Hips??????

Tell it to the Babe.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......

What's the alternative?

What would you have people focus on and why?

If I get BD's drift... I know that when I focus too much in my golf swing on turning the hips, I end up spinning them out so early that I "lose" my hands/arms behind my body, resulting in either a classic "outside/in over-the-top pull/hook or block/slice" OR worse, the dreaded shank.

Yes, the hips do lead the way, but there's probably a point of diminishing (damaging) returns?

Is that what you're alluding to, BD?

The hips turn as a consequence of something else, IMO......

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
The hips turn as a consequence of something else, IMO......

And what is that?

Bluedog, do you then argue that the hips aren't beginning to open as that front heel hits?

On another board the discussion on hips and the inside low pitch was very interesting. ie. sit (very minute but present), hips open in the same movement as the hitter adjust tilt to react to ball location. Something to think about. I'll look around for some video.

Forgot to add, do you think that the hips respond to the hitter moving the middle?

Good Video of a MLB Hitter "Moving the Middle."

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=10&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

quote:

Bluedog, do you then argue that the hips aren't beginning to open as that front heel hits?

Coach, I believe in some hitters they do and in some they don't....

Some hitters rotate into footplant and some don't, IMO....

quote:

.....do you think that the hips respond to the hitter moving the middle?

I do indeed....

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Bluedog, do you then argue that the hips aren't beginning to open as that front heel hits?

The hips start to open long before heel plant.

Uhhhh, not in all hitters......

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=11&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

quote:

Do you think that the middle moves before the hands?

If it doesn't, you've got problems......

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Bluedog, do you then argue that the hips aren't beginning to open as that front heel hits?

The hips start to open long before heel plant.

Yes, as per the video I linked to on Siggy's site. I made this statement (Question) in this manner to let Blue Dog discuss it. FYI, I was trying to get away from the impression that I try to force my views on others with regards to hitting. Rather, I'd let you, Blue Dog, etc. make your case. Thus the aforementioned statement about not posting on this site much in the hitting forum recently.

Blue Dog, nice use of Siggy's site to make your point!

Take care,

I would like to add one more thing to this discussion. ie. the use of video. Chameleon made the point on another site about the use of video both in slow motion and in real time. It was a valid point. I find that I'm spending a huge amount of time on my RVP Program (you can use several programs so you don't have to have the software I have.) watching MLB Hitters lately. I did a session with some of my Dads in our feeder program this past few weeks where we looked at what they were taught as players/kids and what the realities are. (Now, I know we can take these "realities" and even argue them.) What transpired was that many had not watched video ever. EVER! In all of our quest to understand what we are teaching, I think that Chameleon's point is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL in that journey! JMHO!

(Kind of like what I wanted Blue Dog to discuss and what he referenced in the video link he provided.)

Here's another perspective of Manny, stopping at the first frame at which he drops his heel.

Hips turning already or not?

quote:

Originally posted by Sandman:
Hips turning already or not?

Looks to me like Manny's hips (just barely) start to turn a couple of frames before the front heel plants.

That's before the heel plants, but not well before in the case of Manny.

Believe it's safe to say that the vast majority of MLB hitters do rotate into foot plant.

A good swing takes under 5 frames.

Looks like Manny is turning his hips 2-3 frames before heel plant

Thepainguy says "that is not well before".

It's only 40-60% of the entire swing duration.

Compare these......Hips open in different time frames...


http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac03.mpeg

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg

Based on my observations hips generally begin to open at about toe touch...

How can any conclusions be drawn as to when the hips open in relation to other parts of the swing/body when the clips only show the upper half of their bodies???

Sandman, my comment was a general observation based on my studies in case your wondering.

Actually NYdad, I was referring to BlueDog even citing those 2 clips.

OK...just felt the need to clarify

Sorry, I should've quoted him to make it clearer.

quote:

How can any conclusions be drawn as to when the hips open in relation to other parts of the swing/body when the clips only show the upper half of their bodies???

Much more than upper half in those clips.....And, those clips make my point, which is, the hips don't matter......It ain't about the hips....!!!!!!

Here it is again, Sandman!!!

quote:

There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......

But you also said:

quote:

Compare these......Hips open in different time frames...

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac03.mpeg

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg

"Different time frames" in relation to what?

On second thought, never mind. I only posted the other 2 Manny clips in rebuttal to the one you referenced of Manny in which it looked like he didn't turn his hips as much into foot plant.

But I just don't see this debate going anywhere. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

Enjoy!

quote:

"Different time frames" in relation to what?

Sandman, I have been reading your posts for a long time and I know you put alot of emphasis on the hips.....It's not about opening the hips in a certain timeframe......It's about how the hips open...What makes them open???....Doesn't matter when!!!!

That's funny, cuz I hardly ever discuss the hips w/ my son, nor do I really recall spending much time writing about how to [consciously] move them (specifically, as opposed to observations like "hips stopped turning" or "shoulders turning more/faster than hips", etc.) over the past 5 years???

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......

Hmmm... Recall that (a) I only commented that the hips do lead the way (notice I didn't suggest any conscious sequential movement thoughts on the part of a hitter to make that happen tho?) and (b) I posted clips of Manny opening his hips into foot plant after you posted a clip of him that did not show much of this.

Interestingly though...

TODAY:

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog, February 20, 2007:
It's not about opening the hips in a certain timeframe.

AND SOME HISTORY"

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog, March 28, 2004:
I believe the hips should open early.....They actually should begin opening during the stride.....Did I say this???..Yes, I did.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog, August 21, 2004:
"You need a swing that's short in the back, and long in the front."

Wrong!!!........Hitters need EFFICIENT swings.......Bat qUickness and proper technique make a swing EFFICIENT......The hips should move the legs........Not the other way around.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog, March 06, 2006:
His hips rotate into foot plant as all MLB hitters do......The top half never closes...That would require counter-rotation and that doesn't happen.....MLB hitters load the shoulder muscles by pinching them....There's no torque involved and the so-called torque position simply doesn't exist in the MLB swing.....

The hip rotation forces the front foot to the ground as the hips begin the rotation.....It's rotate into foot plant, not throw the foot down, then rotate.....

Torque in the MLB swing is a fallacy and does not exist.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog, May 16, 2006:
MLB hitters rotate the hips into foot plant....The hips are rotating before the front foot comes down.....

