There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO....... 
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Tell it to the Babe.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......
What's the alternative?
What would you have people focus on and why?
If I get BD's drift... I know that when I focus too much in my golf swing on turning the hips, I end up spinning them out so early that I "lose" my hands/arms behind my body, resulting in either a classic "outside/in over-the-top pull/hook or block/slice" OR worse, the dreaded shank.
Yes, the hips do lead the way, but there's probably a point of diminishing (damaging) returns?
Is that what you're alluding to, BD?
Yes, the hips do lead the way, but there's probably a point of diminishing (damaging) returns?
Is that what you're alluding to, BD?
The hips turn as a consequence of something else, IMO...... 
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
The hips turn as a consequence of something else, IMO......
And what is that?
Bluedog, do you then argue that the hips aren't beginning to open as that front heel hits?
On another board the discussion on hips and the inside low pitch was very interesting. ie. sit (very minute but present), hips open in the same movement as the hitter adjust tilt to react to ball location. Something to think about. I'll look around for some video.
Forgot to add, do you think that the hips respond to the hitter moving the middle?
Good Video of a MLB Hitter "Moving the Middle."
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=10&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
On another board the discussion on hips and the inside low pitch was very interesting. ie. sit (very minute but present), hips open in the same movement as the hitter adjust tilt to react to ball location. Something to think about. I'll look around for some video.
Forgot to add, do you think that the hips respond to the hitter moving the middle?
Good Video of a MLB Hitter "Moving the Middle."
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=10&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
quote:Bluedog, do you then argue that the hips aren't beginning to open as that front heel hits?
Coach, I believe in some hitters they do and in some they don't....
Some hitters rotate into footplant and some don't, IMO....
quote:.....do you think that the hips respond to the hitter moving the middle?
I do indeed....
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
Bluedog, do you then argue that the hips aren't beginning to open as that front heel hits?
The hips start to open long before heel plant.
Uhhhh, not in all hitters...... 
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=11&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=11&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
quote:Do you think that the middle moves before the hands?
If it doesn't, you've got problems......
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
Bluedog, do you then argue that the hips aren't beginning to open as that front heel hits?
The hips start to open long before heel plant.
Yes, as per the video I linked to on Siggy's site. I made this statement (Question) in this manner to let Blue Dog discuss it. FYI, I was trying to get away from the impression that I try to force my views on others with regards to hitting. Rather, I'd let you, Blue Dog, etc. make your case. Thus the aforementioned statement about not posting on this site much in the hitting forum recently.
Blue Dog, nice use of Siggy's site to make your point!
Take care,
I would like to add one more thing to this discussion. ie. the use of video. Chameleon made the point on another site about the use of video both in slow motion and in real time. It was a valid point. I find that I'm spending a huge amount of time on my RVP Program (you can use several programs so you don't have to have the software I have.) watching MLB Hitters lately. I did a session with some of my Dads in our feeder program this past few weeks where we looked at what they were taught as players/kids and what the realities are. (Now, I know we can take these "realities" and even argue them.) What transpired was that many had not watched video ever. EVER! In all of our quest to understand what we are teaching, I think that Chameleon's point is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL in that journey! JMHO!
(Kind of like what I wanted Blue Dog to discuss and what he referenced in the video link he provided.)
(Kind of like what I wanted Blue Dog to discuss and what he referenced in the video link he provided.)
Here's another perspective of Manny, stopping at the first frame at which he drops his heel.
Hips turning already or not?
Hips turning already or not?
quote:Originally posted by Sandman:
Hips turning already or not?
Looks to me like Manny's hips (just barely) start to turn a couple of frames before the front heel plants.
That's before the heel plants, but not well before in the case of Manny.
Believe it's safe to say that the vast majority of MLB hitters do rotate into foot plant.
A good swing takes under 5 frames.
Looks like Manny is turning his hips 2-3 frames before heel plant
Thepainguy says "that is not well before".
It's only 40-60% of the entire swing duration.
Looks like Manny is turning his hips 2-3 frames before heel plant
Thepainguy says "that is not well before".
