Getting Jammed

Number One, He's pretty young so I wouldn't be too concerned. I would check to see if he strides to the ball, thus, making that inside pitch up his alley. Check to also see if he swings while striding . If so try to get him to learn to have his hands back and stride down BEFORE the hands come forward. He'll get better if you work with him on timing. Once he gets to the big field then you really need to work his mechanics. I'd check to see if he's wrapping the bat behind his head as well. These are all things that I see in my teachings.

Coach,

I've filmed him quite a few times and watched his swing. He definitely does stride first before swinging. When his front foot touches his hands are at his right shoulder (he's RH). As far as wrapping, his bat head moves up behind his helmet but I wouldn't call it excessive. He never seems to be really late or really early and hits most balls between the gaps.

The one thing I'm curious about is your question "I would check to see if he strides to the ball, thus, making that inside pitch up his alley." I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Perhaps this is an issue for him but I will need you to clarify your question. Should he stride to the same spot on each pitch or should he stride, say, a little open if the pitch is inside? Is that what you're getting at?

Thanks for your help.

Jon

http://home.fuse.net/kystorm/Game%201%20pics/Jake1.JPG

See if you can view this picture of him.

Jon

Check to see if his rear elbow is up high in the launch position. This can cause a long looping swing and make it easier for some to extend too early.

Extending too early can also cause handle hits.

Work on fixing it now. It just gets harder when they get older.

Thanks for the reply. He does not start with a high back elbow though I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. He does a good job, even if he's fooled, of keeping his hands back. In this next picture it's a change up and though his back foot has come up, his hands are back. The pitcher left it up and he hit this pitch into left center for a double.

http://home.fuse.net/kystorm/Game%201%20pics/Jake2.JPG


Jon

Since his back foot is up on the change up, it may be a tip that his weight is on his front foot when he makes contact.

I'm sure it allows him to see the ball better, so the high pitch is hittable.

Have him keep his weight on his back foot when he swings and let the weight shift with the swing bringing it forward.

Willj, the advice you are getting so far, is nowhere close to what you need to know......There are no quick fixes, your son needs to learn efficient swing technique......I would suggest you contact Steve at this e-mail address.....setpro25@yahoo.com...

He can get you started on the right track.....

Yes, I'm starting to realize that.

will

The best advice you you got was above- he is young don't get too concerned at this point--

I see it this way--if he is hitting for average and with power don't try to change what isnt broken--as he matures mentally and physically he will adapt to things that he may not now--sometimes we try to get too "smart" and too "technical"

After all he is just 12 years old

Well I really don't want to overwhelm him with technical stuff, especially since he hits the ball pretty well. He has asked me how to handle the inside fastball and I don't have an answer except to open up on it which I'm not sure if the best approach. Should he open up when he strides, or should he just start open? Or should he do neither of these?

Jon

will,

You cant tell much from a still picture - but alot of younger kids (and some older ones too LOL) - particularly with aluminum bats - do not load.


They keep their hands/arms/shoulders stationary and then they just drop or throw the bat on the ball - and if they have any strength - it works with middle and away pitches.

That is what aluminum does.

It doesnt work with a little heat inside.

Does he load as the pitch approaches?

I'm not a technical expert on swing mechanics but I'll describe what I see him do...as he takes a small stride (his front foot moves forward very little), he keeps his weight centered and turns his upper half back toward the catcher a bit (I call it an inward turn). As you can see in the first picture I posted, he has put his front foot down on the ball of the foot but the heel hasn't hit yet. His upper half is still slightly closed.

Would you call that loading? Or is it just window dressing? I can't feel what he's feeling, I can only observe what he's doing.

Will,

Like I said - you cant tell much from a still picture - but in the first photo - if he did swing at that pitch - I dont believe his hands/arms were in the best hitting position - given where the ball is.

There is one fundamental factor that no one has mentioned yet (those responding may have assumed this was being done}.

Is he making contact with the inside pitch while it is ~12-18" in front of the plate? If he is initiating the swing too late, then he would seem to be getting jammed.

He did not swing at the first pitch. He swung at the second one, which was a change up that fooled him pretty badly.