The brain makes the decision to swing, or not to swing....If the decision is not to swing, the shoulders don't rotate.....The hands and arms connect to the shoulders and follow their lead.....

It's about hips and shoulders, not arms and hands....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog, May 18, 2006:
NYdad, hips opening is the beginning of rotation.....

Weight shift momentum first, then rotation....

Weight shift momentum is chaos.......The chaos is controlled and turned into rotation just before footplant......

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog, May 19, 2006:
A hitter doesn't have time to commit to a swing after foot plant.....Foot plant happens to late to begin the swing....And, the hips begin rotating before foot plant....If they didn't, the swing would be way late....

I thought it didn't matter when the hips opened???

Sandman, those posts were when I believed the center to be other than what I now know to be the center.....

Your problem is, you don't have a clue where the center is.....As a result, you cannot understand balance in the swing.....

I have posted many times about re-thinking my hitting beliefs.....You, obviously, have been sleeping for awhile........Rip Van Winkle style..

If you understand this it is all you will ever need to understand.

THe natural front foot position to block weight is open 45 degree...that is where the body land it to stop weight over a bent knee and to give to an fro balance.

Williams said the most important part of hitting was to coil the hips as you stride. I think he considered that a teach or a major point of emphasis.

Now if you coil your hips as you stride and do what is natural at block then you WILL rotate into foot plant. The actual rotate into foot plant is not the teach....the hip coil during the stride IS a major teach.

The next teach is how to get the shoulder to come back to the ball. Certain loading patterns do this as a side effect. The BHUT pattern of Williams causes some wrist bind with hip coil and is simply a hand trigger that allows the hips to coil but the shoulders to dely their loading until the front foot is about 4-5 inches from foot plant. SO the shoulder load as the hips unload. That is plain to see in some form in all great hitters

When the barrel starts out of plane and then transitions back to plane ; the up and over of the rear elbow works in time with the lead knee flaring stretching the rubber band middle that is not a power generator but a storage device when forces are applied above and below it.

From a frontal view the point of the shoulder is moving IN to the ball as the point of the hips is rotating out( due to the uncoil to get the front foot in position).

This widens the hip/ shoulder torque angle AS the COM is moved forward. Lead arm extension occurs due to spatial separation and not any king of linear lead arm push back. The shoulders slight LATE counter rotation( coming back to the ball not trying to stay on the ball) coupled with the lead leg opening lengthen the lead arm at precisely the right time (DURING THE STRIDE) as a side effect is spatial torque development

AT GO EPSTEIN is right. THe shoulders TILT to seek the plane AND release the barrel on the same move. Early attemmpts to line up the rear shoulder on the ball raises the lead shoulder and prematurely lets stretch out of the rubber band. So GO is two things

1, the sudden relative change of the elbow positions

2, the lateral shoulder tilt .....and the lead elbow moving from a low position to jutting up and the rear elbow going from UP to quickly slotting. This move unlocks the closed shoulders like pulling a trigger and the elbow change torques the handle blurring the barrel in one frame behind the hitter.

SO the coiling of the hips and BHUT move are X angle stretchers. The stride is simply to move the COG to the new balance center although lead arm extension does occur from the spatial separation developed during this period

The stretch in the middle is created and stored during the shift from forces applied above and below the middle during the movement of the middle. THe movement forward of the middle is essential to be balanced in a forward position at GO to stop the reverse pivot

The release of the stretch happens one way and one way only...tilt.

You cannot block and TILT without a strong need for the the lead leg goes into full extension making the hips turn to completion just as the shoulders tilt and the elbow change relative position

SO it is not the hips. It is not the shoulders. Every swing is a combination of rotation and weight shift, torque formation and sudden release. To teach this you need to see the whole move

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Sandman, those posts were when I believed the center to be other than what I now know to be the center.....

Your problem is, you don't have a clue where the center is.....As a result, you cannot understand balance in the swing.....

And exactly WHAT did I say in my posts above that makes you think that? Be specific.

All I originally said was "Yes, the hips do lead the way, but there's probably a point of diminishing (damaging) returns?" It was an observation, not a cue.

Then I simply offered 2 clips of Manny showing that his hips were opening into foot plant when YOU tried to make everyone think that he didn't do that (w/ the one clip you posted). I didn't offer any suggestions as to HOW he was doing that though; I just brought into question the clip you posted.

Stop being so darned presumptuous, read what people SAY and stop putting words into people's mouths!!!

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has grown tired of all the self-proclaimed 'net gurus standing on their perches and yelling down at everyone about how they're the only ones who have it all figured out. Then, a month or year later, they've discovered something different in the swing - a new revelation - and now THAT's the all-important point that the rest of the world needs enlightening on.

I feel that I've become pretty comfortable/accurate at using video to prove my observational points - points about WHAT I see occurring in the swing and when. What I'm not yet comfortable with is my ability to determine/teach HOW to make this happen. Do my hitters get better throughout the season? Usually. Do I have anything to do w/ it? Hopefully. But are they swinging exactly like mini-MLB'ers? Heck no!

And I would challenge you and the other 'net gurus on that too. Post some before/after video clips (and the after can't be a year or 2 down the line, when a hitter might've seen other instructors, grown more physically/confident, or just plain figured it out on his own). No, something in the timeframe of a few weeks to a couple months. Tell us (better yet, SHOW us video of you teaching/showing him HOW to hit) the exact cues/drills/instructions you used w/ him and SHOW us the improvement. Prove to us that you have had actual success in changing a youth hitter's mechanics for the better (not just improving their results, which could be attributed to many things).

Until then, you're just another over-self-assured bag of internet hot air.

quote:

I feel that I've become pretty comfortable/accurate at using video to prove my observational points - points about WHAT I see occurring in the swing and when.

Then you don't need to learn anymore.......

May I suggest you discuss hitting with others who have learned it all like you have....I'm a waste of your time 'cause I'm still learning!!

quote:

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has grown tired of all the self-proclaimed 'net gurus standing on their perches and yelling down at everyone about how they're the only ones who have it all figured out.

Sandman, you really have had your head in the sand for awhile....I've been posting 'bout questioning many established beliefs including how the shoulders load and unload.....

FWIW, you're the one who proclaims to have it figured out.....I'm not there yet.....

Bluedog

Where is the "middle"...? How do you use the "middle", and how would a hitter incorperate the idea of using his "middle" into his swing.

