Haverford

Kimb27 posted:

My son is visiting Haverford for the 2nd time and overnight.  Wondering if anyone has about the program and the atmosphere. We really like the coach. TIA

A player that I coached is in the program now. His parents are some of my best friends. I will send you a PM 

There was a story in the New York Times a couple years ago about the connection between Haverford baseball players and MLB front offices.  Apparently there is a strong alumni connection.  I found this to be a fascinating perspective on how a D3 ball player can make a career out of the game at the highest levels.  Here's the link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/0...nce-in-baseball.html

You are far more advanced in your process, ADBONO personal connection is one of the best decision points.

Below are some visuals:

Interesting, most of their players are from out-of-state

2019 Distribution by State

Distribution by Position

2018 Distribution by State

2017 Distribution by State

Team Performance last 5 years

Baseball budget for last 10 years.

Smitty28 this is one of the selling points for us.  My S wants to go into Sports Journalism. collegebaseballinsights, that's great info! I always look at the diversity of the roster as a huge plus. Thanks for taking the time to answer!

Kimb27 posted:

Smitty28 this is one of the selling points for us.  My S wants to go into Sports Journalism. collegebaseballinsights, that's great info! I always look at the diversity of the roster as a huge plus. Thanks for taking the time to answer!

No problem.

Here is there 2018 Equity in Athletes Insights.

"The Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act requires co-educational institutions of postsecondary education that participate in a Title IV, federal student financial assistance program, and have an intercollegiate athletic program, to prepare an annual report to the Department of Education on athletic participation, staffing, and revenues and expenses, by men's and women's teams. The Department will use this information in preparing its required report to the Congress on gender equity in intercollegiate athletics."

Here is a comparison of schools within the Conference.

2019

2018

Note, you will see some subtle difference between current and previous year.

Roster Size (Website/EADA)- what the school maintains on their official website vs what they report to Department of Education

Financials

Operating (Game-Day) Expenses

All expenses an institution incurs attributable to home, away, and neutral-site intercollegiate athletic contests (commonly known as game-day expenses), for (A) Lodging, meals, transportation, uniforms, and equipment for coaches, team members, support staff (including, but not limited to team managers and trainers), and others; and (B) Officials.

Total Expenses

All expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities. This includes appearance guarantees and options, athletically related student aid, contract services, equipment, fundraising activities, operating expenses, promotional activities, recruiting expenses, salaries and benefits, supplies, travel, and any other expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities.

Equity in Athletics for the reporting year in question is released in February of following year.

Great info. Attrition numbers are good to see.

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

You are far more advanced in your process, ADBONO personal connection is one of the best decision points.

 

Below are some visuals:

Interesting, most of their players are from out-of-state

2019 Distribution by State

Distribution by Position

2018 Distribution by State

2017 Distribution by State

 

 

Team Performance last 5 years

Baseball budget for last 10 years.

Personal connections have been far more effective in driving the recruiting process than scouting services. That is true in the case of every player I have helped advance from HS to college. 

Haverford is on my 2021 son's long list, and I would love to hear what people have to say as well, not just about their baseball program but about the college as a whole.  It is quite small (much smaller than my son's big public high school), but seems to get high marks from college rankings.  Please post here what you can. 

My 2020 son and I visited this summer.  Great school, campus is beautiful (lots of open space and trees, but very close to Philadelphia), and HC Beccaria impressed me very much.  It's on my son's current very-short list.  (Fwiw, son was also pleased to see that Bryn Mawr, a women's college, is next door, and he hopes contributes to a strong female/male imbalance in the area.)

A couple of other notes:  Haverford is a very small school (a plus IMO), but students can take classes at Swarthmore or Bryn Mawr (and vice versa), and as I recall also can take advantage of any concerts or other events on the other campuses.  The three schools make up the "Tri-College Consortium."  Tri-College students also can take classes at Penn (but only if a class is not offered within the consortium, I think).

Haverford was founded as a Quaker school, but is non-sectarian now.  They  place great emphasis on their honor code, and rely on students to make rules and policies for the college to an extent that is very unusual in my experience.  I recommend a visit.  I have joined my kids on a lot of college tours and the schools tend to blur together, but Haverford stood out to me as a distinctive institution.

Thanks Chico. We come from Quakers! But, I asked when we met the coach if was really Quaker at all at this point and you are correct. The Honor Code is huge and I love the consortium aspect. I grew up not far from there and there is so much to do as a college kid with about 30 schools within 20 miles and of course Philly. He's going the last weekend of Sept for the overnight and to watch a practice and alumni game.  Hoping it feels comfortable for him.

LuckyCat posted:

Haverford is on my 2021 son's long list, and I would love to hear what people have to say as well, not just about their baseball program but about the college as a whole.  It is quite small (much smaller than my son's big public high school), but seems to get high marks from college rankings.  Please post here what you can. 

Truthfully, it's a fine school. But to enjoy the experience at a small school like that you have to really want to go there. Not "I would go there",  it has to be "I want to go there". It's an average sized high school in terms of size. There aren't going to be 300 person parties or Tuesday night parties. You will get a very specific type of student there. That may be what you guys are looking for but its not for everybody, make sure he does his homework.

Truthfully, outside a handful of small LA colleges I could never really justify the tuition for one. Schools like Williams, Tufts, Amherst make sense. The others - I could get the same degree from Penn State and most likely be in a much better position when I graduate. I hear a lot of talk about alumni connections and students who want to study business, but the vast majority of these schools are not target schools for anybody in finance/banking and only pump out 300-500 alumni a year. A school like PSU is going to churn out 10k alumni each year and are going to have bigger, better facilities more opportunities, lower tuition, etc. Then again, there are going to be more of the elite at smaller LA colleges. Just know the ballpark you're playing in and what you want out of it. If he wants a small school with a more dedicated student body and a broader social and academic experience that might be the way to go. If he's a social butterfly looking to stick to a set curriculum and have a ton of activities and opportunities on campus I would look elsewhere.

PABaseball posted:

Truthfully, it's a fine school. But to enjoy the experience at a small school like that you have to really want to go there. Not "I would go there",  it has to be "I want to go there". It's an average sized high school in terms of size. There aren't going to be 300 person parties or Tuesday night parties. You will get a very specific type of student there. That may be what you guys are looking for but its not for everybody, make sure he does his homework.

Truthfully, outside a handful of small LA colleges I could never really justify the tuition for one. Schools like Williams, Tufts, Amherst make sense. The others - I could get the same degree from Penn State and most likely be in a much better position when I graduate. I hear a lot of talk about alumni connections and students who want to study business, but the vast majority of these schools are not target schools for anybody in finance/banking and only pump out 300-500 alumni a year. A school like PSU is going to churn out 10k alumni each year and are going to have bigger, better facilities more opportunities, lower tuition, etc. Then again, there are going to be more of the elite at smaller LA colleges. Just know the ballpark you're playing in and what you want out of it. If he wants a small school with a more dedicated student body and a broader social and academic experience that might be the way to go. If he's a social butterfly looking to stick to a set curriculum and have a ton of activities and opportunities on campus I would look elsewhere.

I appreciate your perspective PABaseball, but, based on my own experience, I don't share this view.

I have an older son who is a rising junior at a small liberal arts college here in the south.  It has a good academic reputation and a strong and loyal alumni network, but it is not "Ivy adjacent," as they say, and doesn't rank quite as high as Haverford on most college rankings.  He could have gone to one of the big public universities in our part of the country, but he chose this small school instead and has never looked back.  I see how he has thrived there, and the quality of the education and attention he is receiving from committed professors in classes often with less than 20 students (he has brought home papers he has written and I've seen the kinds of thoughtful feedback he gets from them) and how those professors and other administrators at his college have supported him and encouraged him to reach for things and stretch himself, such that he has attained things (like really interesting and challenging internships and leadership positions) that he might not have pursued if he was an anonymous face in a sea of 20,000, 30,000, or more students.

Of course, small colleges aren't everyone's cup of tea.  And, I went to one of those big state schools like Penn State and I did fine.  But, I don't think I got as good an education or was put in as good a "position" upon graduation as my son at this small liberal arts college.  He plans to go to law school after he graduates, and I can see (as a lawyer myself) that they are preparing him very well for that next adventure.

The financial end of things, of course, can change the calculus for people.  My son was fortunate enough to receive generous scholarships from this school that made it affordable enough for us to let him go there.  We also saved from the moment he was born to be able to say yes if he wanted to go to a school like this.  I don't regret for a minute what we have spent on his education.

I believe the son of member cgc3 played from 2008-11 at Haverford. He hasn't logged in lately, but he may answer a PM if you're interested.

LuckyCat posted:

PABaseball posted:

Truthfully, it's a fine school. But to enjoy the experience at a small school like that you have to really want to go there. Not "I would go there",  it has to be "I want to go there". It's an average sized high school in terms of size. There aren't going to be 300 person parties or Tuesday night parties. You will get a very specific type of student there. That may be what you guys are looking for but its not for everybody, make sure he does his homework.

Truthfully, outside a handful of small LA colleges I could never really justify the tuition for one. Schools like Williams, Tufts, Amherst make sense. The others - I could get the same degree from Penn State and most likely be in a much better position when I graduate. I hear a lot of talk about alumni connections and students who want to study business, but the vast majority of these schools are not target schools for anybody in finance/banking and only pump out 300-500 alumni a year. A school like PSU is going to churn out 10k alumni each year and are going to have bigger, better facilities more opportunities, lower tuition, etc. Then again, there are going to be more of the elite at smaller LA colleges. Just know the ballpark you're playing in and what you want out of it. If he wants a small school with a more dedicated student body and a broader social and academic experience that might be the way to go. If he's a social butterfly looking to stick to a set curriculum and have a ton of activities and opportunities on campus I would look elsewhere.

I appreciate your perspective PABaseball, but, based on my own experience, I don't share this view.

