Good Stuff.....

Sounds like a good old fashioned weak front side.

Griffey learned from some of the best, all before Charlie Lau's swing changed most swings.

Good old fashioned baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Wayback and others, have you seen this?....

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78819

Hiddengem, a MLB player is validating Tom and Richard's arm action stuff......And, Swingbuilder's hips and hands stuff.....

I intend to add something to that discussion at some point today. Hiddengem is currently in the minor leagues (AAA) and has had 6 MLB at bats from 2003 to the present if I have my info correct. He is one of the few to hit a HR on his very first MLB at bat. I just wanted to clarify that he is not in MLB currently or is not listed on their roster as of this morning.

Hiddengem is definitely an elite baseball player....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Hiddengem is definitely an elite baseball player....

Bluedog, he certainly has made it further than I have. I'm not questioning his abilities but did want to point out that he is still attempting to make it and stick in the majors. We (family) are going to a Kansas City v St. Louis game this Thursday and I had hoped that he would have been up with the big club so that I could introduce myself to him. Now, no hiddengem and no PUJOS. Still, it'll be our annual MLB game. I'm not big on traffic and so, we don't cross the river much even though St. Louis is 20 miles away.

Take care.

Hiddengem sure doesn't have anything good to say about Steve's hitting stuff.....

He does say Yeager's hitting stuff is working well for him, though......

From what I think I understand about both, Yeager's teaching is a reversal in arm and hand action from Steve's teaching.....

Hiddengem benefited from Yeagers description of how the hands and arms are used in the high level swing.

A 'snap back of the lead arm' accompanied by a 3/4 motion 'throw' of the top hand around the lead hand which becomes a pivot point that has stopped. (in relation to the body)

Good stuff.

The Second Engine described with different words.

quote:

The Second Engine described with different words.

That's exactly what I thought when I read what Hiddengem said.....

Hiddengem said this arm action is what he felt after Yeager worked with him......He said he couldn't duplicate this arm action until Yeager taught him how....

Yes, really good stuff....

blue,

as usual your trying to shill for your buddy, richard. Won't work. What Yeager is saying and HG is talking about is at the end of the swing, into impact. NOT dicks' swivel/hand torque, snap the pole b.s. YOU KNOW THAT. You just can't be honest about anything that relates to your boy, richard.

One other thing blue. Please have richard post another snap the pole clip on the eteamz (that is the only forum where he can post, isn't it) I mean except his own. If he can't put a snap the pole up, how about the hitting the rafters thing. I need a good laugh.

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
blue,
What Yeager is saying and HG is talking about is at the end of the swing, into impact. NOT dicks' swivel/hand torque, snap the pole b.s.

This is what I understood as well. However, I don't have access to HG like members of HI. Also, the arm action in the provided clip of Griffey is from a home run hitting contest. Several members have questioned whether the swing from a HR contest is a duplication of their "game swing." Finally, I wouldn't assert that Griffey's lead arm action is typical of most MLB players. He has it straighter than most in the provided video.

For Comparison:

CoachB25,

You are exactly right. I don't consider myself to be an expert on Yeager, but I do have his dvds and have reviewed them a number of times. He never mentions anything remotely similar to THT, Swivel etc. NOTHING. He does reference slotting the back elbow early in the sequence. His only reference to hand action is creating a sudden change of direction just before contact in, I believe much the same way that Mankin suggests.

To say that what Yeager is saying is the same as the stuff from HI is, IMO either ignorance or intentional deception. Not really much gray area here. I haven't seen anything from Hidden Gem where he implys that he thinks it is the same stuff either.

Wonder who BornAgain is?

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
He does reference slotting the back elbow early in the sequence. His only reference to hand action is creating a sudden change of direction just before contact in, I believe much the same way that Mankin suggests.

Mankin, Englishbey, *****, Peavy all address this action in some form or phrase. Therefore, this is nothing new. However, as we all know how one describes or demonstrates any given action will make a lot of sense to some while not to others.

Coach,

I don't really know much about Peavey. I know that SE and N addressed it to some extent, but I thought that Mankin and Yeager advised a more "active" approach to achieving whip. Please give me your input as I may not have fully understood what I read at N's site.

Either way, none of that has anything to do with what richard, and by extension blue dog is saying. I guess if we have doubts we could ask born again. He seems to be very close to the HI action.

PM sent. For the sake of diffusing any potential p-ing contest here, I won't/can't speak for SE. However, he does address this action on his website in his video library. ShawnLee asked me to give input on what was read on N's site. I simply can't since I've never been a member of that site.

One last thought, it'd be great to have these conversations/discussions and leave personalities out of it. Rather, address the video, what you see or don't see and then agree to disagree. I believe this can be done but will it?

