High school: pitcher only or pitcher and position

@baseballhs posted:

JV: pitcher/3rd

varsity sophomore and PO/DH

varsity junior/senior: PO

Our coach threw starting pitchers complete games and usually relied on 2-3 to start all district and playoff games.

  In Texas public High Schools play district games on Tuesday & Friday nights. Seems to be common practice for HS coaches to designate 2 kids as starting pitchers and one kid as the primary reliever for district play - and it often stays with those 3 kids getting the lions share of innings regardless of their performance. That decision gets made in early season tournaments (or before) and it never gets revisited.
  I wish that coaches wouldn’t do this. Sometimes there are 2 kids that are clearly the best 2 on the staff and they consistently perform well - and in that case it makes sense. But more often than not there just isn’t that much separation in talent to begin with and often the anointed ones stumble. When that happens I believe other kids should get opportunities - and that just doesn’t happen as often as it should IMO. There is also nothing wrong with a 3 man starting rotation in HS - in fact there are benefits. But you hardly ever see it.

@DD 2024 posted:

Understood.

Yet the scenario exactly argues your case. Please think about it: Highfill was called on to hit at a moment's notice. And then went 3-4 against an elite college pitcher, with little to no practice. He hadn't picked up a bat in over a year, yet clearly had untapped, elite-level skills.

So how many others are there like him?  Is it a handful? Is it dozens? It is hundreds? We don't know. And under the current system, we can't know.

I'm asking: why not?

It was a great accomplishment. But, four at bats is statistics in minute numbers. We don’t know what would happen in 100 or 200 at bats.

I really think in Texas that there should be 3 game series district scheduling at the 5A/6A levels.  You would think more coaches would want to prepare for the 3 game playoff series during the regular season instead of going with the less experienced pitcher in game 3 of the playoffs for the first time.  But what do I know..I am just a parent with absolutely no ability to comprehend..Really about to my limit on travel coaches and twitter hitting gurus dumping on all players' parents for the actions of the few..but that is an entirely different rant....

@adbono posted:

  In Texas public High Schools play district games on Tuesday & Friday nights. Seems to be common practice for HS coaches to designate 2 kids as starting pitchers and one kid as the primary reliever for district play - and it often stays with those 3 kids getting the lions share of innings regardless of their performance. That decision gets made in early season tournaments (or before) and it never gets revisited.
  I wish that coaches wouldn’t do this. Sometimes there are 2 kids that are clearly the best 2 on the staff and they consistently perform well - and in that case it makes sense. But more often than not there just isn’t that much separation in talent to begin with and often the anointed ones stumble. When that happens I believe other kids should get opportunities - and that just doesn’t happen as often as it should IMO. There is also nothing wrong with a 3 man starting rotation in HS - in fact there are benefits. But you hardly ever see it.

This is 100% why our team, year after year, absolutely dominate during season, be nationally ranked, and fall early in playoffs.  There were no developed relievers.  Most district games had one pitcher.  Many were run ruled.  My son's short senior season, he got 3 starts and all were 5 innings where he pitched complete.  Even if we went 7, we rarely used a reliever.  When. you get to playoffs, there are more games and pitch counts get higher...you have to use other guys.  We had to put in guys who really hadn't thrown all season in high stakes games and it didn't pay off. Our team is also known for having multiple guys throwing low to mid 90s, so a lot of good pitchers never see the mound.  I keep thinking "someone" will see a pattern but it doesn't seem to happen.

I agree, they need a 3 game series.  It used to be that way, I think it changed with district realignments a few years ago.

Even with a 2 game series there are big benefits to using a 3 man rotation

Fresh - Starter in CF, pitched mostly in relief, one start on the season on the mound

Soph - Starter CF, was one of 3 starters on the mound, a few relief appearances

Jr and Sr years - Starter at multiple positions (where the pitcher came from). Was the #1 starting pitcher both years. 

