Good player but high school politics means no playing time

I think he needs to play on a good travel team, so the Evoshield Canes are a great start.  But realize they are a top team in the country.  I don't know your son, but you may want to see what other teams are around.  he needs to be on a team where his skills fit the team.  being on a top team with no playing time will not help him.  Hopefully others from your area can recommend other travel options.  

And just so you can have some perspective:   My son changed schools in 10th grade and was not allowed to play varsity because of Georgia rules.  But he played for a great travel team and is now a HS senior with a baseball scholarship.  He did play varsity as a junior, but all recruiting came from schools seeing him play travel.

While high school ball provided my 2018 some exposure, the most exposure came with his travel team.

I'm not sure if this is the "hitting clinic in Fredericksburg" that you are referring to, but the best in the area is Pinnacle Baseball Academy near Riverbend High School. There is also a recently developed tie-in between Pinnacle and Evoshield, so that may help too.

http://www.pinnacle-baseball.com/

 

Have been waiting to see replies and had expected someone to to repeat earlier recommendation to have your son speak with his coach and get an indication of his current role and what he can do to gain more playing time.  The veil of politics, IMO, begins to lift as players migrate to varsity and the coach decides to play the very bet kids based on his assessment.  You did mention having moved several times so I assume the current coach does not have an extensive history with you kid, but may have worked with other juniors and seniors for several years.  there will be some level of "loyalty" where if your kid is tied with another kid who grew up in the program, that other kid just might get the nod.  

No offense, but your comment about the one at bat has little to no bearing on the discussion nor does what the "other" parents are saying (they may just be really nice folks or have kids that are in a similar situation).  During his AB, he apparently had three teammates get on base ahead of him to allow his RBIs, so they should get most of the credit.  He does not need a coach's recommendation in most instances (assuming you are referring to HS coach) and summer ball will largely drive the recruiting process.

Maybe some info on where he plays versus other established players on the team.  Your kid, as the newcomer, needs to demonstrate - to his coach - beyond doubt that he can contribute more to the team's winning than some other player.  If your kid can gain an appreciation for what his coach likes/dislikes about him and how this stacks up against others, then he can work towards convincing the coach and highlight the attributes that are desired and diminish the attributes that are not.

Thanks for reply. Hitting clinic is called "Starting Lineup" not "Pinnacle
Academy".
Checking out Pinnacle Academy. Also can you help me find travel teams ?

Rick

Have your son get on a good travel team.    The Canes are certainly good, and they have different levels of teams, but don't think if you see "Fredericksburg, VA" they are just from that area.  They are a national organization, primarily from the east coast/mid states area.

Other possible travel teams (as per your other post):

Virginia Cardinals (Midlo Dad and R. Graham post on this site)

Richmond Braves (don't let the name fool you; the players are not all from Richmond)

RBA South; RBA West

....and there are others in the Tidewater region that I am less familiar with.  PM me if you need contact info to the above organizations, but a quick Google search will get you there.

Politics is a loaded word on this site, in more ways than one.  If I thought my son had skill I would ask my son why he wasn't playing much.  His response would likely be "I dunno", and my response would be "Then go find out."

FYI, high school stats are mostly meaningless to college coaches because high school competition varies WIDELY.  Imagine you are a coach, a kid says "My on OBP was .800 last year" the coach thinks, wow, that's a great number.  Then the kid follows up with "Yeah, and those seniors were throwing at LEAST 65 miles per hour!"....and then the coach tries very hard not to laugh.

Welcome to the site, Rick,

I'll second 2017's message...

All players will face big hurdles on a regular basis, particularly if their goal is college ball and/or beyond.  The goal should be "leave no doubt".  Work to be so much better than the next guy, there will be no doubt who should be playing... not in the parent's mind but in the coach's mind.

And, yes, results of one AB or even good stats over a season of JV may have no bearing on his standing in regards to V and certainly no bearing in regards to college.  Consider the possibility that "parents in the stands" comments may have been common courtesy (what else are they gonna say?) or reference to the thought that it doesn't make sense for anyone on JV to not play, regardless of abilities, unless there are other issues.  

I don't know your son but i suspect there may be a disconnect between your perception of his abilities and actual.   It doesn't add up that a JV player who is not getting steady PT, even with the worst of political scenarios, would be looking to be picked up by one of the strongest travel programs in the country.  So, besides continuing to work hard to be the best he can be and leaving no doubt, I suggest getting a neutral opinion from someone qualified to assess his abilities, strengths and weaknesses and advise (not a current coach or instructor - they have motivating factors to be less critical.)  Ask that evaluator to lean toward the side of overly critical.  Then, find a suitable travel program and good instruction.  And work your butt off.  Not once in a while.  Commit.