The timing of the 'snap back' of the lead arm and the 'throw of the top hand' IN RELATION TO THE SHOULDER'S ACTION is causing some to misinterpret what is being said.

That does happen at "go".

Many of you don't understand how 'go' is that late.

Others of course....don't believe in 'go'.

Hiddengem used the word 'bypass'...as in...the hands bypass the shoulders to describe what Yeager told him. It is my understanding that Yeager used that word.

And....he used the Griffey clip to demonstrate the bypass. If you look through truth seeking glasses you can see it.

And not just in Griffey

Not according to Yeager. Not unless your "go" is way past everyone elses.

BTW what does bypass have to do with anything, even if HG used the term.

Tell us where you believe the 'go' move is in this swing.

The point of no return.

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
What Yeager is saying and HG is talking about is at the end of the swing, into impact.

This is correct.

quote:

Originally posted by BornAgain:

Hiddengem used the word 'bypass'...as in...the hands bypass the shoulders to describe what Yeager told him. It is my understanding that Yeager used that word.

Here is what HG posted.

"His bat is always excellerating very quickly through contact. You can clearly see his top hand fly passed the bottom into contact and you can also see the shoulders decelerate and the hands and arms fly passed. I certainly don't see the lead shoulder pulling the bat into contact."

quote:

To say that what Yeager is saying is the same as the stuff from HI is, IMO either ignorance or intentional deception.

You always thought you were smarter than others....

Too bad, you aren't.....If you were, we could learn from you.......

quote:

BTW what does bypass have to do with anything, even if HG used the term.

Read the next post........

quote:

What Yeager is saying and HG is talking about is at the end of the swing, into impact. NOT dicks' swivel/hand torque, snap the pole b.s. YOU KNOW THAT. You just can't be honest about anything that relates to your boy, richard.

You really don't understand Yeager, or Richard at all....The deal is, you don't want to or you can't admit it.......

dog,

I was being too kind. It's really not a choice. You are being intentionally deceptive.

You've never answered any question that I've asked that I can remeber. Here's your chance to show your not being intentionally dishonest.

Please tell me what Yeager says that you believe indicates the seconf engine or torque or swivel or any of the other little buzz words that your boy the shop keep is so fond of.

Please explain EXACTLY where you see the similarity. If you don't, I will just assume like always that you just want to pretend you know something when you don't.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

What Yeager is saying and HG is talking about is at the end of the swing, into impact. NOT dicks' swivel/hand torque, snap the pole b.s. YOU KNOW THAT. You just can't be honest about anything that relates to your boy, richard.

You really don't understand Yeager, or Richard at all....The deal is, you don't want to or you can't admit it.......

doggie,

Actually, I've tried very hard to understand richard for a long time. Quite frankly, I've given up on tom g. Anyway, after reading the recent threads on BBF I've come to suspect that I may actually understand richard's bypass thing now (that is assuming that the posters on BBF are correct in their assumption of what richard said) If that's the case, then he is truly one of the worlds poorest communicators. If, what he has called bypassing the shoulders is nothing more than the shoulders accelerating (as they must) and then decelerating as the arms/hands continue to accelerate (as per the kinetic chain principle) then he must truly be a simpleton.

I don't know anyone outside of a few HI patrons who don't seem to readily understand the kinetic chain and it's implications for hitting. That is the ABSOLUTE PRIMARY thing that Yeager teaches. If richard is talking about the same thing, then his understanding of the concept must be non-existant becasue he had to resort to making up new buzz words for something that everyone already knew and, in the process, confusing the issue so that no one undestood it.

What do you think bdog? Is that what richard is talking about? If so, why all the mumbo jumbo, look what I discovered? You seem to be very knowledgeable about richard and his stuff. What's your opinion?

If I may interject Shawn---it is more words than substance

I'll weigh in on this with some other thoughts. Some thoughts about posts on various sites and this site within the last week. BTW, I don't have to be right and so, the comments I'll add later are just my observations.

quote:

dog,

I was being too kind. It's really not a choice. You are being intentionally deceptive.

quote:

...after reading the recent threads on BBF I've come to suspect that I may actually understand richard's bypass thing now

IF the first quote is true, then the second quote is also true.....

IF the first quote is not true, then the second quote is also not true....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

dog,

I was being too kind. It's really not a choice. You are being intentionally deceptive.

quote:

...after reading the recent threads on BBF I've come to suspect that I may actually understand richard's bypass thing now

IF the first quote is true, then the second quote is also true.....

IF the first quote is not true, then the second quote is also not true....

Forget it. It was stupid of me to ask a question expecting an answer from you. I'd rather you ignore the question like usual than your silly riddles.

quote:

"I certainly don't see the lead shoulder pulling the bat into contact."

Hiddengem says he doesn't see the lead shoulder pulling the bat into contact, so what does he see???