My 2021 for the most part stopped pitching when he got to high school.  Throughout little league he was typically the "#1" pitcher on his teams or in that vicinity.  When we wasn't pitching, he was usually at SS.  Throughout little league, pain in his arm throughout the season was normal for him.  He simply played through it.  By the time he got to high school, he was simply sick of carrying that pain all the time so he threw some as a freshman, a little as a sophomore and nothing really since then.  For a little guy, he's got a rocket for an arm.  88+ inf velo and 92+ OF velo.  No clue what he could be throwing off the mound if he still pitched, but you know what?  His arm is now pain free and hopefully in position to throw hard from SS (or elsewhere) for years to come.  I will add this.  There were those in high school (players and coaches) who did harbor resentment towards him for no longer pitching.  They felt it was selfish.  But my kid is literally on a college ball field as I type this out.  Not under the knife for TJ.

On our visit to the school he's playing for now, HC told us he doesn't like the term "PO."  The word isn't uttered in their program and he doesn't really recruit them.  His feeling is that their mindsets are too different from what he's looking for.  He told us his preference is to grab 2-way guys that are more "competitors than pitchers."  He wants that everyday player competitiveness and drive on the mound.  Now, does that mean his roster is 100% full of 2-way players?  No.  But he does whittle down his pitching staff largely from 2-way type guys.  Some could argue that his approach may be flawed, but he's the winningest coach in the history of the program, so it's a tough argument to make.  My kid just started their on Monday so ask me my thoughts a year from now and we can see where I'm at.

@DanJ posted:

My 2021 for the most part stopped pitching when he got to high school.  Throughout little league he was typically the "#1" pitcher on his teams or in that vicinity.  When we wasn't pitching, he was usually at SS.  Throughout little league, pain in his arm throughout the season was normal for him.  He simply played through it.  By the time he got to high school, he was simply sick of carrying that pain all the time so he threw some as a freshman, a little as a sophomore and nothing really since then.  For a little guy, he's got a rocket for an arm.  88+ inf velo and 92+ OF velo.  No clue what he could be throwing off the mound if he still pitched, but you know what?  His arm is now pain free and hopefully in position to throw hard from SS (or elsewhere) for years to come.  I will add this.  There were those in high school (players and coaches) who did harbor resentment towards him for no longer pitching.  They felt it was selfish.  But my kid is literally on a college ball field as I type this out.  Not under the knife for TJ.

On our visit to the school he's playing for now, HC told us he doesn't like the term "PO."  The word isn't uttered in their program and he doesn't really recruit them.  His feeling is that their mindsets are too different from what he's looking for.  He told us his preference is to grab 2-way guys that are more "competitors than pitchers."  He wants that everyday player competitiveness and drive on the mound.  Now, does that mean his roster is 100% full of 2-way players?  No.  But he does whittle down his pitching staff largely from 2-way type guys.  Some could argue that his approach may be flawed, but he's the winningest coach in the history of the program, so it's a tough argument to make.  My kid just started their on Monday so ask me my thoughts a year from now and we can see where I'm at.

Recruiting season - I prefer multi-sport two-way players that compete relentlessly who also display impeccable character at all times while maintaining an outstanding classroom resume

Baseball season - PO, 2-way, 3-some, manages the meth-lab across from the middle school - who cares -  if he can hit 3-fitty and drive in fitty he goin' in the lineup erryday...until he get arrested...then as soon as he is out on bond....back in the lineup...

@RJM posted:

It was a great accomplishment. But, four at bats is statistics in minute numbers. We don’t know what would happen in 100 or 200 at bats.

Yes. 100%

More at bats for pitchers, so their actual level of drive and talent could be determined, rather than just shutting them down because that’s the way it’s always been done.

@LaunchAngle posted:

Recruiting season - I prefer multi-sport two-way players that compete relentlessly who also display impeccable character at all times while maintaining an outstanding classroom resume

Baseball season - PO, 2-way, 3-some, manages the meth-lab across from the middle school - who cares -  if he can hit 3-fitty and drive in fitty he goin' in the lineup erryday...until he get arrested...then as soon as he is out on bond....back in the lineup...

OMG. 😂😂😂

one hundred percent.

I actually laughed out loud at that one @LaunchAngle. Reminds me of all of the coaches telling you that character matters and then they take the kid with a crappy attitude who throws his helmets as long as he can mash...

@DD 2024 posted:

Yes. 100%

More at bats for pitchers, so their actual level of drive and talent could be determined, rather than just shutting them down because that’s the way it’s always been done.

