Skip to main content

@PitchingFan posted:

I just don't think you will see very few who will do it very often and when I say very few I'm talking less than 1% of all D1 college pitchers who will get significant innings and at bats.

So true. What most HS dads, players, observers who have never had a son play, or have played college baseball have no idea how freaking difficult and competitive it is. Given competition, workouts, practices, academics, injuries, (girls) and other distractions just getting on the field is a challenge.

This thread continues to go nowhere fast.  If I am soaking up what many are spilling, I get the sense that people's belief that we're on the verge of a 2-way player sea change is supported by very little hard data and largely sourced by the gut and a desire to see it happen.

I see pitching reaching for higher and higher velos AND getting them.  I see hitting reaching for more and more long balls AND getting them.  These are known trends that no one denies.  So for any sort of 2-way revolution to happen, these kids will basically need to throw 100+ and hit 30+ HRs consistently, right?  Yes, I am exaggerating some here, but the trajectory points in this direction.  Sure, I think most would agree that seeing more 2-ways would be cool.  But reality and data argue that we'll continue to see a few aberrations here and there and that's it.

This is a thread we can time capsule for 3-4 years then circle back to.  Then whomever ends up being right, can do their "I told you so" dances.

I’m seeing two-way players in HS and high level club ball. Seeing it at combines and camps. I’m seeing players describe themselves this way in their Instagram bios. I’m seeing long-time club coaches allowing it. Parents talking about and supporting it.

I attribute it to Ohtani, showing what’s possible. He’s captured some imaginations.

@PitchingFan posted:

My son is officially a two way player but never got an at bat last year.  He was in the ondeck circle three times but crazy circumstances kept him from it.  2 double plays and a pitcher getting hurt and had to go to bullpen and get ready real quickly.  He is the only switch hitter on the roster.  He still takes BP including at Omaha and still hits some.  He worked 3 hours a night on it his freshman year but last year decided being a better pitcher was what was going to get him on the field so he put the extra time in pitching.  Hit enough to be ready.  We have one who actually did it but only pitched 5 innings all season.  I just don't think you will see very few who will do it very often and when I say very few I'm talking less than 1% of all D1 college pitchers who will get significant innings and at bats.

I wouldn’t consider a position player who pitches a handful of innings a pitcher. He’s an emergency pitcher who likely pitches mop up, save the staff innings.

I wouldn’t consider a pitcher who gets a handful of at bats a position player. Chances are he only pinch hit a handful of times. I believe the former is more likely than the latter.

Like you stated, when your son realized pitching would get him on the field it became the focus.

@DD 2024 posted:

I’m seeing two-way players in HS and high level club ball. Seeing it at combines and camps. I’m seeing players describe themselves this way in their Instagram bios. I’m seeing long-time club coaches allowing it. Parents talking about and supporting it.

I attribute it to Ohtani, showing what’s possible. He’s captured some imaginations.

@DD 2024  Your first paragraph has me scratching my head.  You state all that as if its some new trend.  My 2021 started playing travel ball at age 7 in the summers.  Played fall ball about every other year.  Just got down playing high school ball in the spring for the last 4 years, summer legion ball for 3 of those 4 years and travel ball last summer.  In the last 11ish years my son has played baseball (almost always at the highest levels available in our area and region), everything you've said has been the case.  So my response to what you said would be "of course you're seeing that.  Because that's how it's been for a long time."  Everything you said is as easily explained today as it was 10+ years ago when Ohtani was still in high school.

"I’m seeing two-way players in HS and high level club ball." - coaches want to win and don't have 25+-man rosters.  They also don't coach much at all.  So they grab the best guy for the job at the time in order to win.

"Seeing it at combines and camps." - My son basically stopped pitching once he got to HS to preserve his arm, but last February he added the pitching portion when he did a PBR showcase.  It was the winter/early spring of his junior year and he wanted to cast as wide a net a possible.  To come off as versatile as possible to increase his chances of getting offers.

"I’m seeing players describe themselves this way in their Instagram bios." - again, recruiting.  It's called marketing. And boasting.  Kids being kids.