If you answer these questions we can avoid further bloodshed in this forum.


bluedog

quote:

Much more than upper half in those clips.....And, those clips make my point, which is, the hips don't matter......It ain't about the hips....!!!!!!

If the hips are leading the way (ahead of the rest of the upper body) then how can they not matter. I dont understand what is pulling the hips into place if they are first in line. IMO rotating the hips doesnt refer to the beltline, but includes your azz and belly button as well.

BullDog,

You really DO have a serious issue w/ reading what people write w/o adding your own twisted slant, don't you?

Here it is again for you... read slowly, little boy:

quote:

I feel that I've become pretty comfortable/accurate at using video to prove my observational points - points about WHAT I see occurring in the swing and when. What I'm not yet comfortable with is my ability to determine/teach HOW to make this happen.

I didn't imply that "I have it all figured out". Just that it's pretty easy to see/prove things like "Are the hips opening prior to foot plant?"

Why not be a man and just admit that you were wrong about Manny not being one who does open his hips a bit into foot plant instead of just slinging insults as a cover-up? No one's perfect. Unlike you, we won't judge you.

And for you to try to fool this board into thinking that I, of all people, "don't need to learn anymore" is beyond ludicrous!?! Anyone whose been around as long as you have should know better than to accuse me of that. I'm ALWAYS learning. I'm not a guy who posts his kid's swing looking for praise, nor do I have some firm belief system that I cram down everyone's throats. Get real!

I still say, "Put up, or SHUT up!". Show us your trained hitters and we'll start genuflecting when you enter a thread.

I find the cryptic riddle responses childish

The hips don't work or its in the hands or XYZ are just bits and pieces of a much bigger puzzle that you can either put together or not

If you do know where all the pieces fit then maybe you should stop telling people what you think about one piece or another.

It is an attention getting device that is a waste of good honest people's time. Those post should be ignored all together.

Let the ***** style of taunting people with stupid statements go back where it came from please.

It is like finger nails on a calk board

FYI, I'm not an internet hitting guru! I've been doing this for a year or two and have had some success. You know what? I still have a lot to learn. When I make posts on hitting, I readily admit that there are subjects I won't get very indepth discussing including "Moving the Middle" per agreements elsewhere. However, when I post those things I've discovered be it video work or working with my hitters, it is simply one person's observations on a long journey. Naturally, I have my own opinions about who I enjoy discussing hitting with and I know that swingbuster does as well. While we aren't in the same "camp" I've always appreciated his knowledge. As I've stated before, I consider Blue Dog a friend. Ok so I'll stay out of these discussion for now.

Hmmm... CoachB25, was your post directed at me?

quote:

Originally posted by Sandman:
Hmmm... CoachB25, was your post directed at me?

No, really it wasn't directed at anyone. General statement! I try to avoid hitting discussions since I used to get myself into trouble in a no win situation. I do most of my hitting discussion on another site. Take care!

I hear ya!

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......

The reason I use the term "the hips" when talking about rotation is that it's something that most people can readily understand.

The same thing isn't true when it comes to a term like "the center".

quote:

I still say, "Put up, or SHUT up!". Show us your trained hitters and we'll start genuflecting when you enter a thread.

Sandman, you entered my thread.....I don't enter yours.....And, there is a reason for that.....

I just went back and checked and, yep, this is my thread.......Started by me......

To think I entered my own thread!!!!..

Yes, and I politely corrected your miscue on Manny's hips opening prior to footplant. Then you got defensive. Thanks for the update.

You've made a lot of good points over the years and I usually enjoy reading you. But if you're going to condescend the way you do, back it up, or you're hard to take serious.

P.S.
This is a public forum, so there are no "MY threads".

Oh BTW, I guess I won't be proven wrong afterall.

quote:

Originally posted by Sandman:
But I just don't see this debate going anywhere. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

Sandman, you just don't get it......

You say you have grown tired of the gurus?????...You can figure out for yourself what the video shows????......Yet, you don't understand what differing degrees of rotating into footplant implies.......Manny rotates into footplant much less convincingly, and much later than many other MLB hitters.....I don't think you have a clue as to what this suggests....Or, what the implication is....

Some hitters finish high, and some finish low.....Again, I don't believe you have a clue as to why or if it even matters.....

You draw your lines and cicles and such on the pics like a detective as you try to figure out the effects of what they are doing.....You have always concentrated on effects.....And, you have always managed to overlook the causes......You do this without any help from the gurus......Blame them all you want as you continue to struggle with understanding this stuff.....

quote:

How can any conclusions be drawn as to when the hips open in relation to other parts of the swing/body when the clips only show the upper half of their bodies???

This statement is very revealing as to the fact that you just don't get it, Sandman......This is why you admittedly struggle with teaching......I gave you two clips which you should study very intently....Instead, you display your lack of understanding while complaining about how you are tired of gurus, whatever that means.....Perhaps you are tired of others understanding what you don't??????

How do you know the muscles that rotate the hips aren't trying to do so but there is no movement because the upper body is acting to hold everything back until the appropriate time?

Which means the hips may start rotating, at least the muscles that do the job, may activate long before you can see it.

The hips get a running start.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Sandman, you just don't get it......

Yet, you don't understand what differing degrees of rotating into footplant implies.

That's funny. I don't recall offering any input that would lead you to believe that I do/don't undersand this??? I simply provided 2 clips that showed Manny rotating more into foot plant than the one you provided. From there, the discussion could've/should've turned into more about "But Manny does this less... why?". Instead, you got your panties all bunched up and went on the defensive.

I sincerely believe that I am not alone in "struggling to teach this stuff" because I am willing to prove what I teach is working or not... ON VIDEO. IOW, I can teach all I want - and my hitters' results DO improve, and we DO win titles, etc.. But then I look at video of their swings and see the same common youth flaws they've always had.

You may be more comfortable that you have this stuff figured out and can teach w/ better results. Fine. Post some before/after video and I'll believe you're any better than me or the thousands of other "struggling" Dads trying to help kids.

Yes, I draw my lines and circles "like a detective", sometimes offering NO input w/ it, just trying to keep the discussion "honest"/accurate, so that we might all benefit from it. So when you get caught by the "detective", why not just OWN UP and move on?!