Every so often this subject comes up and someone takes your stance on this issue. It’s almost always someone relatively new to the board. A lot of experienced posters have given really good responses about why it’s this way and why it will continue to be this way. It’s not because that’s the way it’s always been done. I wouldn’t get your hopes up that things will be any different for your son when he gets to a college baseball field. The chances of being a 2 way player are greatest at the D3 level but they are slim even there. D2 chances are less and D1 even less. There are only so many hours in a day and the time commitment involved in playing college baseball is way beyond what most parents can envision.

@adbono posted:

Every so often this subject comes up and someone takes your stance on this issue. It’s almost always someone relatively new to the board. A lot of experienced posters have given really good responses about why it’s this way and why it will continue to be this way. It’s not because that’s the way it’s always been done. I wouldn’t get your hopes up that things will be any different for your son when he gets to a college baseball field. The chances of being a 2 way player are greatest at the D3 level but they are slim even there. D2 chances are less and D1 even less. There are only so many hours in a day and the time commitment involved in playing college baseball is way beyond what most parents can envision.

And 30 years ago if someone said "BA is not the best way to measure hitting" they would have been ridiculed and demeaned and told they were inexperienced and didn't know what they were talking about. Same with ERA.

Times change. The game evolves. Not everyone is able to follow along and that's OK.

@DD 2024 posted:

And 30 years ago if someone said "BA is not the best way to measure hitting" they would have been ridiculed and demeaned and told they were inexperienced and didn't know what they were talking about. Same with ERA.

Times change. The game evolves. Not everyone is able to follow along and that's OK.

Best of luck to you

@adbono posted:

Best of luck to you

Unfortunate that a respectful discussion can't be had.

Really too bad.

@DD 2024 posted:

Unfortunate that a respectful discussion can't be had.

Really too bad.

Agree.

@DD 2024 posted:

Unfortunate that a respectful discussion can't be had.

Really too bad.

Not a problem really. Looks like TPM wants to join in so you can have your discussion with her.

I THINK I'm following things correctly, but I could be off.  But I think I'm with @adbono on this one.  @DD 2024 if you're implying that there aren't SIGNIFICANT barriers to being a 2-way player, please make an argument with some meat on it.  The whole "why not?" approach won't push anything forward.  Time.  Time is why there are so few and why - even 30 years from now - there can't be much more. 

Every kid DOES get his chance to show if he's an elite hitter.  It's called every game and every practice they take part in prior to becoming a PO.  After that, coaches have razor thin margins when it comes to hours in a day and resources.  Sure, there could be dozens.  Possibly hundreds.  But out of what, 40,000ish guys?  Every coach can afford to squander a few dozen elite hitters here and there to focus on the bigger picture.  So they do.

@DD 2024 posted:

Unfortunate that a respectful discussion can't be had.

Really too bad.

My observation is that the respectful discussion ended when you implied that anyone who disagrees with you is unable to keep up with the evolving game.

”Times change. The game evolves. Not everyone is able to follow along and that's OK.”

You basically called the person you were in discussion  with a dinosaur…..not sure how you expect that person to continue to respectfully engage in the discussion when you directed disrespect at him.

Just my casual observation from the sidelines.

As to the topic, I think you fail to recognize the principle of “next best alternative” when it comes to pitchers hitting.  A pitcher has to not just be a little better than the next best alternative at the plate, they have to be far superior than anyone else available to hit or it simply isn’t worth the risk.  So your ace rakes, great.  When he twist his knee legging out a double and misses his next three starts was it worth the bump in output over the next best alternative at the plate?  That’s the math that does not work out for two way guys if their value is primarily on the mound.  High level pitchers are too valuable to risk injury.

@22and25, your observations are correct. Which is why I politely opted out.

@adbono posted:

Not a problem really. Looks like TPM wants to join in so you can have your discussion with her.

Typical.

Regardless, in D1 and D2, in the past several years, I have seen hitters pitch and pitchers hit.  Happens and depends on the program  But it doesnt happen often enough because of possible injury.

FAU has 2, one had TJS, which is what I mentioned above.

Check out Davis Sharp from Clemson.  I am sure there are others out there.