"I’m seeing long-time club coaches allowing it." - same as I said above - coaches want to win.  They're not there to sort out who will be 2-way guys and who will be pitchers in the future.

"Parents talking about and supporting it." - this might the worst one of the bunch.  It's simply parents being parents.  Of course Johnny can do everything!  He always was the best!

Ohtani is no doubt capturing the imaginations of many, but unless he's somehow been able to inspire kids retroactively to back before he was even born, I can't imagine him getting credit for things are not at all new/different.

@DanJ posted:

@DD 2024  Your first paragraph has me scratching my head.  You state all that as if its some new trend.  My 2021 started playing travel ball at age 7 in the summers.  Played fall ball about every other year.  Just got down playing high school ball in the spring for the last 4 years, summer legion ball for 3 of those 4 years and travel ball last summer.  In the last 11ish years my son has played baseball (almost always at the highest levels available in our area and region), everything you've said has been the case.  So my response to what you said would be "of course you're seeing that.  Because that's how it's been for a long time."  Everything you said is as easily explained today as it was 10+ years ago when Ohtani was still in high school.

"I’m seeing two-way players in HS and high level club ball." - coaches want to win and don't have 25+-man rosters.  They also don't coach much at all.  So they grab the best guy for the job at the time in order to win.

"Seeing it at combines and camps." - My son basically stopped pitching once he got to HS to preserve his arm, but last February he added the pitching portion when he did a PBR showcase.  It was the winter/early spring of his junior year and he wanted to cast as wide a net a possible.  To come off as versatile as possible to increase his chances of getting offers.

"I’m seeing players describe themselves this way in their Instagram bios." - again, recruiting.  It's called marketing. And boasting.  Kids being kids.

"I’m seeing long-time club coaches allowing it." - same as I said above - coaches want to win.  They're not there to sort out who will be 2-way guys and who will be pitchers in the future.

"Parents talking about and supporting it." - this might the worst one of the bunch.  It's simply parents being parents.  Of course Johnny can do everything!  He always was the best!

Ohtani is no doubt capturing the imaginations of many, but unless he's somehow been able to inspire kids retroactively to back before he was even born, I can't imagine him getting credit for things are not at all new/different.

Thanks.

I am going to stop responding to this thread.

Because I'm being told my opinions, my observations, what I know to be true is invalid. Time and time again. From posters who make assumptions about me, my background and my involvement in high-level baseball and D1 sports based on their biases, their beliefs, what serves them.

No discussion to be had here.

It’s pretty simply. The proof is in the pudding. Outside of Ohtani, who else can you name?  So 1 out of 700 players?  .0014%. I realize you may be talking specifically about college guys, but you used him as an example. The last guy I can remember that everyone thought had the ability to do both at professional level is Brendan McKay out of Louisville. I just looked up his stats. He is in AA and has a total of 22 ABs this year at a .091 average. He has had 10 ABs at MLB level with 2 hits. Am this guy was EXTREMELY talented in college. There will most likely always be 1 or 2 guys at the highest levels that do this, but it will not be the norm.

@younggun posted:

It’s pretty simply. The proof is in the pudding. Outside of Ohtani, who else can you name?  So 1 out of 700 players?  .0014%. I realize you may be talking specifically about college guys, but you used him as an example. The last guy I can remember that everyone thought had the ability to do both at professional level is Brendan McKay out of Louisville. I just looked up his stats. He is in AA and has a total of 22 ABs this year at a .091 average. He has had 10 ABs at MLB level with 2 hits. Am this guy was EXTREMELY talented in college. There will most likely always be 1 or 2 guys at the highest levels that do this, but it will not be the norm.

100% correct. This thread devolved into facts vs feelings 2 pages ago.