I'm not sure if he's getting the inside pitch early enough. Most balls he hits are between the gaps. Occasionally he'll turn on one and drive it to straightaway left or down the line. The balls he hits down the LF line do not hook. They are straight down the line.

Not sure if any of the info tells you anything or not.

And I forgot, when he's jammed, he hits those between the 2B and SS, where most of his hits normally go. It's very confusing (at least to me).

willi - all I am saying is to make sure he gets his "hands/arms/shoulders into proper hitting position". He looks like a big strong kid - and at that age - if they have balance - some hand/eye coordination and they get themselves loaded - they will knock the **** out of the ball.

Good luck.

He's actually very athletic, even with the size. His hand-eye coordination and concentration are excellent (you can see him still focused on the ball in the first pic) and he can pick up the spin on the ball very early. I test him by throwing curves and making him call the pitch out as soon as he can.

There are a few kids on his team bigger than he is but he hits it harder than all of them. He's never had a formal hitting lesson. We've just focused on 2 or 3 key things for him to work on and it's worked great to this point. But for him to play high school baseball like he wants to he will have to continue to work to improve. The great thing is he is receptive and wants to learn. But I only know so much and so I think perhaps it's time for me to take him to someone who knows the swing better than me.

Thanks for your help.

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by willj1967:
The great thing is he is receptive and wants to learn. But I only know so much and so I think perhaps it's time for me to take him to someone who knows the swing better than me.

Thanks for your help.

Jon

Jon,

The fact that he is receptive and wants to learn is great.

And the fact that you realize that it may be time to get someone to help him is even better.

Just make sure you do your research on the folks you choose to help him.

Willj, your son needs to learn technique such as rotating into foot plant.....Weight shift momentum is something he needs to learn and understand, also....

He is probably keeping his weight on his backside....And, counter-rotating his shoulders is an improper loading process.....

Itsinthegame has given you good advice about learning how to load properly and about being careful who you choose to teach your son.........Hitting is about loading and unloading in an efficient manner....It's about moving the body properly....

I really would suggest you get in touch with Steve.....He can help you....

The players I teach for the first time are filmed from the side so I can see what he/she does with his hands, head, stride, etc.... From there you can show the player on the screen what he/she is doing and then teach the proper corrections. I start with the basics of bat selection, grip, etc...most younger players I teach 13/14 do not understand the back side explosion and usually there back foot never turns but leading up to that there are several factors that need to be taught. Just be patient.

When I asked if he was striding to the ball I meant does he stride toward the pitcher or toward the plate or where the ball is pitched.

I like John Malee's approach to the young hitters to have them stride with there foot down, not up on the balls of there feet . Its been successful for my players.

Wow, you just got a lot of advice...a lot, well, interesting advise. If he is getting jammed on the inside pitch there is only two things he needs to focus on. Hit the inside pitch well out in front of the plate and keep your hands inside the ball. That's it.

quote:

Originally posted by LouisianaTexan:
Wow, you just got a lot of advice...a lot, well, interesting advise. If he is getting jammed on the inside pitch there is only two things he needs to focus on. Hit the inside pitch well out in front of the plate and keep your hands inside the ball. That's it.

I agree with this. Try to hit the inside pitch out in front and keep hands inside the ball.

One thing I don't think has been mentioned but I feel is very important, is pitch anticipation. Have him look for and anticipate that pitch. If he doesn't get it, don't swing (unless he has 2 strikes). If he is going up to the plate with the plan of hitting any strike it is just to hard to cover both the inside and outside of the plate.

Comments about loading and unloading are right on. Even when learning to unload, a young hitter may get his hands too far away from his body. Hands inside the ball at contact are indeed important, but check his hand position when he begins unloading. They should be near his shoulders and at max 3-5 inches away from his body. They should stay close to the body all thru the swing and then inside the baseball. Good luck and be patient.

Coachblu, backside explosion?......I couldn't resist telling you this is really bad advice for any hitter.....

And, I can tell you don't understand the purpose of the stride....

Have you ever heard of rotation into footplant?......Weight shift momentum?....