It's only 40-60% of the entire swing duration.
Compare these......Hips open in different time frames...
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac03.mpeg
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac03.mpeg
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg
Based on my observations hips generally begin to open at about toe touch...
How can any conclusions be drawn as to when the hips open in relation to other parts of the swing/body when the clips only show the upper half of their bodies??? 
Sandman, my comment was a general observation based on my studies in case your wondering. 
Actually NYdad, I was referring to BlueDog even citing those 2 clips. 
OK...just felt the need to clarify
Sorry, I should've quoted him to make it clearer.
quote:How can any conclusions be drawn as to when the hips open in relation to other parts of the swing/body when the clips only show the upper half of their bodies???
Much more than upper half in those clips.....And, those clips make my point, which is, the hips don't matter......It ain't about the hips....!!!!!!
Here it is again, Sandman!!!
quote:There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......
But you also said:
"Different time frames" in relation to what?
On second thought, never mind. I only posted the other 2 Manny clips in rebuttal to the one you referenced of Manny in which it looked like he didn't turn his hips as much into foot plant.
But I just don't see this debate going anywhere. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
Enjoy!
quote:Compare these......Hips open in different time frames...
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac03.mpeg
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg
"Different time frames" in relation to what?
On second thought, never mind. I only posted the other 2 Manny clips in rebuttal to the one you referenced of Manny in which it looked like he didn't turn his hips as much into foot plant.
But I just don't see this debate going anywhere. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
Enjoy!
quote:"Different time frames" in relation to what?
Sandman, I have been reading your posts for a long time and I know you put alot of emphasis on the hips.....It's not about opening the hips in a certain timeframe......It's about how the hips open...What makes them open???....Doesn't matter when!!!!
That's funny, cuz I hardly ever discuss the hips w/ my son, nor do I really recall spending much time writing about how to [consciously] move them (specifically, as opposed to observations like "hips stopped turning" or "shoulders turning more/faster than hips", etc.) over the past 5 years??? 
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......
Hmmm... Recall that (a) I only commented that the hips do lead the way (notice I didn't suggest any conscious sequential movement thoughts on the part of a hitter to make that happen tho?) and (b) I posted clips of Manny opening his hips into foot plant after you posted a clip of him that did not show much of this.
Interestingly though...
TODAY:
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog, February 20, 2007:
It's not about opening the hips in a certain timeframe.
AND SOME HISTORY"
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog, March 28, 2004:
I believe the hips should open early.....They actually should begin opening during the stride.....Did I say this???..Yes, I did.....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog, August 21, 2004:
"You need a swing that's short in the back, and long in the front."
Wrong!!!........Hitters need EFFICIENT swings.......Bat qUickness and proper technique make a swing EFFICIENT......The hips should move the legs........Not the other way around.....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog, March 06, 2006:
His hips rotate into foot plant as all MLB hitters do......The top half never closes...That would require counter-rotation and that doesn't happen.....MLB hitters load the shoulder muscles by pinching them....There's no torque involved and the so-called torque position simply doesn't exist in the MLB swing.....
The hip rotation forces the front foot to the ground as the hips begin the rotation.....It's rotate into foot plant, not throw the foot down, then rotate.....
Torque in the MLB swing is a fallacy and does not exist.....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog, May 16, 2006:
MLB hitters rotate the hips into foot plant....The hips are rotating before the front foot comes down.....
The brain makes the decision to swing, or not to swing....If the decision is not to swing, the shoulders don't rotate.....The hands and arms connect to the shoulders and follow their lead.....
It's about hips and shoulders, not arms and hands....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog, May 18, 2006:
NYdad, hips opening is the beginning of rotation.....
Weight shift momentum first, then rotation....
Weight shift momentum is chaos.......The chaos is controlled and turned into rotation just before footplant......
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog, May 19, 2006:
A hitter doesn't have time to commit to a swing after foot plant.....Foot plant happens to late to begin the swing....And, the hips begin rotating before foot plant....If they didn't, the swing would be way late....
I thought it didn't matter when the hips opened???