Also, the reason I draw is because I believe we need to know where we're heading. Yes, the focus is on "effect" because we can't see HOW they got to those positions. But we CAN see the positions and, IMO, use them as "goals" or "barometers". IOW, at some point, when I compare my hitters to pros, I want them to eventually/someday swing like them (if at all possible). How would I know that they are though? Just because they hit a HR? No, I submit that my line/circle drawing is in the same category as anyone who posts a side-by-side of a kid w/ a pro - comparison.

Now, HOW we go about making that happen is surely the bigger challenge, hence the proliferation of so many wildly-varying internet opinions on HOW to swing. IMO, certain things are tangible/measurable: balance (head centered over middle of feet from side, shoulders over toes from front/pitcher), timing of upper body load (rear elbow up at stride toe touch instead of tucked at side already), etc.. And these are the means by which we can objectively measure our hitters progress - unless of course we just watch the line drives to the back of the cage and subjectively self-proclaim our methods successful? The only reason I admit that I "struggle" to teach youth hitters is because I put my teachings to the [video] test. How do YOU monitor your hitters' progress???

As to you "giving me 2 clips that I should study intently"... you changed gears! The discussion was about the hips and whether Manny's opened into foot plant. I showed that they did. Then you posted 2 clips in which the hitter's hips aren't even visible?! Yeah, maybe they have relevance and should be discussed. But that was just a smoke-n-mirrors job on your part. If those were the ones that should be studied, why didn't you just post THEM in the first place?

No, BD, I think YOU just don't get it. I posted quotes from you from the past few years, back when you were just as adamantly proclaiming that you knew it all and we were all stupid. Now you're adamantly on another bandwagon. And yes, modifying our way of thinking IS good. But w/ you doing a complete 180 on this "hips open into foot plant" thing, WHY on earth should we listen to you (and believe that we're all dumb) when you offer no PROOF of your teachings???

I'm out of "your" thread now. Let the lurkers judge for themselves. I have a kid to teach and 2 teams, as well. There are plenty of other sites where amicable discussions can usually be had. You can stay here and continue talking down to everyone in "your" thread.

quote:

The discussion was about the hips and whether Manny's opened into foot plant.

Sandman, wrong..... More proof that you don't get it...

It was about the overemphasis on the hips and the fact that Manny rotates into footplant much later and with much less emphasis than some other MLB hitters....

You don't like the two clips I posted because you don't understand what is happening in them....There is "cause" in those clips.....You only look for "effects".....

There you go again, drawing conclusions w/o basis and pontificating.

What exactly did I say that suggests that I don't understand those 2 clips?

You're a waste of time.

Get over yourself.

I notice that you simply ignored everything else - esp. the part where I ask how YOU monitor your hitters?

PUT UP, or STFU already!!! These discussions about who thinks they know more about what's going on inside a pro hitter's body are purely a matter of opinion. That's why there are so many interpretations - "arm action is king", "move the middle", etc.. Your opinion is irrelevant if you can't back it up.

SHOW US the hitters you've taught, focusing on your [current, seeing you've "evolved"] particular areas of emphasis. Don't explain it in riddles either. Provide a step-by-step blueprint for how YOU make hitters better. Then SHOW US the results on video.

Otherwise you're just an arrogant internet jerk who thinks he knows it all.

Is anyone else besides BullDog and me reading this thread??? Feel free to chime in.

quote:

Originally posted by Sandman:
Otherwise you're just an arrogant internet jerk who thinks he knows it all.

That is why I stay out of these discussions. After a few times, it gets old and repetitive.

Most important thing in teaching any baseball skill...

Results!!!

'

You're right, PG... results on the field are what count. And there are a host of varying swing mechanics that manage to get it done.

But when you're training in a cage or practice, if a player is pounding the ball, do you always just leave him alone? Or could it be that the BP pitching is unrealistically easy and that's why he's succeeding in that environment? IOW, is it still valid to periodically check video to see if the player's mechanics are improving so that he can continue to succeed as the pitching gets tougher?

quote:

Originally posted by Sandman:
But when you're training in a cage or practice, if a player is pounding the ball, do you always just leave him alone? Or could it be that the BP pitching is unrealistically easy and that's why he's succeeding in that environment? IOW, is it still valid to periodically check video to see if the player's mechanics are improving so that he can continue to succeed as the pitching gets tougher?

Great point.

A swing that works at one level may not work at the next level.

It's no simple task to re-build a guy's swing, so I think they should be taught the right way the first time. Also, I have seen 7Us with great rotational swings, so I don't buy the argument that you have to baby step your way into a rotational swing (e.g. squish the bug for a few years in order to get hip rotation down).

Results are generally a product of those baseball skills and hard work of course

quote:

Provide a step-by-step blueprint for how YOU make hitters better.

Sandman, why don't you start some threads and show us your understanding of the swing?......Can you do more than post trivial nonsense???.....

Come on Sandman, step up to the plate and start some threads for us to learn from you!!!!...

Why? I don't have some undying need to prove that I'm the smartest internet hitting guru-wanna-be. I start threads when I have questions - usually about how to help my son improve. I also participate in other people's threads when I think I can help or help clarify something (yes, often by "drawing my lines and circles" ). I often do that just to try to add a picture to someone's words (afterall, "a picture is worth a 1,000 words", right? ).

You and I have totally different agendas pal. I'll start a thread when I have something to say/ask; not just to puff my chest.

BTW, I notice you still haven't addressed my challenge to you to post video of your hitters doing what you teach? Oversight? Or convenient maneuver?

O.K. Sandman.....So, we can expect more trivial nonsense from you.....And, no suggestions as to how to swing a bat.....I got it.....

No... you DON'T "got it", evidently.

I don't post "Here's my entire theory on [my current, as of today, but ever-evolving] swing mechanics" because I'm not trying to establish myself as an internet swing guru. Nor do I post rude little jabs/riddles telling people how clueless they are. I post when I have specific questions or think I might be able to offer useful input to someone else's questions.

NOW do you "get it"?

(But please keep dodging my challenge to backup your constant condescending. I'm sure none of the other readers can see through that tactic?! )

Hey, it's Blue Dog's thread. Leave him alone.

He looks fully capable of talking to himself. (edited - please keep it clean)

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Sandman, why don't you start some threads and show us your understanding of the swing?......Can you do more than post trivial nonsense???.....

Come on Sandman, step up to the plate and start some threads for us to learn from you!!!!...