For a 12 year old, I don't think we need to make it too compicated. I would just start with the fence drill, it will keep his swing short and keep his hands inside the ball. Only an educated guess without seeing a video though.

Blue Dog,
Explaining hitting is difficult enough having a player in front of you let alone trying to word things properly. Since your the hitting critic here please explain your theories here for me as your student. Thank You. AND YES, I do understand what questions your asking. This is a 12 year old kid were talking about.

Spinedoc, I would suggest to you to scrap the fence drill.....Promotes disconnection....

Coachblu, in all due respect, I have posted many posts explaining just what you are asking.....

Thank You. In all due respect could you tell us your credentials and what coaches you have learned from. Do you have a DVD that might help all us "incorrect" coaches. Unlike the "know it all" posting information I HAVEN'T found the best possible way yet so I'm still searching and when I find something that I've learned that works better I try it myself before teaching it. I have DVD's galore, been to pro camps, college camps etc and you know, there not showing me what I'm still searching for. I'm considering the Peavy and Englishbey
DVD's now. They seem to do some different things in teaching the hitting answers I'm looking for.

I'm still SEARCHING for the ANSWERS to be the BEST I can be. I'm not sitting back feeling I know it all because the percentages are still against us all. The ONE thing we can do for all our hitters is give them CONFIDENCE. I'm batting a thousand there.

quote:

Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
Thank You. In all due respect could you tell us your credentials and what coaches you have learned from. Do you have a DVD that might help all us "incorrect" coaches. Unlike the "know it all" posting information I HAVEN'T found the best possible way yet so I'm still searching and when I find something that I've learned that works better I try it myself before teaching it. I have DVD's galore, been to pro camps, college camps etc and you know, there not showing me what I'm still searching for. I'm considering the Peavy and Englishbey
DVD's now. They seem to do some different things in teaching the hitting answers I'm looking for.

I'm still SEARCHING for the ANSWERS to be the BEST I can be. I'm not sitting back feeling I know it all because the percentages are still against us all. The ONE thing we can do for all our hitters is give them CONFIDENCE. I'm batting a thousand there.

Amen.

There are many ways to teach and many theories out there. Offering suggestions and advice is great, but to degrade others that their theories or practices are wrong is just not right. It is ok to agree to disagree, but don't bash others. It isn't very professional and makes you look bad, whether you have more knowledge or not.

GOOD LUCK on getting The Dog to go in depth on anything besides what is actually printed in his book, or is spoken on his "guys" DVD....

he and another on here used to just blurt out negative comments at everyone, but never explained anything... I offered my phone number to him to discuss the difference in our philosophies - to see if it was same thing just said in different way - never heard my phone ring...

to me, it is teaching what you see at the Major League level... and getting players to do it. I'm not sure who The Dog work with or for, but I guess if he is getting his players to succeed, that is the main key - reaching overall future potential...

his buddy used to tell me that it is about scapular rotation, not shoulder rotation - i didn't have the heart to expalin to him anatomically they are the same thing.. that's why it is referred to as the "shoulder blade."

also his partner-in-crime explained to me their theory was getting started with the pelvis - not using legs at all except for foundation to rotate on.. so I emailed his partner all of the major muscles that "act" on the pelivis - oddly enough they all connect at one end on pelvis and the other end at the knee - now correct me if I am wrong, but don't we refer to that region as the leg? yet the leg is just there for foundation?

He and his buddy told me my theories are completely incorrect... though I have worked with well over 300 players that were either soph, juniors, or seniors and all -that's 100%- have gone to college on scholarship. I have had 13 players drafted in the last two years, one in the 1st round, two in the second round... I have clients that i have worked with since their early high school days - 14 currently in the minors, and three on major league rosters.. i have 54 former clients currently playing in college right now...

The bottom line is get the players to reach their overall potential. Three key parts of hitting; learn how to properly use lower body to support upper body in the swing, properly teach how to keep hands "inside" the path of baseball, and to properly teach how to make the plane of your swing match the path the ball is taking to homeplate for longest amount of time (or greatest distance).

One thing you learn on here is that some people just put others down just to do so and act like God almighty on here... others use this as a forum to learn/teach other who want to question/learn.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Spinedoc, I would suggest to you to scrap the fence drill.....Promotes disconnection....