I have an older son who is a rising junior at a small liberal arts college here in the south.  It has a good academic reputation and a strong and loyal alumni network, but it is not "Ivy adjacent," as they say, and doesn't rank quite as high as Haverford on most college rankings.  He could have gone to one of the big public universities in our part of the country, but he chose this small school instead and has never looked back.  I see how he has thrived there, and the quality of the education and attention he is receiving from committed professors in classes often with less than 20 students (he has brought home papers he has written and I've seen the kinds of thoughtful feedback he gets from them) and how those professors and other administrators at his college have supported him and encouraged him to reach for things and stretch himself, such that he has attained things (like really interesting and challenging internships and leadership positions) that he might not have pursued if he was an anonymous face in a sea of 20,000, 30,000, or more students.

Of course, small colleges aren't everyone's cup of tea.  And, I went to one of those big state schools like Penn State and I did fine.  But, I don't think I got as good an education or was put in as good a "position" upon graduation as my son at this small liberal arts college.  He plans to go to law school after he graduates, and I can see (as a lawyer myself) that they are preparing him very well for that next adventure.

The financial end of things, of course, can change the calculus for people.  My son was fortunate enough to receive generous scholarships from this school that made it affordable enough for us to let him go there.  We also saved from the moment he was born to be able to say yes if he wanted to go to a school like this.  I don't regret for a minute what we have spent on his education.

It goes to show everybody's journey and decision making process is a individual choice.   Good stuff.  Good dialog.

LuckyCat posted:

PABaseball posted:

Truthfully, it's a fine school. But to enjoy the experience at a small school like that you have to really want to go there. Not "I would go there",  it has to be "I want to go there". It's an average sized high school in terms of size. There aren't going to be 300 person parties or Tuesday night parties. You will get a very specific type of student there. That may be what you guys are looking for but its not for everybody, make sure he does his homework.

Truthfully, outside a handful of small LA colleges I could never really justify the tuition for one. Schools like Williams, Tufts, Amherst make sense. The others - I could get the same degree from Penn State and most likely be in a much better position when I graduate. I hear a lot of talk about alumni connections and students who want to study business, but the vast majority of these schools are not target schools for anybody in finance/banking and only pump out 300-500 alumni a year. A school like PSU is going to churn out 10k alumni each year and are going to have bigger, better facilities more opportunities, lower tuition, etc. Then again, there are going to be more of the elite at smaller LA colleges. Just know the ballpark you're playing in and what you want out of it. If he wants a small school with a more dedicated student body and a broader social and academic experience that might be the way to go. If he's a social butterfly looking to stick to a set curriculum and have a ton of activities and opportunities on campus I would look elsewhere.

I appreciate your perspective PABaseball, but, based on my own experience, I don't share this view.

I have an older son who is a rising junior at a small liberal arts college here in the south.  It has a good academic reputation and a strong and loyal alumni network, but it is not "Ivy adjacent," as they say, and doesn't rank quite as high as Haverford on most college rankings.  He could have gone to one of the big public universities in our part of the country, but he chose this small school instead and has never looked back.  I see how he has thrived there, and the quality of the education and attention he is receiving from committed professors in classes often with less than 20 students (he has brought home papers he has written and I've seen the kinds of thoughtful feedback he gets from them) and how those professors and other administrators at his college have supported him and encouraged him to reach for things and stretch himself, such that he has attained things (like really interesting and challenging internships and leadership positions) that he might not have pursued if he was an anonymous face in a sea of 20,000, 30,000, or more students.

Of course, small colleges aren't everyone's cup of tea.  And, I went to one of those big state schools like Penn State and I did fine.  But, I don't think I got as good an education or was put in as good a "position" upon graduation as my son at this small liberal arts college.  He plans to go to law school after he graduates, and I can see (as a lawyer myself) that they are preparing him very well for that next adventure.

The financial end of things, of course, can change the calculus for people.  My son was fortunate enough to receive generous scholarships from this school that made it affordable enough for us to let him go there.  We also saved from the moment he was born to be able to say yes if he wanted to go to a school like this.  I don't regret for a minute what we have spent on his education.

I believe both perspectives (PABaseball and Lucky Cat) are equally true. 

The small, HA D3 will be a great experience for those seeking a liberal arts education (which provides a great foundation for graduate school), being able to interact with intellectuals and getting intimate attention from professors.  Baseball is likely available for most decent high school players

The big school experience gives you the weekend football experience, the band, fight songs etc., and a more focused education (Engineering, Business etc.), which helps you land a good job right away out of graduation.  But, Baseball is only available to the very elite high school players.

Both can be great experiences...it all depends on what the student wants.

AD2018 posted:

LuckyCat posted:

PABaseball posted:

Truthfully, it's a fine school. But to enjoy the experience at a small school like that you have to really want to go there. Not "I would go there",  it has to be "I want to go there". It's an average sized high school in terms of size. There aren't going to be 300 person parties or Tuesday night parties. You will get a very specific type of student there. That may be what you guys are looking for but its not for everybody, make sure he does his homework.

Truthfully, outside a handful of small LA colleges I could never really justify the tuition for one. Schools like Williams, Tufts, Amherst make sense. The others - I could get the same degree from Penn State and most likely be in a much better position when I graduate. I hear a lot of talk about alumni connections and students who want to study business, but the vast majority of these schools are not target schools for anybody in finance/banking and only pump out 300-500 alumni a year. A school like PSU is going to churn out 10k alumni each year and are going to have bigger, better facilities more opportunities, lower tuition, etc. Then again, there are going to be more of the elite at smaller LA colleges. Just know the ballpark you're playing in and what you want out of it. If he wants a small school with a more dedicated student body and a broader social and academic experience that might be the way to go. If he's a social butterfly looking to stick to a set curriculum and have a ton of activities and opportunities on campus I would look elsewhere.

I appreciate your perspective PABaseball, but, based on my own experience, I don't share this view.

I have an older son who is a rising junior at a small liberal arts college here in the south.  It has a good academic reputation and a strong and loyal alumni network, but it is not "Ivy adjacent," as they say, and doesn't rank quite as high as Haverford on most college rankings.  He could have gone to one of the big public universities in our part of the country, but he chose this small school instead and has never looked back.  I see how he has thrived there, and the quality of the education and attention he is receiving from committed professors in classes often with less than 20 students (he has brought home papers he has written and I've seen the kinds of thoughtful feedback he gets from them) and how those professors and other administrators at his college have supported him and encouraged him to reach for things and stretch himself, such that he has attained things (like really interesting and challenging internships and leadership positions) that he might not have pursued if he was an anonymous face in a sea of 20,000, 30,000, or more students.

Of course, small colleges aren't everyone's cup of tea.  And, I went to one of those big state schools like Penn State and I did fine.  But, I don't think I got as good an education or was put in as good a "position" upon graduation as my son at this small liberal arts college.  He plans to go to law school after he graduates, and I can see (as a lawyer myself) that they are preparing him very well for that next adventure.

The financial end of things, of course, can change the calculus for people.  My son was fortunate enough to receive generous scholarships from this school that made it affordable enough for us to let him go there.  We also saved from the moment he was born to be able to say yes if he wanted to go to a school like this.  I don't regret for a minute what we have spent on his education.

I believe both perspectives (PABaseball and Lucky Cat) are equally true. 

The small, HA D3 will be a great experience for those seeking a liberal arts education (which provides a great foundation for graduate school), being able to interact with intellectuals and getting intimate attention from professors.  Baseball is likely available for most decent high school players

The big school experience gives you the weekend football experience, the band, fight songs etc., and a more focused education (Engineering, Business etc.), which helps you land a good job right away out of graduation.  But, Baseball is only available to the very elite high school players.

Both can be great experiences...it all depends on what the student wants.

You have to be way better than “most decent high school players” to play baseball at Haverford.  It is (probably) a top 50 D3 program. 

Haverford is every bit the college as the mentioned NESCAC’s. Kids from these schools pour into New York finance, Washington politics and top grad schools. 

adbono posted:

AD2018 posted:

LuckyCat posted:

PABaseball posted:

 

 

I believe both perspectives (PABaseball and Lucky Cat) are equally true. 

The small, HA D3 will be a great experience for those seeking a liberal arts education (which provides a great foundation for graduate school), being able to interact with intellectuals and getting intimate attention from professors.  Baseball is likely available for most decent high school players

The big school experience gives you the weekend football experience, the band, fight songs etc., and a more focused education (Engineering, Business etc.), which helps you land a good job right away out of graduation.  But, Baseball is only available to the very elite high school players.

Both can be great experiences...it all depends on what the student wants.

You have to be way better than “most decent high school players” to play baseball at Haverford.  It is (probably) a top 50 D3 program. 

Great school so I am not taking a shot here but...they aren't a top 50. They aren't even top 3 in the Centennial which is not the toughest league in the Mid Atlantic. 

Most decent HS players can't play at good D3 baseball programs, which Haverford certainly qualifies for. 

old_school posted:

Great school so I am not taking a shot here but...they aren't a top 50. They aren't even top 3 in the Centennial which is not the toughest league in the Mid Atlantic. 

Most decent HS players can't play at good D3 baseball programs, which Haverford certainly qualifies for. 

I have no dog in this fight and I've never seen a Centennial Conference game, but Haverford was 3rd in the conference in 2019    (Prior years they were 5th, then 2d two years in a row before that.)

Seriously though:  Since Johns Hopkins is 2x or more larger than the other schools in the conference, I take it they are the proverbial 300 lb. gorilla.  Are the others perennially playing catch-up?  

I can confirm the coach is a good guy and doesn't say he wants you unless he REALLY does. The field is gorgeous for a D3.  The top four/five teams in the conference are very competitive, despite Hopkins usually being the bully on the block. Baseball culture is fun and they do send an unusual # of guys into pro ball mgmt as do a number of other LA colleges (Amherst, for example).  Just dropped first year son off at Swarthmore. He was recruited at Haverford but thought it was too small for him. So he's going to a big school like Swarthmore ().

