... as much as I love it, is not without downsides. One of the things I love about baseball is that it's a 162-game season. Things do balance out over time.

 

You, your son and my own boy have me thinking. It stinks when bad calls determine outcomes, but y'all offer a serious perspective.

bbman,

 

Of course it’s a right/wrong choice as well as a moral one. And of course if the only people asked about it are in the game, which means brainwashed and forced into believing the same old dogma as all those who’ve gone before them, there’s no doubt in my mind what the answer will be. The only way to get a REAL answer as to whether or not it would be “better”, is to try to get as many unbiased people to answer it as possible.

 

What would you expect to hear from someone who for at least 10 years has had it drummed into his head that they have to learn to accept the things they can’t control and move on. There’s nothing wrong with that on a personal level, but on a collective one there is a way to control it and it should be taken if there’s to continue to be evolution in the game, the same way there’s been evolution in the game because of technology since the game began.

 

I know people don’t like change and I certainly understand it because I don’t like change either. But sometimes you just have to admit change might be a good thing, accept it, and give it a try before you condemn it.

Now you've lost me stats. I guess I'm just an immoral person because I don't like IR in baseball. That's really a little offensive, quite frankly.

When did that occur JH?  I filled in at MiLB stadiums last season that had zero cameras except for local TV sports and those were not there for the entire game.

 

Additionally, I spend some time at various Arizona League facilities each summer that have no cameras installed on a continuing basis.

I guess I'm just an immoral person because I don't like IR in baseball. That's really a little offensive, quite frankly.

 

No one said anything about it being immoral to not like IR, and quite frankly if that what you think I was saying, quite frankly I’m offended at myself for even trying to carry on a discussion with you.

 

All I was trying to say was to ask the question of people who had little or nothing to do with it in order to take as much bias out of it as possible.

Jimmy03,

 

I don’t think TV cameras are the kind of cameras either QuesTec or Pitch or Hit (f/x) uses. Have you ever been given an Umpirre’s scoring DVD from MLB?

       
       


Maybe I went a little too far, but it is NOT a question of morality. I think you are taking this thing WAY too far stats. You like the idea of IR, I don't. Why do you have to bring right/wrong or morality into it?  Why should we leave a question affecting baseball up to people who know nothing about the game?  It really isn't a philosophical question.

Ask the question of people who had little or nothing to do with it in order to take as much bias out of it as possible.

 

A reaction and a question, Stats:

 

I would guess that if you polled MLB players, coaches and staff, you'd find advocates for and against IR. But at least it would be an informed view, which seems preferable. Bias isn't bad when it's rooted in knowlege.

 

Question: Would you prefer that some organization other than MLB make this decision? Or would you just have them solicit non-informed baseball viewpoints? Maybe that's not what you're saying ... but I strongly believe this and all decisions regarding the game should be made by the people closest to it.

jp24,

 

Let me begin with saying that I honestly couldn’t care less about IR because its already here and going to be used more and more no matter what anyone wants. Calling pitches not swung at with technology hasn’t got a thing to do with IR because there’s no replay to try to get it right. Its just done.

 

Sorry, but informed in this case means rooted in tradition. Baseball people aren’t widely known as the most educated or informed on the topic being discussed. While there are obviously some in the game who not only understand it and the complexities it takes to play it, there aren’t a lot in my experience who know much more about leading edge technology than their smartphone, and are often cowed by dogma and fear of the repercussions of voicing their true feelings or opinions.

 

What I’d prefer is that when I see a pitcher or hitter who’s worked his a$$ of for years and done something he should be rewarded for by the black and white rules of the game, he shouldn’t be cheated out of it by the frailties of human beings. Its just that simple. I don’t really care how many “make-up” calls there are or how things might “balance out” over the years. I see it as a simple right/wrong thing which boils down to a moral decision.

 

I don’t hold anything against anyone who doesn’t want to see IR because as I keep saying over and over, I’m not talking about IR. I’m being very specific about only advocating for pitches not swung at to be called correctly. If the ML umps are doing at a rate of 90%, what do you suspect the error rate is for any level lower than ML? And how many other professions do you know where a 10% error rate is not only expected, its counted on?

 

What do you believe makes the game better by having a built-in error rate that means 1 out of every 10 pitches not swung at is called incorrectly at the very highest levels?

Stats,

 

I'm all for getting every call right.  However, there is a lot to think about!

 

Computers, cell phones, electronics, all modern technology breaks down periodically.

 

I've never agreed with that old saying that everything evens out.  I suppose it could be close over a 162 game schedule, but things like the World Series are a 4 to 7 game schedule. One blown call can produce the "wrong" winner. That call will never be made up!

 

So it seems to me that things could be left somewhat as is during the regular season to satisfy the traditionalist fans.  Then utilize whatever is available in the playoffs.

 

Much of what has happened with replay and revue in football was caused by instant replay showing the call on the field was wrong.  There are times when things will never even out. The "only" reason the team won or lost the game was because of a wrong call. How does that ever even out when it ends the year for a team or it costs a team the World Series?

 

It is very simple IMO, the players should always decide the outcome. Obviously that is hard to do completely.  Luck always plays a part, be it a bad bounce or a bad call.

 

I will say this, I'm around baseball people a lot.  I think most would be against using available technology.  Most feel the mistaken calls are part of the game. Most people are against change!  I understand and appreciate that thinking, but baseball has changed a lot over the years.  Technology has entered baseball more than ever.  I think it is inevitable that technology will be used more and more.  People will adjust, the games will be just as exciting and they might even be quicker. The umpires will still be a very important part of the game, but the teams on the field will decide the outcome. I don't buy the "players make mistakes, too" comparison.  The player that makes an error might get a chance to make up for it somehow.

