Hip Turn

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
What is the value of 'hip turn' in the swing?

Some profess a belief that hip turn should take place before the swing. I strongly disagree but am open to what others think.

The hips initiate the swing, creating a stretch between the lower body and upper body. IMO you have to have a sequence of movements from the ground up to initiate and have the most powerful and efficient swing. In that sequence, the hips begin to rotate before the hands start to the ball.

quote:

In my view and experience, hip turn after the swing is initiated multiplies the speed of the bat through the zone.

Before we can get into this more in depth, I think we all should know what you consider to be "swing initiation." This definition can vary depending on who you talk to.

quote:

I look at the batters who supposedly turn their hips before the swing, only to see arm swingers with short weak follow throughs.

IMO, you are very wrong here. I look at batters whose hips begin to rotate before their hands move to the ball, and I say pretty much every high level Major League hitter.

beemax

I toatally agree with your comments on the importance of proper hip(pelvic) action. I see a lot of online analysis that generally ignores the contribution/need of proper pelvic action.

The following comments in reference to the Guerrero clip is how I view the hip rotation topic. This was posted on Ray's site several months back. Early pelvic unloading, prior to toe touch, is sometimes difficult to detect because of tight coupled movement over a small range of motion. The front leg action, internal and external rotation, is a good indicator of what the pelvic is doing - they are directed linked with the front leg being reactive to pelvic action.



My perception of swing dynamics between frames 5 and 29 – all of this is what sets up the desired downstream sequencing. These frames,as a set, can be viewed as part of the “initial conditions” that have a major influence on limiting chaos downstream in the kinetic chain which is unfurled via ballistic action.

This clip of Vladimir Guerrero illustrates these dynamics:

Pelvic loading with in to back hip with knee flexion
Riding out on back leg
Pelvic unloading in to toe touch
Scapula loading overlapped with pelvic unload
Intensified VL





Pelvic loading/coil (f5 –f19) and its maintenance to f25 when unload starts. The preceding is synced within riding back leg while maintaining torso verticality into toe touch(f5-f29) [ all the preceding is likewise done as his body settles(hip and knee flexion included) into a stronger vertically load position]


Pelvic unloading/uncoiling in to toe touch (f25 –f29) [ commonly called “rotation into toe touch” ] : starting at f25(tracked via external rotation of front leg) with simultaneous completion of scapula loading at f29 or toe touch[ this unloading of pelvic against scapula loading is what fpdad and I as well as others refer to as the critical “overlap” which assist in producing separation between the pelvic and upper torso - energizing the torso via the “serape effect”]




jimo

There seems to be a misunderstanding of 'front hip opening' in the stride and weight shift as compared to 'hip turn' in the swing.

Front hip opens in the stride/weight shift.

Hip turn takes place during the swing.

When the hips turn, there is a turning of the entire upper body.

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/media/player/mp_tpl.j...mv&type=v_free&_mp=1

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
There seems to be a misunderstanding of 'front hip opening' in the stride and weight shift as compared to 'hip turn' in the swing.

IMO you are right when it comes to a misunderstanding. Once the front hip begins to open, hip turn is initiated. IMO the only way to have your front hip open without a hip turn is to have a double-jointed hip. Once the hip opens, hip turn has begun. There is no difference, in my view.

quote:

Front hip opens in the stride/weight shift.

I somewhat agree with you here. IMO the best hitters can separate their stride from their weight shift. I would say the front hip opens in the stride and leave it at that.

quote:

Hip turn takes place during the swing.

While a vague statement, I don't think many will disagree here.

quote:

When the hips turn, there is a turning of the entire upper body.

And this is because the hips initiate this turning. Again another very vague statement, IMO.

The front hip can open with no swing.

In a perfect world, the hip opens in aligning the swing to the ball. Outside pitch, less open. Inside pitch, more open.

The hip turn on the other hand propels the bat in the swing.

On a purely time motion basis, it takes longer for the bat to travel than it does for the hips to turn. I doubt very much that the hands could catch up with the turning hips.

The proponents of the 'hips first' always produce a swing where the hands enter the zone while the bat is at a 90 degree angle to contact (bat drag).

Looking at an 'old fashioned' swing (like Griffey Jr.), you would see the bat head thrust into the zone along with the hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The front hip can open with no swing.

But hip turn can't start without the front hip opening

quote:

The hip turn on the other hand propels the bat in the swing.