I am a HS coach and I have several kids who are sort of in the same boat, languishing as tweeners.  Some totally take the bull by the horns and change their destiny, some make modest efforts to change, some are just there to be with the guys and some "are being terribly wronged by politics" or have some other "reason" they are not in a better position with the team/program.  Which will he be?

BTW, I have a few of those guys this year that really committed between 10th and 11th grade and the results are really amazing and inspiring.  They will still have to battle for the PT they desire but they have thrust themselves into the equation.

 

quizzkid57 posted:

Thanks for reply. Hitting clinic is called "Starting Lineup" not "Pinnacle
Academy".
Checking out Pinnacle Academy. Also can you help me find travel teams ?

Rick

Rick,

Concur with above comments.  You've got to think out of the box here:  you've got Wash DC an hour north of you, and Richmond, VA an hour south of you.  There must be plenty of teams to contact, start googling, get on PG and PBR and play around with their data base.  Go look at the kids that are in the top 100 of your state or neighboring state, what teams do they play for?  Call those team and baseball programs, look them up online, they'll have tons of info regarding their program along with contact information.  They'll have rosters of kids, look some of them up, any of them have offers, any of those teams play at any of the top PG events?  Look at top summer and fall events for teams who participated, not necessarily for the teams that got to the semi's, but the other teams that could be within an hour or so from your home.  Every team has the occasional injury and they're looking for another MIF, or OF, or P, so it would be worth your while to contact them.  

Just brainstorming here... you should be able to generate a list of teams just off of what I've said.  You've work to do.  You might get lucky with a few recommendations here, but I would not be waiting around, attack this.

Another idea: find a top instructor at one of the top programs in D.C., or Richmond, have them provide an objective assessment of your son's capabilities:  bat, glove, speed combined with size and strength. That same instructor may have some ideas or recommendations. Maybe get your son to a local college camp in Jan or Feb, how does he stack up vs those kids?  Maybe get him to a regional showcase.  Get some objective eyes on him.  You won't have to spend much money to find out if your kid is college material, or at what level of college material.  Oh, and how are his grades?  

Good luck.

 (edit: typo)

As others have said, your best road to exposure is a good travel/showcase team that plays in the right events.

As far as his HS dilemma, has he talked with the coach?  Not you, but him?  At the end of last season he should have asked the coach what he needed to work on during the off season to earn more playing time.  BTW, don't get stuck on the one at bat, yes a 3 run single is nice, but its only 1 ab.  My son was in a similar situation last year.  Our HS coach prefers his Sr's.  At almost every position there was a Jr who was a better player, yet the Sr's played all year.   The Jr's won the State summer championship when they were Soph's, and ran to the quarter's this past summer after their Jr year.  My son asked him what he needed to do to earn more playing time.  Coaches answer was "I like the known, not the unknown, you are doing everything correct.  You just need to wait your turn and when your a Sr you will get your playing time".   There maybe something similar going on with your son's HS team.  My son took the attitude of, I will control what I can control and do what I can when I get in the game.  The coach has told my wife how much he respects the way my son handled the year.

Rick,

GOV gave some great info here as have others. 

IMHO, high school stats carry little to no weight.  A HS coach's recommendation can carry some if they are known to a college coach...but my guys' HS coaches were never contacted by any college coach.

I'll disagree with the idea that the "best" exposure is with a good travel team playing in the "right events".  My guys never did that and they play in college. 

But they did play on travel teams in addition to their high school teams.  Exposure to college coaches can come from travel teams AND / OR it can come from an individual doing camps and showcases.  There's not a single, right path.  My guys were never seen at a team event, only individual showcases.  But other kids are seen on their travel teams.

All kids can benefit from individual training:  baseball skills, strength, speed, agility, etc.  I strongly recommend that kids who want to play in college do individual work.

And kids benefit from team practices and games.  If your guy does not, for whatever reason, get much high school playing time, then getting that playing time in the Summer and Fall becomes much more important.  And it doesn't need to be in a great program like the Canes, though that would be wonderful.  He needs game reps if he's not getting them in HS. 

As GOV notes, he should get on some team.  And get playing time which helps develop skills.  It may also get him noticed.  But maybe it doesn't.  Maybe your son will need to attend individual camps and showcases to get college exposure.

Good luck!

quizzkid57 posted:

Thanks for reply. Hitting clinic is called "Starting Lineup" not "Pinnacle
Academy".
Checking out Pinnacle Academy. Also can you help me find travel teams ?