@22and25 posted:

not sure how you expect that person to continue to respectfully engage in the discussion when you directed disrespect at him.

@adbono quotes, from this thread:

That’s an interesting take that very few people would agree with in totality.

Your argument loses credibility after that.

Anyone that has been there will attest to that.

I played JuCo/D1. One of my sons played D3 and the other JuCo/D2. I am quite familiar with the difference in the time commitments at each level.

Your argument does not hold water.

Every so often this subject comes up and someone takes your stance on this issue. It’s almost always someone relatively new to the board.

A lot of experienced posters have given really good responses about why it’s this way and why it will continue to be this way.

@DD 2024 posted:

@adbono quotes, from this thread:

That’s an interesting take that very few people would agree with in totality.

Your argument loses credibility after that.

Anyone that has been there will attest to that.

I played JuCo/D1. One of my sons played D3 and the other JuCo/D2. I am quite familiar with the difference in the time commitments at each level.

Your argument does not hold water.

Every so often this subject comes up and someone takes your stance on this issue. It’s almost always someone relatively new to the board.

A lot of experienced posters have given really good responses about why it’s this way and why it will continue to be this way.

I have a feeling this won't be very helpful for Adbono but I am on his side here.  I would also like to add to TPM that I have looked up Davis Sharp.   Drafted in 13th round and I wish him success but he hit just above the Mendoza line and pitched to a 5.50 ERA.  If he focused on one maybe the stats would be different.  Thinking now that my son might want to get on the bump for Clemson too.

@IAmThatGuy posted:

I have a feeling this won't be very helpful for Adbono but I am on his side here.  I would also like to add to TPM that I have looked up Davis Sharp.   Drafted in 13th round and I wish him success but he hit just above the Mendoza line and pitched to a 5.50 ERA.  If he focused on one maybe the stats would be different.  Thinking now that my son might want to get on the bump for Clemson too.

ThatGuy,  with 2 screen names.

I was making a point that it could be a discussion, there are guys out there, but DD was made to feel, as others have recently, that  their opinion is null and void.

Sharpe was 8th in Tiger history in career strikeouts per nine innings pitched.

You might want to brush up on his history, WiseGuy.

@TPM posted:

ThatGuy,  with 2 screen names.

I was making a point that it could be a discussion, there are guys out there, but DD was made to feel, as others have recently, that  their opinion is null and void.

Sharpe was 8th in Tiger history in career strikeouts per nine innings pitched.

You might want to brush up on his history, WiseGuy.

Hey, the Red's clearly see him as a pitcher.   I hope he kills it.  I  was just making a point about focusing on one position but clearly my opinion is null and void by you.

I think some might be missing a point.  Yes, you will find examples of just about anything out there if you dig long enough.  There are always exceptions to the rule.  There is technically impossible and then effectively impossible.  Effectively, being a 2-way player is impossible.  It's so rare that its smarter to consider it impossible and augment your plans and goals to increase your odds.  I'd compare it to kids going to showcases and being "discovered" at them.  Technically impossible?  No.  Effectively impossible?  Yes.  Me, I'd argue that in the world of college baseball and recruiting, leaving the teeny tiny "technically possible" crack in the door does far more damage than good.  Because far too many players and parents can't help but dwell on it.  You can crap in one hand and put technically possible in other hand and let me know which one fills up first.

Here, watch this.  This realm is riddled with Lloyds.

https://youtu.be/XEhixvM0wKw

@IAmThatGuy posted:

Hey, the Red's clearly see him as a pitcher.   I hope he kills it.  I  was just making a point about focusing on one position but clearly my opinion is null and void by you.

But not by me tho!  Love the Reds scouts. Cutting edge!

@IAmThatGuy posted:

I have a feeling this won't be very helpful for Adbono but I am on his side here.  I would also like to add to TPM that I have looked up Davis Sharp.   Drafted in 13th round and I wish him success but he hit just above the Mendoza line and pitched to a 5.50 ERA.  If he focused on one maybe the stats would be different.  Thinking now that my son might want to get on the bump for Clemson too.

Appreciate the thought but I don’t need any help. If some on here want to be confrontational and then play the victim that’s okay by me. I have had 20 years of experience with that.