Another vague statement, can you clarify what exactly you mean here? Are you saying hip turn initiates the swing now? Or that the hips turn after the hands? Not sure what you mean here.

quote:

On a purely time motion basis, it takes longer for the bat to travel than it does for the hips to turn. I doubt very much that the hands could catch up with the turning hips.

What does this mean? When do you start timing the bat? When do you stop timing the bat? Same with the hips.

The hips have completed their turn while the bat is still going to finish the swing. Time motion basis really means nothing to me here.

quote:

The proponents of the 'hips first' always produce a swing where the hands enter the zone while the bat is at a 90 degree angle to contact (bat drag).

This guy always was a 'hips first' proponent:





What was wrong with his bat angle?

quote:

Looking at an 'old fashioned' swing (like Griffey Jr.), you would see the bat head thrust into the zone along with the hands.

Really?

There actually can be a swing without the front hip opening in the stride or weight shift.

Stating that 'hip turn' propels the bat in the swing is clear and concise.

If you do not understand the time motion aspects of the two movements, you have no understanding of bat propulsion. This statement is also clear and to the point.

The cached photos are not visible on my connection.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
There actually can be a swing without the front hip opening in the stride or weight shift.

I agree. I never said you couldn't. I said simply that you cannot start hip turn without your front hip opening.

quote:

Stating that 'hip turn' propels the bat in the swing is clear and concise.

Okay.

quote:

If you do not understand the time motion aspects of the two movements, you have no understanding of bat propulsion. This statement is also clear and to the point.

I never said I had an understanding of "bat propulsion." I wanted you to explain it to me and to anyone else who doesn't understand along with "time motion." None of my hitting instructors at any level has ever used those terms. Neither did Ted Williams. So I apologize for not understanding. Maybe we are trying to say the same thing, but just in a different way...

quote:

The cached photos are not visible on my connection.

Hopefully they are now.

Looking at Ted's swing, it appears that the bat is moving into the zone and towards the ball as soon as he initiates his swing. This is followed by hip turn and then contact and follow through.

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/media/player/mp_tpl.j...mv&type=v_free&_mp=1

IMO the hips initiate his swing. I won't change my view on this so I guess we will agree to disagree...

What about the pictures I posted?

The first is a pose so it has no real value in the discusion.

The other two being stills are indeterminate. The hands and hips could assume a similar position on an inside pitch with no swing.

If you get an opportunity for some bp, give it a try. Comparison is a far better barometer.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The first is a pose so it has no real value in the discusion.

The other two being stills are indeterminate. The hands and hips could assume a similar position on an inside pitch with no swing.

Would you like me to show you the next frame of the "pose" swing of Williams or the Griffey swing to show that they actually were swinging?

Or why don't you simply do a frame by frame on the Williams video you posted to see his "bat drag."

I'm not that computer savy to do a frame by frame.

If you have that capability, compare Williams' hip opening when taking a pitch and his hip turn when swinging. You should see the difference between hip opening and hip turn.

Here is a f-by-f clip of Williams. Maybe this will help with the discussion.



jimo

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
I'm not that computer savy to do a frame by frame.

That's okay. I will provide the frame for you.

I keep trying to get it up here but I am having trouble...

Quincy, simply pause the HOF video a little after halfway when it does the side view of Williams' swing. As he begins to swing you can see the 90 degree angle you talked about as such a bad thing.

quote:

If you have that capability, compare Williams' hip opening when taking a pitch and his hip turn when swinging. You should see the difference between hip opening and hip turn.

I never said there wasn't a difference between hip opening and hip turn. What's your point?

All I ever said was that the hips cannot turn without the front hip opening.

Thanks for the clip jimo.

Great fxf. Look at the bat head being put in motion before the hip starts moving. F-9 the swing starts. F-11 the hip opens. F-13 the hips turn.

So getting back to the initial post, what is the value of 'hip turn' in your view.

Quincy,

this is the first time I see what you meant by hip turning goes after the hands. You are talking about the hands firing, not the hands getting through the zone. I think this is why people have been giving you so much beef.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Great fxf. Look at the bat head being put in motion before the hip starts moving. F-9 the swing starts. F-11 the hip opens. F-13 the hips turn.

So getting back to the initial post, what is the value of 'hip turn' in your view.

I really think we are thinking the same way, we just use different words.

IMO the hips initiate the swing when you have a high level, MLB swing.

I believe that your understanding is that once the bathead is in motion, the swing has started. Am I right in assuming that?

IMO once the hands have started moving towards the ball, not merely loading back, the swing has begun. In the vast majority of high level swings and with Mr. Williams, the front hip initiates this move. I see it on the video clip. You obviously see differently.