Rick

PM sent.

FFXfireman posted:

While high school ball provided my 2018 some exposure, the most exposure came with his travel team.

I'm not sure if this is the "hitting clinic in Fredericksburg" that you are referring to, but the best in the area is Pinnacle Baseball Academy near Riverbend High School. There is also a recently developed tie-in between Pinnacle and Evoshield, so that may help too.

http://www.pinnacle-baseball.com/

 

What makes them the "best"?

Branson Baseball posted:

Rick,

GOV gave some great info here as have others. 

IMHO, high school stats carry little to no weight.  A HS coach's recommendation can carry some if they are known to a college coach...but my guys' HS coaches were never contacted by any college coach.

I'll disagree with the idea that the "best" exposure is with a good travel team playing in the "right events".  My guys never did that and they play in college. 

But they did play on travel teams in addition to their high school teams.  Exposure to college coaches can come from travel teams AND / OR it can come from an individual doing camps and showcases.  There's not a single, right path.  My guys were never seen at a team event, only individual showcases.  But other kids are seen on their travel teams.

All kids can benefit from individual training:  baseball skills, strength, speed, agility, etc.  I strongly recommend that kids who want to play in college do individual work.

And kids benefit from team practices and games.  If your guy does not, for whatever reason, get much high school playing time, then getting that playing time in the Summer and Fall becomes much more important.  And it doesn't need to be in a great program like the Canes, though that would be wonderful.  He needs game reps if he's not getting them in HS. 

As GOV notes, he should get on some team.  And get playing time which helps develop skills.  It may also get him noticed.  But maybe it doesn't.  Maybe your son will need to attend individual camps and showcases to get college exposure.

Good luck!

Can I get an Amen!

Redsdad posted:

FFXfireman posted:

While high school ball provided my 2018 some exposure, the most exposure came with his travel team.

I'm not sure if this is the "hitting clinic in Fredericksburg" that you are referring to, but the best in the area is Pinnacle Baseball Academy near Riverbend High School. There is also a recently developed tie-in between Pinnacle and Evoshield, so that may help too.

http://www.pinnacle-baseball.com/

 

What makes them the "best"?

As with most things on this site, it's based on personal opinion, the opinion of some college coaches, what has proven true with my own son and what I have heard from others in similar situations that have tried places elsewhere. 

I guess better terminology would be, "the best in my opinion is..."

quizzkid57 posted:

We moved to small rural county King George VA last year and he  made JV team in 10th grade. Never played all season until last game.  Other parents and players do not understand why he never played; so this is not my, his Father, opinion.  He drove in 3 runs single time up at  bat in last game.

How can he get playing time and a coach's recommendations to play college ball?  Or even just get basic stats? 

Academics are excellent and he is in 11th grade looking at colleges, most likely division III.  Tried out for Evoshield Canes but they have not answered emails asking for his stats. Currently attending hitting clinic in Fredericksburg.  Moved several times in last few years; Iowa to NJ to VA.

Thanks,

Rick

 

Rick - PM sent.

My son was on JV as a freshman as were other top freshman. Due to a shortage of quality catching in the program a freshman who really wasn't ready for JV ball was the second catcher. 

So he wouldn't be overwhelmed he only played against the worst teams in the conference. His mother walked the sidelines complaining to anyone who would listen.

"My son has the highest batting average on the team. He should be playing all the time and batting fourth. He's always had the highest batting average on every team he's played. ** He should be the varsity catcher next year. 

** Not true in middle school. Guess who coached and kept the book for all the  teams he led in hitting.

The kid had two chances of making varsity the following year. Slim and None. And Slim got on his horse and rode out of town.

RJM posted:

My son was on JV as a freshman as were other top freshman. Due to a shortage of quality catching in the program a freshman who really wasn't ready for JV ball was the second catcher. 

So he wouldn't be overwhelmed he only played against the worst teams in the conference. His mother walked the sidelines complaining to anyone who would listen.

"My son has the highest batting average on the team. He should be playing all the time and batting fourth. He's always had the highest batting average on every team he's played. ** He should be the varsity catcher next year. 

** Not true in middle school. Guess who coached and kept the book for all the  teams he led in hitting.

The kid had two chances of making varsity the following year. Slim and None. And Slim got on his horse and ride out of town.