I certainly don't claim to know it all. NTL, I wrote this article a couple weeks ago, in prep for a team practice, in which we went over this (live/demo), then I gave each player a copy of this to take home.

Loading Sequence - Hips Before Shoulders

Perhaps 12YOs are too young to digest this type of material? That's why we explained it to them, showed them video, and demonstrated the movements. Will they get it right away? Probably not. But changing swings isn't an overnight process. Hopefully, some of their parents read the article too and can help them practice at home.

Of course, BullDog will probably just chastise my "lines and circles" again as "useless focus on effects". But I don't really care if he approves. Maybe the info can help some others who might be reading this thread? But don't worry, if it doesn't help, or you don't agree with it... I won't call you "clueless".

Sandman,
Good article. Is it possible that this thread will get back to discussing hitting?

Bluedog

quote:

Much more than upper half in those clips.....And, those clips make my point, which is, the hips don't matter......It ain't about the hips....!!!!!!

Ted Williams

quote:

The way you bring your hips into the swing is directly proportionate to the power you generate

Saying the "the hips dont matter" is a "theory" that might require a little more research.

Thanks deemax.

Ted Williams
quote:
The way you bring your hips into the swing is directly proportionate to the power you generate


Actually, you may have just made BD's point. Read the Ted Williams statement again, and what BD is saying.

Wayback, some people will never get it.....

Nice to see you do......

Bluedog

Going back to the McGuire/Vladi clips.....they each show a different way of "using" the hips in their swing.

Are you suggesting that since each (both accomplished MLB hitters) uses a different way, that there is something else going on, or do you think one way could be better than the other?

I'll keep my strong opinion out of this. But I have a question... Do the hips matter or not? And why do they or why don't they?

A clue regarding my opinion on this and just about everything else... I believe most everything matters!

PGStaff, let us hear your opinion on the hips......

quote:

Going back to the McGuire/Vladi clips.....they each show a different way of "using" the hips in their swing.

Can you explain what is so different??

The reason I ask is, I don't see any difference in the way they are using their hips....

quote:

Originally posted by Bludog:

Compare these......Hips open in different time frames...

Maybe I didn't word it right, but I was thinking more about why they opened in different time frames.

So if we take the focus off the hips in these clips, are you now referring to the upper body load/unload patterns?

My grandpa once told me… The quicker you can turn the belly button the harder you hit the ball.

Using anyone’s explanation of hitting, over the years, I have yet to hear anyone claim this advice is outdated.

The hips and the rest of the swing work closely together. It’s not open up your hips wait a second and then start your swing. It’s not keep the hips closed and swing. The body works together to create the most possible leverage, most bat speed and accuracy. Opening the hips too early or too slowly destroys all of that.

Watching whatever anyone would claim is a great swing… It is very easy to see the timing and quickness involving the hips becoming an advantage to the things mentioned above.

The only thing that would ever change my mind would be to hear a great hitter tell me the hips are not very important. I’d probably need several great hitters to claim that before changing my opinion.

Quick hips actually allow a hitter to wait longer. Slow hips must start too soon. I have found that quick hips and quick hands seem to go together. (Throwing or hitting) I can’t remember ever seeing a player with slow hips and fast hands. I know from past posts that you don’t believe in the strength or speed of the hands being important either. No matter what terminology is used, be it hands or hips or body… Strength, quickness, timing and accuracy will always be important attributes in baseball and in hitting. It’s the actual natural skill part of hitting.

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood what this topic is about, but that is my opinion.

quote:

So if we take the focus off the hips in these clips, are you now referring to the upper body load/unload patterns?

Wording is important in talking about this....

I am talking about the center.....

Tom Guerry, Swingbuster and Swingbuilder have said many times that the lower body is slave to the upper body....There is alot of truth to this, IMO.....

quote:

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood what this topic is about, but that is my opinion.

PGStaff, you did not misunderstand.....Thanks for the reply.....I did want to hear it.....

quote:

My grandpa once told me… The quicker you can turn the belly button the harder you hit the ball.

Staff, IMO, your grandpa was right.....

Do notice, he said the belly button and not the hips....

bluedog

quote:

Do notice, he said the belly button and not the hips....

Do you have experience turning one without the other?

Thanks PG. Your post was very clear and well thought out, a departure from some others.

quote:

Originally posted by Bluedog:

Wording is important in talking about this....

Would you care to go into a little more detail so we can understand what you're seeing? I'm running out of questions.

quote:

Would you care to go into a little more detail so we can understand what you're seeing?

Maybe you can explain your details so we can see what you are saying......

That would be a lot better......

quote:

bluedog
quote:
Do notice, he said the belly button and not the hips....

Deemax
quote:
Do you have experience turning one without the other?

____________________________________________________

Well, I saw this belly dancer once........She could do it......

quote:

I'm running out of questions.

You can always use this one again...

"Bluedog

Going back to the McGuire/Vladi clips.....they each show a different way of "using" the hips in their swing."

It made no sense the first time, perhaps it will get better with age.....

quote:

Opening the hips too early or too slowly destroys all of that.

PGStaff, how do you explain the fact that some MLB hitters open their hips earlier than others??

And, rotating into footplant must really drive you crazy???

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

bluedog
quote:
Do notice, he said the belly button and not the hips....

Deemax
quote:
Do you have experience turning one without the other?

____________________________________________________

Well, I saw this belly dancer once........She could do it......

Why don't you answer the man's question?

You didn't like my answer?????......

BD,

Sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Could we see some examples?

There can be many reasons why one hitter would open his hips earlier than another. Or even why the same hitter would open his hips earlier on one pitch than another.

Some of those reasons would include...

Being fooled by the pitch
The location of the pitch
Having slower hips
The type of hitter each is
The type of stride

Rotating into footplant doesn't really drive me crazy. I just prefer not rotating into footplant. What do the no stride guys do?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

I'm running out of questions.

You can always use this one again...

"Bluedog
going back to the McGuire/Vladi clips.....they each show a different way of "using" the hips in their swing."

It made no sense the first time, perhaps it will get better with age.....

Not quite sure why I deserved that. Just trying to understand what it is you're seeing.

Also, I didn't say I was out of questions, I said I almost was. I'll try another one.

Would you be referring to the "stretch/unstretch" of the muscles in the middle/center?