The hips are the most important key in the swing, IMO. Some hitters may focus on different things to help them be successful, but if the hips do not lead the hands, you will not be as successful as you can be. I know because I did it, and I worked like heck to try and change it. It creates proper rotational mechanics when done right. You call it hip turn, I call it rotation.

Again, rotation is initiated by the front hip opening, and in the best swings this happens even before the front foot comes down. This allows the stretch to be created that brings all the energy and power with it.

Not sure if you don't want to just start another thread on this, but what do you have to say about the bat angle stuff you were talking about in terms of 'hips first' hitters. I showed you pics of two of the best with 'bag drag,' as you called it. What is wrong with hands entering the zone with the bat at a 90 degree (or so) angle to contact?

beemax

I can't agree more with your comments. It is readilly detected in clips of many elite ML swing.

quote:

The hips are the most important key in the swing, IMO

The only part I would add to the topic is that the hips(pelvic)are cocked,loaded, in setting up the unload(hip rotation). This cocking action is very suble in many ML swings. I use a one-legged drill with youngsters to illustrate how front leg movement is directly linked to pelvic action(loading-unloading). The front leg action(internal-external rotation) seen in the Guerrero clip above is integral to an effective load and unload of the pelvic.


My question is why is "pelvic action" such an overlooked ingredient in the overall swing process.

jimo

I'm glad that you see it, Catch43.

Once the arms fire into the swing, their job is done in my view. If they ride the fire and add hip turn, the ball will be rocketing off the bat.

The fire could get the bat moving at about 50 mph. The added hip turn could almost double the bat speed.

Jimo,

The importance of the hips has been taught less and less because poor hitters have written books and become instructors in an area where they lack understanding.

If you look at the supposed god of hitting, Charlie Lau, he endorsed a swing that was predominantly stride, arms and hands.

quote:

Originally posted by jimo:
The only part I would add to the topic is that the hips(pelvic)are cocked,loaded, in setting up the unload(hip rotation). This cocking action is very suble in many ML swings.

I agree. Good stuff here.

quote:

My question is why is "pelvic action" such an overlooked ingredient in the overall swing process.

Not sure. I know Ted was a big advocate of it, and ever since I read that, I was too.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quincy:


[QUOTE]Front hip opens in the stride/weight shift.

I somewhat agree with you here. IMO the best hitters can separate their stride from their weight shift. I would say the front hip opens in the stride and leave it at that.

beemax,

Can you please elaborate a little on this statement? The part about seperating the stride from the weight shift.

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quincy:


[QUOTE]Front hip opens in the stride/weight shift.

I somewhat agree with you here. IMO the best hitters can separate their stride from their weight shift. I would say the front hip opens in the stride and leave it at that.

beemax,

Can you please elaborate a little on this statement? The part about seperating the stride from the weight shift.

I agree with beemax here and believe the weight shift is, or should be, seperate from the stride. IMO, the weight shift is a result of the uncoiling of the hips, firing of the hands, and punch of the back leg in the direction of the hit.

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
beemax,

Can you please elaborate a little on this statement? The part about seperating the stride from the weight shift.

Sure, no problem.

IMO the bulk of proper weight shift occurs during rotation and not the stride. The more a hitter can stay away from shifting their weight during the stride, the more power they will conserve until proper rotation occurs.

Weight does begin to shift during the stride, but in high level swings the majority of weight is still on the backside at toe touch. Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place. That total weight shift is usually accompanied by the back foot coming off the ground, or at least rotating to the tip of the toes.

IMO if there is a focus by the hitter to separate the stride from weight shift, they will sit on their back leg longer. If they can sit on their back leg long enough to let their rotation work properly, they will put themselves in the most powerful position in their swing. IMO, of course

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

I agree with beemax here and believe the weight shift is, or should be, seperate from the stride. IMO,
the weight shift is a result of the uncoiling of the hips,
firing of the hands,
and punch of the back leg
in the direction of the hit.

This is what I have referred to as the 'sling shot' swing. Apparently, this is also thought of as 'bottom up'.

From the outset, the theory is counter-productive. Isn't it easier and more effective to swing 'top down' as compared to 'lifting' into the swing?

Isn't there more potential energy established in the top down load ? With more potential energy existing, less kinetic energy will be required to accomplish the task.

Hip turn should be the last active phase of the swing.

quote:

This is what I have referred to as the 'sling shot' swing. Apparently, this is also thought of as 'bottom up'.