I would agree that stats are not the end all be all, however they do have some merit. HS stats show a pretty large body of work. Starters at the top of the order will see 100-125 plate appearances. College coaches are not dumb, they can discern that a team who plays in a metro area will typically play against stronger competition that rural area teams based on the larger pool of more skilled players to select from. Not that there aren't great teams in rural areas (Buchanan HS in Clovis, CA for instance), so I guess my point is yes, the college coaches of course take the HS stats with a grain of salt, but when you look at really how little time a coach spends actually seeing a prospect play before offering them a scholarship the stats have to play something of a factor in his decision process, whether it is in the player's favor or not. But my opinion is that favorable stats never look bad...never.

A couple of honest observations...

I'm not going to suggest that there is no such thing as "politics" in high school sports, but...in my personal experience, the majority of those who have pounded politics, were not necessarily in the upper echelon of the talent pool.  At the high school level, if a particular player is good enough to play, they are going to play.  Most often, there are things that may be going on that the parent may not be privy to.  Examples could be attitude on the field, laziness, a lack of coachability, etc.  Maybe he is asked to do things during practice, and simply can't or won't execute what is asked, which makes it more challenging to put him on the field in a game.  Generally speaking, and every program is somewhat different, but JV baseball is a development program.  It is designed to develop players to move on to the Varsity level.  As such, JV players, even those at the bottom of the roster, would generally receive more than one at bat in an entire season.  This tells me one of two things:  either the player is near the bottom of this school's present talent pool, OR maybe there should more of a focus on the intangibles.

The high school coach is with your son EVERY DAY in a baseball environment.  The last time most parents spent considerable time in their son's baseball environment tends to be when they are pre-high school.  Nearly every high school player was the 12 year old all-star.  The further you move up, the funnel narrows, and the parent only sees what happens on game day.

Being as the player was a JV player as a 10th grader, I would spend some time trying to identify his strengths and weaknesses on the field, and working to enhance them.  I will disagree with an above poster and tell you that I have not talked to single college coach, EVER, at any level, who asked me what a players' stats were.  They are more concerned with athleticism, fundamental mechanics; how that translates to game play and projects to the future, along with attitude and academics.

Best of luck!

what positions does he Play? also do you have any measurables for him (60 time, arm Velo, Exit Speed)?

The problem is that athleticism and mechanics don't always translate to game play and stats are objective evidence of performance in game play.   I'm sure there were pro scouts who looked at Andrew Miller's and Matt Harvey's numbers at UNC.  But I will concede that stats are of less value at the HS level and below.

mburtner17 posted:

The problem is that athleticism and mechanics don't always translate to game play and stats are objective evidence of performance in game play.   I'm sure there were pro scouts who looked at Andrew Miller's and Matt Harvey's numbers at UNC.  But I will concede that stats are of less value at the HS level and below.

Very true, especially in High School.  I know of a high schooler who looks WONDERFUL in the cage but get him in an actual game and he can't/won't hit.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

My son was on JV as a freshman as were other top freshman. Due to a shortage of quality catching in the program a freshman who really wasn't ready for JV ball was the second catcher. 

So he wouldn't be overwhelmed he only played against the worst teams in the conference. His mother walked the sidelines complaining to anyone who would listen.

"My son has the highest batting average on the team. He should be playing all the time and batting fourth. He's always had the highest batting average on every team he's played. ** He should be the varsity catcher next year. 

** Not true in middle school. Guess who coached and kept the book for all the  teams he led in hitting.

The kid had two chances of making varsity the following year. Slim and None. And Slim got on his horse and ride out of town.

I would agree that stats are not the end all be all, however they do have some merit. HS stats show a pretty large body of work. Starters at the top of the order will see 100-125 plate appearances. College coaches are not dumb, they can discern that a team who plays in a metro area will typically play against stronger competition that rural area teams based on the larger pool of more skilled players to select from. Not that there aren't great teams in rural areas (Buchanan HS in Clovis, CA for instance), so I guess my point is yes, the college coaches of course take the HS stats with a grain of salt, but when you look at really how little time a coach spends actually seeing a prospect play before offering them a scholarship the stats have to play something of a factor in his decision process, whether it is in the player's favor or not. But my opinion is that favorable stats never look bad...never.

I can't say definitively that college coaches don't care about stats, but I can tell you that not one college coach asked my son about his HS or travel team stats.  The first question almost everyone asked was "how are your grades", followed by "do you have a recruiting a video we can see".  The other three most popular questions were "can you get us your summer schedule", "we can't get to see you based on your schedule, but is there a way you can get in front of us, here is where we are going to be", and "can you provide us with your HS/Travel coaches contact info".

Full disclosure, that my son decided, during the recruiting process, that he did not want to play college ball.  Stats may have come up later in the process with some of the coaches, but they were defiantly not part of the initial contact.

GoHeels posted:

A couple of honest observations...

