Curious to get thoughts on what would be considered a good WHIP for HS level ball...
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HS stats are so weighted on the level of the competition it is difficult to give numbers.
That said my sons team who played in a very competitive SoCal league were 0.87-2.14. The three main starters were 0.87, 1.15, 1.39.
That said my sons team who played in a very competitive SoCal league were 0.87-2.14. The three main starters were 0.87, 1.15, 1.39.
It is difficult to say because of the level of scorekeeping that is out there.
I actully like to provide the WHIP stat but I also provide what I call EWHIP which takes into consideration any batter that reaches on error plus the walks and hits. To me, when you have a stat like that it makes it easier to know how a defense plays behind their pitcher and then the comparrison to WHIP can really tell a statistical story.
For our pitchers (I keep the book and I'm tougher than parents might like but just fine in the eyes of our coach) a good WHIP is 1.75 and our best pitchers are usually in the 1.2 to below 1.0 range - similar to what BOF mentioned.
I actully like to provide the WHIP stat but I also provide what I call EWHIP which takes into consideration any batter that reaches on error plus the walks and hits. To me, when you have a stat like that it makes it easier to know how a defense plays behind their pitcher and then the comparrison to WHIP can really tell a statistical story.
For our pitchers (I keep the book and I'm tougher than parents might like but just fine in the eyes of our coach) a good WHIP is 1.75 and our best pitchers are usually in the 1.2 to below 1.0 range - similar to what BOF mentioned.
quote:Originally posted by tzbookman:
Curious to get thoughts on what would be considered a good WHIP for HS level ball...
BOF is correct that its difficult to give a general answer because of the wide range of skills and competition involved. Its also pretty difficult to give a good answer because of the wide variations in scorers. You could go to MaxPreps and take a look at WHIPs and get some idea. They have over 3,000 school posting there, so the range is pretty wide.
OTOH, I have a little bit of personal data I’ll share. The link shows the last 5 years of data for our HS. It’s in the largest school category in Ca, and has been in the playoffs each of the last 5 seasons. We play mostly DI(large schools), but usually play a few games each season against DII or DIII schools, but they’re usually the better schools in those divisions.
http://www.infosports.com/scor.../images/whipplus.pdf
The 1st report is our pitchers. The 2nd report is how the schools have done and of course includes all pitchers for all schools.
Guys...thanks for the info!
I like the WHIP Plus and EWHIP, more formulae to add to the sheet now
Thanks again!
I like the WHIP Plus and EWHIP, more formulae to add to the sheet now
Thanks again!
I would agree with the other posts here...
I've seen HS players from small schools with WHIPs around .5 HS. When they compete at the pro-scout level, they rise to the 1.2-1.7 range against wood bats.
Likewise, I've seen kids from the big schools have WHIPs in HS ball in the 1.1-1.4 area play for the same pro-scout teams against wood bats and drop to the .7-.9 range.
Basically, they can move all over the place based on small sample size, poor scoring, poor/good competition, ability to pitch inside, bat type, etc.
I've seen HS players from small schools with WHIPs around .5 HS. When they compete at the pro-scout level, they rise to the 1.2-1.7 range against wood bats.
Likewise, I've seen kids from the big schools have WHIPs in HS ball in the 1.1-1.4 area play for the same pro-scout teams against wood bats and drop to the .7-.9 range.
Basically, they can move all over the place based on small sample size, poor scoring, poor/good competition, ability to pitch inside, bat type, etc.
quote:Basically, they can move all over the place based on small sample size, poor scoring, poor/good competition, ability to pitch inside, bat type, etc.
Agreed.
However, a good WHIP is about the same at every level. A WHIP under 1.0 (five hits and two walks per full seven inning game) is very good and a WHIP over 2.0 (10 hits and four walks) is probably too high to be consistently successful.
My son pitched for a small HS. His WHIP was about the same in HS and wood bat competition, around 1.0...I always assumed that the wood bats and better defense balanced out the metal bat, weaker defense...
Yes Hawk, a good WHIP is about the same at every level, but there’s something that needs to be kept in mind that most people don’t consider. A 1.0 WHIP in the ML has pretty much the same meaning or value no matter which team a pitcher is on or which league or division they play in, because the quality of the hitters they’re facing in general, is pretty much the same. Of course a pitcher in the NL does have the advantage of facing a fairly weak hitter at least twice a game though. 