From the outset, the theory is counter-productive. Isn't it easier and more effective to swing 'top down' as compared to 'lifting' into the swing?

Isn't there more potential energy established in the top down load ? With more potential energy existing, less kinetic energy will be required to accomplish the task.

Hip turn should be the last active phase of the swing.

IMO, the snap of the wrists and the punch of the back knee or leg is done at the same time and is the last active phase of the swing.

As far as top down load is concerned...No! The bigger muscles will pull the smaller muscles through.

beemax,

Thanks for you response. That's what I though you meant and fwiw, I agree. I just wanted to be sure I was on the same page.

One more question. You said "Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place". Am I correct that you don't mean to say as if proper rotation happens and then weight shift, but rather the weight shift is ocurring simultaneous to proper rotation and should end or reach "total weight shift" just prior to contact?

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
As far as top down load is concerned...No! The bigger muscles will pull the smaller muscles through.

I feel like I walked into a Professor Irwin Corey convention.

If the bigger muscles are pulling the bat and the bat is raised, are the bigger muscles not pulling the bat downward or 'top down'?

If the stretch is established in the load, is there then no need to stretch further away from contact?

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
beemax,

Thanks for you response. That's what I though you meant and fwiw, I agree. I just wanted to be sure I was on the same page.

One more question. You said "Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place". Am I correct that you don't mean to say as if proper rotation happens and then weight shift, but rather the weight shift is ocurring simultaneous to proper rotation and should end or reach "total weight shift" just prior to contact?

Right, proper rotation creates proper weight shift, as they happen together. IMO "total weight shift" should happen at contact.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
beemax,

Thanks for you response. That's what I though you meant and fwiw, I agree. I just wanted to be sure I was on the same page.

One more question. You said "Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place". Am I correct that you don't mean to say as if proper rotation happens and then weight shift, but rather the weight shift is ocurring simultaneous to proper rotation and should end or reach "total weight shift" just prior to contact?

Right, proper rotation creates proper weight shift, as they happen together. IMO "total weight shift" should happen at contact.

Thanks. That's what i thought you were saying but didn't want to assume too much.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
As far as top down load is concerned...No! The bigger muscles will pull the smaller muscles through.

I feel like I walked into a Professor Irwin Corey convention.

If the bigger muscles are pulling the bat and the bat is raised, are the bigger muscles not pulling the bat downward or 'top down'?

If the stretch is established in the load, is there then no need to stretch further away from contact?

Okay! I'll back up. We are probably talking about two different things. I agree, front arm should be nearly straight and core stretched as far as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
beemax,

Thanks for you response. That's what I though you meant and fwiw, I agree. I just wanted to be sure I was on the same page.

One more question. You said "Only after proper rotation does a total weight shift take place". Am I correct that you don't mean to say as if proper rotation happens and then weight shift, but rather the weight shift is ocurring simultaneous to proper rotation and should end or reach "total weight shift" just prior to contact?

Right, proper rotation creates proper weight shift, as they happen together. IMO "total weight shift" should happen at contact.

IMO, it would be hard to say where it actually occurs, but I would say it continues through contact and ends at full extension. I would say it doesn't matter as long as it is before contact and your rotation can carry it through extension.

HOW ABOUT THIS?

I see the progression as, hip turn, weight shift, then ball contact.....

How about:

I have never noticed the way that the lead hip recoiling creates a recoil in the core which when unleashed must generate some significant pop! Do you believe that a player needs a high leg kick to achieve this?

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
I have never noticed the way that the lead hip recoiling creates a recoil in the core which when unleashed must generate some significant pop! Do you believe that a player needs a high leg kick to achieve this?

Albert Pujols Granted,Pujols doesn't have as much coil as some but he does coil a little.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!

I just wanted to say what a great education we can get here when everyone with different opinions respects each other and explains their position! This is awesome. IMO, this is what can happen if we put egos away and knock off the negative **** and silly riddles, etc.

Sorry, for distracting the topic, but I wanted to express my appreciation for everyone's contribution! I, for one, have learned a great deal.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
HOW ABOUT THIS?

I love these frame by frame pics,imo,basic fundamentals of the mechanics are being shown.

Good clips from Coach and Blue there. Jay Bruce really shows what getting a "stretch" looks like. Watch his front hip begin to open as his hands stay back. He does this really well.

The Frank Robinson clip is from Deemax.........

quote:

Do you believe that a player needs a high leg kick to achieve this?

Mel Ott.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

Do you believe that a player needs a high leg kick to achieve this?

Mel Ott.....