SMOKEMEINSIDE that made me laugh!  May be making a visit there too.  Thanks for the insight.  My son really likes the coach and his candor. He seems to really want him there, so we will see how it goes after the overnight.  We picked the perfect weekend, there's an intrasquad game and then an alumni game and BBQ. so, we will all get a great feel for the team and culture.

Chico Escuela posted:

old_school posted:

Great school so I am not taking a shot here but...they aren't a top 50. They aren't even top 3 in the Centennial which is not the toughest league in the Mid Atlantic. 

Most decent HS players can't play at good D3 baseball programs, which Haverford certainly qualifies for. 

I have no dog in this fight and I've never seen a Centennial Conference game, but Haverford was 3rd in the conference in 2019    (Prior years they were 5th, then 2d two years in a row before that.)

Seriously though:  Since Johns Hopkins is 2x or more larger than the other schools in the conference, I take it they are the proverbial 300 lb. gorilla.  Are the others perennially playing catch-up?  

Correct with an overall record for 5 yrs of about .500 baseball. They are solid team but not top tier. If you don’t get to see a lot games you might be suprised what is out there. 

old_school posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

old_school posted:

Great school so I am not taking a shot here but...they aren't a top 50. They aren't even top 3 in the Centennial which is not the toughest league in the Mid Atlantic. 

Most decent HS players can't play at good D3 baseball programs, which Haverford certainly qualifies for. 

I have no dog in this fight and I've never seen a Centennial Conference game, but Haverford was 3rd in the conference in 2019    (Prior years they were 5th, then 2d two years in a row before that.)

Seriously though:  Since Johns Hopkins is 2x or more larger than the other schools in the conference, I take it they are the proverbial 300 lb. gorilla.  Are the others perennially playing catch-up?  

Correct with an overall record for 5 yrs of about .500 baseball. They are solid team but not top tier. If you don’t get to see a lot games you might be suprised what is out there. 

Old School, I hope it was clear I was just kidding around with my comment about Haverford's conference record.  I like the college, but I know next to nothing about the baseball program other than that I hear good things about the HC and I know they have a number of alumni in MLB front offices.

I'm curious though:  When you say I might be surprised what is out there--do you mean surprised positively or negatively (by the level of play, I think you mean? or something else?)?  I have seen almost no D3 baseball, so I really don't know what to expect.

I have seen a lot of D3 baseball, a ton of D1 baseball, and even more JuCo baseball. Haverford is pretty good and you can’t judge them just by their record.  Unlike many schools they don’t put their best lineup on the field in non-conference games. 

I've also seen very little D3 baseball but remember how HA D3 Middlebury beat the living snot out of Dartmouth (on their field) this Spring ... with big contributions by the freshman son of one of our regular contributors!! I'm confident it takes a whole lot more to play at these schools than being a "decent HS player."

LuckyCat posted:

PABaseball posted:

Truthfully, it's a fine school. But to enjoy the experience at a small school like that you have to really want to go there. Not "I would go there",  it has to be "I want to go there". It's an average sized high school in terms of size. There aren't going to be 300 person parties or Tuesday night parties. You will get a very specific type of student there. That may be what you guys are looking for but its not for everybody, make sure he does his homework.

Truthfully, outside a handful of small LA colleges I could never really justify the tuition for one. Schools like Williams, Tufts, Amherst make sense. The others - I could get the same degree from Penn State and most likely be in a much better position when I graduate. I hear a lot of talk about alumni connections and students who want to study business, but the vast majority of these schools are not target schools for anybody in finance/banking and only pump out 300-500 alumni a year. A school like PSU is going to churn out 10k alumni each year and are going to have bigger, better facilities more opportunities, lower tuition, etc. Then again, there are going to be more of the elite at smaller LA colleges. Just know the ballpark you're playing in and what you want out of it. If he wants a small school with a more dedicated student body and a broader social and academic experience that might be the way to go. If he's a social butterfly looking to stick to a set curriculum and have a ton of activities and opportunities on campus I would look elsewhere.

I appreciate your perspective PABaseball, but, based on my own experience, I don't share this view.

I have an older son who is a rising junior at a small liberal arts college here in the south.  It has a good academic reputation and a strong and loyal alumni network, but it is not "Ivy adjacent," as they say, and doesn't rank quite as high as Haverford on most college rankings.  He could have gone to one of the big public universities in our part of the country, but he chose this small school instead and has never looked back.  I see how he has thrived there, and the quality of the education and attention he is receiving from committed professors in classes often with less than 20 students (he has brought home papers he has written and I've seen the kinds of thoughtful feedback he gets from them) and how those professors and other administrators at his college have supported him and encouraged him to reach for things and stretch himself, such that he has attained things (like really interesting and challenging internships and leadership positions) that he might not have pursued if he was an anonymous face in a sea of 20,000, 30,000, or more students.

Of course, small colleges aren't everyone's cup of tea.  And, I went to one of those big state schools like Penn State and I did fine.  But, I don't think I got as good an education or was put in as good a "position" upon graduation as my son at this small liberal arts college.  He plans to go to law school after he graduates, and I can see (as a lawyer myself) that they are preparing him very well for that next adventure.

The financial end of things, of course, can change the calculus for people.  My son was fortunate enough to receive generous scholarships from this school that made it affordable enough for us to let him go there.  We also saved from the moment he was born to be able to say yes if he wanted to go to a school like this.  I don't regret for a minute what we have spent on his education.

It works both ways. If you're heading to a massive school (20k+) then you're going to have to put in the legwork and make sure you're not another face in the 250 person lecture. Sure there are going to be smaller classes at a school with only 1500 kids, but there are still discussion sections at the large publics. English, labs, history classes will all have sections of around 20.

Either way I get what you're saying. My point was more or less you have to really want  to go there. It can't just be a yeah it's a good school I'll go. That has to be the atmosphere you want. Still a very good school and can open doors. The point was that in relation to the price tag there could be better options if you were not all in on wanting the small school feel. If small school is what is desired then it's a no brainer to take a closer look at. 

Baseball Mom2020 I guess it would have to be a decision regarding playing time.  Will your son play at the low D1 like he would at the D3? And I may be wrong, but are there low D1s with the same type of academics as a HA D3? Lots kids get drafted out of D3 and JUCO. If you're good, they find you. Especially pitchers.

Chico Escuela posted:

old_school posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

old_school posted:

 

Old School, I hope it was clear I was just kidding around with my comment about Haverford's conference record.  I like the college, but I know next to nothing about the baseball program other than that I hear good things about the HC and I know they have a number of alumni in MLB front offices.

I'm curious though:  When you say I might be surprised what is out there--do you mean surprised positively or negatively (by the level of play, I think you mean? or something else?)?  I have seen almost no D3 baseball, so I really don't know what to expect.

You might be surprised how good it is. Many people don't understand even on this forum. The comments made sometimes while not necessarily intentional are just uninformed and cheapen what the game is. From the commitment required, to the time demanded, to the effort put in from the players. Even comments like  "most decent HS player"

Maybe I misunderstood how the decent is being used but the lineups I see day after day at the D3 level are filled with HS guys who were first team players...not my definition of decent. Pitching depth is really the biggest glaring weakness. 

Whatever it is all good. 

baseball mom2020 posted:

A little off topic but - my son has had interest from HA very low D1 and several HA D3 Nescac. Yesterday while talking to someone (whose kid played baseball in college) they said go for the D1 because D3 is pretty much "club" baseball and he will never get noticed. I don't think thats true but its left this nagging thought in the back of my mind. So with academics being pretty equal is it better to play in a very low D1vs high Nescac?

My point, thank you.

Baseballmom, if you son is being recruited by a low level HA D1 and Nescac who do you want him to get noticed by? 

How do you define "better to play" what is the grading criteria? So much of it is an individual choice and preference but playing low level D1 HA will probably get you a record of 15-40 or so and having your teeth kicked in for the first 5 weeks of the season by teams totally out of your league...how does that sound for better? 

Edit - "D3 is pretty much "club" baseball and he will never get noticed."- sorry but this comment by whomever you were talking to is just inaccurate and to be honest stupid. I have a son playing D3 baseball and a 2nd one playing D1 club baseball, they aren't the same, they aren't close and your informant doesn't know a damn thing about what they speak. 

Kimb27 posted:

Baseball Mom2020 I guess it would have to be a decision regarding playing time.  Will your son play at the low D1 like he would at the D3? And I may be wrong, but are there low D1s with the same type of academics as a HA D3? Lots kids get drafted out of D3 and JUCO. If you're good, they find you. Especially pitchers.

"Lots of kids get drafted out of D3" is not really true.  A few kids get drafted.  This is where doing research matters.  All these things collegebaseballinsights keeps posting on here; look at how many players play summer ball, and high-level summer ball, that's an interesting number, varies widely among D3s.  For low D1s, there are low-baseball-level D1s that are HA, and there are those that are not.  Look at the % of juniors and seniors who are transfers (JUCO, or from P5) at these schools; some are as high as 80%, and those are the players who actually get playing time (look at the stats).  So just going to a low-level D1 is not a guarantee of anything; you have to look at each school specifically.

PABaseball posted:

It works both ways. If you're heading to a massive school (20k+) then you're going to have to put in the legwork and make sure you're not another face in the 250 person lecture. Sure there are going to be smaller classes at a school with only 1500 kids, but there are still discussion sections at the large publics. English, labs, history classes will all have sections of around 20.

Either way I get what you're saying. My point was more or less you have to really want  to go there. It can't just be a yeah it's a good school I'll go. That has to be the atmosphere you want. Still a very good school and can open doors. The point was that in relation to the price tag there could be better options if you were not all in on wanting the small school feel. If small school is what is desired then it's a no brainer to take a closer look at. 