I'm not going to suggest that there is no such thing as "politics" in high school sports, but...in my personal experience, the majority of those who have pounded politics, were not necessarily in the upper echelon of the talent pool.  At the high school level, if a particular player is good enough to play, they are going to play.  Most often, there are things that may be going on that the parent may not be privy to.  Examples could be attitude on the field, laziness, a lack of coachability, etc.  Maybe he is asked to do things during practice, and simply can't or won't execute what is asked, which makes it more challenging to put him on the field in a game.  Generally speaking, and every program is somewhat different, but JV baseball is a development program.  It is designed to develop players to move on to the Varsity level.  As such, JV players, even those at the bottom of the roster, would generally receive more than one at bat in an entire season.  This tells me one of two things:  either the player is near the bottom of this school's present talent pool, OR maybe there should more of a focus on the intangibles.

The high school coach is with your son EVERY DAY in a baseball environment.  The last time most parents spent considerable time in their son's baseball environment tends to be when they are pre-high school.  Nearly every high school player was the 12 year old all-star.  The further you move up, the funnel narrows, and the parent only sees what happens on game day.

Being as the player was a JV player as a 10th grader, I would spend some time trying to identify his strengths and weaknesses on the field, and working to enhance them.  I will disagree with an above poster and tell you that I have not talked to single college coach, EVER, at any level, who asked me what a players' stats were.  They are more concerned with athleticism, fundamental mechanics; how that translates to game play and projects to the future, along with attitude and academics.

Best of luck!

Not saying coaches ask, but this is the Information Age and MaxPreps is readily available to review, recruiting websites such as berecruited.com allow players to post these numbers as well. I would say to think college coaches don't look at that would be naive, just like they look at players Instagram, twitter and Facebook profiles. That coach is thinking about making an investment in that player and will likely perform due diligence. Ultimate stat of course is the eye test, but to discount HS stats completely is not correct.

CaCO3Girl posted:

mburtner17 posted:

The problem is that athleticism and mechanics don't always translate to game play and stats are objective evidence of performance in game play.   I'm sure there were pro scouts who looked at Andrew Miller's and Matt Harvey's numbers at UNC.  But I will concede that stats are of less value at the HS level and below.

Very true, especially in High School.  I know of a high schooler who looks WONDERFUL in the cage but get him in an actual game and he can't/won't hit.

Amen to that! I see kids who I think "man, if that kid could just put it together during the games he would be unstoppable." 

 

SanDiegoRealist posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

mburtner17 posted:

The problem is that athleticism and mechanics don't always translate to game play and stats are objective evidence of performance in game play.   I'm sure there were pro scouts who looked at Andrew Miller's and Matt Harvey's numbers at UNC.  But I will concede that stats are of less value at the HS level and below.

Very true, especially in High School.  I know of a high schooler who looks WONDERFUL in the cage but get him in an actual game and he can't/won't hit.

Amen to that! I see kids who I think "man, if that kid could just put it together during the games he would be unstoppable." 

 

My kid's old coach would tell a story about this guy on his college team.  Coach would always have him take BP when the other team was around to watch.  Always crushed the ball over the fence.  Lots of oohhs and aahhs.  Come game time, the kid couldn't hit a beach ball. 

High school sports are great for your kid to play in but with baseball it is more important to play on good travel teams that will get you in front of good competition weekly. HC and RC want to see how your kid stacks up against good players and many school teams dont have  more than a few kids who can play in college. Va is well represented with good travel teams. So you are very fortunate there. Evoshield Canes are great but they arent the only game in town

We sayed in a hotel in Oct for the WWBA in Fla with Virgina Cardinals staff and players and RBA teams too. Great group of coaches,kids and parents. (There was another Va program there too but the name escapes me and I had not seen them before) They all  have more than a few kids in 2018 with college interests and others with commits already. They also had several different teams there being represented. Not knowing the level of your son I would recommend those programs in that part of Va because they had multiple teams at different levels and they were actively coaching and pushing their players for the next level. Also we have played against many of their teams in the past at tourneys across the East Coast and the coaching that they provide is very  good. 

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

My son was on JV as a freshman as were other top freshman. Due to a shortage of quality catching in the program a freshman who really wasn't ready for JV ball was the second catcher. 

So he wouldn't be overwhelmed he only played against the worst teams in the conference. His mother walked the sidelines complaining to anyone who would listen.

"My son has the highest batting average on the team. He should be playing all the time and batting fourth. He's always had the highest batting average on every team he's played. ** He should be the varsity catcher next year. 

