Hips??????

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Coach, my whole point is to understand what SHOULD make the hips open.....You understand this, others don't...

If a hitter merely turns the hips, and he certainly can do so, he is not activating the muscles in the center.....

The hips must open because the muscles in the center are activating....The muscles in the center must do the work....

Serious, non-confrontational question:
And HOW does one learn to do this? These endless debates as to WHAT MLB hitters do vs. amateurs are observatory in nature. Please be specific (no riddles) and TELL us how you teach players to activate the "right" muscles to turn the hips, and almost as importantly, how you monitor their progress in this goal (seeing you can't really see on video which muscles are firing when)?

Another non-confrontational question…

When swinging a bat or an axe is it possible to turn the hips quickly without utilizing the core muscles automatically? Don’t the great hitters use these muscles without thinking about it? Just turning the hips without any emphasis on creating power and quickness would result in a very weak swing, wouldn't it?

Just my meager opinion, but it seems to me that all of this discussion about hips, center, and hands has more to do with timing than anything. One without the other is useless. Swing with the hips as PG stated and you will drag the bat. Rotate the center without letting the hands and hips go with it will not allow for good rotation and will produce weak results. We can break the swing down 8 million ways but when I see a hitter wait long and swing with quickness with good rotation...most things fall into place. Timing in my opinion is the essential ingredient that brings all these areas together, without it no swing (perfect or imperfect will produce anything.)

quote:

Swing with the hips as PG stated and you will drag the bat.

coach, Did I say that somewhere? Your opinion is valuable IMO

PG

quote:

Just turning the hips without any emphasis on creating power and quickness would result in a very weak swing, wouldn't it?

Thats why I like the bat behind the back drill, with the arms hooked over the bat.
When you turn on the ball to drive it.
You can feel the power in your core when you make solid power contact.
That's how it should feel when you swing normally.
I also believe in timing, Also try to hit middle to inside of baseball. Dont hook the ball. Drive it.
EH

quote:

Just turning the hips without any emphasis on creating power and quickness would result in a very weak swing, wouldn't it?

My apologies if I misinterpreted PG.

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
Thats why I like the bat behind the back drill, with the arms hooked over the bat.

The swing in no way resembles the feeling one gets while swinging with the bat behind the back.

The bat is swung in a completely different plane.

I'm not talking about the swing, I'm talking about the core,
And yes it does feel the same if done properly?
It let's you know how to use your core rather than your arms.
Are should I say let's you feel how much power you can create out of your core if you try that drill.
It has nothing to do with proper swing mechanics.
Just a drill for younger players to feel how much power comes from the core and not the arms.
Try it before you knock it?
EH

Nope.

Busy work.

Me to.
Very busy?
Yep.

Chameleon is correct....The bat behind the back drill doesn't resemble the swing in any way.....

The swing is a completely different feeling.....

quote:

It let's you know how to use your core rather than your arms.

TheEH, there is some arm action involved that needs to be understood.....The arms need to work properly, too.....

True,

I'm saying that the feeling you get from the core when you use this drill. If done properly.
Allow's you to feel the power that can be generated from the core.
It has nothing to do with proper swing mechanic's.
It allow's a young player to feel that power of the core.
Young hitter's try to use to much arm and not enough core.
This allows them to feel the power that can be created from the core.

When you get to that point, Then the batter can work on bat swing and the whip of the bat in the proper plane.
And of course Timing.

Just a drill nothing else.
EH

Mike-

I think in the high percentage of cases, kids learn to do this (**** hips, coil body) in the overhand throw then carryover the ability to **** the hips and coil the body to hitting.

In throwing you have set shoulder/torso tilt that you create and maintain.

In hitting, there is a different timing of weight shift synch and the need to adjust shoulder tilt on fly, but the loading and coiling are very similar between throwing and swinging.

I like the N***** throwing model plus a little tweaking from Hodge and Wolforth.

In N**** throwing terms, "beachball" is the hip **** and "stepover" is the rubberbandwinding/rotation into toe touch where the right muscles are synched and activated which permits coiling the torso and projecting the pelvis the mlb way.

in previous post:

**** hips = c-o-c-k hips.

gotta love those **** controls.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
in previous post:

**** hips = c-o-c-k hips.

gotta love those **** controls.

You can't even say s-o-c-c-e-r.

quote:

s-o-c-c-e-r?