@DD 2024  No, DD, don't go pouting on us and throwing your hands up in the air.  We're all adults here.  Your opinions, observations and things you "know to be true," are being subjected to fair scrutiny.  Which you should absolutely want.  Any opinion/conclusion/etc in ANY topic that is worthwhile, needs to be subject to questioning and scrutiny.  The strongest opinions and conclusions always stand up when challenged.  Lesser ones don't hold up quite as well.  To each their own, but me, I want all my opinions to stand up well when they're challenged by others.  Otherwise, how can I feel good about where I've landed?  I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinions, but I would ask that anyone who disagrees, steps up and makes a strong case against them.  Hell, I am not omnipotent and I'm only 47.  I'm nowhere near knowing it all nor will I ever be.  But I surely want to get closer if possible.  So bring some new data to me.  Something with some substance.  You won't hurt my feelings if you erode any of my opinions or current conclusions.  If anything, I'll thank you for bringing new info/data to my attention and broadening my perspective.  What I "know" is constantly evolving and I'm glad for that.

We all have a choice to make.  Do we want to be right or do we want to be as knowledgeable as possible?

Last edited by DanJ

There are 299 D1 baseball programs. At 35 players per roster (actually more currently) there are 10,465 D1 players. There would have to be 105 two way D1 players for the number to even be 1%. I wouldn’t call 1% a trend. I’m not sure I would call 5% (525) a trend.

When I started this thread I was trying to get a feel for how many pitchers only there actually are in high school. It’s very common for the best pitcher to be the team’s best athlete, best hitter, best arm and therefore also the best pitcher. Being a two way in high school is very normal.

My son’s 17u team had two two ways. One wanted to play both ways in college. He was recruited as a two way. He never touched a bat in a college game until junior year when pitching didn’t work out. The other two way was a willing innings eater who enjoyed pitching but wanted to be a position player in college. When he started drawing attention for his pitching he requested not to pitch anymore unless needed to eat innings in local scout league games.

Almost all of the position players pitched for their high school teams.

@younggun posted:

It’s pretty simply. The proof is in the pudding. Outside of Ohtani, who else can you name?  So 1 out of 700 players?  .0014%. I realize you may be talking specifically about college guys, but you used him as an example. The last guy I can remember that everyone thought had the ability to do both at professional level is Brendan McKay out of Louisville. I just looked up his stats. He is in AA and has a total of 22 ABs this year at a .091 average. He has had 10 ABs at MLB level with 2 hits. Am this guy was EXTREMELY talented in college. There will most likely always be 1 or 2 guys at the highest levels that do this, but it will not be the norm.

Well we attempted to stop the world for a virus with similar numbers soooo your sayin there is a chance.

There are 3 unofficial 2 way guys at Tennessee but really none.  Son (LHP and 1st/DH), starting CF (LHP), and a true IF/OF guy who is RHP.  CF got 5 innings all in mop up, son got 41 innings but no official AB's, and other kid got 7 AB's and no innings.

I don't know of any in the SEC that are true 2 way guys.  There are a few like our CF who got a few mop ups and a few pitchers who got a couple of AB's.  There are definitely some that could but in today's culture why would you is most coach's philosophy.  I think if son got legitimate chance (really big spot in a game) to hit it would be in a unique position where they need someone who can hit it out or deep and a player is up who doesn't have that proven power.  Son's answer when I asked last fall why he was not working on it like he did his freshman year is the answer for most in competitive teams in today's culture.  "Dad, we have 21 guys here who do nothing but swing bats.  Why would I spend 2-3 hours a night to try and take one of their spots when I need to be spending that time making sure I keep my spot."  I think that sums it up in today's culture in college baseball.  Throughout the year the coach kept saying just don't forget how to swing it just in case.  Even at Omaha, coach said you never know.  Take a few swings and a few bunts because he is one of the better bunters on the team and still hits it deep from both sides.  Most guys are so concerned with keeping a position that they don't have time to compete for two positions.

@DanJ posted:

@DD 2024  Your first paragraph has me scratching my head.  You state all that as if its some new trend.  My 2021 started playing travel ball at age 7 in the summers.  Played fall ball about every other year.  Just got down playing high school ball in the spring for the last 4 years, summer legion ball for 3 of those 4 years and travel ball last summer.  In the last 11ish years my son has played baseball (almost always at the highest levels available in our area and region), everything you've said has been the case.  So my response to what you said would be "of course you're seeing that.  Because that's how it's been for a long time."  Everything you said is as easily explained today as it was 10+ years ago when Ohtani was still in high school.