** Not true in middle school. Guess who coached and kept the book for all the  teams he led in hitting.

The kid had two chances of making varsity the following year. Slim and None. And Slim got on his horse and ride out of town.

I would agree that stats are not the end all be all, however they do have some merit. HS stats show a pretty large body of work. Starters at the top of the order will see 100-125 plate appearances. College coaches are not dumb, they can discern that a team who plays in a metro area will typically play against stronger competition that rural area teams based on the larger pool of more skilled players to select from. Not that there aren't great teams in rural areas (Buchanan HS in Clovis, CA for instance), so I guess my point is yes, the college coaches of course take the HS stats with a grain of salt, but when you look at really how little time a coach spends actually seeing a prospect play before offering them a scholarship the stats have to play something of a factor in his decision process, whether it is in the player's favor or not. But my opinion is that favorable stats never look bad...never.

This got me looking at last season's stats for my 2017's team.   I pasted together a graphic that shows a few players from my kid's team, and a few from their primary rival. They finished 1-2 in their league, and also played very similar non-league and post-season schedules.  Here's a situation where stats could mean something if a coach had a measure of the level of competition.

I have pasted the kids together ranked by BA and removed the names of the players.

Of the 2016's here all are currently playing college baseball, one at a Power5 D1, the rest at Juco (one Juco player turned down D1 offer).  Of the 2017's, all but one are committed, 1 at P5 D1, 2 at lower level D1, 1 at D3.  The lone 2018 committed to P5 D1 during soph year. 

In another post I'll say who is who in this graphic, but I'm sure you can guess that most guesses would be wrong.

Not sure I have a point, and pretty sure that his doesn't mean anything other than HS stats are great within the context of HS ball but they won't tell you much about the future.

JCG posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

My son was on JV as a freshman as were other top freshman. Due to a shortage of quality catching in the program a freshman who really wasn't ready for JV ball was the second catcher. 

So he wouldn't be overwhelmed he only played against the worst teams in the conference. His mother walked the sidelines complaining to anyone who would listen.

"My son has the highest batting average on the team. He should be playing all the time and batting fourth. He's always had the highest batting average on every team he's played. ** He should be the varsity catcher next year. 

** Not true in middle school. Guess who coached and kept the book for all the  teams he led in hitting.

The kid had two chances of making varsity the following year. Slim and None. And Slim got on his horse and ride out of town.

I would agree that stats are not the end all be all, however they do have some merit. HS stats show a pretty large body of work. Starters at the top of the order will see 100-125 plate appearances. College coaches are not dumb, they can discern that a team who plays in a metro area will typically play against stronger competition that rural area teams based on the larger pool of more skilled players to select from. Not that there aren't great teams in rural areas (Buchanan HS in Clovis, CA for instance), so I guess my point is yes, the college coaches of course take the HS stats with a grain of salt, but when you look at really how little time a coach spends actually seeing a prospect play before offering them a scholarship the stats have to play something of a factor in his decision process, whether it is in the player's favor or not. But my opinion is that favorable stats never look bad...never.

This got me looking at last season's stats for my 2017's team.   I pasted together a graphic that shows a few players from my kid's team, and a few from their primary rival. They finished 1-2 in their league, and also played very similar non-league and post-season schedules.  Here's a situation where stats could mean something if a coach had a measure of the level of competition.

I have pasted the kids together ranked by BA and removed the names of the players.

Of the 2016's here all are currently playing college baseball, one at a Power5 D1, the rest at Juco (one Juco player turned down D1 offer).  Of the 2017's, all but one are committed, 1 at P5 D1, 2 at lower level D1, 1 at D3.  The lone 2018 committed to P5 D1 during soph year. 

In another post I'll say who is who in this graphic, but I'm sure you can guess that most guesses would be wrong.

Not sure I have a point, and pretty sure that his doesn't mean anything other than HS stats are great within the context of HS ball but they won't tell you much about the future.

That's a pretty good hitting team!

JCG posted:

HS stats are great within the context of HS ball but they won't tell you much about the future.

Agreed. Here's an extreme example. The no. 1 ranked kid in the 2017 class -- possibly the no. 1 pick in the 2017 draft as a pitcher -- is an amazing talent. But looking at HS stats (and HS league awards), he was not the best pitcher in his HS league in either his sophomore or junior year (though he was very good in those two years: 8-5 W-L record, ERA around 1.70, 96 K in 83 IP). But every single college coach and pro scout would take him in a heartbeat over the kids who won the league pitcher of the year in 2015 and 2016 (though they are very good as well).

OTOH, SanDiegoRealist has a point that it is never a bad thing to have good stats . . .