I guess I don't see to big of a problem with dosconnection with the fence drill if used properly. I use it more as a reminder than anything, and I think it is more a drill to learn a basic swing path, how you incorporate it into your swing is more of a BP thing.

If you are impartial to the fence drill, have you had any experience with the Procut bat weights. I have seen several kids that had long casting swings shorten them up with the handle weights. At the same time, I think donut weights actually encourage casting, simple physics tells you that adding weight to the "hitting end" of the bat will pull your hands away from your center of gravity.

Any opinions??

Spinedoc, learn the bio-mechanics and motor skills involved in a high level swing....It's about knowing how to move the body in an efficient manner to be able the swing the bat effectively with consistency and power.....

Connection and posture play a key role.....Any drill which encourages the hands and arms to be proactive are bad drills.....

Diablo, you used to preach swing on the plane of the pitch...Until, I proved to you that a pitch doesn't have a plane......

Now, you say, swing on the path of the pitch....If the pitch is a 12 to 6 curve ball, do you swing straight up?.....

I really want to hear your answer.....

quote:

Originally posted by willj1967:
Well I really don't want to overwhelm him with technical stuff, especially since he hits the ball pretty well.

Jon

Bluedog
You have to realize the question that is being asked, you are not trying to answer his question. He and his 12 YEAR OLD SON don't want to be overwhelmed by "technical stuff". I was trying to give a few helpful hints that have worked with many players that I know without giving him a Doctoral Thesis on the clinical biomechanics of the baseball swing.

I will admit that I enjoy much of the ****** information, but you will never be able to teach it in that manner over the internet. I have a BS in Human Biology and I am a college Anatomy and Physiology professor who lectures nationally on balance and proprioception, and you are losing me.

I believe that it is the perfect example of paralysis by analysis.

I agree that if someone doesn't understand this stuff, they shouldn't try to teach it......

The trick is to research enough to understand it....

The only way is the Blue Dog way and still nobody knows who he is other to be a shill for a some GURU

He answers questions with questions and degrading remarks--I truly think he is a cyberspace instructor and has never taught kids one on one.

Real Life Experience VS Lab Guys

TRhit, get the feeling nobody's listening?....

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
He answers questions with questions and degrading remarks--I truly think he is a cyberspace instructor and has never taught kids one on one.

I know I wouldn't send any kid I know to him. With an attitude that looks down on everyone else, I can deal without that.

As I stated before, I am all for someone who agrees to disagree and can see others views, but to think there is only one way to do things is just closed minded. Hitting is like many things in life, there are many ways to do things, it is just a matter of finding a way that you believe in, have confidence with, and ultimately brings the results that are desired.

Do you people think Diablo will answer my question?.....So, we can all learn something...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Do you people think Diablo will answer my question?.....So, we can all learn something...

At this point, I don't really care. Unless, you can see his side without degrading him and preaching your one-sided slants.

On another note, if I were the "GURU" you are the "shill" for, I certainly wouldn't be too happy with the way you try to endorse the product.

Moving on....

Hits for high average , likes the ball middle away. Seems to get jammed alot on balls inside. Lets see I have not seen anyone that did not like balls down the middle so rule that one out. Likes pitches away. Now theres a clue. It could be he likes pitches away because he has success hitting those pitches right? Now I have to assume at his age it is not because he has mastered letting the ball get deep and driving it to the opposite field. It probaly has more to do with the fact that he has a long swing and he is getting the barrell to the ball late which is actually working to his advantage on balls away. Is he hitting the balls down the middle back up the middle and to the rcf gap area? If so the long swing is working again to his advantage in this respect keeping him from pulling pitches he should be hitting back up the middle. This would also work to his disadvantage on balls inside. Having a long swing would cause him to be late on balls inside causeing him to get jammed on balls that a good hitter would turn on. If not corrected this long swing will not allow him to be sucessfull when he starts facing good velocity. Most good young hitters have no problem pulling the ball and usually feast on balls inside and pull most pitches down the heart. And they struggle with outside pitches usually pulling them. The last thing a good young hitter usually masters is hitting the outside pitch to the opposite field by letting it get deeper in the zone. My observation just from your post is I would focus on him either casting on the swing , loading or unloading late a timing issue and bat plane entering the zone - could be a combination of all three. Put him on a T and place the T on the inside corner of the plate. Put the ball 4 or 5 inches in front of the plate and let him get some swings in. See how consistently he makes good hard contact on the barrell of the bat. Now do the same thing but put the ball right at the front of the plate down the middle and then do the same with the ball about midway of the plate on the outside. See if he makes the same amount of good consistent hard contact on the barrell at all locations. Im betting that he hits the middle and away much better. If he does then you will have some good feedback. If he hits all locations equally well then you may just have a timing issue which is probaly contributed to loading late and unloading improperly. Good Luck to you and by all means I do not know it all. If anyone acts like they do then you definitely want to avoid any advice they give you thats for sure because they probaly have no clue whatsoever.