What you are saying is how to choose a college if playing baseball is not in the picture.  But on this site, playing baseball is usually a (big) part of the decision.  Most people do not make a choice between playing baseball at a large state D1 or at a D3 LAC.  Certainly many make the choice for large school without baseball over small school with baseball, and I know we all say choose a school where you would be happy if baseball ended, but if baseball is at all a priority, then you are limited to the schools that want you to play baseball. Are you implying that "non-D1 players" shouldn't be thinking about baseball at all?  It's not all about making it to the next level, some of it is about playing the game where you are.

smokeminside posted:

I can confirm the coach is a good guy and doesn't say he wants you unless he REALLY does. The field is gorgeous for a D3.  The top four/five teams in the conference are very competitive, despite Hopkins usually being the bully on the block. Baseball culture is fun and they do send an unusual # of guys into pro ball mgmt as do a number of other LA colleges (Amherst, for example).  Just dropped first year son off at Swarthmore. He was recruited at Haverford but thought it was too small for him. So he's going to a big school like Swarthmore ().

You should rent a place in Greenwich CT for the month of April.

It simply doesnt matter if a player is at a D3 or a D1: if he has pro-potential he will be found and drafted/signed. It doesn't matter whether he plays in a college quasi-MILB stadium or on a field without dirt basepaths, he will be found. 

(If the player won't start for a "low HA D1" he's not likely to move to the next level, anyway.)

If baseball has earned a player the leverage to get admitted to that HA school (regardless of division), the family has done its job. [And the HA definition I'm using is extremely narrow.]

Focus on the opportunities a college offers him for life after college: internships, grad school options, employment options. Focus of what the college offers him during college: being taught to critically think, being taught to communicate clearly in writing and orally, fulfilling (as best as possible) his intellectual potential, becoming a leader, finding and exploring new heretofore unexpected interests, socializing opportunities, building post-college networks, and the rest which matures him. That is what a decade of baseball focus has earned for the overwhelming majority of college players; going pro is for a small minority (and within this group the vast majority will be working in the real world within just a few years of the draft, anyway).

Where will your son thrive (as best can be guessed for a teenager)? Some in small LAs, some not; some in rural areas, some in cities.

Baseball got him there, so figure out where the best springboard to his intellectual success and future employment lies.

Imo.

smokeminside posted:

I can confirm the coach is a good guy and doesn't say he wants you unless he REALLY does. The field is gorgeous for a D3.  The top four/five teams in the conference are very competitive, despite Hopkins usually being the bully on the block. Baseball culture is fun and they do send an unusual # of guys into pro ball mgmt as do a number of other LA colleges (Amherst, for example).  Just dropped first year son off at Swarthmore. He was recruited at Haverford but thought it was too small for him. So he's going to a big school like Swarthmore ().

Nice Smoke!  Swat is a cozy campus, 30minute train ride to downtown Philly.  HC Midkiff is a solid guy and straight shooter...my 2018 spoke seriously with him and really liked his ambition to build his baseball program.  The field is nice, hopefully they improved the bleachers for the (numerous fans...). 

Friends son just graduated playing LAX for Swat and really like it....kid is now starting analyst program at GS after some cache internships offered  to Swat kids.

Former club teammate of son chose low D1 HA school in Patriot league.  Solid lefty hitter and OF... rec'd minimal  ABs...he was miserable not being able to get on the field and still traveled the D1 schedule all the time.  He truly wishes he wasn't so caught up playing D1 and opted for a HA D3 where he likely would have thrived and been able to play at least half the games.  Kid is far from pro prospect material (that can always change), but he lacked the work ethic to refine his game which seriously reduces upside.  This Patriot school has a student population less than Middlebury I believe....  

As stated above, the difference between D1 and D3 is primarily pitching. The frustrating thing for son, and frankly, for me to watch, were the non-conference game opposition where the secondary P's were throwing less than 75 with 60mph CB.  It was miserable to watch, and son was hitting a spread of 10-15mph for FB....so many hitters lunging at the damn ball just to get into play. Patience required.

The NESCAC D3 games I've seen had really solid MIF's and a CF, every other team seemed to lack depth behind the plate...

With lower D1's it was really hit or miss with their ability....Conference game with a good D3 would threaten them easily.  But still the difference would be pitching depth.  

Focus on the best school to help position your son for his future.  Get out of the D1 think.

JMO

EDIT: Apologies for off the OP thread...the mentioning of Swat, the comps with Low D1 HA seemed to lead down this path.

baseball mom2020 posted:

... Yesterday while talking to someone (whose kid played baseball in college) they said go for the D1 because D3 is pretty much "club" baseball and he will never get noticed. I don't think thats true but its left this nagging thought in the back of my mind. So with academics being pretty equal is it better to play in a very low D1vs high Nescac?

That is far too broad of a statement.  There are D3 programs and conferences that are quite competitive and have players drafted with some relative regularity (yes, I know, not many from D3 in general).  And, there are some D1 programs and conferences that would really surprise the average college baseball fan with how low the level of play is.  Most folks "whose kid played baseball in college" do not have a broad scope of the college baseball landscape outside of that which their son played, some local play and what they see on TV.   Take comments with a grain of salt.  You really have to dig with each program and conference.

As example, if a player chose a D1 over a D3 because of the D1 label and that schools was a perennial loser but the D3 school was competitive year in and year out, he would most likely come to regret his choice. 

To add:  I have seen more than a few "all-league" level HS players sit or get cut from some better D3 teams.

Bingo Cabbage

Anyone stating D3 ball is equivalent to club baseball doesn’t know what they’re talking about. D3 players work just as hard as D1 players. D1 players are bigger, faster and stronger making the game quicker and more challenging.

On average, about fifteen D3 players are drafted per year. A handful more get signed as free agents. It’s usually late blooming pitchers throwing 90+ senior year.

If a player is recruited by several D3’s and one mid major D1 is the D1 overrating him and he’s a long shot to earn playing time? Or have a lot of D1’s misjudged the player? Chances are it’s the former.

RJM posted:

Anyone staring D3 ball is equivalent to club baseball doesn’t know what they’re talking about. D3 players work just as hard as D1 players. D1 players are bigger, faster and stronger making the game quicker and more challenging.

On average, about fifteen D3 players are drafted per year. A handful more get signed as free agents. It’s usually late blooming pitchers throwing 90+ senior year.

If a player is recruited by several D3’s and one mid major D1 is the D1 overrating him and he’s a long shot to earn playing time? Or have a lot of D1’s misjudged the player? Chances are it’s the former.

Or, the player woke up to: odds of playing professionally? The mediocre acceptance rate mid D1 will not help position me for initial career options out of college. (Advisory, Banking, HFund, Law, Medicine....)  

Concur with thoughts about college club ball.

Interesting: on sons NESCAC team there were several juniors that likely had only D3 opportunity's coming out of school, epitome of late bloomers, played solid ball the past season and would have competed well for Mid D1 IF starting spots.  One of the kids had an offer from a solid UNC school, but opted to be able to play right away at a HA D3, and leverage his baseball toward a career in medicine.    

D3 ball varies greatly across the country.  A few years ago I sat and watched a Beloit College vs St Norbert game and both starting pitchers were throwing in the mid to high 70's... St Norbert had a 3B who really stood out (forgot his name, doesn't matter) with great bat speed compared to the rest of the field that day.  Later in talking to one of the St Norbert coaches he said that the kid had numerous mid major D1 offers but preferred to stay closer to home where he knew he would start and bat 3rd in the lineup from the first game of freshman year through his entire career...

the D3 teams that go to the college World Series would whup a heckuva lot of D1 teams.  The worst D3's in the nation would get destroyed by the best high school teams in Illinois, let alone Texas or Florida.  It really varies

If my son ends up going D3, I would look at the potential of him being drafted as a lottery ticket.  There would be a multitude of other considerations that would come into play as to choosing the right fit

Haverford has quality pitching depth coming back next year and some experienced position players.  Shortstop was 2X conference defensive POY and they develop players.  Coaching is top notch and good players will see field, depending on depth chart needs, immediately if they can help.

Student body is very diverse, team is close knit bunch.  Academics are challenging and school has great reputation from all top grad schools.  

“Decent HS Players” Does not apply.  Small roster for D3, as program is not used to bolster admission. School has thousands of applicants annually and admits < 20%. 

If Coach has a spot with “support”, give it a good look.  It’s an invaluable opportunity for the right “fit”.  And that doesn’t mean that all of the players are cut from the same mold, as they are very diverse as well, but they have exceptional chemistry. Seems like the team chemistry and coaching are a big part of what keeps them competitive, year in year out.  

The overall record can be thrown out as the coach schedules good teams and gives all players an opportunity to prove it on the field.  

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Kimb27 posted:

Smitty28 this is one of the selling points for us.  My S wants to go into Sports Journalism. collegebaseballinsights, that's great info! I always look at the diversity of the roster as a huge plus. Thanks for taking the time to answer!

No problem.

Here is there 2018 Equity in Athletes Insights.

"The Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act requires co-educational institutions of postsecondary education that participate in a Title IV, federal student financial assistance program, and have an intercollegiate athletic program, to prepare an annual report to the Department of Education on athletic participation, staffing, and revenues and expenses, by men's and women's teams. The Department will use this information in preparing its required report to the Congress on gender equity in intercollegiate athletics."

 

 

Here is a comparison of schools within the Conference.

2019

2018

Note, you will see some subtle difference between current and previous year.

Roster Size (Website/EADA)- what the school maintains on their official website vs what they report to Department of Education

 

Financials

Operating (Game-Day) Expenses

All expenses an institution incurs attributable to home, away, and neutral-site intercollegiate athletic contests (commonly known as game-day expenses), for (A) Lodging, meals, transportation, uniforms, and equipment for coaches, team members, support staff (including, but not limited to team managers and trainers), and others; and (B) Officials.

Total Expenses

All expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities. This includes appearance guarantees and options, athletically related student aid, contract services, equipment, fundraising activities, operating expenses, promotional activities, recruiting expenses, salaries and benefits, supplies, travel, and any other expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities.

Equity in Athletics for the reporting year in question is released in February of following year.