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

"I certainly don't see the lead shoulder pulling the bat into contact."

Hiddengem says he doesn't see the lead shoulder pulling the bat into contact, so what is happening???

What part of the kinetic chain do you not understand. The lead shoulder does start the arms and hands moving, but the shoulder rotation has decellerated somewhat prior to contact and thats' when the arms and hands pass the shoulders. That is what Yeager says.

You really don't understand what he's is saying, do you?

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
What Yeager is saying and HG is talking about is at the end of the swing, into impact.


This is correct.

No, it's not correct.......

quote:

The lead shoulder does start the arms and hands moving,.....

So you say...

I say, it doesn't...

You do not understand the shoulders getting bypassed.....You just think you do....

Your reluctance to listen to Tom is your downfall.......

quote:

What part of the kinetic chain do you not understand. The lead shoulder does start the arms and hands moving, but the shoulder rotation has decellerated somewhat prior to contact and thats' when the arms and hands pass the shoulders. That is what Yeager says.

What is the reason for the split grip, then?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

The lead shoulder does start the arms and hands moving,.....

So you say...

I say, it doesn't...

You do not understand the shoulders getting bypassed.....You just think you do....

Your reluctance to listen to Tom is your downfall.......

quote:

What part of the kinetic chain do you not understand. The lead shoulder does start the arms and hands moving, but the shoulder rotation has decellerated somewhat prior to contact and thats' when the arms and hands pass the shoulders. That is what Yeager says.

What is the reason for the split grip, then?

You know, you make less sense than tom. And, the reason I don't understnd the bypass is becasue its nonsense made up by a pool hall owner with an ax to grind.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

The lead shoulder does start the arms and hands moving,.....

So you say...

I say, it doesn't...

You do not understand the shoulders getting bypassed.....You just think you do....

Your reluctance to listen to Tom is your downfall.......

quote:

What part of the kinetic chain do you not understand. The lead shoulder does start the arms and hands moving, but the shoulder rotation has decellerated somewhat prior to contact and thats' when the arms and hands pass the shoulders. That is what Yeager says.

What is the reason for the split grip, then?

bluedog, I give up. Please though, tell me how richards student hit this season with the swivel, torque, second engine, ride the back leg etc........ Oh, that's right, he says his students swing is rusty for the beer league becasue he was pitching all spring. Must have been TWO very long innings to last all spring.

If you're so curious, then why don't you ask him?

quote:

And, the reason I don't understnd the bypass is becasue its nonsense made up by a pool hall owner with an ax to grind.

Sounds like to me you're the one with an axe to grind........You're the one following him around....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
If you're so curious, then why don't you ask him?

quote:

And, the reason I don't understnd the bypass is becasue its nonsense made up by a pool hall owner with an ax to grind.

Sounds like to me you're the one with an axe to grind........You're the one following him around....

dog,

you can't go to a forum where some fool isn't posting on richard's behalf. Of course they have to because he's been booted off every forum but his own.

You have yet to answer any question on here with anythign but a riddle so I'm sure I'm wasting my time, but please tell me how the bat starts moving if not initially pulled by the shoulders. Disregard how far the shoulders rotate or if they are just along for a ride with the hips, but please tell me what moves the bat forward if it is not the linkage between the shoulder. arms and hands.

Please answer that one question in some detail so even i might be able to understand.

quote:

dog,

you can't go to a forum where some fool isn't posting on richard's behalf.

Whatsamatter, nobody will talk to you over at BBF?

I'm really tired now. The kid has played all day from 9 this morning until just about an hour ago. I do intend to make another post here on observations but they won't be tonight. Nor tomorrow morning. Church!

Could I ask that we leave Richard out of any discussion here? I think we can all make our points given various topics without doing so. Of course I'd like to start a verse of kum-ba-ya but...

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
I'm really tired now. The kid has played all day from 9 this morning until just about an hour ago. I do intend to make another post here on observations but they won't be tonight. Nor tomorrow morning. Church!

Could I ask that we leave Richard out of any discussion here? I think we can all make our points given various topics without doing so. Of course I'd like to start a verse of kum-ba-ya but...

Blue dog,

Just like always. You won't answer a simple question. You are a master at changing the subject. Please answer the question. In case you've forgotten already, this is the question

"please tell me how the bat starts moving if not initially pulled by the shoulders. Disregard how far the shoulders rotate or if they are just along for a ride with the hips, but please tell me what moves the bat forward if it is not the linkage between the shoulder. arms and hands.
Please don't change the subject, just answer that question.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

please tell me how the bat starts moving if not initially pulled by the shoulders.

Arm action.......

quote:

....please tell me what moves the bat forward if it is not the linkage between the shoulder. arms and hands.

Now, you try to confuse the issue with using the word "linkage"....You are entertaining....