Great Post Coach May. peace, Shep

Blue Dog


Do you ?????

Please do not ever get near any of my players--you are a sham

Will

Have you thought about trying to change the hand position . It looks like he is starting out with his hands kind of low . Try having him raise his hands to about ear level . You might find he will have a better path to the ball and not jam himself so much .

BLUE DOG-

plane of pitch, path of pitch - six of one, half dozen of another.. say either and everyone knows what you are talking about...

through prior knowledge, your swing gradient is based on where you feel ball will be (and its path or plane) at a point in space...

you and your pimp never answered my question about the muscles that act on the pelvis - you know the ones that run from pelvic bone, to knee...

and i guess you are still preaching no torque in a swing anywhere?? i believe you said there never has been torque in a swing an never will be?? yes?? and torque is two forces acting on an object in opposite directions, yes? like lower body open, top half closed (torque on abdominals, upper thigh), when swing finishes, what slows a body down? torque? how do you get flat palms when swing is started? You do realize that for a bat head to get from a "vertical/oblique" position to horizintal to whatever it is going to be during swing, that there has to be hand torque - there no other way to change where bat head is unless you just let go of the bat completely...

are you still using video of M.E.'s clients to prove your philosophy? Do you have W***? Did you see the clip in game against Nationals where Andrew Jones and Chipper Jones were showing their swing mechanics to "reporter," and talking about heal drop and elbow slotting? Both M.E.'s clients - as they mentioned what he (ME) has done for them over the last five years... it was good stuff...

of course by your standards.. apparently the Jones boys are idiots...

Coach May, you're telling people who they should listen to and at the same time telling them to work on a timing issue by hitting off a tee?........Did you think about this before posting?......

And, Shepster, you're giving this so-called advice a vote of confidence?....

Sulltiger, higher hands will cause a problem, not fix one....

Diablo, can you explain why it is a good thing to have the bat in the path of the ball for as long as possible?

TRhit, you are not being nice, at all......

quote:

are you still using video of M.E.'s clients to prove your philosophy? Do you have W***? Did you see the clip in game against Nationals where Andrew Jones and Chipper Jones were showing their swing mechanics to "reporter," and talking about heal drop and elbow slotting? Both M.E.'s clients - as they mentioned what he (ME) has done for them over the last five years... it was good stuff...

Sorry late to party...

So Diablo..are you saying the Jones boys ARE MIKE EPSTEIN clients??

BLUEDOG

We should name you "QUASI G O D" because you know all and nobody else does

As for nice--look in the mirror and I bet you don't see that "pretty" face you use--

Why do you try to make thisd a contest regarding who is "better"--- that deos not matter--the key is to help players and coaches and in my mind you do neither--can we say SHILL ???

Blue Dog-

Not necessarily trying to say keep bat in path "longer".. mean on path of ball for greater distance (area)... for arguments-sake... if a fastball was coming in on a downward path of eight degrees from pitcher to catcher.. then if you could get the bathead traveling to ball on same eight-degree path (though it would be an upslope) you would have much more room (area) to make contact if timing wasn't perfect (or if it was for that matter). opposed to the extreme opposite of if ball was on same path (eight degrees to catcher) and a player started swing downward at say 30-40 degrees, the actual area to even make contact would be basically the width of the ball (opposed to earlier it would be extended to 18-24 inches [estimating])

basically just a greater chance of making contact, greater chance at success.

and SULLTIGER, Blue is right... higher hands will just cause more problems... one hopefully player is not swinging down from a higher hand slot (bad).