That same thing could be said about all the players who play in a league or division where in general the players are all equally skillful. FI, a AAA WHIP has pretty much the same value across all of AAA, but a 1.0 in AAA doesn’t equate to a 1.0 in the ML. And that’s the way it goes down the ladder. A 1.0 on a DI team isn’t the same as a 1.0 on an NAIA team. It can be, but in general they aren’t because the competition is different.
When it gets to HS though, things go to Hell in a handbasket. Not only are there fewer games to make up the sample, but the competition can vary widely. FI, we’re a Ca school in the largest school division(DI). We played 31 games last season, 24 of which were played against teams in our same division. But those other 7 games were a mixture of good and bad. 5 were against DII schools, 1 against a DIII school and 1 against a DIV school.
Now don’t get me wrong, one of the great things about baseball is, on any given day any school can whup up on any other school, because pitching plays such a big part at that level. But in general, over the long haul smaller schools that have a more shallow talent pool to draw from, are at a disadvantage. The result is, a pitcher on a small school team with a WHIP of 1.0 probably wouldn’t have that same WHIP if he was playing on a big school team.
However, there is one thing that HS stats are very good at doing, and that’s comparing players on the same team or league, and that’s because the completion is generally the same for all the players. Then there are so many other factors involved, like coaching, pitch calling, defense, etc., its really hard to tell what one kid would do in another environment, and those are some of the things that make using HS stats to compare players is so very difficult.
The only way to really evaluate a player’s stats is to average together all the games in any venue. That way there would be a “true” average, rather than a bunch of different ones where each has to be considered differently.
That same thing could be said about all the players who play in a league or division where in general the players are all equally skillful. FI, a AAA WHIP has pretty much the same value across all of AAA, but a 1.0 in AAA doesn’t equate to a 1.0 in the ML. And that’s the way it goes down the ladder. A 1.0 on a DI team isn’t the same as a 1.0 on an NAIA team. It can be, but in general they aren’t because the competition is different.
When it gets to HS though, things go to Hell in a handbasket. Not only are there fewer games to make up the sample, but the competition can vary widely. FI, we’re a Ca school in the largest school division(DI). We played 31 games last season, 24 of which were played against teams in our same division. But those other 7 games were a mixture of good and bad. 5 were against DII schools, 1 against a DIII school and 1 against a DIV school.
Now don’t get me wrong, one of the great things about baseball is, on any given day any school can whup up on any other school, because pitching plays such a big part at that level. But in general, over the long haul smaller schools that have a more shallow talent pool to draw from, are at a disadvantage. The result is, a pitcher on a small school team with a WHIP of 1.0 probably wouldn’t have that same WHIP if he was playing on a big school team.
However, there is one thing that HS stats are very good at doing, and that’s comparing players on the same team or league, and that’s because the completion is generally the same for all the players. Then there are so many other factors involved, like coaching, pitch calling, defense, etc., its really hard to tell what one kid would do in another environment, and those are some of the things that make using HS stats to compare players is so very difficult.
The only way to really evaluate a player’s stats is to average together all the games in any venue. That way there would be a “true” average, rather than a bunch of different ones where each has to be considered differently.
The OP asked what was a good WHIP for HS level. I simply stated that a good WHIP is numerically about the same at any level.
I didn't say that small school teams are competitive with big school teams. I just agreed with JMoff that WHIP is affected by sample size, competition, etc
My son's WHIP however, is about the same in woodbat vs HS play. So there may be other factors involved besides where a pitcher plays HS ball....wood vs metal, etc...
I didn't say that small school teams are competitive with big school teams. I just agreed with JMoff that WHIP is affected by sample size, competition, etc
My son's WHIP however, is about the same in woodbat vs HS play. So there may be other factors involved besides where a pitcher plays HS ball....wood vs metal, etc...
quote:Originally posted by Hawk19:…My son's WHIP however, is about the same in woodbat vs HS play. So there may be other factors involved besides where a pitcher plays HS ball....wood vs metal, etc...
Don’t mind me, but “about the same” is a phrase I’d be more comfortable with if I knew how you defined it. Is a WHIP of 1.11 “about the same” as 1.45 to you?
My guess is, if your boy’s WHIP is within .2 or .3 between two typically very different venues, it had much more to do with coincidence than anything else. What were his WHIPs in the 2 different venues, and how many IPs in each did he have?
Great points stats, also the number 1 & 2 on most HS teams are only pitching against the top teams in their league not the "other" games which can skew stats dramitically.
quote:What were his WHIPs in the 2 different venues, and how many IPs in each did he have?