Sandman, those posts were when I believed the center to be other than what I now know to be the center.....
Your problem is, you don't have a clue where the center is.....As a result, you cannot understand balance in the swing.....
Your problem is, you don't have a clue where the center is.....As a result, you cannot understand balance in the swing.....
I have posted many times about re-thinking my hitting beliefs.....You, obviously, have been sleeping for awhile........Rip Van Winkle style.. 
If you understand this it is all you will ever need to understand.
THe natural front foot position to block weight is open 45 degree...that is where the body land it to stop weight over a bent knee and to give to an fro balance.
Williams said the most important part of hitting was to coil the hips as you stride. I think he considered that a teach or a major point of emphasis.
Now if you coil your hips as you stride and do what is natural at block then you WILL rotate into foot plant. The actual rotate into foot plant is not the teach....the hip coil during the stride IS a major teach.
The next teach is how to get the shoulder to come back to the ball. Certain loading patterns do this as a side effect. The BHUT pattern of Williams causes some wrist bind with hip coil and is simply a hand trigger that allows the hips to coil but the shoulders to dely their loading until the front foot is about 4-5 inches from foot plant. SO the shoulder load as the hips unload. That is plain to see in some form in all great hitters
When the barrel starts out of plane and then transitions back to plane ; the up and over of the rear elbow works in time with the lead knee flaring stretching the rubber band middle that is not a power generator but a storage device when forces are applied above and below it.
From a frontal view the point of the shoulder is moving IN to the ball as the point of the hips is rotating out( due to the uncoil to get the front foot in position).
This widens the hip/ shoulder torque angle AS the COM is moved forward. Lead arm extension occurs due to spatial separation and not any king of linear lead arm push back. The shoulders slight LATE counter rotation( coming back to the ball not trying to stay on the ball) coupled with the lead leg opening lengthen the lead arm at precisely the right time (DURING THE STRIDE) as a side effect is spatial torque development
AT GO EPSTEIN is right. THe shoulders TILT to seek the plane AND release the barrel on the same move. Early attemmpts to line up the rear shoulder on the ball raises the lead shoulder and prematurely lets stretch out of the rubber band. So GO is two things
1, the sudden relative change of the elbow positions
2, the lateral shoulder tilt .....and the lead elbow moving from a low position to jutting up and the rear elbow going from UP to quickly slotting. This move unlocks the closed shoulders like pulling a trigger and the elbow change torques the handle blurring the barrel in one frame behind the hitter.
SO the coiling of the hips and BHUT move are X angle stretchers. The stride is simply to move the COG to the new balance center although lead arm extension does occur from the spatial separation developed during this period
The stretch in the middle is created and stored during the shift from forces applied above and below the middle during the movement of the middle. THe movement forward of the middle is essential to be balanced in a forward position at GO to stop the reverse pivot
The release of the stretch happens one way and one way only...tilt.
You cannot block and TILT without a strong need for the the lead leg goes into full extension making the hips turn to completion just as the shoulders tilt and the elbow change relative position
SO it is not the hips. It is not the shoulders. Every swing is a combination of rotation and weight shift, torque formation and sudden release. To teach this you need to see the whole move
THe natural front foot position to block weight is open 45 degree...that is where the body land it to stop weight over a bent knee and to give to an fro balance.
Williams said the most important part of hitting was to coil the hips as you stride. I think he considered that a teach or a major point of emphasis.
Now if you coil your hips as you stride and do what is natural at block then you WILL rotate into foot plant. The actual rotate into foot plant is not the teach....the hip coil during the stride IS a major teach.
The next teach is how to get the shoulder to come back to the ball. Certain loading patterns do this as a side effect. The BHUT pattern of Williams causes some wrist bind with hip coil and is simply a hand trigger that allows the hips to coil but the shoulders to dely their loading until the front foot is about 4-5 inches from foot plant. SO the shoulder load as the hips unload. That is plain to see in some form in all great hitters
When the barrel starts out of plane and then transitions back to plane ; the up and over of the rear elbow works in time with the lead knee flaring stretching the rubber band middle that is not a power generator but a storage device when forces are applied above and below it.