I don't understand what is the point of this argument, anyway?  Is it that it is more fun for players if they get to hit when they aren't pitching?  Is it that hitting talent is being hidden/wasted at the higher levels because pitchers are made to be POs?   Is it about college, or about professional baseball?

@adbono posted

If some on here want to be confrontational and then play the victim that’s okay by me. I have had 20 years of experience with that.

Agree. You seem very experienced at being confrontational.

@DD 2024 posted:

Agree. You seem very experienced at being confrontational.

You are half right. I’m very experienced.

@anotherparent posted:

I don't understand what is the point of this argument, anyway?  Is it that it is more fun for players if they get to hit when they aren't pitching?  Is it that hitting talent is being hidden/wasted at the higher levels because pitchers are made to be POs?   Is it about college, or about professional baseball?

It’s about why most pitchers don’t hit from HS/college on, except the 50% in the MLB who do, which is a jarring juxtaposition.

So what besides historical precedent prevents pitchers from hitting, esp between HS and AA, when they start to pick up the bat again?  And wouldn’t it be a huge advantage for those HS, club. college, MiLB teams with pitchers who can swing it?  Why throttle them back?

So far, people have mentioned

- HS teams that want to open more roster spots

- Club teams that want to collect more fees

- College-based teams where players don’t have enough time to practice both

- owners, managers, coaches who want to protect their most important/valuable asset

I can think of a few other reasons: minuscule number of HS/ college pitchers who make it to AA, lack of resources at lower levels to train well in both, NL owners who don’t want to pay DHs, AL owners who don’t want a 100% increase in the size of the market for their DHs.

But all these reasons are structural, not talent-based. Indeed, we see occasional glimpses of pitchers who have big league hitting skills. But we don’t know how many there are.

So I guess what I’m asking is how many American Ohtanis might have been missed in say the last several decades. And why we continue to go down that route when we’ve seen what’s possible.

*******************

FWIW - this isn’t about DDson. He’s happy to PO, or not.  And I don’t care.

I think there are too many good hitters and too many good pitchers who are told to drop one way too early.

Mine went into college as a two way. I didn't anticipate that to last very long and it didn't, he's now a PO. But he was never a great hitter, he was just a very good hitter and I have to question the judgement of a lot of the schools who were recruiting his bat. The best program to offer him was a ranked P5 program and they offered him as a position player only.

Either way, it's at least worth a shot, and I don't see enough kids doing it. Two travel teammates of his were two ways in HS. One was recruited as a PO, he decided to sign out of HS and he's currently a successful two way player in AA. The other is the SS for a ranked program who saw 15 innings on the mound this year.

It's incredibly hard, but there are some incredible athletes out there too. Obviously when it's time to hang one up, it's time. But I don't think the opportunity is presented enough.

@DD 2024 posted:

It’s about why most pitchers don’t hit from HS/college on, except the 50% in the MLB who do, which is a jarring juxtaposition.

So what besides historical precedent prevents pitchers from hitting, esp between HS and AA, when they start to pick up the bat again?  And wouldn’t it be a huge advantage for those HS, club. college, MiLB teams with pitchers who can swing it?  Why throttle them back?

So far, people have mentioned

- HS teams that want to open more roster spots

- Club teams that want to collect more fees

- College-based teams where players don’t have enough time to practice both

- owners, managers, coaches who want to protect their most important/valuable asset

I can think of a few other reasons: minuscule number of HS/ college pitchers who make it to AA, lack of resources at lower levels to train well in both, NL owners who don’t want to pay DHs, AL owners who don’t want a 100% increase in the size of the market for their DHs.

But all these reasons are structural, not talent-based. Indeed, we see occasional glimpses of pitchers who have big league hitting skills. But we don’t know how many there are.

So I guess what I’m asking is how many American Ohtanis might have been missed in say the last several decades. And why we continue to go downtown that route when we’ve seen what’s possible.

*******************

FWIW - this isn’t about DDson. He’s happy to PO, or not.  And I don’t care.