Outside of everyone's pre-swing movements, there is a universal launch position for a reason....

Diablo

Dont really understand how you can say a higher hand position would automatically cause more of a problem . What kind of problem are you talking about ? Check out most major league hitters ...you wont see too many of them starting with their hands at the upper chest or lower neck level . You will see their hands at or around ear level and some even higher than that . Thats a much better position to drive those hands thru the zone and get the barrel out where it is supossed to be and reduce the chance of getting jammed or jamming yourself unnecesarrily . When you are in the process of loading up the hands should be up at that level and back...not low and in a forward position.
When i looked at the picture that will had up of his son , the first thing i noticed was how low he had his hands . Its fairly obvious that he is going to have a hard time getting the bat around on any pitches middle on in from that starting position. I think you want to teach kids the proper way and have them work at it ....not what might be easier .

Blue Dog and Diablo...im going to have to disagree with you . Im sure many hitting instructors would also tend to disagree if they come upon this thread.

sull

I am in accord with you--many hitters have the hands starting at shoulder level or above

Sulltiger, take a look at Bonds' hands.....

The first move any MLB hitter makes before swinging is to lower the hands.....And, I did say, before swinging......

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/bonds/flash.htm

Bonds' hands never reach his shoulders...Armpits only...

Sull, TRhit agrees with you....There's reason enough to change your beliefs....

"Im sure many hitting instructors would also tend to disagree if they come upon this thread."

Sull, those same hitting instructors are clueless, if I may be so bold.....

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac01.mpeg

Where are these hands?...High???....Low????

Blue Dog did you think I was talking to you? Why? As far as timeing issues working off a T - Of course you can if you know how to teach hitting off of a T properly.

Hitting off of a T properly - See the pitcher out in front of you. Find the baseball (in his glove - in his hand etc ) Load the bat and track the pitch to the zone following it all the way to the point of contact. Never look at the T. See the ball off the bat at contact.

Blue Dog where did you play? Where do you coach? Where have you coached? Who have you instructed? Who do you instruct?

We play Tuesday night in the State Playoffs I will be glad to give you directions to the field. You can also go to NCPreps.com and check out the stats of some of our players. Three who are in the top of the state in Avg Rbi's and HR's.

Where can we come to see the kids that you have instructed?

BlueDog

that is one hitter and who knows where you started the frame !!!

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bernie_Williams2.mpeg

Hands high????...Low????.....

quote:

See the ball off the bat at contact.

Coach May, you can't be serious?...You really believe this is possible???

Blue Dog

Instead of saying it aint so tell us why it aint so if you can

"It takes good eyesight, years of practice, good concentration," Johnson says. But in the final analysis, he says even good hitters are simply making well-educated guesses. "You've already committed yourself to swing at a particular point and a particular time. It's just a question of whether the ball happens to be there."

Adair says that when a fastballer such as Randy Johnson throws a pitch in the high 90s, the hitter has only about two-tenths of a second from the time the ball leaves his hand to process "the last information that does you any conceivable good whatsoever" — and then swing.

"After two-tenths of a second, they can turn out the lights in the stadium," Adair says, "and it won't affect your hitting him at all"

Watch the ball to the bat????....You've got to be kidding......Or just ill-informed.....

Coach May

He won't answer you regarding the invite for info--he can't

By the way Coach I never received the info from you---do you have the correct email---TRhit@msn.com

Bluedog

How about Albert Puhols...the best hitter in baseball...where does he have his hands??

I dare you to tell me that he has his hands LOW

Tiger, all MLB hitters swing with hands at the armpit, not shoulders......It's simply high level swing technique....

Why do you struggle understanding this??...

This stuff is basic, very basic.....

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro;jsessionid=toux...&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=19&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

We were talking about a starting position for the hands .

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=8&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bonds01.mpeg

These hands start high?.......

Not a bad hitter.....