By the way, if any of us ever guess it right, will you tell us?

zzzzzzzzzzzz.... BullDog really fancies himself the teacher around here and thinks he does us all a great service by forcing us to try to answer his questions (as if only HIS questions are the "right" ones to be considering?).

I have an idea... why doesn't BullDog post a clip and explain what he sees in it, how he thinks it happens, and most importantly, how he thinks we should teach hitters to do it? And post some clips of HIS hitters having success doing his way?

Naah... much easier and safer to sit back and take jabs at everyone else.

Sandy, when I don't post for awhile, the hitting threads cease........

Maybe you can keep 'em going?????

BlueDog,

I have noticed that! The same thing held true for Richard... is Richard "chameleon"? I really got to liking Richard. Especially after he put that videa clip of himself up.

While I and others might not agree with everything you say... I do appreciate the way you guys get things going. Your passion for this subject is very impressive. I try to read everything you post. It leads to some good discussion and some good laughs at times.

Too bad, Richard kept getting kicked off the site. He was very smart, very irritating and a riot!

Do you think no one would read what you SAID if you stopped asking QUESTIONS? Maybe people DO enjoy your CONTENT, and might still be interested, even if you shed your tone? Hmmm...

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
... Rotating into footplant doesn't really drive me crazy. I just prefer not rotating into footplant. What do the no stride guys do?

As far as no-striders, I like David Wright's swing. (I consider him a no-strider.) Take a look at how he drops the front heel with rotation. This is just a sample of one. I would need to review my clips to see if any other no-striders are doing it.

PGStaff and Sandy, how 'bout you two starting some threads and keeping a discussion going??

I'll stay out of em.....All I do is make people think, anyway.....I don't even know what I believe....

Heck, a thread just for people who are tired of me would be a start.....Have at it!!

I'm more of a reader.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
BlueDog,

I have noticed that! The same thing held true for Richard... is Richard "chameleon"? I really got to liking Richard. Especially after he put that videa clip of himself up.

While I and others might not agree with everything you say... I do appreciate the way you guys get things going. Your passion for this subject is very impressive. I try to read everything you post. It leads to some good discussion and some good laughs at times.

Too bad, Richard kept getting kicked off the site. He was very smart, very irritating and a riot!

PG,

Agree with you on the RShard thing. I didnt get along with him at all the first year or so. In fact - I got along with him terribly LOL.

But when he posted that video clip of himself up there - I changed my opinion alot. Took alot of guts to show that middle aged pitching form. LOL

Looked pretty good for an old man too.

He was a spunky cat IMO.

Try putting the bat behind your back.
Hook your elbow's over the knob and barrel.
Make sure the bat barrel sticks out as far as possible.
Now try to hit the ball off a High TEE or Soft Toss.
When you make solid contact, I mean putting a Drive on the Ball.
Then your Belly Button, Hips, Core, Legs, Shoulder's and everyother part of your body is Turning with Power to the Ball??
EH

its,

Actually the one I was referring to... He was showing how to catch and throw. Did he also do one where he was pitching?

Anyway, your right, that took some balls to post that clip. And your right he looked fairly athletic for an over weight, middle aged, pool player!

I think he might still be lurking around! I sure got some good laughs when you and him or other people and him would go after each other. That was some great entertainment, right here on the HSBBWeb.

Then seeing him get booted and reappear the next day as someone new... That was great!

Didn't anyone else get a kick out of that stuff?

PG - LOL - I have alot of energy - but he finally wore me out.

And yes - you are right - he was demonstrating the throw to second as a catcher. My bad.

I did my best to make up with him - but he still cyber spanked me every chance he got. LOL

He was a spunky funky cat IMO - and I thought he did a pretty darn good job of explaining a good swing too.

quote:

and I thought he did a pretty darn good job of explaining a good swing too.

It seems you haven't kept up, lately.......He has totally changed his thinking on the swing.....Even has a website discussing his "new" theory....Not at all what he explained to you and others on here....

The swing theory you got from him was PCR.....He has since renounced PCR and, now, believes PCR is too slow in getting the bat around to the ball.....His "new" theory has to do with a "second engine" which includes the arms and hands.....

For a fee, he will allow you to join his website.....

Bluedog,

What he is teaching now has nothing to do with the fact that I enjoyed his posts in the past.

Nothing at all.

And I didnt get anything from him.

I just enjoyed many of his posts.

quote:

and I thought he did a pretty darn good job of explaining a good swing too.

Well, if someone calls this "didn't get anything"...........

Yeah - whatever.

Bluedog, are your right in your assertion that his is now a pay site? I didn't know that. Of course, I can't get on there anyway so it doesn't matter. Something in his title or front page or url or... doesn't allow me access due to our security provider. See you learn something new everyday. (Most importantly I learned today that tomorrow it's going to be 50+ degrees and so, we're going out and really playing some ball.)

Coach, Teacherman advertises his site as a pay site.....Yet, he, also says on his website that his information is free to parents.....He even advertises sending out a newsletter by e-mail....

So, it seems rather confusing......Looks like Shep is a member.....Maybe he can tell us what is going on over there....

Bluedog, very interesting. I seem to recall somewhere on the web a post that contained a link and somehow I could view it on his site. However, I couldn't do anything else and so... That is why I wondered about the pay. One day maybe you and I'll go into business and create our own pay for view site. I can see it now BluedogandButler Hitting.com SOUNDS LIKE A WINNER!!!

Take care!

Try this, Coach.....

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8

Wow, I guess that is a whole new site. It came up. Thanks! Now about the title for our site, BluedogandButler or ButlerandBluedog? Guess we'll have to work on that.

Concerning the hips and perhaps your point with this thread. We've been doing a lot of work with activating the core (load) on pitcher movement. A type of "tilt and re-tilt" it really seems to help on that inside fastball. I think we can/do find all kinds of "evidence" in video from MLB players. Still, we need to accept all of that as only a piece of a bigger puzzle. You have to make all of the pieces fit in sequence in order to have an efficient swing.

Take care!

ACoachandaDogHitting.com......

Try this page, Coach...

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/whyUs.html

Coach, my whole point is to understand what SHOULD make the hips open.....You understand this, others don't...

If a hitter merely turns the hips, and he certainly can do so, he is not activating the muscles in the center.....

The hips must open because the muscles in the center are activating....The muscles in the center must do the work....

The twist is in the center and is activated in the center....

The hips and the shoulders cannot get this done effectively, IMO....