I do not know enough about Haverford to know if this makes a difference. However if I was looking at schools and found out a schools head coach was not Full time, I would pause. Does a good coach that is part time stick around? If he is successful does another program cherry pick him? 

However maybe the other teams in the conference/region are the same way. Capitol in the OAC had a part timne coach for many years, and they just had trouble competing, until they went with a Full time coach and were able to upgrade. They have struggled the last couple of years however.

Trying to check now, but I believe all the head coaches in the NCAC are full time.  

Coach Beccaria is full time as far as I know.   That has got to be bad info.

tzer posted:

Coach Beccaria is full time as far as I know.   That has got to be bad info.

It may be that he is full time but he has other duties outside of baseball. So coaching is a part time Gig and his other duties make it so he has a full time position. 

Beccaria has been at Haverford 20 years and is also Assistant Athletic Director. I don’t think he’s part-time. 

it is REALLY tough to go from D3 to pro ball.  I know about this kid because he grew up near us.  Hit .378 with a .495 OBP & .692 SLG pct as a Senior at a good D3 with 10 HR's, All Conference, honorable mention All American, all time leader in SB's in school history, and didn't get drafted...

https://www.denisonbigred.com/.../johnson_tanner_cqvs

Honestly, I can't believe thoughts of pro ball or "being seen" are used in the same sentence as D3 or low D1.  This should absolutely not be a consideration when making a college decision.  I hear this way too much, not just here but amongst dads of players my son played with.  I've seen more than a few kids college education derailed because they didn't see the big picture.

3and2Fastball posted:

it is REALLY tough to go from D3 to pro ball.  I know about this kid because he grew up near us.  Hit .378 with a .495 OBP & .692 SLG pct as a Senior at a good D3 with 10 HR's, All Conference, honorable mention All American, all time leader in SB's in school history, and didn't get drafted...

https://www.denisonbigred.com/.../johnson_tanner_cqvs

 

The problem judging D3 hitters is the pitching they face over the course of the season. It’s better for their chances if they can get in a summer league with D1 prospects. With pitchers if the gun says 93 it doesn’t matter if it’s in the CWS or a hayfield. 

I’m gonna be honest,

Anyone talking about draft position as a major consideration in deciding between D1 and D3 baseball is likely wasting their time.  Baseball players are like water, they find their level, but anyone entering college as a first year player should have a pretty good idea about their pro potential since the MLB draft was 6 weeks ago and your kid was eligible.  If he didn’t get a call, and didn’t get a P5 offer outta HS, pro ball is the last thing that I would consider when evaluating D1 at a Patriot League school (per se) or D3 at a NESCAC or Centennial school...

Chico Escuela posted:

Beccaria has been at Haverford 20 years and is also Assistant Athletic Director. I don’t think he’s part-time. 

That's exactly why I said I dont know haverford well. Those are all things I would look at if I had a sin being recruited. 

However he is  part time coach, but also AAD. Those responsibilities together make him a FT employee. But he has other responsibilities, besides baseball. 

Plus since he had been there since long my concern would be unjustified. 

My point is if I saw a coach was PT, it would give me pause. And would require more research. 

tzer posted:

Haverford has quality pitching depth coming back next year and some experienced position players.  Shortstop was 2X conference defensive POY and they develop players.  Coaching is top notch and good players will see field, depending on depth chart needs, immediately if they can help.

Student body is very diverse, team is close knit bunch.  Academics are challenging and school has great reputation from all top grad schools.  

“Decent HS Players” Does not apply.  Small roster for D3, as program is not used to bolster admission. School has thousands of applicants annually and admits < 20%. 

If Coach has a spot with “support”, give it a good look.  It’s an invaluable opportunity for the right “fit”.  And that doesn’t mean that all of the players are cut from the same mold, as they are very diverse as well, but they have exceptional chemistry. Seems like the team chemistry and coaching are a big part of what keeps them competitive, year in year out.  

The overall record can be thrown out as the coach schedules good teams and gives all players an opportunity to prove it on the field.  

 

This post was written by someone that has intimate knowledge of the program. The content should carry more weight than other posts. 

Now I understand why HS Web Baseball is one of the best forums for College Baseball.

Thank you for sharing the knowledge.

3and2Fastball posted:

D3 ball varies greatly across the country.  A few years ago I sat and watched a Beloit College vs St Norbert game and both starting pitchers were throwing in the mid to high 70's... St Norbert had a 3B who really stood out (forgot his name, doesn't matter) with great bat speed compared to the rest of the field that day.  Later in talking to one of the St Norbert coaches he said that the kid had numerous mid major D1 offers but preferred to stay closer to home where he knew he would start and bat 3rd in the lineup from the first game of freshman year through his entire career...

the D3 teams that go to the college World Series would whup a heckuva lot of D1 teams.  The worst D3's in the nation would get destroyed by the best high school teams in Illinois, let alone Texas or Florida.  It really varies

If my son ends up going D3, I would look at the potential of him being drafted as a lottery ticket.  There would be a multitude of other considerations that would come into play as to choosing the right fit

Agree with all of this. There can be a wide variance of quality within D3. Some teams are really good, and can give some D1's a good game. Most aren't, and can't, but still play good baseball. As always, there are teams that are not the greatest, and struggle to fill their roster, for a variety of reasons.

Kimb27 posted:

SMOKEMEINSIDE that made me laugh!  May be making a visit there too.  Thanks for the insight.  My son really likes the coach and his candor. He seems to really want him there, so we will see how it goes after the overnight.  We picked the perfect weekend, there's an intrasquad game and then an alumni game and BBQ. so, we will all get a great feel for the team and culture.

Are you going to drop by Swarthmore on your way to or from Haverford?

adbono posted:

tzer posted:

Haverford has quality pitching depth coming back next year and some experienced position players.  Shortstop was 2X conference defensive POY and they develop players.  Coaching is top notch and good players will see field, depending on depth chart needs, immediately if they can help.

Student body is very diverse, team is close knit bunch.  Academics are challenging and school has great reputation from all top grad schools.  

“Decent HS Players” Does not apply.  Small roster for D3, as program is not used to bolster admission. School has thousands of applicants annually and admits < 20%. 

If Coach has a spot with “support”, give it a good look.  It’s an invaluable opportunity for the right “fit”.  And that doesn’t mean that all of the players are cut from the same mold, as they are very diverse as well, but they have exceptional chemistry. Seems like the team chemistry and coaching are a big part of what keeps them competitive, year in year out.  

The overall record can be thrown out as the coach schedules good teams and gives all players an opportunity to prove it on the field.  

 

This post was written by someone that has intimate knowledge of the program. The content should carry more weight than other posts. 

Adbono, I thought my post was pretty ok, too.  

smokeminside posted:

adbono posted:

tzer posted:

Haverford has quality pitching depth coming back next year and some experienced position players.  Shortstop was 2X conference defensive POY and they develop players.  Coaching is top notch and good players will see field, depending on depth chart needs, immediately if they can help.

Student body is very diverse, team is close knit bunch.  Academics are challenging and school has great reputation from all top grad schools.  

“Decent HS Players” Does not apply.  Small roster for D3, as program is not used to bolster admission. School has thousands of applicants annually and admits < 20%. 

If Coach has a spot with “support”, give it a good look.  It’s an invaluable opportunity for the right “fit”.  And that doesn’t mean that all of the players are cut from the same mold, as they are very diverse as well, but they have exceptional chemistry. Seems like the team chemistry and coaching are a big part of what keeps them competitive, year in year out.  

The overall record can be thrown out as the coach schedules good teams and gives all players an opportunity to prove it on the field.  

 

This post was written by someone that has intimate knowledge of the program. The content should carry more weight than other posts. 

Adbono, I thought my post was pretty ok, too.  

I’m sorry you are offended. Did I refer to you using the wrong pronoun? 

No offense taken!  Appreciate your comments on the board, and to me personally.

The Centennial Conference just announced that they are playing baseball this spring - as they should.  Haverford and Bryn Mawr announced that they will not play. Absolutely disgusting.

With their decisions, Bryn Mawr, Haverford, and Swarthmore (they were first!!),  attempt to cement their self-absorbing elitist-ness (!!).  I don't know if that's a word, but you get my point.

(oh, full disclosure: many of you know this but if you don't, I'm a Swarthmore parent)

Exactly how does the leading authority on COVID (Johns Hopkins), a fellow Centennial Conference member, decide that it is possible and these 3 decide otherwise?   I know Swat doesn’t have everyone on campus and decided not to play before the school year began.   But how does HC and BM bring everyone back for the fall and spring and then not follow through with the conference decision based on “science”?   Wouldn’t Hopkins have a decent understanding of the science such that HC could follow their lead(?)

it is unconscionable really...

And in the spirit of elitism, baseball should be CANCELED!!!!

@smokeminside posted:

With their decisions, Bryn Mawr, Haverford, and Swarthmore (they were first!!),  attempt to cement their self-absorbing elitist-ness (!!).  I don't know if that's a word, but you get my point.

(oh, full disclosure: many of you know this but if you don't, I'm a Swarthmore parent)

That's really such a shame.  Swarthmore had developed a very strong program, I feel awful for the upperclass athletes who committed to go there that they can't participate when even other schools in the conference have.  Just awful.

full disclosure here.   I have a Son that plays at HC and decided to stay home and take a leave year due, in part, to Swat’s decision and the belief that they wouldn’t play.   He had no idea that things would improve and the conference would play and HC would opt out.   That said, most all of his teammates did attend this year to burn a year of their HC eligibility with the hopes of being able to play some sort of competitive season.   While it would have been difficult to stay home and watch teammates play, it is even more difficult to have your teammates (especially seniors) lose their only remaining chance while the rest of the conference (minus Swat) plays baseball.   This is hard on him as these seniors were teammates for 2 years and his best friends on campus.   Very hard to have a good feeling for your eventual alma mater when it makes a decision that is so unjust.   My son will be fine, he’s got 3 to play 3 somewhere, likely 2 more at HC and 1 postgrad if he wants.   However, if it weren’t for the love that he has for the rest of the teammates and the coaches (who are OUTSTANDING), he would be looking for somewhere else to play all 3.  