From a frontal view the point of the shoulder is moving IN to the ball as the point of the hips is rotating out( due to the uncoil to get the front foot in position).
This widens the hip/ shoulder torque angle AS the COM is moved forward. Lead arm extension occurs due to spatial separation and not any king of linear lead arm push back. The shoulders slight LATE counter rotation( coming back to the ball not trying to stay on the ball) coupled with the lead leg opening lengthen the lead arm at precisely the right time (DURING THE STRIDE) as a side effect is spatial torque development
AT GO EPSTEIN is right. THe shoulders TILT to seek the plane AND release the barrel on the same move. Early attemmpts to line up the rear shoulder on the ball raises the lead shoulder and prematurely lets stretch out of the rubber band. So GO is two things
1, the sudden relative change of the elbow positions
2, the lateral shoulder tilt .....and the lead elbow moving from a low position to jutting up and the rear elbow going from UP to quickly slotting. This move unlocks the closed shoulders like pulling a trigger and the elbow change torques the handle blurring the barrel in one frame behind the hitter.
SO the coiling of the hips and BHUT move are X angle stretchers. The stride is simply to move the COG to the new balance center although lead arm extension does occur from the spatial separation developed during this period
The stretch in the middle is created and stored during the shift from forces applied above and below the middle during the movement of the middle. THe movement forward of the middle is essential to be balanced in a forward position at GO to stop the reverse pivot
The release of the stretch happens one way and one way only...tilt.
You cannot block and TILT without a strong need for the the lead leg goes into full extension making the hips turn to completion just as the shoulders tilt and the elbow change relative position
SO it is not the hips. It is not the shoulders. Every swing is a combination of rotation and weight shift, torque formation and sudden release. To teach this you need to see the whole move
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Sandman, those posts were when I believed the center to be other than what I now know to be the center.....
Your problem is, you don't have a clue where the center is.....As a result, you cannot understand balance in the swing.....
And exactly WHAT did I say in my posts above that makes you think that? Be specific.
All I originally said was "Yes, the hips do lead the way, but there's probably a point of diminishing (damaging) returns?" It was an observation, not a cue.
Then I simply offered 2 clips of Manny showing that his hips were opening into foot plant when YOU tried to make everyone think that he didn't do that (w/ the one clip you posted). I didn't offer any suggestions as to HOW he was doing that though; I just brought into question the clip you posted.
Stop being so darned presumptuous, read what people SAY and stop putting words into people's mouths!!!
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has grown tired of all the self-proclaimed 'net gurus standing on their perches and yelling down at everyone about how they're the only ones who have it all figured out. Then, a month or year later, they've discovered something different in the swing - a new revelation - and now THAT's the all-important point that the rest of the world needs enlightening on.
I feel that I've become pretty comfortable/accurate at using video to prove my observational points - points about WHAT I see occurring in the swing and when. What I'm not yet comfortable with is my ability to determine/teach HOW to make this happen. Do my hitters get better throughout the season? Usually. Do I have anything to do w/ it? Hopefully. But are they swinging exactly like mini-MLB'ers? Heck no!
And I would challenge you and the other 'net gurus on that too. Post some before/after video clips (and the after can't be a year or 2 down the line, when a hitter might've seen other instructors, grown more physically/confident, or just plain figured it out on his own). No, something in the timeframe of a few weeks to a couple months. Tell us (better yet, SHOW us video of you teaching/showing him HOW to hit) the exact cues/drills/instructions you used w/ him and SHOW us the improvement. Prove to us that you have had actual success in changing a youth hitter's mechanics for the better (not just improving their results, which could be attributed to many things).
Until then, you're just another over-self-assured bag of internet hot air.
quote:I feel that I've become pretty comfortable/accurate at using video to prove my observational points - points about WHAT I see occurring in the swing and when.
Then you don't need to learn anymore.......
