Getting caught - Is it really worth it?

fenwaysouth posted:

As long as there is a tremendous reward (making and MLB team) there will be tremendous risk worth taking in their minds.  In my way of thinking there must also be tremendous punishment and deterrents for those that break these rules, because there are a lot of honest hard working young men trying to make an honest living in the Minors.  I have no problem with rooting out 100 or even a 1000 players if they are cheating.

Well taken point fenway.   But I wonder if baseball can actually impose penalties high enough to actually deter this sort of thing given that most minor leaguers are the functional equivalent of cannon fodder.  They are paid almost nothing, have minimal labor rights and mobility, have a very slim chance of even lasting in the minors for all that long, let alone  making it to the major leagues.  

So If you look at it in simple risk-reward terms, anything that increases your chances of making the major leagues to any significant degree would have to have a very large downside additional risk for you to decide it's not with taking the risk for a chance at the reward.   I don't know but would bet that, whatever penalties baseball manages to impose, there will always be  many, many minor leaguers  for whom the risk-reward calculation will weigh heavily in favor of running the additional downside risk for the possibility of the upside reward of landing on a major league roster.  

Positive test for "drugs of abuse" (e.g., pot) is a warning for the first test and suspension for a positive second.

Positive test for other drugs (e.g., steroids) is immediate suspension.

MLB players can smoke pot; MILB players can't. (But you could show up staggering drunk for your test and that's just fine.) Why? MLB players union. (Pot is truly a well used drug at the MLB level; it's probably better then downing a dozen beers to relax after a game (the MILB way).)

Players are well informed what supplements are fine; as someone said, they play roulette with any GNC product.

All incentives line up for guys without a chance to advance to use PEDs. There were roughly 8000 tests last year, 10% of those were out of season tests (double the number of tests four years ago).

MLB has no incentive to stamp out PEDs; its incentive is to make the public think the game is clean. If they really wanted a cleaner game, every player would be tested at the beginning of ST. Amazing stories of pitchers who added 8+ mph over the winter (obviously had some great off-season instruction); or players who gained 20 lbs of pure muscle (and are so stiff they can hardly run). 

After reading some of these responses I guess I was born in a different era. When my dad said no, he meant no. There was no questioning him afterwards. There was no "now Billy, I'm gonna count to 10 and you better stop." Or, "if you do that ONE more time, I'm gonna......" Lifetime ban a bit much? You're probably right but, how else are we going to make the public know the game is clean instead of the revolving door of whimsical nonsense that it appears now? It has to be something that is completely foudroyant for it to be lasting and make an impact. This shaking a finger at these cheaters (who do it blatantly) needs to stop and make an example of them. I don't really care how hard the upside or downside it is to either make it to the Show or flop around in the minors for years is. Everyone is on the same level playing field and those who cut corners and cheat have no place in America's greatest game. To hear anyone sit here and justify anything that makes this okay is ludicrous in my opinion. 

After reading comments like this one "Sadly, this isn't a black and white thing.  It can be done with intent and you can test positive without intent" no wonder these kids think it should just be overlooked because  they ALL have the perfect out then - I didn't know any better! LOL. 

Rules are Rules. What part of this am I missing? If you break them, you get punished. But if 100 players this year seem to think they can break the rules and  only be slapped on the wrist then there is something wrong with the rules and/or those who are making the rules. 

YoungGunDad posted:

After reading comments like this one "Sadly, this isn't a black and white thing.  It can be done with intent and you can test positive without intent" no wonder these kids think it should just be overlooked because  they ALL have the perfect out then - I didn't know any better! LOL. 

Rules are Rules. What part of this am I missing? If you break them, you get punished. But if 100 players this year seem to think they can break the rules and  only be slapped on the wrist then there is something wrong with the rules and/or those who are making the rules. 

If you knew me you would know I am the biggest rule follower there is, lol!  

What I meant was the breaking of the rules could have been unintentional.  For example, I have a friend who has trouble with alcohol.  He got into a rehab program that required him to have an alcohol ankle monitor, and was doing really well.  He had been attending all his classes, hadn't touched any alcohol in 3 months, had just really started to get his life together.  One day he ran out of deodorant and used his sons.   The fragrance in the deodorant had alcohol in it, and the alarm was triggered because he used the wrong deodorant.  He tested positive, but it was unintentional, as in WITHOUT intent.

Make more sense now?

Wish it were as simple as rules are rules.  Look the law is the law too, but lots of people have rational incentives to break the law,  if they can get away with it and the rewards for doing so are high enough.   Sure the state tries to disincentivize lawbreaking to the extent that it can.  In a perfect world the incentives would all line up in favor of not breaking the law.  But we don't live in a perfect world.  Certainly minor league ball players don't.   As long as many of them are just cannon fodder and as long as the rewards of making to the majors are high and the probability low and as long as science is what it is, there will always be those with incentives to cheat. 

