High School aged teams should be formed by grade!

quote:

by Will: My kid is not playing for team x so I start my "elite" "travel" team and he plays. Does this happen or am I just babbling on here?

you are right .. of course it happens, that's why there are many 1000's of travel teams -
all you need is a catchy name & some uniforms

travel bb has become a very big business & I know of only 1 program (tho there could be more) who can truely say they are in it purely for love of the game & the kids -

that would be Joe Hayden's Midland Redskins - 2007 Connie Mack WS champs

I think you will find that most of the better travel team programs are run by gentlemen who do not have sons in the program and have a solid coaching staff


Just starting a travel team does not make it "elite"---by the way I hate the term "elite"

ncball - I most definitely agree with you on this topic (and many others too!). We need to get together soon...usual place on the corner 580 and 680 (you know the place with the "good wings" and suds and iced tea for you).

TPM - I don't think we could get much by you. Quack! Quack!

JB,


Midland has a great program.


My son played for the Florida Pokers, Connie Mack. We played against some great teams, Florida Bombers, Midland, Orlando Scorpions, FL Renegades, Dallas Mustangs, East Cobb teams, that's all I can remember right now. These were some of the elite programs in the country back then.

The cost for the summer was about 2500-3000. Included in that cost was all meals, travel, uniforms, insurance fees, hotels, etc. There were no hidden costs. Even when they went to Omaha, everything was paid for.

Arranging to play teams and tournmanets on college campus where coaches could watch was the strength of the program, and the manager had been doing this for 11 YEARS. Auburn, UF, FAU, Nebraska,GA Tech,USF, Stetson, UM, JAcksonville, Creighton,some schools where son played. We did not have to call any coach, it was all done by the manager. Some other schools that saw him play were Clemson, Duke, FSU, Wake Forest, Ole Miss, UNF, MSU, numerous JUCOs just to name a few. I realize that wood bat tournaments have taken over as far as exposure, but I would suppose that coaches love having teams come to play on their field so they can talk to the recruits.

Some people balked at the fee. We did too at first, but for the above cost, we did not have to attend camps to get son seen, or make unofficial visits, which would have probably cost thousands more.
While most of the players all secured 'ships, some didn't, they had to prove that on the field.

Didn't mean to get off track, maybe this should be under travel teams, but the point is all of the players were age appropriate. The coaches came to see the players who they were recruiting that year or those that were unsigned or see new players.

This type of program is a great role model to follow for those you wishing to help playrers to get to the next level. It's a huge undertaking, but very rewarding.

And for those of you able to have yuor player join teams like this, worth every penny.

Bee- Joe does a great job. Always has. That said, Midland is the biggest business operation in youth baseball. They bring in guys every year from all over the country and house them. Their budget is much bigger per team than any in the country. I'm not sure if you want to throw that one out as the only guy who does it "for the love of the game".

quote:

I realize that wood bat tournaments have taken over as far as exposure

Teams still do it.
50% of my sons schedule next summer(Jr. summer)is
playing at College Fields. Double Headers and small
round robbins just for those coaches. I think it is great!

quote:

by ncball: Bee- Joe does a great job. Always has. That said, Midland is the biggest business operation in youth baseball. They bring in guys every year from all over the country and house them. Their budget is much bigger per team than any in the country. I'm not sure if you want to throw that one out as the only guy who does it "for the love of the game"

ncb, I agree w/your accessment, except for the last line - I really can't judge everyone's motive .. but it has become difficult to discern others "love of the game" - from their "love of the $$"
many pgms are run similar to way the UN ran their "oil for food program"

they hyptnotize zombie-like parents into handing over their cash w/a blank stare & a semi-smile

you note their great program & large budget but failed to mention that it ALL comes from "Joe's pocket" ... player fees are -0-, coaches are paid, field complex is 1-rst class, travel & tournaments covered, housing is provided, jobs are available

Bob Cene in Youngstown also ran a similar program until his death a few yrs ago

"you note their great program & large budget but failed to mention that it ALL comes from "Joe's pocket" ... player fees are -0-, coaches are paid, field complex is 1-rst class, travel & tournaments covered, housing is provided, jobs are available"



WOW! Incredible! Oh to have that much money and to be able to have that much fun. I'd love to meet him someday!

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Originally posted by Will:

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Players should play at their talent level not the PC level----

Trhit

PC level? Gee what can that be?

Sooner or later people must realize that talent is what progresses to the next level. I have been on the site for several years. I am an oold timer who played when you had to try out for a team. If you were good enough you made it if not you were cut. I constantly hear the words Elite team travel team being thrown around. I talk to parents who complain about playing time saying to me I paid x amount of money? What does that mean? Scenario: My kid is not playing for team x so I start my "elite" "travel" team and he plays. Does this happen or am I just babbling on here?

Talent is talent.

Yep! That absolutely happens, but it doesn't take long in a tournament to see who is the "elite" team and who is the "PC" team.

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:
My thought to that is- are we trying to accumulate plastic trophies or develop players?

I completely agree. Our team has been this way since inception. We have a great group of 2012 grads and have resisted adding the 2011's that can drop down because of the age.

Besides, after 1 trophy/medal, do the kids even care? All of son's medals sit in a shoebox in his room. They don't matter.