I hardly know her

I have broken down hundreds of films on various types of hitters at every level ranging from 9 yrs old to pro. After doing this we have categorized hitters into the following:

1) Rotational
2) Linear
3) Hybrid

Each type of hack brings a different set of circumstances. That being said, arguments about heel plant, hip rotation, etc... must be classified for understanding (not agreement) by differing opinions.

I believe that we teach more of a rotational style but we definitely have more kids turn out to be hybrids due to some of our "loading" and "finish" philosophy. According to what we teach, its all about the hips and shoulders (the block) being on time. the focus goes to the lower half as to keep the upper half as relaxed and whiplike as possible. we feel like if a kid cannot get his lower half in a "strong" hitting position that it is near impossible, outside of the stars lining up just right on a given pitch, for you upper half to be in a good "launch" position. The "core" muscles must be dependent on each other. one without the other is a a streaky to lucky hitter at best!

What I can't believe is that it took till I think page five of this post before anyone even mentioned pitch locations effect on the hip rotation. PG Staff hit all the nails right on the head. And altough I am not in the same league as most of you guys the way I see it no hips no power. Seems like power has become a dirty word in lots of hitting circles anyway. Oh and just a question what should the hips be doing on the low outside fastball?

Jimwis,

Nothing different than any other location with regards to the hips imo. Just hit the pitch where its thrown, in this case right side of the field.

EH,

The exercise you recommended by placing the bat behind your arms, reach (not step) with their front foot and learn how to turn with balance is an excellent exercise when teaching rotational hitting.

You nor I am saying it 100% replicates the swing but it does provide the hitter with what it feels like to actually be balanced throughout the swing movement. It makes it easy to show them how to remain athletic and to reach to a bent front knee and then for them to feel the correct balance and movement as their front leg straightens as they rotate their core.

quote:

......but it does provide the hitter with what it feels like to actually be balanced throughout the swing movement.

SBK, balance in the swing is misunderstood....And, IMO, you misunderstand it, also.....

quote:

.....reach (not step) with their front foot.....

Babe Ruth didn't reach.....He stepped bigtime!!....So did Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron and the rest, too!!

I have to say, also, that it ain't just about rotation......It's about loading and unloading properly......

You don't just stand there and rotate!!

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......

Post load and 70% of everything else in the swing comes through perfect. Your hips lead no matter who you watch

Do you know how the hips lead??

When do the hips begin to open in the swing??

Bluedog,

So let's get this straight. You read a post and figured out I don't understand balance. The exercise EH recommends is no good because you say so, and you preach that it's not just about rotating, you have to load..... Now that's profound.

In addition you have a problem with my cue about a htter moving their lead foot when I tell them to "reach" because Ruth, Williams and Aaron "step big time. Certaily you must know that some hitters walk their hands back like the aforementioned while some of us prefer to start our hands further back, "reach" with the lead foot and keep our body from going forward as much as others... ala Bonds.

I could just see you working with hitters and tell them to... "step big time". I prefer not to.

Bluedog, you often have a clue. This isn't one of those times.

Also, don't assume always someone doesn't understand because they didn't explain it or even mentioned it in a post. Many of us have neither the time nor the interest in listing every detail, thought or principle in every post.

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/dunn_adam1.mpeg

Practically all amateur players would feel like they are not balanced if they swung like Dunn in the above clip....The reason is, by practicing drills like yall say, teaches them that Dunn's swing is not balanced.....

Balance in the swing has to do with the hands and arms reaching sometimes like in the Dunn clip.....You don't balance to the ground to put that great of a swing on that pitch!!

quote:

Do you know how the hips lead??

When do the hips begin to open in the swing??

After the hips have loaded, they begin a forward movement. At the same time the load is still continuing upward in the body. As the front shoulder reaches it's load, and the hands have c o c k e d , tilting the barrel forward, the hips begin to uncoil. In most instances, the hip's turn will begin somewhere between toe touch and heel plant. From the hips coiling, and moving forward, while the upper body rotates rearward, to the unloading of the hips in a continuous move which creates elastic energy of the core allowing the upper body to rotate with power.

Kind of wordy, but hopefully, that makes sense.

It does!!

thank you. Trying to put it into words was kind of .

Bluedog,

Adam Dunn doesn't fit in with the players you named earlier who "step bigtime". He is in the group that loads their hands further back initially and has little forward body movement and I mentioned I prefer.

He appears to be a no strider but if he took a step, he would be a player who would appreciate my cue of "reach" with the lead foot and certainly not "stride bigtime" as you brought up.