Ok, you got me....not the 'same' but not orders of magnitude different either...
His woodbat WHIP is 0.67, but he has only pitched 12 innings in showcase events...(5 hits and 3 walks)
His 2011 HS WHIP was 0.79 (68 innings)....So, percentage wise, closer to the 'same' than 1.11 is to 1.45...
Well Hawk,
I’m really happy you didn’t take what I said as any kind of insult or challenge, because it truly wasn’t. NORMALLY, when people get to talking about stats, they get pretty cavalier, and no one thinks a lot about using hyperbole to help make a point. Heck! I do it too, but usually I do it realizing what I’m doing.
When it comes to WHIP, if we compared my kid’s to yours, to many folks mine would look like a whimpering sissy, with a mere 1.28 in 162.67 varsity innings over a bit more than 2 seasons. But to those of us who look a bit beyond the numbers, all we’d see were 2 HS pitchers who were very likely the horses on their respective staffs, and not think all that much more about it because we know very little else about their situations.
I won’t even bother to tell you what the difference was in his WHIP between when he threw in wood bat venues and others. He was pitching when drop 5 Titanuims were the rage in HS, and there weren’t any limits on bats in tournaments, so when he and other good pitchers got to throw against wood, it was like night and day.
And sadly that happens a lot. Folks will see a player with 25 HRs and think WOW, that kid is a monster, but not realize he’s either a greyhound and plays on fields where there are no fences, or on fields with “bandbox” dimensions against weal competition. In the end, that’s why I’m not a big fan of trying to compare players using their stats, much outside of their respective leagues, or folks asking what a good … is.
I’m really happy you didn’t take what I said as any kind of insult or challenge, because it truly wasn’t. NORMALLY, when people get to talking about stats, they get pretty cavalier, and no one thinks a lot about using hyperbole to help make a point. Heck! I do it too, but usually I do it realizing what I’m doing.
When it comes to WHIP, if we compared my kid’s to yours, to many folks mine would look like a whimpering sissy, with a mere 1.28 in 162.67 varsity innings over a bit more than 2 seasons. But to those of us who look a bit beyond the numbers, all we’d see were 2 HS pitchers who were very likely the horses on their respective staffs, and not think all that much more about it because we know very little else about their situations.
I won’t even bother to tell you what the difference was in his WHIP between when he threw in wood bat venues and others. He was pitching when drop 5 Titanuims were the rage in HS, and there weren’t any limits on bats in tournaments, so when he and other good pitchers got to throw against wood, it was like night and day.
And sadly that happens a lot. Folks will see a player with 25 HRs and think WOW, that kid is a monster, but not realize he’s either a greyhound and plays on fields where there are no fences, or on fields with “bandbox” dimensions against weal competition. In the end, that’s why I’m not a big fan of trying to compare players using their stats, much outside of their respective leagues, or folks asking what a good … is.
I think there is universal agreement here on this topic.
I'll add that a WHIP of .7 is pretty dang good no matter what the other factors are...
Another data point, my son's WHIP in wood bat showcases this summer is .86 in 26 2/3 innings. Some of those were metal bat tournament innings, but I'm too lazy to do the math. His WHIP in 5A HS ball was 1.43 in 61 innings (not nearly the same competition level as a PG WWBA tournament though). There were a couple of games that swayed this computation and the summer has gone well, but the biggest contributor IMHO? He calls the pitches in summer ball but not HS ball...
I'll add that a WHIP of .7 is pretty dang good no matter what the other factors are...
Another data point, my son's WHIP in wood bat showcases this summer is .86 in 26 2/3 innings. Some of those were metal bat tournament innings, but I'm too lazy to do the math. His WHIP in 5A HS ball was 1.43 in 61 innings (not nearly the same competition level as a PG WWBA tournament though). There were a couple of games that swayed this computation and the summer has gone well, but the biggest contributor IMHO? He calls the pitches in summer ball but not HS ball...
quote:Originally posted by JMoff: … There were a couple of games that swayed this computation and the summer has gone well, but the biggest contributor IMHO? He calls the pitches in summer ball but not HS ball...
That’s been a real bug-a-boo of mine from the 1st time my boy threw a pitch in a game that was called from the bench! The rationale for doing that is all over the place from the coach simply feeling he needs to control every aspect of the game, to there being an actual plan in place to position defenders based on the hitter’s known tendencies and the pitcher’s ability to throw the ball reasonably close to where he’s trying to.