I think the DELAYING of the weight shift is the key. Many different hitters do it many different ways. Great clips of some of the different ways. I wouldn't say Mel Ott was coiling his hips with his leg kick, but he was turning his upper body back while the leg was in the air.

Great thread!!!

Here is a clip of Ted Williams. Pelvic loading(cocking) is indicated by down and in front shoulder(starting with frame 1) and internally rotating front leg/foot actions (frames 4,5 and
6). A good example of a subtle pelvic load - small ranges of pelvic and associated movements.





jimo

One very overlooked point, IMO......

The hands and arms contribute alot to weight shift.....

Weight shift is much more than just the lower half....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
One very overlooked point, IMO......

The hands and arms contribute alot to weight shift.....

Weight shift is much more than just the lower half....

I would agree with that to some degree,it seems to me that the momentum of the swing should cause the weight shift?

Swinging a bat teaches you that weight shift is a conscious effort......

Many amateur hitters swing the bat and don't shift their weight.....

Momentum and weight shift are too entirely different studies....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Swinging a bat teaches you that weight shift is a conscious effort......

Many amateur hitters swing the bat and don't shift their weight.....

Momentum and weight shift are too entirely different studies....

I know my son does not think about weight transfer and I have seen stills of him with his back foot completely off the ground.I believe his mechanics dictate it.

For some it might be a thought process but for others,I don't think it is.

Anyone see the slo mo clips during home run derby? They were perfect illustartions of how the hips stop turning precisely AT contact. The slow mo clips are so precise that we can be specific about the exact sequence of the swing.

Hips turn to contact. They are done turning at or near contact.

quote:

Originally posted by LevelPath19:
Anyone see the slo mo clips during home run derby? They were perfect illustartions of how the hips stop turning precisely AT contact. The slow mo clips are so precise that we can be specific about the exact sequence of the swing.

Hips turn to contact. They are done turning at or near contact.

Did you also notice that Josh Hamilton's arm action is the same as Barry Bonds and Ted Williams?

Home Run Derby:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Home Run Derby:

Coach,

What are you showing with the two other clips? Hip sequence?

You just can't do this if you're rotating like heck....

You don't stay connected to the shoulders and do this, either...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Sometimes, slo-mo clips are deceiving and don't tell the entire story.....And, sometimes we look at the wrong things....

If concentrating on hip rotation is such a big deal, then, why do the hips stop rotating at, and in some cases before, ball contact?

It's like focusing on connection with the hands and arms to the shoulders....The shoulders don't turn the bat....The hands and arms do...

The shoulders and the hips are too slow to generate power by rotating....So, why connect to the shoulders?



In all these clips, the hips and the shoulders stop turning at, or before, ball contact...

So, just how meaningful is the rotation of the hips and shoulders?

Another thing I notice is, posture isn't a significant contributor to setting swing plane....

And, rotation is not what is pulling the back foot off the ground....

Bluedog,

Not sure I'm understanding all of what you are saying here. I believe the hips and shoulders create the stretch. The "tip and rip" help keep the stretch as long as possible and keeps the weight on the back leg as long as possible. I have found that the tip towards SS for a lefty (such as myself and my Son) works best for me and my Son, but not for everyone. Some, do and feel better with the bat behind the head but still tipped to Pitcher. I break the swing into 3 parts in the beginning to teach the hitter hip action (ala Epstein) and then add tip and rip and knee action. From that point on, the swing is one constant flow. Load is push bottom hand back, tip bat forward and coil hips back while going to front toe. I believe Ted Williams' foot action is best case scenario, but I'm not sure everyone can repeat that and isn't necessary to be successful. Pujols does it no stride and foot doesn't leave the ground and Ortiz strides toe open.

As far as connection, I believe if you disconnect too soon or don't connect at all, you will lose leverage and stretch.

As far as Posture, I believe much of that is determined by body type and comfort, not sure it effects the swing much.

I agree that rotation is not what pulls the foot off the ground. IMO, it is weight transfer and momentum.

Powertoallfields, I'd like to say that those posted videos are a part of a Socratic Method response and the for the viewer to interpret. However, we all know I'm not that smart. I put the video of Hamilton up because of the comment comparing his swing to Bonds. I thought that the readers might want a view of those swings from the HR Derby.

Actually, I could take several aspects of what I believe in regarding the swing and mention them per those videos. I could mention thoughts on "the box," connection, the hips, ... However, typically whenever I participate, all heck breaks loose and to be honest, I just don't want that to happen. If I find some time today, I'll pm some things to you and you can view the video for those things.

Take care!

