Graduate School Questions

Be careful !!

I am not sure you can go back two years hence and apply for a redshirt

Why was it not done the year he injured?

Interesting question you raise, because with the new transfer rules, he would have to sit out a year, meaning that he would be entering his 6th year of school the year he is eligible to play.

I don't have an answer, but it did raise this scenario.

I believe the sit out rule would not apply or could be waived due to having graduated. I am not sure of this but know of a player from Holy Cross that graduated last year now on the roster at UCF and feel this would not be an issue.

I would like to ask a variation of the original post. If play 4 yrs of baseball in college, are you allowed to pay a different sport in graduate school, i.e. is eligibility across the board, or for that sport?

quote:

Originally posted by dominick:
I would like to ask a variation of the original post. If play 4 yrs of baseball in college, are you allowed to pay a different sport in graduate school, i.e. is eligibility across the board, or for that sport?

For NCAA you have 5 years from the day you take your first class as a full time college student, to compete in 4 years of competition.

So no, you would have no eligibility left.

quote:

I would like to ask a variation of the original post. If play 4 yrs of baseball in college, are you allowed to pay a different sport in graduate school, i.e. is eligibility across the board, or for that sport?

dominick, the rules have probably changed since then, but my husband was swimmer in college, and played water polo in grad school. But it was many moons ago, and he was on academic scholarship in both cases. He's still a swimmer, and a nerd.

jmepop, even if he can't play, I hope he keeps grad school in his thought process. Without a doubt, my MS increased my salary $15K a year. It should increase his marketability, and maybe the job market will be better in a year or two.

jmepop,
For D1, Rule 14.1.9 shows that a graduated 5th year student may play if he has eligibility left, and is attending the school he graduated from. If he is a transfer, 14.1.9.1 says that he needs to meet the requirements for the one time transfer exception. Baeball players who transfer after 8/1/08 do not qualify for the one-time transfer exception, unless they were non-recruited at the original school, and never received athletic aid. (14.5.5.2.10.1)

So I don't think the scenario will work. And, even he were to stay at his original school, he would need obtain an injury waiver. A waiver is not granted by the school, but rather is under the jurisdiction of the conference. As TRhit suggests, I suspect that it is more difficult to justify the hardship after two years have elapsed.

If he were to consider a D2 school, the one-time transfer exception is available. He'd still need the hardship waiver.

It's tricky to extrapolate issues with D1 transfers, even considering players who are at a new school in 2008. If they transferred befroe Aug 1, they don't need to sit.

We are just investigating grad school. Might as well do it when things are tough. BB program says they will see if they can find some money for him. Also offered him an unpaid BB asst job with a paid instructors job at a clinic. He is also investigating instate status since he has lived in an apt for 3 years, has a SS number and a drivers licence. He is thinking of taking his PHD and becoming a prof.

dominick,

A player at a D1 gets 4 seasons of competition, and these seasons are measured separately. He also gets 5 calendar years from date of first enrollment at any collegiate institiution, as CPLZ told you.

So it is possible for a player to play 4 seasons in one sport, and have one season of eligibility left in another sport. He's got to compete every year to make that fit into 5 calendar years.

BobbleHeadDoll,

Wow that is great that your son is thinking about his masters degree and possibly a career in teaching. That is awesome to hear.Off topic I know as ususal but none the less nice to see these boys go on after baseball and start thinking about their careers.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
He is also investigating instate status since he has lived in an apt for 3 years, has a SS number and a drivers licence.

I would imagine the rules vary state to state, but I know in several of the states surrounding Illinois that time spent as a full time student in the state does not qualify for resident status if previous residency was established out of state prior to arrival at school.


TFG,
So, as a hypothetical example, play 4 years of football, stay at same school, then in your fifth year run 1 year of track, is allowable?

CPLZ,

I think your hypothetical example works, and moreover, the student wouldn't need to stay at the same school, assuming no previous transfer, because track qualifies for the one-time exception. The transfer rules apply to the new school, and to the sport in which the student will participate.

14.5.5.2.10 (a) "The student is a participant in a sport other than baseball, basketball, bowl subdivision football or men’s ice hockey at the institution to which the student is transferring." I doubt anybody here cares, but the transfer rules for Championship Division football are more complicated.

TR

I asked that question when the injury occurred and as I recall I was told that they didn't do it because they were strictly a 4 year school, no graduate courses available so unless he wanted to declare a 2nd major and take a 5th year it was a moot point. At current tuition prices that has never really been an option. I also seem to recall they said that if we chose the alternative I am suggesting now that the medical hardship would have to be filed by the next school. At the time the 1 year sit out rule was not in place so that wasn't a concern.

Quite honestly I am not sure this is an avenue that we will pursue but it sure seems that the transfer rule should not apply to a student that graduates and the medical hardship is easy to document. The school did indicate at the time we asked the questions that they would grant a transfer request under these circumstances as long as we chose another school out of conference. As far as athletic aid Patriot League schools don't offer it, only need or merit based money so hopefully that wouldn't be a holdup.

Heck I am not even sure many coaches would want a new position player for just one year but figure it is at least something to consider. When I discuss it with JME I can tell he has enough on his plate just taking courses and preparing for the season. Thinking about grad school hasn't really seemed to hit his radar right now.

Fan thankyou, we are very excited about how things have turned out. He also is getting engaged to the most wonderful southern girl. Things couldn't be much better. He has been asked to be an asst coach next year and to teach at a pitching clinic which he is now doing when possib;e.I think the prof thing is to stay around BB.
CPLZ I think you are right. I know a guy from here that got residency status in Michigan after 1 year. Not sure what he did but I intend to ask him.