May I suggest you discuss hitting with others who have learned it all like you have....I'm a waste of your time 'cause I'm still learning!!
quote:I'm sure I'm not the only one who has grown tired of all the self-proclaimed 'net gurus standing on their perches and yelling down at everyone about how they're the only ones who have it all figured out.
Sandman, you really have had your head in the sand for awhile....I've been posting 'bout questioning many established beliefs including how the shoulders load and unload.....
FWIW, you're the one who proclaims to have it figured out.....I'm not there yet.....
Bluedog
Where is the "middle"...? How do you use the "middle", and how would a hitter incorperate the idea of using his "middle" into his swing.
If you answer these questions we can avoid further bloodshed in this forum.
bluedog
If the hips are leading the way (ahead of the rest of the upper body) then how can they not matter. I dont understand what is pulling the hips into place if they are first in line. IMO rotating the hips doesnt refer to the beltline, but includes your azz and belly button as well.
Where is the "middle"...? How do you use the "middle", and how would a hitter incorperate the idea of using his "middle" into his swing.
If you answer these questions we can avoid further bloodshed in this forum.
bluedog
quote:Much more than upper half in those clips.....And, those clips make my point, which is, the hips don't matter......It ain't about the hips....!!!!!!
If the hips are leading the way (ahead of the rest of the upper body) then how can they not matter. I dont understand what is pulling the hips into place if they are first in line. IMO rotating the hips doesnt refer to the beltline, but includes your azz and belly button as well.
BullDog,
You really DO have a serious issue w/ reading what people write w/o adding your own twisted slant, don't you?
Here it is again for you... read slowly, little boy:
Why not be a man and just admit that you were wrong about Manny not being one who does open his hips a bit into foot plant instead of just slinging insults as a cover-up? No one's perfect. Unlike you, we won't judge you.
And for you to try to fool this board into thinking that I, of all people, "don't need to learn anymore" is beyond ludicrous!?! Anyone whose been around as long as you have should know better than to accuse me of that. I'm ALWAYS learning. I'm not a guy who posts his kid's swing looking for praise, nor do I have some firm belief system that I cram down everyone's throats. Get real!
I still say, "Put up, or SHUT up!". Show us your trained hitters and we'll start genuflecting when you enter a thread.
You really DO have a serious issue w/ reading what people write w/o adding your own twisted slant, don't you?
Here it is again for you... read slowly, little boy:
I didn't imply that "I have it all figured out". Just that it's pretty easy to see/prove things like "Are the hips opening prior to foot plant?"quote:I feel that I've become pretty comfortable/accurate at using video to prove my observational points - points about WHAT I see occurring in the swing and when. What I'm not yet comfortable with is my ability to determine/teach HOW to make this happen.
Why not be a man and just admit that you were wrong about Manny not being one who does open his hips a bit into foot plant instead of just slinging insults as a cover-up? No one's perfect. Unlike you, we won't judge you.
And for you to try to fool this board into thinking that I, of all people, "don't need to learn anymore" is beyond ludicrous!?! Anyone whose been around as long as you have should know better than to accuse me of that. I'm ALWAYS learning. I'm not a guy who posts his kid's swing looking for praise, nor do I have some firm belief system that I cram down everyone's throats. Get real!
I still say, "Put up, or SHUT up!". Show us your trained hitters and we'll start genuflecting when you enter a thread.
I find the cryptic riddle responses childish
The hips don't work or its in the hands or XYZ are just bits and pieces of a much bigger puzzle that you can either put together or not
If you do know where all the pieces fit then maybe you should stop telling people what you think about one piece or another.
It is an attention getting device that is a waste of good honest people's time. Those post should be ignored all together.
Let the ***** style of taunting people with stupid statements go back where it came from please.
It is like finger nails on a calk board
The hips don't work or its in the hands or XYZ are just bits and pieces of a much bigger puzzle that you can either put together or not
If you do know where all the pieces fit then maybe you should stop telling people what you think about one piece or another.
It is an attention getting device that is a waste of good honest people's time. Those post should be ignored all together.
Let the ***** style of taunting people with stupid statements go back where it came from please.
It is like finger nails on a calk board