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=2&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Start high?....

Tiger, throw those last two hitters inside and see what happens......

TR,

I bet you remember this kid from Long Island who held the bat above the shoulder.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=18&w=4&n=1&c=4&m=24&s=0&y=1&z=9&l=0

That bat gets lowered to his armpits way before he starts swinging.....

BlueDog,

On the topic of hand position...agree that most MLB hitters launch from arm pit/rear shoulder area regardless of hand position prior to pitch which is more of a comfort thing.

Is it fair to say that launch position of hands remains constant regardless of pitch location as adjusting one's posture should set swing plane?

NYdad, yes......That's correct.....

BlueDog, thank you sir...

NYdad, the load in the shoulders should hold the arm and hand position at a constant position during the swing....

And, the shoulder load should be held until ball contact.....At that point, everything gets released into the ball.....Posture playing a crucial role....

The reason the hands should not be above the armpit is because they need to go back and in, not just back.....Bonds is a great example to study on this.....He actually brings his hands in, then back......

Get some tension in the scapulas when you walk into the box...Set the box (hands and arms) with a scapula load right off.....

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
Blue Dog where did you play? Where do you coach? Where have you coached? Who have you instructed? Who do you instruct?

Where can we come to see the kids that you have instructed?

I would be very surprised to see a reply to this one!!! Nothing yet.

Doggie,

Scapula this and rotate that. LOL

As MC Hammer said - "Cant touch this".

Its Hammer time. LOL
On the field - not on the web.

Now - Break It Down!

Bluedog,

Now that I am not moderating anymore - I hope you know I am just having fun with you.

Like skeet shooting

You cant use the moderating angle as a defense anymore.

Just "mano a mano" now brother. Like old times.

Just move and slide - Break it down!

Its Hammer Time

LOL

CatchingCoach, are you another one of those High School coaches who sit back and teach old technique?

Blue dog makes a very important observation:

"The reason the hands should not be above the armpit is because they need to go back and in, not just back.....Bonds is a great example to study on this.....He actually brings his hands in, then back."

It is important to understand more,in my opinion, about the HOW and WHY of "getting the hands in"

I find it is most useful thinking of this "analytically" (cause and effect) :

The perfect swing is about the adjustment you make (Epstein).

The more outside the pitch, the longer the handpath radius (radius of "CHP"/load/resistance to rotation- Mankin).

The more outside the pitch,the more the hands need to load IN (learning from plane control in golf).

The more inside out the plane (more the hands are in),the more the weight must shift forward (golf).

The more outside the location in hitting,the more weight shifts forward (TO front leg- Lau,more front leg flex - Mankin).

When you "wind the rubberband" (which is the right kind of "rotation into toe touch" where the hips are turning open lead by the front leg turning open so front foot is open at toetouch with weight slightly forward - Epstein)the lead leg is synched/slaved to the "up and over" of the hands (synched/simutaneous EXternal rotation of back arm and lead leg, arm "permitting" leg to go first (arm action is King) to increase rate of body coil during "rubberbband winding" to get right dynamic coil/stretch (rate of stretch needs to steadily increase until end of "cusp" - xfactor stretch/skilltechnologies).

To prepare for a well timed and synched "up and over"/load/coil,what is more essential than absolute position of hands is a UNIVERSAL "arm action sequence" (Hodge- which applies to overhand throw as well).

Back forearm is pronated before/during inward turn (and kept that way,back palm facing pitcher,bat tilted forward some),back arm (and front leg) is internally rotated as hips cok (and kept that way,back arm is aBducted (back elbow comes up) and extended (back elbow points more behind) as back scap loads and pinches some toward spine.

This is the point in the swing where swing radius is set determingin handpath radius and how inside out swing plane will be. Front leg ABducts/legs spread.Hip still coked,hand still coked.

All this preparation is universally necessary for a high level segmented swing (kinetic link powered) so the rubber band can be next wound (bincrease creation of xfactor then xfactor stretch) by well timed and synchronized external rotation of back arm and lead leg as you wind the rubber band going into toe touvh with the weight slightly forward and the front foot opening".