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Powertoallfields, I'd like to say that those posted videos are a part of a Socratic Method response and the for the viewer to interpret. However, we all know I'm not that smart. I put the video of Hamilton up because of the comment comparing his swing to Bonds. I thought that the readers might want a view of those swings from the HR Derby.

Actually, I could take several aspects of what I believe in regarding the swing and mention them per those videos. I could mention thoughts on "the box," connection, the hips, ... However, typically whenever I participate, all heck breaks loose and to be honest, I just don't want that to happen. If I find some time today, I'll pm some things to you and you can view the video for those things.

Take care!

Sounds good! I'd like to ask you a couple of questions on them anyway. Thanks!

It looks like Hamilton is making contact with his arms almost fully extended. Don't the good hitters let the ball get deep?

quote:

Originally posted by Catch43:
It looks like Hamilton is making contact with his arms almost fully extended. Don't the good hitters let the ball get deep?

Not if you are pulling the ball.

quote:

I believe the hips and shoulders create the stretch.

Power, I don't see the shoulders creating stretch...

I do see the hands loading against the front hip creating stretch....

So, I believe the front hip and the hands create stretch...

quote:

Originally posted by Catch43:
It looks like Hamilton is making contact with his arms almost fully extended. Don't the good hitters let the ball get deep?

It is a homerun derby,not a game.


BUT,some good hitters hit out front,BONDS and others let it get deep,PUJOLS.

I don't think hitting out front should be the objective because it makes timing more crucial.But that is just 1 mans opinion. I also think he is hitting THROUGH extension,not at the end of it.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

I believe the hips and shoulders create the stretch.

Power, I don't see the shoulders creating stretch...

I do see the hands loading against the front hip creating stretch....

So, I believe the front hip and the hands create stretch...

I think I see what you're saying. When I push my bottom hand back to get my front arm straight, I feel the stretch in my front shoulder and lat. When I tip the bat, my back elbow lifts and stretches my back shoulder and starts to stretch my core. As I stride opening my front knee and bathead is pulled back by the top hand toward the Catcher I feel stretch in my hips and butt and it further stretches my core, shoulders and front lat. As my front heel lands and back heel raises and knee tips in (Epstein's #2 position) further opening the hips against the hands, the stretch is complete. All that is needed now is to keep the wrists cocked while the hands, arms, and on some pitches the posture seeks the ball location or contact point.

The closest thing I can say to explaining what the hands are doing during bat tip and front knee cocking, is that you are trying to break the bat at a point between your two hands. As you go to the ball, you are trying to wring the water out of the handle of the bat.

How far off from what you believe happens is this?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

As my front heel lands and back heel raises and knee tips in (Epstein's #2 position) further opening the hips against the hands, the stretch is complete.

Power, there is a last instant stretch that, IMO, has nothing to do with the shoulders....

It's getting the hands as far away from the front hip as possible while the front hip has already opened in the stride, then swing the bat....It happens instantaneously.....It is X-factor cusp.....

IOW, don't get that last bit of stretch till you're gonna swing the bat....

Then, let the hands go....At the same time, let the weight shift.....

Forget connecting to the shoulders and forget rotation....That stuff will only slow your swing.....And, take away your adjustability....

I agree with the x factor or cusp, but what body parts are being stretched in your opinion?

quote:

Forget connecting to the shoulders and forget rotation....That stuff will only slow your swing.....And, take away your adjustability....

I guess I don't really understand what you're meaning of connecting is. What, in your opinion, constitutes connection? John Cohen puts a rolled towel under the front arm pit. When that towel falls out is what I would consider the point of disconnection. The start of connection, IMO, is when the back elbow tucks and is best when tucked completely against the body. Do you not believe leverage is important in the swing? I feel like during my swing that when or if I lose leverage, I lose speed and power.

As far as rotation goes, I think you have to teach the difference in going back to front and turning your hips, so they get the feel of the core stretch. I believe you can have stretch without rotation, but not as much and it can be done with the front foot closed and by pushing off the inside of the back foot for the weight shift, but it makes you vulnerable to good offspeed pitches and you have to use your hands much more. One of Ichiro's swings uses this technique to a great extent.

Like you say, once I get the student to feel the difference, we don't have to "think" about rotation anymore, it just happens. I just find it easier to teach from the bottom up. I would say most good hitters already know how to rotate, so you don't need to teach it to them, but most younger hitters and more High School hitters than you might think, don't understand it or use it correctly. For me, getting the front arm straight and the hips open is instant gratification for the student and they are hooked from that moment on.