Now, when I showed video clips of the center muscles activating and getting it done in two MLB hitters, well, you know the rest......

I intentionally left out the legs and would have left out the shouders if I could have.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Coach, my whole point is to understand what SHOULD make the hips open.....You understand this, others don't...

If a hitter merely turns the hips, and he certainly can do so, he is not activating the muscles in the center.....

The hips must open because the muscles in the center are activating....The muscles in the center must do the work....

We are in complete agreement! When a player gets this right, they will notice it immediately.

Keep searching.

Grandpa said,"the more things change, the more they stay the same".

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Keep searching.

LOL

Is this a treasure hunt - or a Baseball hitting forum?

Knucklehead. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Coach, my whole point is to understand what SHOULD make the hips open.....You understand this, others don't...

If a hitter merely turns the hips, and he certainly can do so, he is not activating the muscles in the center.....

The hips must open because the muscles in the center are activating....The muscles in the center must do the work....

Serious, non-confrontational question:
And HOW does one learn to do this? These endless debates as to WHAT MLB hitters do vs. amateurs are observatory in nature. Please be specific (no riddles) and TELL us how you teach players to activate the "right" muscles to turn the hips, and almost as importantly, how you monitor their progress in this goal (seeing you can't really see on video which muscles are firing when)?

Another non-confrontational question…

When swinging a bat or an axe is it possible to turn the hips quickly without utilizing the core muscles automatically? Don’t the great hitters use these muscles without thinking about it? Just turning the hips without any emphasis on creating power and quickness would result in a very weak swing, wouldn't it?

Just my meager opinion, but it seems to me that all of this discussion about hips, center, and hands has more to do with timing than anything. One without the other is useless. Swing with the hips as PG stated and you will drag the bat. Rotate the center without letting the hands and hips go with it will not allow for good rotation and will produce weak results. We can break the swing down 8 million ways but when I see a hitter wait long and swing with quickness with good rotation...most things fall into place. Timing in my opinion is the essential ingredient that brings all these areas together, without it no swing (perfect or imperfect will produce anything.)

quote:

Swing with the hips as PG stated and you will drag the bat.

coach, Did I say that somewhere? Your opinion is valuable IMO

PG

quote:

Just turning the hips without any emphasis on creating power and quickness would result in a very weak swing, wouldn't it?

Thats why I like the bat behind the back drill, with the arms hooked over the bat.
When you turn on the ball to drive it.
You can feel the power in your core when you make solid power contact.
That's how it should feel when you swing normally.
I also believe in timing, Also try to hit middle to inside of baseball. Dont hook the ball. Drive it.
EH

quote:

Just turning the hips without any emphasis on creating power and quickness would result in a very weak swing, wouldn't it?

My apologies if I misinterpreted PG.

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
Thats why I like the bat behind the back drill, with the arms hooked over the bat.

The swing in no way resembles the feeling one gets while swinging with the bat behind the back.

The bat is swung in a completely different plane.

I'm not talking about the swing, I'm talking about the core,
And yes it does feel the same if done properly?
It let's you know how to use your core rather than your arms.
Are should I say let's you feel how much power you can create out of your core if you try that drill.
It has nothing to do with proper swing mechanics.
Just a drill for younger players to feel how much power comes from the core and not the arms.
Try it before you knock it?
EH

Nope.

Busy work.

Me to.
Very busy?
Yep.

Chameleon is correct....The bat behind the back drill doesn't resemble the swing in any way.....

The swing is a completely different feeling.....

quote:

It let's you know how to use your core rather than your arms.

TheEH, there is some arm action involved that needs to be understood.....The arms need to work properly, too.....

True,

I'm saying that the feeling you get from the core when you use this drill. If done properly.
Allow's you to feel the power that can be generated from the core.
It has nothing to do with proper swing mechanic's.
It allow's a young player to feel that power of the core.
Young hitter's try to use to much arm and not enough core.
This allows them to feel the power that can be created from the core.

When you get to that point, Then the batter can work on bat swing and the whip of the bat in the proper plane.
And of course Timing.

Just a drill nothing else.
EH

Mike-

I think in the high percentage of cases, kids learn to do this (**** hips, coil body) in the overhand throw then carryover the ability to **** the hips and coil the body to hitting.

In throwing you have set shoulder/torso tilt that you create and maintain.

In hitting, there is a different timing of weight shift synch and the need to adjust shoulder tilt on fly, but the loading and coiling are very similar between throwing and swinging.

I like the N***** throwing model plus a little tweaking from Hodge and Wolforth.

In N**** throwing terms, "beachball" is the hip **** and "stepover" is the rubberbandwinding/rotation into toe touch where the right muscles are synched and activated which permits coiling the torso and projecting the pelvis the mlb way.

in previous post:

**** hips = c-o-c-k hips.

gotta love those **** controls.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
in previous post:

**** hips = c-o-c-k hips.

gotta love those **** controls.

You can't even say s-o-c-c-e-r.

quote:

s-o-c-c-e-r?

I hardly know her

I have broken down hundreds of films on various types of hitters at every level ranging from 9 yrs old to pro. After doing this we have categorized hitters into the following:

1) Rotational
2) Linear
3) Hybrid

Each type of hack brings a different set of circumstances. That being said, arguments about heel plant, hip rotation, etc... must be classified for understanding (not agreement) by differing opinions.

I believe that we teach more of a rotational style but we definitely have more kids turn out to be hybrids due to some of our "loading" and "finish" philosophy. According to what we teach, its all about the hips and shoulders (the block) being on time. the focus goes to the lower half as to keep the upper half as relaxed and whiplike as possible. we feel like if a kid cannot get his lower half in a "strong" hitting position that it is near impossible, outside of the stars lining up just right on a given pitch, for you upper half to be in a good "launch" position. The "core" muscles must be dependent on each other. one without the other is a a streaky to lucky hitter at best!

What I can't believe is that it took till I think page five of this post before anyone even mentioned pitch locations effect on the hip rotation. PG Staff hit all the nails right on the head. And altough I am not in the same league as most of you guys the way I see it no hips no power. Seems like power has become a dirty word in lots of hitting circles anyway. Oh and just a question what should the hips be doing on the low outside fastball?

Jimwis,

Nothing different than any other location with regards to the hips imo. Just hit the pitch where its thrown, in this case right side of the field.