The shoulder is a linkage....So, I guess you could say since the front shoulder socket doesn't fall out, it is involved......

But, so are the feet, 'cause if you fell down, you couldn't move the bat forward......

I'm not trying to confuse anything or anyone, I'm asking a simple question. I still don't understand how the arms move the bat forward without the shoulder being involved. Please tell me what action of the arms are you referring to that moves the bat forward without any involvement of the shoulders?

Shawn, you have no idea what we mean when we say the shoulders get by-passed.......

I would explain it to you, but you don't really want to know.......

Your agenda is to badger anyone associated with the "stretch and fire" theory.....

And, nobody will talk to you over at BBF...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Shawn, you have no idea what we mean when we say the shoulders get by-passed.......

I would explain it to you, but you don't really want to know.......

Your agenda is to badger anyone associated with the "stretch and fire" theory.....

And, nobody will talk to you over at BBF...

Blue dog,

I have no idea what you are refering to at BBF. I have a total of 9 posts over there, most of which have received an intelligle response. You have 101 PAGES of posts over here and very few have been intelligle responses. You are AVOIDING THE QUESTION AGAIN!!!!!!!

You are right, I don't understand shoulder bypass, if you do, please explain it to me as I have asked repeatedly.

You said "I would explain it to you, but you don't really want to know......." How do you know. I don't beleive you can explain it, you always like to talk about what you know without saying anything. Please answer the question I asked earlier.

"please tell me how the bat starts moving if not initially pulled by the shoulders. Disregard how far the shoulders rotate or if they are just along for a ride with the hips, but please tell me what moves the bat forward if it is not the linkage between the shoulder. arms and hands.

Don't avoid the question, answer it. If you are able.

My comment on the provided video of Bonds in this BP situation is, put a cursor on his number. Note the position by leaving it on that number. Then decide for yourself if the shoulder is moving along with the arm action or not.

BTW, this video has been seen thousands of times and commented on more. Take the concept of "tilt." Watch Bond's head and mark it on the light tower. Then, watch not only the shoulder action but see that the head drops suggesting an adjustment in tilt. I'd like to find the link with this video. I believe it was posted here 2 years ago.

As for the shoulders not moving....I was informed that someone may have actually said that.....If that is the case, then he will have to answer for that...

For the record, I have never said the shoulders don't move....To the contrary, I have said they must move......When I talk about by-passing the shoulders, I mean as a power source, not as a linkage....

Those who discuss this stuff with me know this....Those with an agenda don't care to know it...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BlueDog:
As for the shoulders not moving....I was informed that someone may have actually said that.....If that is the case, then he will have to answer for that...

For the record, I have never said the shoulders don't move....To the contrary, I have said they must move......When I talk about by-passing the shoulders, I mean as a power source, not as a linkage....


Bluedog, this is what you said in previous post in this thread:

quote:
The lead shoulder does start the arms and hands moving,.....

So you say...

I say, it doesn't...

BTW, you never did answer the question. You'd obviously rather win and argument that speak the truth.

Later

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
I can't argue with you.....

You're too much fun to play with.....

You might leave if I get too serious with you.....

quote:

You are right, I don't understand shoulder bypass, if you do, please explain it to me as I have asked repeatedly.

I don't understand...You will tell me.....

I give up!!! If you knew anything, surely in the 101 pages of posts you'd have slipped up and let it out by now.

I knew I was wasting my time trying to discuss anything with you.

Never argue with stupid people. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Arm Action.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
XV, now that's good stuff....

go sell some wings richard...we hear they are pretty good..

What's wrong Wogdog???....Getting boring on the boards these days?

You can't get any action over at BBF?...They aren't listening to you?

Want some wings?

Arm action.

quote:

Originally posted by XV:
Arm action.

How much weight do you think was on Wright's front side in this clip? See the left foot fly over? Did all of his weight shift to the front side??? I don't think so. Did his back leg push or get lifted off the ground or pulled through by his front side? Great clips XV! Looks like fly fishing to me! Same arm action! Same principal, IMO.

On both, the back foot definitely gets pulled...To me, there's no doubt....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
On both, the back foot definitely gets pulled...To me, there's no doubt....

Blue,

What are you meaning by "on both"? I agree that late in his swing, the back foot (heel only) is being pulled through by rotation (including quads, hams, abs, glutes and calf muscles). I think he's an all three hitter. He pushes with his back big toe to start, he continues the turn with the front leg pressing back, and finishes it with a late punch of the back knee. He also starts with one of the biggest negative hip moves I've ever seen. I would say he gets everything possible out of his body when he swings and...yes...his arm action helps get it all going and is the most efficient way to "swing" the bat.

quote:

Blue,

What are you meaning by "on both"?

That means not just one.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

Blue,

What are you meaning by "on both"?

That means not just one.....

LOL! Not just one what?