This will then be folowed by drop and tilt where tepo/synch/conversion of weight shift becomes essential.

These universal sequences and requirements can overlap in a way that back elbow and hand position are NOT absolute, but there ARE limits as recognized by Blue dog

I think it is best to think of these as functional rather than spatial limits. The location of elbows/hands/arms/bat can vary as long as the sequence and tempo are not lost/prevented.

In most cases old technique is not different from todays technique--only the words and terms used are different--it is still all the same--baseball is baseball

SullTiger/TRhit

on the hands from page 3, I was saying that if your launch position (of hands) was high (above shoulders or whereever) than that is typically going to cause many more problems...(because swing path would be on a downward plane - to a ball that is traveling down) the universal launch position - key word LAUNCH - is basically at armpit... i think when you are talking about MLB players having high hands... you are looking at some players pre-swing movements/positions.... because the swing happens so quickly, i do not think alot of people actually noticea lot of what actually goes on in a swing... i.e. elbow working up, back elbow tucked, body lean, shoulder tilt, etc...

even the Keeper-of-the-Gold (Julio Franco) got his hands in the universal launch position, and his hands ( in pre-swing) were very high...

And whoever (can't remember who) said to see the ball at contact - umm, basically impossible.. unless you have been trained to actually do that... which won't help anyways... at the US Olympic SOftball team just found out - because you can't make an adjustment to ball once it is within about 15ft of homeplate anyways...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Tiger, all MLB hitters swing with hands at the armpit, not shoulders......It's simply high level swing technique....

Why do you struggle understanding this??...

This stuff is basic, very basic.....

Albert Pujols

When you are saying that all ML hitters swing with their hands at their armpits and not at their shoulders, you should clarify.

Pujols' hands are above his shoulders when his swing starts.If you are talking about where the hands are at impact or various other places in the swing, then you should be specific. When his bat starts moving forward, his hands are above his shoulders and not at the armpits, and this clip proves it.

I agree with TR that at least since Jackson,Ruth,etc things have been very much the same.

Describing it in words remains a challenge.

The approach of developing a lingo based on slowmo video with support of other tools like motionanalysis and pressure plate measurements where needed to understand how things relate in more detail is probably as good as it will get for a while.

There has probably been some tuning of emphasis on quickness with a light/short/choke up being the preferred club now with more batcoking/ "centering" as opposed to how the old heavy war clubs were handled.

Here is another important golf learning regarding "plane" of swing/"path" of ball.

In addition to length of "contact zone" where timing error will be more or less likely to produce a fair ball, the golf concept of "compression" is an important one. A more efficient club/ball collision imparts more energy to the ball.

The bat head imparts MORE energy to the ball during the collision IF the direction of the bat is lined up with the path of the ball (dependency on velocity which has a direction/vector component) so that idaelly the bat cuts across the path of the ball less at contact.

This is a BIG advantage for the "early batspeed" swing optimized for "quickness" as this permits waiting on the ball while adjusting plane/trajectory of swing where the bat can line up/compress the ball well for a large proportion of the strike zone.

This early batspeed/setting contact point back (shorter swing path without sacrificing batspeed due to efficient acCeleration of bathead) also permits keeping the ball fair while standing as far back in the batter's box as possible which gives more time if needed (and situation/pitcher) allows.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
CatchingCoach, are you another one of those High School coaches who sit back and teach old technique?

I instruct hitters on ways to be successful at the plate plain and simple. I wouldn't say I sit back and do anything. I instruct 4-5 hours per day, travel all over the country to clinics, etc., and am very active with baseball in my community, which does include coaching at a very successful HS program. I also had a very solid playing career. BUT, I never preach that my way is the only road to success like your ego driven self.

Enough about me, tell me about yourself. I do believe you were the one asked a question. Weren't you ever taught never to answer a question with a question.

bbscount - that pitch is also pretty high in the zone, so I believe Pujols was making an early adjustment.
jmo...

Where he starts his swing does not have anything to do with an early adjustment. He starts them (Hands) the same way all the time. An adjustment to a pitch comes later in the swing of a high or low pitch.

What I see in the Pujols clip is he adjusts his posture to pitch location during rotation...