At the end of the day one thing I definitely am is a realist. I understand everything you guys are saying. I truly do. I get it. It just rubs me raw I suppose that even with punitive results in place that there are still THAT many suspensions going on. I have a son out here 2 years into his early Pro career busting his butt each and every day trying to make it just one more day. And I know that he has been around a few teammates that decided it was "worth" doing something against the rules to get ahead but Im thankful my son decided his hard work would speak for his own self. Even to the point if he never plays another day. They say that integrity is doing what is right even when no one else is looking. How true and strong this characteristic is in MiLB for those players doing the right things day in and day out.

Oh you guys have no clue, wake up!  Goosegg is correct, MLB really doesn't care about this issue. Think about how many top prospects get caught, for them its just a minor setback until they reach MLB, they are going to get there anyway, but for the average milb player, its useless because more than likely they won't make it.  For them the greater risk is not earning a paycheck.  One surprising thing, for most its about recovery or battling a hidden injury, just to stay in the game not necessarily for trip to the show.

First, suspending a player for pot is ridiculous, they don't even test anymore in MLB.  Can you figure out why?  They probably should test for alcohol, as a drug of abuse.  Think Oscar Travares.

As far as getting caught for PED, they just messed up on the cycle.  They know what they are doing.   The poppy seed thing is urban myth.  As for parents thinking their sons would never do anything like that, never say never.

And FWIW, they don't get their PEDs at GNC.  

TPM posted:

 

As far as getting caught for PED, they just messed up on the cycle.  

 

Church

Shoveit4Ks posted:

TPM posted:

 

As far as getting caught for PED, they just messed up on the cycle.  

 

Church

Huh?  

Sorry, its a slang usage of the word as an "amen" to your point.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Sorry, its a slang usage of the word as an "amen" to your point.

 

OK, lol.   Schedules out and camp tomorrow and then DK home for a month!

It does mostly pay off for fringy Players. all you have to lose is a couple months of Minimum salary pay but you have to win a ton. that is especially true for latin Players from poor countries.

lets say you are a pitcher throwing 88 who mostly fills an AAA roster but otherwise has no real Chance. he has tried more Lifting and other stuff but can't really raise his Velo anymore. if that guy can get to 93 that is a huge difference for him and might get him into a MLB bullpen right away if he can locate his fastball.

that guy really has not much to lose, especially when he is already 23 and his clock was ticking anyway. either he gains the Velo and doesn't get caught (very good), he gains the Velo and does get caught (not great but after his 3 months ban he still throws 93 and might get invited) or he doesn't increase Velo and it does not matter anyway

Dominik85 posted:

It does mostly pay off for fringy Players. all you have to lose is a couple months of Minimum salary pay but you have to win a ton. that is especially true for latin Players from poor countries.

lets say you are a pitcher throwing 88 who mostly fills an AAA roster but otherwise has no real Chance. he has tried more Lifting and other stuff but can't really raise his Velo anymore. if that guy can get to 93 that is a huge difference for him and might get him into a MLB bullpen right away if he can locate his fastball.

that guy really has not much to lose, especially when he is already 23 and his clock was ticking anyway. either he gains the Velo and doesn't get caught (very good), he gains the Velo and does get caught (not great but after his 3 months ban he still throws 93 and might get invited) or he doesn't increase Velo and it does not matter anyway

Just so you know PEDs are not taken to increase velo.  Its used to stay in the game. Injury takes you out of the game, that means out of sight out of mind.  For the top prospects who will get to the show anyway..well you figure it out.

So Bonds and Mcgwire did not take roids to hit more home runs? I know there is a theory that roids are just taken to recuperate faster especially after injury (mcgwire used to use that "excuse" after he was found out) and it is true that steroids don't help you to make contact or locate a pitch but I doubt those guys suddenly hit 70 bombs just because the could Regenerate better and come back from injury better.

it is well documented that steroids do increase power Output which is why many track and field throwers have taken it in the past.

I think you are taking it too easy on the cheaters when you say they just Regenerate better. steroids were what caused the Video game numbers and not by better Regeneration but by adding 25 Pounds of muscle and 100 Pounds on your deadlift. there is no Chance that bonds would have ever hit 70 bombs without roids and I guess the increaese in average MLB pitcher Velo during the Steroid era has something to do with that too.

steroids are cheating and changing numbers and not just making your back pain heal faster. it is unfair to compare non cheaters to guys like bonds or Clemens.

I think to get rid of them you Need to make the penalties more severe so that the benefit does not outweigh the risk.