I think it's mostly about time.  Training to be the best is time consuming.  Doing both takes time from both.  A few are able to do it.  Most aren't.  If you are really serious about pitching, you have a training schedule for every single day, plus lifting.  Same for hitting.  So if you do both...you better have a lot of time.  Brett Baty was on our team.  He pitches 88-90, and he can pitch.  I guarantee you, he spent almost zero time training as a pitcher and he will also never pitch a ball in the majors.  He did however spend hours and hours on hitting.  You get pushed one way or another by coaches and very few can do both and still be elite.  Most will lessen their effectiveness at both by trying to do both.  If you don't have to devote a ton of time to one of them to still be good in hs, that's great but again, that rarely translates beyond hs.  And you are looking at ONE guy, you is an outlier.  It's like Michael Phelps....there aren't that many.  We haven't missed a ton of guys in my opinion.

At some point in the not too distant future we will see pitchers first (not only) on rosters in the MLB  who will also serve as positional role players /hitters as everyone/everything  evolves to accomplish greater success with fewer resources.  Life will find a way...and the Jurassic Rays will do it first...

@LaunchAngle posted:

At some point in the not too distant future we will see pitchers first (not only) on rosters in the MLB  who will also serve as positional role players /hitters as everyone/everything  evolves to accomplish greater success with fewer resources.  Life will find a way...and the Jurassic Rays will do it first...

Hope that it will be better than when my son was drafted as a starter on a NL team and after fungo hitting lessons in AA, still couldnt hit the ball, despite being a great hitter in HS.

@baseballhs posted:

I think it's mostly about time.  Training to be the best is time consuming.  Doing both takes time from both.  A few are able to do it.  Most aren't.  If you are really serious about pitching, you have a training schedule for every single day, plus lifting.  Same for hitting.  So if you do both...you better have a lot of time.  Brett Baty was on our team.  He pitches 88-90, and he can pitch.  I guarantee you, he spent almost zero time training as a pitcher and he will also never pitch a ball in the majors.  He did however spend hours and hours on hitting.  You get pushed one way or another by coaches and very few can do both and still be elite.  Most will lessen their effectiveness at both by trying to do both.  If you don't have to devote a ton of time to one of them to still be good in hs, that's great but again, that rarely translates beyond hs.  And you are looking at ONE guy, you is an outlier.  It's like Michael Phelps....there aren't that many.  We haven't missed a ton of guys in my opinion.

Thanks.

Agree that it’s time is a factor but time use is dictated by structure. Imagine that D1 didn’t exist and all prospects went straight into the minor leagues. Would that produce more two way players? I would think yes.

@DD 2024 I am not super familiar with the NPB league. Are there a lot more two-way players in Japan than in the US?

@LaunchAngle posted:

At some point in the not too distant future we will see pitchers first (not only) on rosters in the MLB  who will also serve as positional role players /hitters as everyone/everything  evolves to accomplish greater success with fewer resources.  Life will find a way...and the Jurassic Rays will do it first...

I think this is possible that’s where MLB is headed, though eliminating the DH in the NL will make it less likely. My son had a HS teammate who was two way in college and being used both ways through AA. He’s a LHP and an OF with  elite speed. Obviously an unusual player. I had been thinking  they could put him in to face a couple lefties, then move to OF.

@DD 2024 posted:

Thanks.

Agree that it’s time is a factor but time use is dictated by structure. Imagine that D1 didn’t exist and all prospects went straight into the minor leagues. Would that produce more two way players? I would think yes.

I wasn't even talking about college. I was talking in hs.  Self imposed training...not the required.  Even in our hs, that has baseball as a class every single day, most guys would say the majority of their training is outside of class and school practice.  A local pitching coach (who was just hired as the pitching coach at a TX D1) would meet with about 8 guys twice a week at 6:30 (before school) for their pitching drills.  Other days they had assignments on their own.  If you aren't dictating your own training beyond what is required, I would venture to say it will be hard to play competitively in college, let alone getting to the minors.  I truly don't believe that there are that many guys that will be the top of the game doing both.  Some outliers, yes.  How does a pitcher/hitter compete with a guy like Bregman, who outside of practice, was in the cages at midnight or 1am every night?  They had to give him his own key so they wouldn't have to go let him in.  Or Leiter, who is not only practicing and perfecting his pitches, but studying film of other guys to try to improve.  The time isn't there for most.  I am not saying some couldn't be competitive, but to be the best possible guy for the spot both ways...unlikely.