Also, I never talk about the shoulders when teaching. I touch the parts I want them to feel the stretch in and explain that they want to have maximum stretch when they start to swing at the ball and keep it as long as possible if fooled on the speed of a pitch.

I'm not sure the swing I have now is what you and Richard teach, but when he showed the "snap the pole off" drill, I started figuring out what I now do and the time I have to wait on a pitch now vs. what I had before is at least 10' more. You may think I am crazy, but I actually got the cusp part from watching Ted Williams' video and it showed him fly fishing. It was like "UREKA"!!! I actually cried! Scary stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

Like you say, once I get the student to feel the difference, we don't have to "think" about rotation anymore, it just happens. I just find it easier to teach from the bottom up. I would say most good hitters already know how to rotate, so you don't need to teach it to them, but most younger hitters and more High School hitters than you might think, don't understand it or use it correctly. For me, getting the front arm straight and the hips open is instant gratification for the student and they are hooked from that moment on.

Very nicely stated,it is about the teaching.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

Like you say, once I get the student to feel the difference, we don't have to "think" about rotation anymore, it just happens. I just find it easier to teach from the bottom up. I would say most good hitters already know how to rotate, so you don't need to teach it to them, but most younger hitters and more High School hitters than you might think, don't understand it or use it correctly. For me, getting the front arm straight and the hips open is instant gratification for the student and they are hooked from that moment on.

Very nicely stated,it is about the teaching.

T,

I added more above, I can't stop! LOL! I am currently teaching 12 ten year old girls in 3 one hour sessions in one night. I have had 4 sessions with them and I love every minute of it, I'm ate up with it! The progress from lesson one to now is unbelievable. I never would have believed it from girls that age, maybe they don't start being bossy until they get married, LOL.

I assure you,it starts MUCH earlier than that.I have a 14 year old girl as proof.

When the instructions is done right and the students are willing,the progress goes quick.I have seen it first hand as well from boys and girls.

I worked with 1, 10 year old boy for about 30 minutes at practice 1 day with a few of the Epstein drills and he went to the cages for bp with the team and was crushing the ball.His dad couldn't believe that was coming from his son.Didn't last,no commitment on their part.

Blue,it was a kid that has no commitment to success.He doesn't want to work.It was a total of 30 minutes.


There are a whole bunch of success stories out there using methods like Power uses,I have seen it and so has he.

I agree with you,you do need to separate bp from live hitting and learn how to hit live pitching.But imo,you need to learn mechanics somewhere and that isn't in the game,unless you are a special athlete.(mechanics are learned in bp and hitting is leaned in the games)

For the record,I didn't work on any connection drills.

Expalin to me how the heck you can separate the front hip from the back.

How do you know he was being grooved easy to hit pitches?

This coach was throwing harder than anything the kid has seen in games and he was mixing it up.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
http://www.apa.org/releases/retention.html

This may help someone learn why success in BP far too often leads to failure in games....

The best Coach I know of believes players learn the most by failing......He wants his players going up against the best pitching as often as possible....

quote:

"The problem is that if people confuse the current sense of ease with learning, they'll prefer training conditions over real-life conditions."

bluedog,

I agree with the concept, but don't you think the player has to start with some base of knowledge of mechanics. I agree that, if willing to put in the work, you will find what your body is capable of doing and how to make what it can do work for you in game situations, but IMO you still need to know the basics and may need some tweaking along the way.

quote:

but don't you think the player has to start with some base of knowledge of mechanics.

No....I'll even go one further than that....

The player doesn't wanna know the mechanics....

They just wanna be able to hit.....They don't care how, they just wanna be able to do it, that's all they care about......

Heck, MLB hitters don't even know what it is they're doing...But, they can do it, though....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

but don't you think the player has to start with some base of knowledge of mechanics.

No....I'll even go one further than that....

The player doesn't wanna know the mechanics....

They just wanna be able to hit.....They don't care how, they just wanna be able to do it, that's all they care about......

Heck, MLB hitters don't even know what it is they're doing...But, they can do it, though....

So, you are saying just put them in the box and keep throwing BP and they will learn to hit or put them in the box against the best Pitcher possible in their age group in game situations until they figure it out on their own?

I am saying, they learn by failing, not by succeeding....

You must fail to succeed.....

Don't make it easy...If you do, they will not learn......

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
I am saying, they learn by failing, not by succeeding....

You must fail to succeed.....

Don't make it easy...If you do, they will not learn......

I agree,only if they know WHY they failed.

quote:

I agree,only if they know WHY they failed.