SanDiegoRealist posted:

GoHeels posted:

 

Not saying coaches ask, but this is the Information Age and MaxPreps is readily available to review, recruiting websites such as berecruited.com allow players to post these numbers as well. I would say to think college coaches don't look at that would be naive, just like they look at players Instagram, twitter and Facebook profiles. That coach is thinking about making an investment in that player and will likely perform due diligence. Ultimate stat of course is the eye test, but to discount HS stats completely is not correct.

^^ This is very true.  After so many years of being on this site, I learned that HS stats probably do not matter.  Kinda.  Until a recent college visit my son took (he's currently a college sophomore pitcher) where they brought up a high school stat they looked up on maxpreps.  He had a good frosh season last year and one particular stat stood out.  Walks given up.  So when they looked up his HS pitching stats and saw the huge difference between the walks in his junior and senior year of high school and the walks his frosh year college, that was one of the first questions the HC asked him about.  Surprised me actually that they were asking. 

My son's case might be an isolated issue, but you never know,  it could be your son's isolated issue.  So I do agree that to some extent it's naive to think colleges don't look at HS stats or at least possibly make a specific stat or whatever as a determining factor because there is value from it.   

You have to be so good that you rise above politics, at every level.

Be so good, and so versatile, that there is no way a coach can keep you out of the lineup.  Stay after practice and get extra reps.  Be the 1st one to practice.  Shag balls, help rake the infield etc without being asked.   

Edited to add: the only "stats" that college coaches care about are Grade Point Average, SAT/ACT scores, 60 time, exit velocity and mph throwing velocity

Preach it! I tell my son this every day. Make them notice you, son.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

JCG posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

 

This got me looking at last season's stats for my 2017's team.   I pasted together a graphic that shows a few players from my kid's team, and a few from their primary rival. They finished 1-2 in their league, and also played very similar non-league and post-season schedules.  Here's a situation where stats could mean something if a coach had a measure of the level of competition.

I have pasted the kids together ranked by BA and removed the names of the players.

Of the 2016's here all are currently playing college baseball, one at a Power5 D1, the rest at Juco (one Juco player turned down D1 offer).  Of the 2017's, all but one are committed, 1 at P5 D1, 2 at lower level D1, 1 at D3.  The lone 2018 committed to P5 D1 during soph year. 

In another post I'll say who is who in this graphic, but I'm sure you can guess that most guesses would be wrong.

Not sure I have a point, and pretty sure that his doesn't mean anything other than HS stats are great within the context of HS ball but they won't tell you much about the future.

That's a pretty good hitting team!

Yup!

So here is who's who, in order top to bottom.

2017 #1 -  D3 commit. My boy.

2017 @#2 - P5 D1.  This kid is special.  Looks like an MLB hitter. Approx 200 in PG ranking of class. 

2016 #1 - Juco. No D1 interest; not sure family had a good plan. LH power hitting catcher with good size and getting stronger. I think/hope he'll either get a good D1 offer or be drafted out of Juco.

2017 #3 - not committed.  Don't know for sure but probably headed to Juco. Good size.  Great bat and glove; lacks speed.

2017 #4 - D1. Nice player, but I doubt he's a starter at that level.

2016 #2 - Juco. Turned down lower D1. Decent school and league. Not the call I would have made.

2016 #3 - Juco. Heard he had nice fall but might have a hard time getting PT this year.

2016 #4 - P5 D1.  This was statistically an off HS season for him, at the plate, though he pitched great. I hear he played very well in the fall and has a good chance of making starting lineup in spring

2017 #5 - D1.  This kid is exhibit number one that HS stats don't count for much.  Colleges saw outstanding speed, power, and arm - but he needs to get his head screwed on straight at the plate.

2018 #1 - P5 D1.  Nice player with a sweet LH swing, but his verbal was a headscratcher for me.  

quizzkid57 posted:

We moved to small rural county King George VA last year and he  made JV team in 10th grade. Never played all season until last game.  Other parents and players do not understand why he never played; so this is not my, his Father, opinion.  He drove in 3 runs single time up at  bat in last game.

How can he get playing time and a coach's recommendations to play college ball?  Or even just get basic stats? 

Academics are excellent and he is in 11th grade looking at colleges, most likely division III.  Tried out for Evoshield Canes but they have not answered emails asking for his stats. Currently attending hitting clinic in Fredericksburg.  Moved several times in last few years; Iowa to NJ to VA.