***now if someone wants to hire a very accomplished coach, he’d be first on my list😉

@tzer posted:

full disclosure here.   I have a Son that plays at HC and decided to stay home and take a leave year due, in part, to Swat’s decision and the belief that they wouldn’t play.   He had no idea that things would improve and the conference would play and HC would opt out.   That said, most all of his teammates did attend this year to burn a year of their HC eligibility with the hopes of being able to play some sort of competitive season.   While it would have been difficult to stay home and watch teammates play, it is even more difficult to have your teammates (especially seniors) lose their only remaining chance while the rest of the conference (minus Swat) plays baseball.   This is hard on him as these seniors were teammates for 2 years and his best friends on campus.   Very hard to have a good feeling for your eventual alma mater when it makes a decision that is so unjust.   My son will be fine, he’s got 3 to play 3 somewhere, likely 2 more at HC and 1 postgrad if he wants.   However, if it weren’t for the love that he has for the rest of the teammates and the coaches (who are OUTSTANDING), he would be looking for somewhere else to play all 3.  

***now if someone wants to hire a very accomplished coach, he’d be first on my list😉

Very well said my friend. Student athletes that go to Centennial Conference schools, Ivies, etc. don’t choose those schools only for the education or only for the sports. It’s a place where they can do both - and those schools mentioned have taken both away for 2 years, unnecessarily I would argue. IMO it’s unconscionable - especially since they are collecting full tuition before announcing their ridiculous decisions. If Johns Hopkins is playing spring sports no school in the nation has a leg to stand on claiming it’s not safe to play.

To begin by undermining my bona fides: My son deferred at a Centennial school (not Swat or Haverford) for what would have been his freshman year in 2020-21...

Hopkins certainly is a medical authority. But the Ivies have some pretty good medical schools as well, and decided not to play. But I think this decision isn’t really driven by medical concerns so much as equitable ones—or one view of equity, anyway.

Seems to me the issue driving the cancellation of spring sports at the relevant schools is mainly the desire to avoid creating special rules for athletes. I don’t know what the rules are this semester at Centennial schools, but my daughter’s smallish private university has COVID-era rules that prohibit students from, e.g., leaving town and returning to campus. Spring break was cancelled, and while students may leave campus to go grocery shopping, etc., they are not supposed to travel. (Yeah, a lot of them are doing so anyway.) My daughter’s school is playing sports this spring, which means athletes don’t have to abide by these travel restrictions.  Now, this is a P5 school so maybe this isn’t surprising. But I can see how Haverford and the Ivies could conclude that they don’t want to allow athletes to do things that are forbidden to other students—and other student groups.

I’m not trying to defend the decisions (really). But I understand them. If my kid were told the debate team couldn’t leave campus for tournaments, but his roommate on the baseball team got to travel, I’d wonder about that. (Yes, baseball is played outdoors. Just tossing out an example—and baseball players ride buses together, share the weight room, etc.)

Easy for me to say—my kid wasn’t going to play this spring anyway. I do feel badly for the athletes affected.

I am personally sickened that we lowered the bar so much that we now applaud schools for allowing students to play a low risk sport in the spring outdoors...really bold move woohoo, standing ovation for doing their jobs!  It would have been nice and probably restored my faith in our elitist higher education system to see schools with pandemic-proof resources set an example for this country and play sports with all the extra and very costly bells and whistle testing to prove to the world the pandemic did not beat us...image that kind of leadership and forward thinking.  Where are our Churchills and Roosevelts? 

@2022NYC posted:

I am personally sickened that we lowered the bar so much that we now applaud schools for allowing students to play a low risk sport in the spring outdoors...really bold move woohoo, standing ovation for doing their jobs!  It would have been nice and probably restored my faith in our elitist higher education system to see schools with pandemic-proof resources set an example for this country and play sports with all the extra and very costly bells and whistle testing to prove to the world the pandemic did not beat us...image that kind of leadership and forward thinking.  Where are our Churchills and Roosevelts?

Our Churchills and Roosevelts are turning over in their graves.

You cannot draw a comparison between intercollegiate athletic competition and ANY other extracurricular activity.   That is ludicrous.   The opportunity to play intercollegiate athletics is a finite opportunity, which is obtained through countless sacrifices.  Do not try to tell me that debate is a similar endeavor.   Further, I am sure that debates are being conducted over online platforms (zoom) as are musical events, etc.  But, even if it were an equivalent endeavor, it would be unconscionable to withhold opportunities to those that found a safe way to compete regardless.   To not play an outdoor sport in the current environment because of the risk of travel is an abomination.   Travel will always involve risks.   Are you advocating that we keep the sports teams locked down next year to prevent a bus crash?   Obviously debate wasn’t your thing!

We have nothing to fear but (some) high academic administrations.

@smokeminside posted:

We have nothing to fear but (some) high academic administrations.

Outstanding! My man smoke delivers again!

@tzer posted:

You cannot draw a comparison between intercollegiate athletic competition and ANY other extracurricular activity.   That is ludicrous.   The opportunity to play intercollegiate athletics is a finite opportunity, which is obtained through countless sacrifices.  Do not try to tell me that debate is a similar endeavor.   Further, I am sure that debates are being conducted over online platforms (zoom) as are musical events, etc.  But, even if it were an equivalent endeavor, it would be unconscionable to withhold opportunities to those that found a safe way to compete regardless.   To not play an outdoor sport in the current environment because of the risk of travel is an abomination.   Travel will always involve risks.   Are you advocating that we keep the sports teams locked down next year to prevent a bus crash?   Obviously debate wasn’t your thing!

No, intercollegiate sports are not incomparable (and I say that as the father of an athlete). And I assure you most HA schools don’t view their sports teams as more important than the arts, the science students competing for prestigious international prizes, etc.  Various universities’ glossy alumni mags come to my household—sports do not get outsized mention in the ones from the Ivies and similar institutions  

I did debate in college and HS. (My baseball career ended when I was 15.  Loved the game, but wasn’t good enough.)  Debate involved national competition (including flying to tournaments in some cases), quite a few all-nighters researching and preparing, and was very important to those of us engaged in it (even though, like baseball, it was just a game). I won a state championship, was offered a debate scholarship (yeah, they exist), and ultimately the activity was important in getting me into college. I know many friends who also were passionate about their own extracurriculars, sacrificed for them, and used them to support their college applications.  Frankly, my time might have been better spent on charitable activities or music or science.  But, like trying to master throwing a ball 60’6”, sometimes a particular pursuit just captures a person’s attention even though it has little extrinsic value.

If you want to argue spring sports are uniquely safe, have at it.  (I’m not interested in joining that discussion, but others may be).  As I said earlier, I think permitting sports is inevitably going to mean allowing athletes privileges not granted to other students and other student activities.  I can see why schools might not want to do that.  (Didn’t say I agree—honestly I am not sure what I think.)  But if your position is that Haverford, Yale, et al. ought to regard sports as more important than the other things their students pursue outside class, then I think those university’s faculties and administrations would disagree  

@Chico Escuela posted:

No, intercollegiate sports are not incomparable (and I say that as the father of an athlete). And I assure you most HA schools don’t view their sports teams as more important than the arts, the science students competing for prestigious international prizes, etc.  Various universities’ glossy alumni mags come to my household—sports do not get outsized mention in the ones from the Ivies and similar institutions  

I did debate in college and HS. (My baseball career ended when I was 15.  Loved the game, but wasn’t good enough.)  Debate involved national competition (including flying to tournaments in some cases), quite a few all-nighters researching and preparing, and was very important to those of us engaged in it (even though, like baseball, it was just a game). I won a state championship, was offered a debate scholarship (yeah, they exist), and ultimately the activity was important in getting me into college. I know many friends who also were passionate about their own extracurriculars, sacrificed for them, and used them to support their college applications.  Frankly, my time might have been better spent on charitable activities or music or science.  But, like trying to master throwing a ball 60’6”, sometimes a particular pursuit just captures a person’s attention even though it has little extrinsic value.

If you want to argue spring sports are uniquely safe, have at it.  (I’m not interested in joining that discussion, but others may be).  As I said earlier, I think permitting sports is inevitably going to mean allowing athletes privileges not granted to other students and other student activities.  I can see why schools might not want to do that.  (Didn’t say I agree—honestly I am not sure what I think.)  But if your position is that Haverford, Yale, et al. ought to regard sports as more important than the other things their students pursue outside class, then I think those university’s faculties and administrations would disagree

It is obvious you quit when you were 15.

@tzer posted:

It is obvious you quit when you were 15.

Yep. Settled for a full-tuition ride to a school in USNews’ top 10 and then an Ivy professional degree. I don’t think my life woils have been better if I had managed to eke out a spot on the HS Varsity baseball bench instead of pursuing something I was better suited for. My son, on the other hand, gravitated to baseball early and was much better at it than his old man.  So he pursued his own passions.  Nothing wrong with that.  But I don’t think my son being a pitcher is inherently superior to other kids who may be dancers or musicians or science prize winners.

I have not uttered an unkind word to you; you, however, certainly cant say the same.  

(For the record,  I fought forest fires to earn money during college summers. So despite my lack of baseball skills, I was not (though may today be) a completely pencil-necked geek.)

100% agree, Chico.  Anyway, the only people's business this is is students and parents of students.  If you don't like it, don't send your son there.  It's a business, capitalism works.  Maybe in the future they will get fewer students who don't approve of this kind of cancellation; obviously they don't think so (or don't care).  Why does anyone else care what these schools do?

I say this as a parent whose son's season is also cancelled; I'm disgusted and frustrated too.  I wrote to his school's administration.  My son is taking the opportunity to do new things (coaching at his HS!), so we have to move on.   I'm hoping summer ball happens.