You lose me and probably others when you use this clip as an example why you shouldn't use the exercise EH and some of the rest of us'all use.

As far as the Adam Dunn clip, he appears to be "fooled" and quite early on the swing. He is certainly reaching and pulling a ball that many hitters would prefer to do something else with. Usually when a hitter, including Adam, is this "off balance" on a swing, the results are not as good.

The best hitters have more margin for error through their technique and strength. The bottom line is that some of us instructors have found the exercise that EH mentioned useful for teaching balance, loading, reaching your lead foot, landing softly staying back, keeping your arms from reaching, landing on a bent lead knee athletically, and other pieces of a major league swing.

For the benefit of readers, the exercise is simply to place the bat behind your back and hold it with both elbows.

It doesn't much matter what the exercise or drill is, if a person doesn't know how to use it or doesn't understand how to teach a big league swing, it's probably not going to improve the hitter like it could anyway.

I have seen that clip of Dunn used many times to explain things. I would use it to show my kids why he has a low lifetime average and a ton of stike-outs. If he learns to hit that pitch the other way, then look-out. Until then he has great power, but gets himself out WAY too often.

quote:

Usually when a hitter, including Adam, is this "off balance" on a swing, the results are not as good.

SBK, just what I said before....You don't understand balance as it pertains to a high level swing........

The Dunn clip is a lesson in what balance in the swing should look like!!

Hsballcoach, to use a MLB swing as an example of what not to do, well,..........

I just don't view a lifetime .246 hitter who averages nearly 170 strikeouts per year as the ideal swing for kids to emulate. Not every major league swing is a great one. Would Dunn be in the bigs with those numbers if he were not very strong and could hit the long ball? Probably not. I would like my kids to study the guys with high averages and good pop in their bat.

And now the rule according to Bluedog is you can't cite any major league hitter's swings as something you shouldn't do because they must do everything right all the time.

Hsballcoach is right on when he uses the Dunn clip as perhaps the reason he has a low batting average and strikes out nearly 1 out of 3 times.

I'll grant you that Mr. Dunn is exhibiting great balance in being able to be out front and pull an outside breaking ball over the fence without falling on his face. I'd suggest that a hitter be in a more athletic position, hit the ball further back and drive the ball to the opposite field. This approach would lead to less strikouts, a better average and probably better power numbers.

Would you concur Bluedog or do you advocate "stepping bigtime" and "reaching your arms out to maintain balance" and pulling the off speed pitch on the outside?

OK here I go don,t blow me up I am fifty and refuse to be lectured any more.

But isn't it important that the hips stay closed a little longer on the low outside fastball. And open a little quicker on the inside fastball. Pretty basic stuff...... but to say the hips are the same no mater what the pitch is just dosen,t seem true.
Please without being condisending if I am missing something let me know.
I watch my son hit with good power to all fields using this approach. I know even good hitters can sometimes get fooled by some good pitches. But using this approach even when fooled if the hands stay back you can often still put a quality swing on the ball. I do believe that thinking hard line drive up the middle and showing the pitcher your belt buckle will let pitch location dictate where the ball is hit. But in some must make contact situations like hit and run you have to be willing to let the ball get deeper or be a little quicker and that does create diffrent situations for the hips.

But like I said I am fifty now and CRS has truly set in.

The location of the pitch and the resulting timing of the hip movement does not change "what" the hips do, just "when" it does it.

The hips will be in a different place, relative to the plate, at contact (further into rotation on inside pitch, earlier in the rotation on outside pitch, but the hip rotation itself does not change).

Do the angles of the hips, hands and barrel differ on inside/outside pitches?

Or, if you stand in front of mirror, and position yourself in the position at point of contact with the ball, just adjust shoulder tilt, posture and degree of rotation without changing anything else, and you will see the relationship of hips/hands/barrel does not need to change (yet, they are different relative to the plate) to hit any pitch.

Noreast,I quess we do agree....
I don't know how many different ways of hip rotation there can be. But I think this topic went a long time without adressing quicker,slower, deeper, out front,inside,outside etc.
I think the word timing sums up a lot of those things. I think we all should agree that hip rotation is pivotal (LOL) when it comes to hitting.

Like Kevin Costner said in the movie Tin Cup (in regards to hitting a golf ball) It is like a symphony all coming together at once

At least the golf ball insn't coming at you at 90+ mph. With some dirty last minute tail.
Which could open up a whole new thread..... Do you think there are more bad golfers or more bad hitters out there??????