Thanks,

Rick

 

Rick,

The best approach would have been (and still is) for your son (not you) to talk to the coach and inquire as to what he needs to do to better himself.  Don't mention playing time - Never.  The good news is the coach must have seen something in tryouts to put him on the roster.  Again what he saw in practice is also a determining factor as to how much playing time a player may get though I agree JV is a time for development and not an emphasis on winning.  Winning is the job of the varsity coach.

To be honest, it doesn't matter what you or any other parent "thinks".  It only matters what the coach thinks based on his evaluation of players in practice and games.  It's his team, not yours.  Get use to it - it doesn't get any better at the college level.

Full disclosure - My son was attended KGHS and played JV/Varsity from 2008-2012 - two years as a JV starter and three years as a Varsity starter.  I don't know who the JV coach is now, but I do know the varsity coach.  Trust me when I say the coach nor the AD put up with "politics".  If you have a legitimate concern, then yes they may listen.  But if it's over playing time - forgetaboutit.

As to college exposure you are on the right track by trying to find a travel team in the area,  Canes and the Cardinals are very good teams. I'm not sure of any others that may be in the region as our son hasn't played travel ball since 2010.  Even the travel team my son was on no longer exists.  It was a local team that existed to help prepare the kids for HS ball.  You may want to try contacting the Virginia Sports Complex in Caroline County so see if they may know of some local and regional teams.  Occasionally I see "player wanted" ads in the sports section of the Free-Lance Star.

Just a word of caution.  Be careful when chasing the athletic scholarships.  If not careful one can spend more than the scholarship is worth IF a an offer even comes.  Encourage your son with his studies.  There is far more academic money available (scholarships and merit aid) than athletic money.

So, the topic has shifted and I think that's probably OK... OP has received lots of good feedback.

HS Stats - The general message here has been that HS stats don't matter, largely because of the wide variance in competitive levels, the small sample size, the higher likelihood of book cooking and the other vast variables like field dims and conditions, prevailing winds, fence/no fence, etc.  What really matters in the eyes of the RC's is can the kid play at the next level, does he fill the particular need, will he thrive in the college environment on and off the field.

But SDrealist brings up some good points that we probably don't give enough consideration to...  First, most college recruiting is done regionally and the RC's have their ears to the ground.  So, they most likely have a better feel for the differences between HS leagues and divisions within their region than we give credit for.  Second, in today's world of instant info access, surely RC's will touch on all data points available as part of their process.

That said, there are still many parts of the country that don't post on Maxpreps or any other public database.  Still others post selectively, pull all data as post-season nears, etc.  And, I believe the perception is that sites like BeRecruited are mostly self-report, so perhaps given less weight.

Interesting poster....we haven't heard much from him on this entire thread.  Anything to add Quizz?

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

My son was on JV as a freshman as were other top freshman. Due to a shortage of quality catching in the program a freshman who really wasn't ready for JV ball was the second catcher. 

So he wouldn't be overwhelmed he only played against the worst teams in the conference. His mother walked the sidelines complaining to anyone who would listen.

"My son has the highest batting average on the team. He should be playing all the time and batting fourth. He's always had the highest batting average on every team he's played. ** He should be the varsity catcher next year. 

** Not true in middle school. Guess who coached and kept the book for all the  teams he led in hitting.

The kid had two chances of making varsity the following year. Slim and None. And Slim got on his horse and ride out of town.

I would agree that stats are not the end all be all, however they do have some merit. HS stats show a pretty large body of work. Starters at the top of the order will see 100-125 plate appearances. College coaches are not dumb, they can discern that a team who plays in a metro area will typically play against stronger competition that rural area teams based on the larger pool of more skilled players to select from. Not that there aren't great teams in rural areas (Buchanan HS in Clovis, CA for instance), so I guess my point is yes, the college coaches of course take the HS stats with a grain of salt, but when you look at really how little time a coach spends actually seeing a prospect play before offering them a scholarship the stats have to play something of a factor in his decision process, whether it is in the player's favor or not. But my opinion is that favorable stats never look bad...never.

Favorable stats are like a brochure. But ultimately the buyer has to see the product.

I just had a funny memory. In this thread someone posted coaches do look at stats just like they check Facebook and Twitter accounts. From having an older sister go through recruiting my son knew about being careful with Facebook postings. And to be sure he changed his name. It had to be something absurd enough for his friends to remember. His Facebook name was Ismail McBoingboing.

RJM posted:

I just had a funny memory. In this thread someone posted coaches do look at stats just like they check Facebook and Twitter accounts. From having an older sister go through recruiting my son knew about being careful with Facebook postings. And to be sure he changed his name. It had to be something absurd enough for his friends to remember. His Facebook name was Ismail McBoingboing.

That is pretty funny