@Chico Escuela posted:

Yep. Settled for a full-tuition ride to a school in USNews’ top 10 and then an Ivy professional degree. I don’t think my life woils have been better if I had managed to eke out a spot on the HS Varsity baseball bench instead of pursuing something I was better suited for. My son, on the other hand, gravitated to baseball early and was much better at it than his old man.  So he pursued his own passions.  Nothing wrong with that.  But I don’t think my son being a pitcher is inherently superior to other kids who may be dancers or musicians or science prize winners.

I have not uttered an unkind word to you; you, however, certainly cant say the same.  

(For the record,  I fought forest fires to earn money during college summers. So despite my lack of baseball skills, I was not (though may today be) a completely pencil-necked geek.)

Not at all trying to be unkind.  It is just obvious in your posts that you were not a high level competitive athlete.   I didn’t do debate, and I wouldn’t think it unkind if you said it was obvious that I didn’t.   Not trying to ruffle anyone’s jimmies.   I’m not at all surprised that those “elite” institutions that you mention equate debate and sports to be equal (I don’t know if they do or not), but I don’t think any debate team should be kept  from competition if they can find a way to do it safely.   To keep sports from playing when they have found a safe way to do it, in the spirit of “fairness”, is typical of those in the “elite” “academia” that don’t understand the value of competition. I applaud schools like Hopkins that get it and I’d sure as hell send my aspiring doctor there over some Ivy resting on reputation.   Hopkins has been a lot more visible in the real world during the pandemic than any of your esteemed Ivies...

@anotherparent posted:

100% agree, Chico.  Anyway, the only people's business this is is students and parents of students.  If you don't like it, don't send your son there.  It's a business, capitalism works.  Maybe in the future they will get fewer students who don't approve of this kind of cancellation; obviously they don't think so (or don't care).  Why does anyone else care what these schools do?

I say this as a parent whose son's season is also cancelled; I'm disgusted and frustrated too.  I wrote to his school's administration.  My son is taking the opportunity to do new things (coaching at his HS!), so we have to move on.   I'm hoping summer ball happens.

I agree with you too.   In the real world, if you tell someone something that you know to be false in order to get someone to provide consideration ($$) and then it is apparent that you did so with intent to deceive, there are consequences as well...

@tzer posted:

Not at all trying to be unkind.  It is just obvious in your posts that you were not a high level competitive athlete.   I didn’t do debate, and I wouldn’t think it unkind if you said it was obvious that I didn’t.   Not trying to ruffle anyone’s jimmies.   I’m not at all surprised that those “elite” institutions that you mention equate debate and sports to be equal (I don’t know if they do or not), but I don’t think any debate team should be kept  from competition if they can find a way to do it safely.   To keep sports from playing when they have found a safe way to do it, in the spirit of “fairness”, is typical of those in the “elite” “academia” that don’t understand the value of competition. I applaud schools like Hopkins that get it and I’d sure as hell send my aspiring doctor there over some Ivy resting on reputation.   Hopkins has been a lot more visible in the real world during the pandemic than any of your esteemed Ivies...

A post that will sound defensive (I suppose because it is):  I spent a tremendous amount of time and money on my son’s pas soon of baseball. I loved (almost) every minute of it, and it was great for him. Sports can be a terror occurs builder of men and women.

But I’d submit that the only reason you can tell I wasn’t a high-level athlete is because I don’t give sports the same priority you do. I have worked on death penalty appeals and litigated cases in the US Supreme Court. I worked and sacrificed for years to be able to do it, and routinely had to perform under pressure. I never pitched an inning of a college game (not could I have)—but I don’t believe I missed out on some crucial component of strength of character because of it. My point is not that I’m All That. (I’m a chubby middle-aged guy with a bad shoulder.  Never been in combat, never ran into a burning building to save someone.). But there are lots of paths, and I don’t think sports has a monopoly on any of the virtues.

@Chico Escuela posted:

A post that will sound defensive (I suppose because it is):  I spent a tremendous amount of time and money on my son’s pas soon of baseball. I loved (almost) every minute of it, and it was great for him. Sports can be a terror occurs builder of men and women.

But I’d submit that the only reason you can tell I wasn’t a high-level athlete is because I don’t give sports the same priority you do. I have worked on death penalty appeals and litigated cases in the US Supreme Court. I worked and sacrificed for years to be able to do it, and routinely had to perform under pressure. I never pitched an inning of a college game (not could I have)—but I don’t believe I missed out on some crucial component of strength of character because of it. My point is not that I’m All That. (I’m a chubby middle-aged guy with a bad shoulder.  Never been in combat, never ran into a burning building to save someone.). But there are lots of paths, and I don’t think sports has a monopoly on any of the virtues.

I commend your achievements.   However I differ from you in my belief that if an activity can be done safely, it should not be prohibited because ALL activities cannot  be done safely.   I don’t think “fairness” is an appropriate reason to prohibit all activity.

My point is...

just because the French kissing team can’t find a way to compete safely due to Covid doesn’t mean that the baseball team shouldn’t be able to compete safely due to Covid

Just out of curiosity, how do you get a baseball team "safely" to an away game?  O.k., I know you'll all throw that one out.  But, it's the same as an orchestra or choir rehearsal.  If you don't have one, you can't have the others.

And fwiw, I think that testing, isolating, etc. were the way to go for all colleges, but I do question the huge sums being spent to allow D1 (non-revenue) teams to play "safely", when the rest of the students don't get their activities.   They are not spending thousands so that the orchestra can play, even if it's a top-ranked orchestra.  They could have scrapped conference play altogether, and had D1 teams play locally, but they did not do that.  Now their athletics budgets are way in the red.

@anotherparent posted:

Just out of curiosity, how do you get a baseball team "safely" to an away game?  O.k., I know you'll all throw that one out.  But, it's the same as an orchestra or choir rehearsal.  If you don't have one, you can't have the others.

And fwiw, I think that testing, isolating, etc. were the way to go for all colleges, but I do question the huge sums being spent to allow D1 (non-revenue) teams to play "safely", when the rest of the students don't get their activities.   They are not spending thousands so that the orchestra can play, even if it's a top-ranked orchestra.  They could have scrapped conference play altogether, and had D1 teams play locally, but they did not do that.  Now their athletics budgets are way in the red.

Ask Hopkins

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO FDR and the Greatest Generation, I offer this humble missive:

Mr. President, Ms. Vice President, Ms.  Speaker, Members of the Senate, and of the House of Representatives, and my good friends, the High School Baseball Websters:

On Tuesday, October 13, 2020, and Wednesday, February 17th, 2021, and Wednesday, March 3, 2021  --- dates which will live in infamy -- our Spring Sports, with their airs of sunny and warmer days, with their greening of trees and grass, with their joyful fans shouting "Hey batter, batter! Scha-wing, batter, batter!" and "Run, Forrest, Run!," --- were cancelled.

No longer are the  players happily harkening to the leather snap of ball against mitt and the ping of bat against ball, the starter pistol's sharp crack or the sweet thud of shot puts.  No, THOSE spring sports were suddenly and deliberately cancelled by the presidents and provosts, the emperors and queens, the Cartel of Evil Umpires of High Academic Schools.

Spring Sports could have been at peace with those schools and were still in conversation with their so-called leaders looking toward the maintenance of every spring's splendor, of peace on the ballfields and tracks of America, from the Central Pacific to the Mid-Atlantic.

For weeks and months before the Garnets, the Fords, the Quakers, the Bulldogs, the Crimson, the Big Red and the Big Green, the Lions and Tigers and Bears (Oh, my!) had their hopes and dreams for a perfect new spring mothballed, the despots of the High Academic Schools fretted and dithered and spoke of the uselessness of continuing to play during the COVID occupation, yet still they noticed no threat or hint of war against or of armed attack.

(Well, they did, but it doesn't fit this narrative).

Always remember the character of the onslaught against us.  No matter how long it may take us, with our righteous might we will win through to absolute victory. We will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.

With confidence in our virtuosity, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph -- so help us God.

PLAY BALL!

Let’s get back to basics. Baseball is still America’s Pastime and this is a baseball message board. Other activities are important but last time I checked choir, orchestra & debate have never been referred to as America’s Pastime. I, for one don’t subscribe to arguments that these activities are as important as baseball. To me they are not. If you want to make that argument this is not the right audience. May I suggest High School Orchestra Web for those opinions. Also life is not fair and never has been. To try and “make it fair” by not allowing activities that can safely be conducted because some others can’t is representative of the misguided delusions of our academic and political leaders.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RYZ6-rort6E

Covid isn't dangerous to young people.  There is no logical reason that any college activity should be shut down.  Old people, overweight people and otherwise unhealthy should self-quarantine and let the rest of the world carry on.

Sucks that these schools are not playing sports this Spring, but let's remember that at these schools sports are an adjunct to the classroom. Kids use Baseball as a means to get into these prestigous schools. Sports is always secondary. If Baseball was the primary reason to have selected a school, you would never have picked these schools.

@tzer posted:

I commend your achievements.   However I differ from you in my belief that if an activity can be done safely, it should not be prohibited because ALL activities cannot  be done safely.   I don’t think “fairness” is an appropriate reason to prohibit all activity.

Here we go again:  At no point did I argue activities that can be done safely shouldn’t be. i said that it may be the case (depending on a given school’s rules) that spring sports can’t be conducted in compliance with the same rules that apply to other activities. For example (again): my daughters college prohibits students from traveling and returning to campus—but the athletics teams will be able to do so. I also said I’m not sure whether I agree or not, but can understand why a school would decide not to treat athletes differently from all other students.

My achievements, of course, are not the point. Although you keep making dismissive, bad faith arguments about the issue, the point is that athletes are not people whose accomplishments set them apart from all other humans. I admire great athletes. But they aren’t inherently better than musicians, mathematicians or or others who try to attain excellence. If my son had been a cellist, I’d probably be posting now on HSOrchestraWeb—and folks there would be just as passionate about music (and probably dismissive about sports).  