"I’m seeing two-way players in HS and high level club ball." - coaches want to win and don't have 25+-man rosters.  They also don't coach much at all.  So they grab the best guy for the job at the time in order to win.

"Seeing it at combines and camps." - My son basically stopped pitching once he got to HS to preserve his arm, but last February he added the pitching portion when he did a PBR showcase.  It was the winter/early spring of his junior year and he wanted to cast as wide a net a possible.  To come off as versatile as possible to increase his chances of getting offers.

"I’m seeing players describe themselves this way in their Instagram bios." - again, recruiting.  It's called marketing. And boasting.  Kids being kids.

"I’m seeing long-time club coaches allowing it." - same as I said above - coaches want to win.  They're not there to sort out who will be 2-way guys and who will be pitchers in the future.

"Parents talking about and supporting it." - this might the worst one of the bunch.  It's simply parents being parents.  Of course Johnny can do everything!  He always was the best!

Ohtani is no doubt capturing the imaginations of many, but unless he's somehow been able to inspire kids retroactively to back before he was even born, I can't imagine him getting credit for things are not at all new/different.

Good to see 13u,14u and 15u are still the same as they have been for the last 15 or more years. I would assume that over 50% of your staff is a 2-way at this point in time, probably higher.

You know how you and your buddies laugh at 9u dads who think they know everything....yeah give that some thought.

@DD 2024 posted:

I’m seeing two-way players in HS and high level club ball. Seeing it at combines and camps. I’m seeing players describe themselves this way in their Instagram bios. I’m seeing long-time club coaches allowing it. Parents talking about and supporting it.

I attribute it to Ohtani, showing what’s possible. He’s captured some imaginations.

Ohtani doesn't take BP...says it doesn't help him. Sometimes you just got to let freaks be freaks.

This kind of fun, now as soon as we get a definition on "boatloads" it will be a party!!

Hey of any of you guys heard about he 2-way from way back, Babe something or other. I cant believe they didn't create more of him.

Last edited by old_school

Not arguing that Ohtani isn’t a freak but I have seen him take BP. 2022 and I were very fortunate to have field passes for BP at Fenway before a Redsox vs Angels game.  One thing was very different about his BP bat than any other player we watched hit though.  The sweet spot was absolutely destroyed in one spot only slightly larger than a baseball while the rest of the bat looked brand new.

Last edited by 22and25
@old_school posted:

Ohtani doesn't take BP...says it doesn't help him. Sometimes you just got to let freaks be freaks.

This kind of fun, now as soon as we get a definition on "boatloads" it will be a party!!

Hey of any of you guys heard about he 2-way from way back, Babe something or other. I cant believe they didn't create more of him.

old_school is the perfect name for you 

glad to see someone own their shortcomings

@22and25 posted:

No arguing that Ohtani isn’t a freak but I have seen him take BP. 2022 and I were very fortunate to have field passes for BP at Fenway before a Redsox vs Angels game.  One thing was very different about his BP bat than any other player we watched hit though.  The sweet spot was absolutely destroyed in one spot only slightly larger than a baseball while the rest of the bat looked brand new.

that is good stuff, i remember chase utley had a bat like that back in the day as well.

This maybe interesting.

The Japan HS Baseball player arrives at the baseball field 6 am. they practice for two hours and then attend class until 3 PM. Then practice to 6 PM. Home by train.

Every HS player dreams for his team to play in the Spring and August tournament in Osaka [Koshein]. 40 million watch on TV.  Story of the Ohtani family.

https://mainichi.jp/english/ar.../p2a/00m/0sp/014000c

Our Area Code players for 17 years played the National team selected from Koshein.

Bob

https://english.kyodonews.net/...ki-hits-160-kph.html

@Consultant posted:

This maybe interesting.