IMHO though, at least at the HS level there’s really more value in allowing the pitchers to throw what they feel most comfortable with than what benefit would be realized from keeping tight reins. My boy’s numbers were also much better when he was free to change whatever pitch he wanted, and while I believe confidence was very much a part of that, in my boy’s case not having to wait for signs to be relayed in allowed him to be just a tad quicker between pitches, and it made the perceived differences in those pitches by the batter, just that much more difficult to pick up.
FBs seemed faster compared to the previous OS pitch, OS pitches seemed slower when compared to previous FBs, and changing locations seemed to have a more pronounced effect. But, not every pitcher likes to work quick nor wants to take responsibility for his pitches, and those that don’t can thrive in a system where they’re little more than robots who react a certain way when a button is pushed. But its ok because it takes all kinds. The trouble is, when the system doesn’t take into consideration each pitcher’s differences, what it’s doing is producing clones that won’t all work the same way.
the key stat in hs is wins and losses
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
the key stat in hs is wins and losses
Assuming you’re talking about pitchers, that’s a position that’s changed dramatically, especially over the last couple of decades. People have come to realize that a pitcher’s wins and losses are too much tied to how the rest of the players perform. Rather than being something strictly dependent on the pitcher. When a pitcher can get a win or a loss without even throwing a pitch, W’s and L’s lose a lot of their luster.
If you’re talking about a team perspective, then I agree to a certain degree.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
the key stat in hs is wins and losses
TR: That is a loaded response. If you're talking team W/L, I would say this is exactly the reason why HS pitchers are abused. Get as many wins as possible and if the kid doesn't survive to 19, who cares?
It depends greatly on the coach, how & if he develops #4-6 on his staff. Every big school has a couple of pitchers. The coach can ride them or keep them healthy. Depends on the opportunity you give the rest of the staff...
If you're talking about pitcher's individual W/L, I can see your point to some extent. The kid who can pitch effectively enough to win is the kid you want piching for you. He's the kid who can win 1-0 or 7-5 depending on the day. With a big lead, he pitches to contact on strike one, might give up some hits but doesn't walk anyone after the lead is established. In a close game, he paints the corners, goes deeper into counts, works for every out, etc.
Basically, he's the kid who competes to win the ball game. When the coach takes him out, he argues about it. He comes into the den when he gets home and wants to quit HS ball because that "old *** doesn't get it!" I live with one of those.
My point still holds, if the coach is calling the pitches, the pitcher can't be that pitcher unless the coach lets him compete.
I'd like to bump this thread just to see some opinions. We recently spoke with Vince Gennaro, president of SABR, on the HS Baseball Web Radio and he is a weekly contributor to Clubhouse Confidential on MLB Network. While watching the show, I've seen that a lot of emphasis is put on WHIP for pitcher evaluation. It got me thinking that there could possibly be an even more accurate way to evaluate in this respect.
I realize that this is nearly impossible to compute in high school for the same reasons listed above, but for college and above it is possible and quite easy for analysis. Here is my question:
Theoretically, wouldn't opponent's OPS be a better indicator than WHIP? OPS factors all aspects of WHIP into its calculation plus acknowledges if the hit was an extra base hit or not. There's a big difference between giving up 10 singles in nine innings and 5 singles, 3 doubles and 2 home runs in those same nine innings. The results may or may not show up in ERA, but it would most certainly always show up in opponent's OPS.
I realize that this is nearly impossible to compute in high school for the same reasons listed above, but for college and above it is possible and quite easy for analysis. Here is my question:
Theoretically, wouldn't opponent's OPS be a better indicator than WHIP? OPS factors all aspects of WHIP into its calculation plus acknowledges if the hit was an extra base hit or not. There's a big difference between giving up 10 singles in nine innings and 5 singles, 3 doubles and 2 home runs in those same nine innings. The results may or may not show up in ERA, but it would most certainly always show up in opponent's OPS.
Interesting thought....when I do the stats for my son's HS team, I do track OOPS.
In 2011, the lowest OOPS was .538, with a 1.14 WHIP
The team average OOPS was .774, with a 1.77 WHIP
In contrast, the highest OOPS was 1.06, with a 3.11 WHIP
In 2011, the lowest OOPS was .538, with a 1.14 WHIP
The team average OOPS was .774, with a 1.77 WHIP
In contrast, the highest OOPS was 1.06, with a 3.11 WHIP