@tzer posted:

Ask Hopkins

In August when Hopkins announced that students wouldn’t be permitted to come to campus and all activities would be shut down for fall, there was a thread here in which many folks attacked that decision.  At the time I argued that just maybe we ought to give JHU the benefit of the doubt, given the medical expertise therein.  What a difference six months makes...

Empirical evidence proves it’s possible to play baseball fairly safely—MLB did it. We also know it was expensive and difficult. Which is why I think the schools canceling spring sports are acting less out of public health concerns than other reasons.  

@Chico Escuela posted:

Here we go again:  At no point did I argue activities that can be done safely shouldn’t be. i said that it may be the case (depending on a given school’s rules) that spring sports can’t be conducted in compliance with the same rules that apply to other activities. For example (again): my daughters college prohibits students from traveling and returning to campus—but the athletics teams will be able to do so. I also said I’m not sure whether I agree or not, but can understand why a school would decide not to treat athletes differently from all other students.

My achievements, of course, are not the point. Although you keep making dismissive, bad faith arguments about the issue, the point is that athletes are not people whose accomplishments set them apart from all other humans. I admire great athletes. But they aren’t inherently better than musicians, mathematicians or or others who try to attain excellence. If my son had been a cellist, I’d probably be posting now on HSOrchestraWeb—and folks there would be just as passionate about music (and probably dismissive about sports

and a stimulating conversation that would be...you argue for days over scales...and the fact that they should have been allowed to play as well.

Funny thing, around many people I know, I am the one person arguing that sports are just as good as music, theater, debate, etc...  I'm an orchestra parent as well as a baseball parent (try wondering why your child didn't get into the highest performance group - but I never found a discussion board for that).  In fact, I think students should be able to major in their sport, just like musicians can.

If there weren't so many cases where academic requirements were bent for athletes (yes, including at HAs), this wouldn't be a question.  I don't know if they bend those academic requirements for musicians.

@old_school posted:

and a stimulating conversation that would be...you argue for days over scales...and the fact that they should have been allowed to play as well.

A kid we know could see that his path to first chair of the cello section was blocked by a person in the class ahead of him, so he transferred high schools.  Hm, what does that sound like???

@anotherparent posted:

Funny thing, around many people I know, I am the one person arguing that sports are just as good as music, theater, debate, etc...  I'm an orchestra parent as well as a baseball parent (try wondering why your child didn't get into the highest performance group - but I never found a discussion board for that).  In fact, I think students should be able to major in their sport, just like musicians can.

If there weren't so many cases where academic requirements were bent for athletes (yes, including at HAs), this wouldn't be a question.  I don't know if they bend those academic requirements for musicians.

They can assist with admissions for music.  I am 95% sure my good friends daughter got this chit for Clemson.   She was in the ranges and may have gotten in regardless but a call was made.  I just texted him for confirmation and will update once confirmed.  

Confirmed: "It’s the same recruiting as sports.. each department gets a certain amount of scholarship spots.. music dept at Clemson has 3 scholarship students per year".  She got a ton of money too.  For Chorus.  She sings at Dabo's Christmas party!

My cynical take is that rather than judging a situation on its merits a school will make a decision based on branding.  ("Do we want to do what the Ivy did, or do we want to do what School X did?").

I imagine that this will hurt Haverford's and Swarthmore's recruiting classes in the next few years too.  Do you agree?

@anotherparent posted:

Funny thing, around many people I know, I am the one person arguing that sports are just as good as music, theater, debate, etc...  I'm an orchestra parent as well as a baseball parent (try wondering why your child didn't get into the highest performance group - but I never found a discussion board for that).  In fact, I think students should be able to major in their sport, just like musicians can.

If there weren't so many cases where academic requirements were bent for athletes (yes, including at HAs), this wouldn't be a question.  I don't know if they bend those academic requirements for musicians.

Lol, I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much, but as a person who was into the music world myself at a young age (considered a career in it until I took calculus and realized my abilities there were more marketable), many of the things they discuss here definitely translates.  I know of situations where kids were able to get a leg up on admissions due to their musical abilities, and had a few of them as friends in college.  Our Jazz band concerts had greater attendance than our football team, and the top band travelled a fair amount.  Also, a lot of the character skills I see in sports we had to deal with, including a lot of individual practice, working in smaller groups, and dealing with different personalities.... Just didn't think about it, as it seems like a lifetime ago (not so much focus on music in our community compared to where I grew up).

@Chico Escuela posted:

No, intercollegiate sports are not incomparable (and I say that as the father of an athlete). And I assure you most HA schools don’t view their sports teams as more important than the arts, the science students competing for prestigious international prizes, etc.  Various universities’ glossy alumni mags come to my household—sports do not get outsized mention in the ones from the Ivies and similar institutions  

I did debate in college and HS. (My baseball career ended when I was 15.  Loved the game, but wasn’t good enough.)  Debate involved national competition (including flying to tournaments in some cases), quite a few all-nighters researching and preparing, and was very important to those of us engaged in it (even though, like baseball, it was just a game). I won a state championship, was offered a debate scholarship (yeah, they exist), and ultimately the activity was important in getting me into college. I know many friends who also were passionate about their own extracurriculars, sacrificed for them, and used them to support their college applications.  Frankly, my time might have been better spent on charitable activities or music or science.  But, like trying to master throwing a ball 60’6”, sometimes a particular pursuit just captures a person’s attention even though it has little extrinsic value.

If you want to argue spring sports are uniquely safe, have at it.  (I’m not interested in joining that discussion, but others may be).  As I said earlier, I think permitting sports is inevitably going to mean allowing athletes privileges not granted to other students and other student activities.  I can see why schools might not want to do that.  (Didn’t say I agree—honestly I am not sure what I think.)  But if your position is that Haverford, Yale, et al. ought to regard sports as more important than the other things their students pursue outside class, then I think those university’s faculties and administrations would disagree  

Well, i'm sure as hell not going to argue with a debate champion!

I'm still trying to digest the statement that Bryn Mawr is not participating in baseball this spring.

@Chico Escuela posted:

Yep. Settled for a full-tuition ride to a school in USNews’ top 10 and then an Ivy professional degree. I don’t think my life woils have been better if I had managed to eke out a spot on the HS Varsity baseball bench instead of pursuing something I was better suited for. My son, on the other hand, gravitated to baseball early and was much better at it than his old man.  So he pursued his own passions.  Nothing wrong with that.  But I don’t think my son being a pitcher is inherently superior to other kids who may be dancers or musicians or science prize winners.

I have not uttered an unkind word to you; you, however, certainly cant say the same.  

(For the record,  I fought forest fires to earn money during college summers. So despite my lack of baseball skills, I was not (though may today be) a completely pencil-necked geek.)

Poor bugger. Just imagine, if you coulda thrown a FB and an off speed pitch you coulda been somebody, instead of a bum...

@Smitty28 posted:

Covid isn't dangerous to young people.  There is no logical reason that any college activity should be shut down.  Old people, overweight people and otherwise unhealthy should self-quarantine and let the rest of the world carry on.

Two members of the local NHL team were found to have cases of Myocarditis as a result of their Covid infection, and were shut down for 6 weeks. One player was 19, and in phenomenal shape, even for a world class athlete.

@AD2018 posted:

Sucks that these schools are not playing sports this Spring, but let's remember that at these schools sports are an adjunct to the classroom. Kids use Baseball as a means to get into these prestigous schools. Sports is always secondary. If Baseball was the primary reason to have selected a school, you would never have picked these schools.

This statement implies that the only HA opportunity that an athlete obtains is due to the bending of the rules to “get in”. While that may be true for 2 or 3 players a year, the vast majority of these students are able obtain admission into many HA schools and the opportunity to play a sport is what sways that applicant’s decision to attend that specific school.   That is the case for my son, who attended a HS that was more selective, and higher ranked nationally for academics than Haverford College.   If it wasn’t for baseball, they wouldn’t have had a shot at getting my son to attend there.

And?

The point is that for many of these “little ivy’s”, sports are far more important to their existence and ability to attract students (and future alums that give back) than most people realize.   Incredibly, the sitting president at HC doesn’t seem to understand that this decision may have far reaching effects in the future in many areas (recruiting of rounded students, alumni giving, etc.).

Not saying that bending the rules is how all the rosters are formed at a HA.  Agree, it's maybe 2-3 at most.  These rosters are built from kids who have the ability to play a sport, have the academic skills, and the financial wherewithal.  However, because the size of these schools are so small (typically less than 2,000 students), if you are not an athlete or are not a family legacy, it can be near impossible to get into these schools no matter what SAT and grade combination you have.  Hence, a sport like Baseball is the ticket to getting in.  Yes, you still need the same academic chops as everyone else in the student body...but you can get admitted.  My point...Baseball is used as a vehicle to get into these schools, which in many cases can be a life long 'golden ticket'.

I

@AD2018 posted:

Not saying that bending the rules is how all the rosters are formed at a HA.  Agree, it's maybe 2-3 at most.  These rosters are built from kids who have the ability to play a sport, have the academic skills, and the financial wherewithal.  However, because the size of these schools are so small (typically less than 2,000 students), if you are not an athlete or are not a family legacy, it can be near impossible to get into these schools no matter what SAT and grade combination you have.  Hence, a sport like Baseball is the ticket to getting in.  Yes, you still need the same academic chops as everyone else in the student body...but you can get admitted.  My point...Baseball is used as a vehicle to get into these schools, which in many cases can be a life long 'golden ticket'.

That may be true for some, but I tend to believe that the school stands to benefit more in the long run for having these type students.  

I doubt there will be any long-term impacts to the schools not playing sports in the spring. Because of these schools' long history of academic excellence, demand to attend will continue to be high, they will continue to attract high academic kids who play sports and will continue to get support from alumni.  The administrators hold all the cards.

We will see

@57special posted:

Well, i'm sure as hell not going to argue with a debate champion!

I'm still trying to digest the statement that Bryn Mawr is not participating in baseball this spring.

That was poorly worded on my part, but approximately 25% of Bryn Mawr students are varsity athletes and they are all impacted by this.