.
TFG...

So let me get this straight....For a baseball player only....

Redshirt has graduated in 4 years from school #1...and has a fifth year of baseball eligibility left....Wants to go to school #2 take graduate courses and play ball.

He can go play baseball for school #2....at the end of the season ONLY if he was "non-recruited at the original school (#1), and never received athletic aid"...

....meaning that this cannot happen for players on scholarship at school #1.

...However non-recruited walk on players who made the roster and never received baseball $, DO have this option.

Correct?.


44
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From what I understand the player in question is entering his 4th year of baseball--he is not a redshirt--after this spring his eligibility is done--you have 5 years to get your 4 years of playing time--

Technically he is entering his 4th year of baseball but in season 2 he only played in 4 games getting injured in the 4th game. It is my understanding that you can apply for a medical hardship for that season if you have played in less than 20% of the games in the season. I don't know of any time limit for making that application and that is why I am asking the question. It seems to me that he would still have another year of eligibility assuming the medical hardship is granted. The other question that I don't think has been addressed is, how would you go about generating interest from potential graduate schools. The player really can't make contact during his season but is it ok for an interested party to do it.

observer44,

Yep, that's how I read the rules. But 14.1.9 (Grad/PostBaccalaureate players are OK if they stay at the first college) was written first. Then, in 1996 the possibility of transferring via the one-time exception was added (14.1.9.1). The one-time transfer rule itself was modified (and consequently indirectly modified 14.1.9.1) in 2006 to allow a non-recruited player, who never received athletic aid to be eligible for the one-time exception, even if he was playing basketball, football, or ice hockey, which were the only sports for which the one-time exception wasn't available at that time 14.5.5.2.10.1).

Then, in 2008, baseball was added to the list of sports which can't use the one time exception.

So there was a ripple affecting baseball graduate students which may or may not have been intended.

It's interesting to me that in 2005, a proposal allowing transfer graduate students to play was passed through all the NCAA committees, adopted into the rules, but which failed during the override period, with 46 override requests! The rationale was: "A student-athlete who earned his or her undergraduate degree has achieved the primary goal of graduation and should be permitted to choose a graduate school that meets both his or her academic and athletics interests, regardless of his or her previous transfer history." This strikes me a emminently reasonable, but the member institutions voted overwhelming (196-89-2) against it.

It is clear that there are multiple reasons why transfers are not favored by the NCAA. In 2000, a proposal to disallow transfers for D1 baseball, softball, and women's volleyball was justified with: "The sports of baseball, softball and women's volleyball have revenue-producing capability on many campuses. This proposal is intended to slow down the free flow of student-athletes from one program to another just as it has done in other identified sports (i.e., basketball, football and men's hockey) that produce significant revenue. Additionally, the sport of baseball has one of the highest attrition and lowest graduation rates of all sports in Division I due to early professional signings and the liberal application of the transfer exception rule. As a result, some institutions find themselves having to completely restock their team rosters on an annual basis." In 2005, a similar proposal failed.

On the other hand, the successful 2007 proposal listed only academic progress as the reason for adoption.

Meanwhile, the exception to the exception (14.5.5.2.10.1) passed with the rationale: "An institution's commitment to a student-athlete who was not recruited and was not awarded athletics aid is minimal and, in the spirit of student-athlete well-being, should not restrict a student-athlete from eligibility for the one-time transfer exception."

So there are two major themes here. (1) The effect of transfers on academic progress, and (2) the financial impact on colleges if their students transfer out. Seems to me that (1) is a noble but clumsy reason that intends good for the student, and (2) intends good for the member colleges.

And I don't understand how graduate students are important to either one.

The big question is can he get a Med RS after 2 years. Once you graduate you are not a transfer student.

If he played only 3 in 4 with waiver I think he still has the year left but he is listed as a senior.
Might try calling the NCAA to see how far back you can go to declare the waiver. That would be the key here.
I thought that the transfer rule was not in effect if there was no graduate school avbaliable?

I am just throwing out possibilities, have no clue what those rules really mean.

I agree that the NCAA should be called. My ratonal is that once he graduates he is not listed at all. He has fulfilled his requirements even if he got a BB scholly. He also has fulfilled the RPI concerns of the NCAA. Legally he should be a free agent. It would be interesting to know what the answer is.

If he does not have a redshirt for the one year he played just 4 games he has played 4 years and his college career is done at 4 years . I doubt very much he can get a redshirt two years after the fact

TFG

Your ability to feret out rules and information is greatly appreciated and honestly quite amazing. Thanks.

I think I will take the suggestions of others and contact the NCAA and pose the question.

Regarding the possibility of a hardship waiver after two years have elapsed:

The NCAA doesn't administer the waiver process, the conference (the new school, in jmepop's scenario) does, unless the school is independent(14.2.4.2). I suppose that the process varies among the conferences, but all will have to follow this D1 rule: "14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation, from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with any hardship-waiver request."

The availabilty (or lack) of that documentation may impact the possibility of getting the waiver.

As an example, the Big 12 Waiver form shows that the conference wants waiver requests to be filed by July 15 of the season of the injury. If the request is belated, the school needs to supply a reason. The physician's statement form asks who advised the player to discontinue competition, and why. I suppose the answer had better be that the physician (not the school's athletic trainer) had provided that advice.

I think that other conferences want an actual letter from the physician, written at the time of diagnosis, that recommends stopping competition.