NCBall

Until everyone does do it you are at a clear disadvantage. I coach in a program that went to classes, and I had 12 kids who were eligible to play 16U that were Juniors. Let me tell you it is not an easy thing to do when playing against teams using kids who just got done with a year at a JC. But the kids got the exposure that they needed. The problem is that not everyone understands what we were trying to do.

the rational was that a team w/players in the same grade would be (by ncball) - "A coach coming to watch our game knows that he is seeing a 2010 Grad team and not a (mixed) team of 16's who could be sophomores or juniors" -
presumably because a college coach WOULD be confused by a roster w/different grad dates

quote:

Coach-B says: Let me tell you it is not an easy thing to do when playing against teams using kids who just got done with a year at a JC. But the kids got the exposure that they needed. The problem is that not everyone understands what we were trying to do

count me in there - coachB notes that to challenge his 16U team he must compete at 19U venues (19U games would NOT be scouted by colleges)

Redbird also plays his team up


teams genuinely backing ncballs same grade concept should be committed to play only teams in their same grade



if a college coach is confused by different grad dates on the same roster - do ya really want your guys playing for him??
and certainly 2 different grade level teams competing on the same field would push him over the edge

Let me clear up my post. I coached a team this last summer that was the class of 08's. Kids that were going to be seniors. We played 18U baseball all summer. In the 08 class we had 12 kids that were age eligible to play 16U baseball. And yes we did compete against kids who just got done with there first year of college, but they were still 18. And yes these kids were being looked at because they were JC kids.

And to play against there own grade, we would have to play against JRs or 17U baseball all summer. How many 17U events do you know of?

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
Redbird also plays his team up

My team has always played up and competed very well with the older teams. This past season, we were 27-9 playing up against 14U as a 13U team).

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by Red: My team has always played up and competed very well

soo, if you're already playing at the (technicaly) incorrect level why would you favor restructuring summer ball by grade level?

would you then drop back to your proper age/grade slot, or play up an additional level or two?

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by Red: My team has always played up and competed very well

soo, if you're already playing at the (technicaly) incorrect level why would you favor restructuring summer ball by grade level?

would you then drop back to your proper age/grade slot, or play up an additional level or two?

Nooo...my TEAM is made up of 2012 grads. We "play up" to get more competition. If there were a restructuring of other teams, we would play to whatever level I feel we can compete against.

We specifically avoided playing any 54/80 events this entire year because of the high number of kids who stayed down to play on the smaller fields. To me, it makes no sense for a 6', 200 lb "kid" to play on a 54/80 diamond so they can accrue 20+ HRs. How does that help a kid's development?!?

As a college coach, it makes sense for me to be able to watch a team and know they are in a specific graduating class.

quote:

by Red: Nooo, my TEAM is made up of 2012 grads. We "play up" to get more competition ... As a college coach, it makes sense for me to be able to watch a team and know they are in a specific graduating class.

I do agree w/playing up, but then where's your logic in supporting grad yr grouping?
ya said grad yr would be important to a coach watching YOUR team --
then ya make him watch YOU play (up) vs a team with OTHER grad dates???

to be consistent supporting grade level grouping, you must ONLY play at your own level ...
or the college coach watching your team play UP would be confused (according to Red & ncball) by the other team with players in a different grad class


but - a pro scout would likely rather see players grouped by age ...
it's not be rare for any hs class to have a 2 or even 3 yr age range (ie: jrs could be 16-17-18 yrs old)

college & pro both scout players, NOT teams & many are capable of reading a roster & grad date -
those that aren't usually ask someone nearby

Bee> I think either you're stuck on the team title approach, or maybe you're concerned that parents will hold their kids back a year to try a gain an edge? There are other ways to market kids. I can't see what's so controversial for a org like Norcal to group players by grade; ncball said himself they're all about getting kids into college. BTW, they do that very well, just check out their site.
http://www.norcalbaseball.org/
Teams like Midland need to win the CMWS every year to consider success. I don't think Norcal even plays in a league, but they do get their kids a lot of exposure on the biggest stages, and they still manage to win a big one now and then.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
to be consistent supporting grade level grouping, you can ONLY play at your own level ...
the college coach watching your team play UP would be confused (according to Red & ncball) by the other team with players in a different grad class

Do you ever hear a college coach ask how old a kid is first? Or are they really concerned with when they can get their hands on a player? There really isn't much consistency in age grouping anyway. You see lots of 13,15,17U teams playing up because there just aren't as many leagues or tourneys for the odd ages.

"also - a pro scout would likely rather see players grouped by age ..."

They're not eligible to be drafted by age until 21. Scouts want to know the same thing coaches do... When can I get him?

quote:

They're not eligible to be drafted by age until 21. Scouts want to know the same thing coaches do... When can I get him?

how do all the hs-ers get drafted each yr?

hey, obviously any program can structure their teams the way they want ... but no logical argument has been presented for change from age level grouping

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

They're not eligible to be drafted by age until 21. Scouts want to know the same thing coaches do... When can I get him?

how do all the hs-ers get drafted each yr?

Sorry for the confusion there Bee. I'm just trying to point out that until age 21, the chronological factor really counts most is the date they graduate . That's when they can either be drafted or go to college. It makes logical sense to organize your teams around that date if getting your kids to the next level is your primary goal.
Here's another team that organizes that way. I think you'll find that they do pretty well by their players too. http://eteamz.active.com/abdbulldogs/