No...They don't care why....

Just show me how, is what they want.......Not why...

That would depend on why,now wouldn't it.

Some drop their hands,in the swing,not during load,some don't use their hips,at all(hand hitters)Others back out of the box,others are spinners.Some pull their heads.Some don't care.

For some it is purely mentall.

I think you get the picture.


I agreed with you,failure when understood can lead to succes.BUT,succes can bread succes as well.Confidence goes a long way.

We were getting somewhere then you go and change your post.

I didn't say they cared why,but they need to know why,or atleast know how to correct the why.

Yes, I did change my post..

I will tell you why.....'Cause, you are really into the mechanics aspect of swinging a bat..I'm not...

The truth is, hitters should drop their hands and arms while swinging the bat....

Concentrating on and correcting what you think are flaws is not what hitting is about....

A good example is the hips....There is a front hip and a back hip....They each have an individal function....And, they are different functions....

For some of the better hitters,it is crucial for them to understand why they are failing and what it is they do to succeed.I have heard many of the best say they go and watch film of their good at bats and compare them to their bad at bats to see what they need to change to succeed.


Sometimes it is something very simple that makes the difference.BUT,the good ones care,if they are failing,when things are going well,they don't care as much.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Yes, I did change my post..

I will tell you why.....'Cause, you are really into the mechanics aspect of swinging a bat..

The truth is, hitters should drop the hands and arms while swinging the bat....

That depends on where and how.

I'm not as much into the mechanical as you might think.I do believe in muscle memory but when you step into the box,you are there to hit,PERIOD,how is irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
I am saying, they learn by failing, not by succeeding....

You must fail to succeed.....

Don't make it easy...If you do, they will not learn......

I do believe you get better by failing, but if you never catch a fish are you still going to keep fishing?

I also think you remember things better or longer at least, that you figured out on your own. But again, if you don't have some successes along the way most people will give up before they have given it a fair chance, even if they love to play the game. At some point, some people should give up and as a conscientious instructor, we should let them instead of draining them dry.

quote:

.......if you never catch a fish are you still going to keep fishing?

If my intent is to catch a fish, yes I will........

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

.......if you never catch a fish are you still going to keep fishing?

If my intent is to catch a fish, yes I will........

You know....that could be the thing that separates the great hitters from the good hitters.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Great fxf. Look at the bat head being put in motion before the hip starts moving. F-9 the swing starts. F-11 the hip opens. F-13 the hips turn.

So getting back to the initial post, what is the value of 'hip turn' in your view.

Quincy,

I came back to this thread because I remembered the frame by frame of Williams. You say the front hip opens at frame 11, I say it starts to open at frame 7. You say the hip turns at frame 13, I say it starts to turn between frame 8 and 10. The push/resistance with the back big toe starts at frame 8 or sooner (since I can't see in his shoe, I can't tell exactly when) but, I would guess frame 7 so that it coincides with the front hip opening. You are correct that the bat is put in motion early. It is put in motion forward (away from his body) at frame 1 at the same time his big toe on his front foot raises his heel off the ground and initiates his negative move with the hips. The bat starts rearward at frame 7 which is the start of his stride. The bathead never goes to the ball in this clip and he can stop before he does swing during any frame of this clip. IMO, the "swing" is from frame 13 to contact.

If you look at the film of Williams you provided, it shows a check swing and you will see what I'm talking about.

The clip provided by jimo is the most efficient and effective way to get to the "swing" ever. I see no way to make it more efficient or effective and that is why I try to teach this to all of my students. However, I do realize some won't or can't get this action down. I then go back to the drawing board and find the best way for that individual to get to the swing.

Quincy has it right and if he were face to face with you he would show you correctly. Good hitters fight hip turn! Called resistence.

Im with Q. Frame 11. Not frame 7

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:
Quincy has it right and if he were face to face with you he would show you correctly. Good hitters fight hip turn! Called resistence.

Im with Q. Frame 11. Not frame 7

You're just not looking close enough.

The Babe told fellow players to:
- stuff a towel in your left armpit
- shift to your right leg
- then shift to your left leg
- if you drop the towel, you can't hit

That's it.

Of course, the towel bit just keeps your hands and arms back as long as possible (sound familiar to all you pitchers?).

When teaching people hitting and pitching, I get them to make a few swings (or pitches) and have them try to hold the bat (or ball) back. They can't hold it back, and their swing (or throw) is actually faster.

Babe Ruth gives hitting tips in this short film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2rD1Im9D14