Dominik85 posted:

It does mostly pay off for fringy Players. all you have to lose is a couple months of Minimum salary pay but you have to win a ton. that is especially true for latin Players from poor countries.

lets say you are a pitcher throwing 88 who mostly fills an AAA roster but otherwise has no real Chance. he has tried more Lifting and other stuff but can't really raise his Velo anymore. if that guy can get to 93 that is a huge difference for him and might get him into a MLB bullpen right away if he can locate his fastball.

that guy really has not much to lose, especially when he is already 23 and his clock was ticking anyway. either he gains the Velo and doesn't get caught (very good), he gains the Velo and does get caught (not great but after his 3 months ban he still throws 93 and might get invited) or he doesn't increase Velo and it does not matter anyway

While you could be right in some cases, from talking to a lot of "fringy players" I don't get that sense at all.  In fact, I hear an amplified amount of frustration with players who are using PEDs and thus keeping the "fringy players" out and on the fringe.

In short, they want a level playing field as much or more than anyone else and so I don't think a stereotype works here any better than any other generalization.  It just turns out to be an individual thing IMO.

I had a friend who owns a pest control company. His favorite quote was, "If you see only ONE pest , you have a hundred more that you havent seen."

The same is true with PEDs. If they catch 100 ,imagine how many are still using that they never catch? PEDs are being used in the major Pro sports and the users are escaping detection for the most part. THAT is why so many are still using, they know others who use successfully and dont get caught. 
If everyone got caught there would be no problem, but most dont get caught. That gives hope to others that they will not be detected and for the most part , they arent detected. The banned substance list is not a secret. All PEDs are supplements but not all supplements are banned. There are a few "mistakes" no doubt. Braun did not make a mistake.

This situation mirrors the US drug problem and policies. If the "establishment" really wanted to get rid of the problem they would behave  a little differently. I hope we can all agree on that.

justbaseball posted:

Dominik85 posted:

It does mostly pay off for fringy Players. all you have to lose is a couple months of Minimum salary pay but you have to win a ton. that is especially true for latin Players from poor countries.

lets say you are a pitcher throwing 88 who mostly fills an AAA roster but otherwise has no real Chance. he has tried more Lifting and other stuff but can't really raise his Velo anymore. if that guy can get to 93 that is a huge difference for him and might get him into a MLB bullpen right away if he can locate his fastball.

that guy really has not much to lose, especially when he is already 23 and his clock was ticking anyway. either he gains the Velo and doesn't get caught (very good), he gains the Velo and does get caught (not great but after his 3 months ban he still throws 93 and might get invited) or he doesn't increase Velo and it does not matter anyway

While you could be right in some cases, from talking to a lot of "fringy players" I don't get that sense at all.  In fact, I hear an amplified amount of frustration with players who are using PEDs and thus keeping the "fringy players" out and on the fringe.

In short, they want a level playing field as much or more than anyone else and so I don't think a stereotype works here any better than any other generalization.  It just turns out to be an individual thing IMO.

yes. the majority of Players are probably still not cheating and those guys hate the cheaters.

It's not just recovery from injury.  It's also recovery between workouts.  If you use steroids properly you are able to make gains much faster (lifting, throwing, running, etc.) without burning out (you deal with the side affects).  Add that to a gifted genetic makeup and you have someone that can outperform.  Lots of users get caught because someone in the supply chain is in trouble.  PED screening programs are flawed, always have been and are easy to get around. If you have nothing else besides baseball, you'd make the same choices.

nxt lvl posted:

I had a friend who owns a pest control company. His favorite quote was, "If you see only ONE pest , you have a hundred more that you havent seen."

The same is true with PEDs. If they catch 100 ,imagine how many are still using that they never catch? PEDs are being used in the major Pro sports and the users are escaping detection for the most part. THAT is why so many are still using, they know others who use successfully and dont get caught. 
If everyone got caught there would be no problem, but most dont get caught. That gives hope to others that they will not be detected and for the most part , they arent detected. The banned substance list is not a secret. All PEDs are supplements but not all supplements are banned. There are a few "mistakes" no doubt. Braun did not make a mistake.

This situation mirrors the US drug problem and policies. If the "establishment" really wanted to get rid of the problem they would behave  a little differently. I hope we can all agree on that.

Reading your post the thing that popped into my mind was the all time favorite gun game "Russian Roulette". LOL. I agree with you guys that there ARE mistakes and it could be from a myriad of reasons so I acknowledge that here. All one has to do is go look at the suspensions and the "drug of choice" they were suspended FROM to see if it was something that could have been avoided or, was it something that they knew good and well was not okay'd or approved by MLB. For the most part it's not rocket science here. 

That example above about the pest is so right on spot. It's all the ones getting away from getting caught that encourages many others to try something, anything to help improve their performance or heal with the natural and approved methods established by teams and/or MLB. 

At the end of the day, the sad part to all of this is those that THINK they are getting away by putting substances/chemicals/flaxseed oils (lol) and many, many more things into their body will one day come to a realization they WISHED they never did. And all of that for a short time in their life when getting ahead illegally was more important than doing it above board and correctly. Their bodies will one day be their recompense and then I suppose the "getting caught" visits them.

Great thoughts everyone. I appreciate awesome, mature, and adult conversation on topics that touch us all in one way or another.

YGD