 

Why not give the umpires the tools to do the best possible job? If Don Denkinger had those tools his life would have been so much easier.

 

I love the game the way it is.  I'll love it just as much when they change things.

 

 

I agree that it is inevitable that IR and technology will be a part of the game. That doesn't mean I have to like it or advocate for it. I also think that, even with technology, not every single call will wind up being the correct one. Umpires will have to interpret what they see on replay and they will be dependent on things like the available angles and they may not always have the correct angle. So to say or think technology will make every call the correct one is just not true. We have seen that this season already.

Quite frankly my biggest fear is realized in stats's viewpoints. Having technology call all non swinging pitches is just way too much. Like I said earlier in the post, mostly tounge in cheek, why not just let the players play MLB2K on Xbox?  I just strongly feel that umpires and their calls and judgements are just as much part a of the game as the players - always have been, always should be IMO.

I understand what you are saying PG, that a season ending or season altering call will probably not be "evened out". But how many of them actually happen? You could probably count them with your fingers over the history of MLB. Other routine calls that happen over the course of a game or season - a strike called a ball, a runner called out on a bang-bang play at first, etc - will even out. Sometimes you get the close call, sometimes you don't.

Still don't think it's a right/wrong or moral issue. I'm going to try and stay done with this topic. Might be hard though.

There has never been a single game in  any professional sport, let alone a series, that has been decided by one play, one call, one player, or one coach or manager. Each game is a culmination of events, of which all influence, but not singularly determine, the outcome.

I never had a problem with most every call.  Some are so close it's not even worth debating. Many umpires do a great job and they are either right or the call on a close play had to be made one way or another.

 

It does bother me when a play is not close and it is obvious to millions watching television that it wasn't close and it still can't be corrected.  The kid that lost the perfect game for example. The Cardinals losing the World Series in 85! These were not close plays, these were plays where both umpires involved would have welcomed a way to change the call and make it the correct call.

 

Football and Basketball are ahead of baseball when it comes to using video to make the correct call.  And they still have a long way to go.  Maybe I'm nuts, but watching the replay and forming your own opinion has become an interesting part of watching football and basketball.  Are baseball umpires that much more talented than football and basketball officials that we don't need video?  Are baseball games less important?

 

It sure doesn't seem like it has made football and basketball less popular.

You bet things break down, PG. In fact, EVERYTHING breaks down eventually, even an umpire’s ability to make sound special judgments. But really, let’s assume for a second tomorrow MLB decided to allow technology to call pitches not swung at. What would be the change as far as anyone could tell by simply watching a game? Nothing! There’d still have to be an umpire behind the plate to make all the other calls, so if the “system” would break down for some reasons, all the PU would need to do is what he’s been doing for well over 100 years. Seems pretty seamless to me.

 

I see what you’re saying, but that’s akin to saying the games that qualify teams for the postseason have no meaning, and I don’t buy that any more than I buy that a game won at the end of the season in more “important” than one won at the beginning. However, I really couldn’t care less how it would be implemented because once it was, even for only say the WS, eventually the traditionalists would find the tradition they want to maintain is the new one, and it would eventually take over.

 

Well, I will agree that luck will always play a part, but a bad call that can be eliminated isn’t simply bad luck, its very poor planning.

 

But like you, I loved the game as it was when I was a kid, I love it as it is now, and I imagine I’ll love it on my deathbed which hopefully won’t take place for quite some time.

bballman, no one’s expecting EVERY call to be made correctly, as that would be pretty foolish to expect. But what’s wrong with trying to make more calls better? Back in the “day”, there wasn’t anything like what the umpires have for training now. Heck, it wasn’t all that long ago that something as simple a the pitcher’s mounds complying with the rules was something that happened across the board. But now teams go out and inspect every single mound, not using winks and pats on the back, but using lasers to measure things so close, the variance from mound to mound is less than its ever been.

 

Its only a moral issue in the sense that its a simple right/wrong issue. Either one believes things should be done to comply with  the ruses as closely as possible, or they don’t. I kinda like the rules, and think its pretty much a waste of time for a hitter to spend hours improving his judgment on when to swing or a pitcher on getting his timing down as perfect as possible, rather than having a moving target.

True dat Matt13! But every single play, call, player, coach, or manager has a direct impact on the direction and therefore the outcome of the game.

Agree. Looked obviously out.

Hard to understand.

I understood the process to be that the review would be in New York not at the stadium in question. If that is the case then the non reversal of that call is even worse then if Hernandez didn't reverse it.

Some plays happen too fast for the naked eye.  We have slow motion video now, so lets use it.

 

It's still early days with this in baseball.  They will get it sorted out.

 

You old fogies settle down now.  Use that 2 minutes to replace your hearing aid battery.

 

 

It has its pros and cons, I wasn't in favor of it except in close plays for playoff situations or the long ball.  As long as its not taken advantage of it can work.  I also like how it keeps the umpires on their toes (my opinion). 

 

We had a big discussion in our home a while back, funny how the player thinks that the purity has gone out of the game and the old school dad thinks its great!

 

A recent review took so long, the defensive team had to take their pitcher out. I don't like it to start, but decisions need to come back quicker. If it takes that long to decide, it should be ruled inconclusive and let the call stand.