The Japan HS Baseball player arrives at the baseball field 6 am. they practice for two hours and then attend class until 3 PM. Then practice to 6 PM. Home by train.

Every HS player dreams for his team to play in the Spring and August tournament in Osaka [Koshein]. 40 million watch on TV.  Story of the Ohtani family.

https://mainichi.jp/english/ar.../p2a/00m/0sp/014000c

Our Area Code players for 17 years played the National team selected from Koshein.

Bob

https://english.kyodonews.net/...ki-hits-160-kph.html

How did the AC players fare against the National team?

@DD 2024 posted:

Thanks.

I am going to stop responding to this thread.

Because I'm being told my opinions, my observations, what I know to be true is invalid. Time and time again. From posters who make assumptions about me, my background and my involvement in high-level baseball and D1 sports based on their biases, their beliefs, what serves them.

No discussion to be had here.

I don't think anyone is trying to say what you see is invalid.  They are just saying they all saw it too at your son's age and in travel ball and hs....you don't see it much in college or pro.  I think you believe that it wasn't this way for everyone else...many are just further along in their journey.  Freshman and sophomore years my son showcased as a two way.  Partly because its boring to just go as a PO and partly to show he was athletic and could do other things.  He threw 87 across the IF and they ranked him as the #3 3B in the state.  He would NEVER have had an opportunity to play D1 as a 3rd baseman. Masyn Winn was a great 2020  two way player in hs.  Top 10 in the nation easy.  Could pitch up to 98mph.  Crushed the ball.  Great hands, incredible arm.  He was drafted last year out of hs.  He will never pitch in the minors or majors.  They are however reporting that he is one of the best arms out there including all major league SS.  They really are unicorns.  Enjoy being a 2 way with any coach that lets him do it, for as long as he can.  Just be realistic that it is a rare occurrence that it continues into. college or beyond.

This article hit close to home (this thread).  A 2026 from KC just committed to a bigger D1 program in our area - Nebraska.

https://omaha.com/sports/huske...rce=home-top-story-1

"NU’s willingness to allow Beau to be a two-way player clinched the deal, the elder Peterson said."  I'm sorry, but I about spit my drink out when I read this line.  Can this dad actually put any stock into his 14 year old 8th grade kid being a 2-way player for a D1 program in the spring of 2027 or later?  Quite possibly, because he also said this...

“I didn’t think he was going to tell me they were ready to offer him a full ride to come now,” Peterson said.

#facepalm

This Nebraska story is right up there with …

Of course I’ll respect you in the morning.

and

The check is in the mail.

For any father of a 13u player who commits and believes he’s guaranteed being two way player in five years, I have some beachfront swamp land for sale.

Last edited by RJM
@DanJ posted:

This article hit close to home (this thread).  A 2026 from KC just committed to a bigger D1 program in our area - Nebraska.

https://omaha.com/sports/huske...rce=home-top-story-1

"NU’s willingness to allow Beau to be a two-way player clinched the deal, the elder Peterson said."  I'm sorry, but I about spit my drink out when I read this line.  Can this dad actually put any stock into his 14 year old 8th grade kid being a 2-way player for a D1 program in the spring of 2027 or later?  Quite possibly, because he also said this...

“I didn’t think he was going to tell me they were ready to offer him a full ride to come now,” Peterson said.

#facepalm

Sorry, I know you are trying to make a point but I don't see any issues.  

@PitchingFan posted:

Full ride in baseball.  That is few and far between.  Almost the Unicorn.

I am only aware of one guy that was on a full ride athletic scholarship as a baseball player - and he was a teammate of mine. But here is the kicker - he was a two sport recruit as a QB/LHP & CF and he was actually on a football scholarship. After one year of playing both sports all the coaches got together and decided that he would only be a LHP going forward but Emory Bellard agreed to let him keep the full ride football scholarship for the next 3 years. That player was Mark Thurmond who became an All American and went on to pitch 8 years in the big leagues - including starting the first and last games of the 1984 WS for the San Diego Padres.

Add Reply

Post
.
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×