EH,

The exercise you recommended by placing the bat behind your arms, reach (not step) with their front foot and learn how to turn with balance is an excellent exercise when teaching rotational hitting.

You nor I am saying it 100% replicates the swing but it does provide the hitter with what it feels like to actually be balanced throughout the swing movement. It makes it easy to show them how to remain athletic and to reach to a bent front knee and then for them to feel the correct balance and movement as their front leg straightens as they rotate their core.

quote:

......but it does provide the hitter with what it feels like to actually be balanced throughout the swing movement.

SBK, balance in the swing is misunderstood....And, IMO, you misunderstand it, also.....

quote:

.....reach (not step) with their front foot.....

Babe Ruth didn't reach.....He stepped bigtime!!....So did Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron and the rest, too!!

I have to say, also, that it ain't just about rotation......It's about loading and unloading properly......

You don't just stand there and rotate!!

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......

Post load and 70% of everything else in the swing comes through perfect. Your hips lead no matter who you watch

Do you know how the hips lead??

When do the hips begin to open in the swing??

Bluedog,

So let's get this straight. You read a post and figured out I don't understand balance. The exercise EH recommends is no good because you say so, and you preach that it's not just about rotating, you have to load..... Now that's profound.

In addition you have a problem with my cue about a htter moving their lead foot when I tell them to "reach" because Ruth, Williams and Aaron "step big time. Certaily you must know that some hitters walk their hands back like the aforementioned while some of us prefer to start our hands further back, "reach" with the lead foot and keep our body from going forward as much as others... ala Bonds.

I could just see you working with hitters and tell them to... "step big time". I prefer not to.

Bluedog, you often have a clue. This isn't one of those times.

Also, don't assume always someone doesn't understand because they didn't explain it or even mentioned it in a post. Many of us have neither the time nor the interest in listing every detail, thought or principle in every post.

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/dunn_adam1.mpeg

Practically all amateur players would feel like they are not balanced if they swung like Dunn in the above clip....The reason is, by practicing drills like yall say, teaches them that Dunn's swing is not balanced.....

Balance in the swing has to do with the hands and arms reaching sometimes like in the Dunn clip.....You don't balance to the ground to put that great of a swing on that pitch!!

quote:

Do you know how the hips lead??

When do the hips begin to open in the swing??

After the hips have loaded, they begin a forward movement. At the same time the load is still continuing upward in the body. As the front shoulder reaches it's load, and the hands have c o c k e d , tilting the barrel forward, the hips begin to uncoil. In most instances, the hip's turn will begin somewhere between toe touch and heel plant. From the hips coiling, and moving forward, while the upper body rotates rearward, to the unloading of the hips in a continuous move which creates elastic energy of the core allowing the upper body to rotate with power.

Kind of wordy, but hopefully, that makes sense.

It does!!

thank you. Trying to put it into words was kind of .

Bluedog,

Adam Dunn doesn't fit in with the players you named earlier who "step bigtime". He is in the group that loads their hands further back initially and has little forward body movement and I mentioned I prefer.

He appears to be a no strider but if he took a step, he would be a player who would appreciate my cue of "reach" with the lead foot and certainly not "stride bigtime" as you brought up.

You lose me and probably others when you use this clip as an example why you shouldn't use the exercise EH and some of the rest of us'all use.

As far as the Adam Dunn clip, he appears to be "fooled" and quite early on the swing. He is certainly reaching and pulling a ball that many hitters would prefer to do something else with. Usually when a hitter, including Adam, is this "off balance" on a swing, the results are not as good.

The best hitters have more margin for error through their technique and strength. The bottom line is that some of us instructors have found the exercise that EH mentioned useful for teaching balance, loading, reaching your lead foot, landing softly staying back, keeping your arms from reaching, landing on a bent lead knee athletically, and other pieces of a major league swing.

For the benefit of readers, the exercise is simply to place the bat behind your back and hold it with both elbows.

It doesn't much matter what the exercise or drill is, if a person doesn't know how to use it or doesn't understand how to teach a big league swing, it's probably not going to improve the hitter like it could anyway.

I have seen that clip of Dunn used many times to explain things. I would use it to show my kids why he has a low lifetime average and a ton of stike-outs. If he learns to hit that pitch the other way, then look-out. Until then he has great power, but gets himself out WAY too often.

quote:

Usually when a hitter, including Adam, is this "off balance" on a swing, the results are not as good.

SBK, just what I said before....You don't understand balance as it pertains to a high level swing........

The Dunn clip is a lesson in what balance in the swing should look like!!

Hsballcoach, to use a MLB swing as an example of what not to do, well,..........

I just don't view a lifetime .246 hitter who averages nearly 170 strikeouts per year as the ideal swing for kids to emulate. Not every major league swing is a great one. Would Dunn be in the bigs with those numbers if he were not very strong and could hit the long ball? Probably not. I would like my kids to study the guys with high averages and good pop in their bat.

And now the rule according to Bluedog is you can't cite any major league hitter's swings as something you shouldn't do because they must do everything right all the time.

Hsballcoach is right on when he uses the Dunn clip as perhaps the reason he has a low batting average and strikes out nearly 1 out of 3 times.

I'll grant you that Mr. Dunn is exhibiting great balance in being able to be out front and pull an outside breaking ball over the fence without falling on his face. I'd suggest that a hitter be in a more athletic position, hit the ball further back and drive the ball to the opposite field. This approach would lead to less strikouts, a better average and probably better power numbers.

Would you concur Bluedog or do you advocate "stepping bigtime" and "reaching your arms out to maintain balance" and pulling the off speed pitch on the outside?

OK here I go don,t blow me up I am fifty and refuse to be lectured any more.

But isn't it important that the hips stay closed a little longer on the low outside fastball. And open a little quicker on the inside fastball. Pretty basic stuff...... but to say the hips are the same no mater what the pitch is just dosen,t seem true.
Please without being condisending if I am missing something let me know.
I watch my son hit with good power to all fields using this approach. I know even good hitters can sometimes get fooled by some good pitches. But using this approach even when fooled if the hands stay back you can often still put a quality swing on the ball. I do believe that thinking hard line drive up the middle and showing the pitcher your belt buckle will let pitch location dictate where the ball is hit. But in some must make contact situations like hit and run you have to be willing to let the ball get deeper or be a little quicker and that does create diffrent situations for the hips.

But like I said I am fifty now and CRS has truly set in.

The location of the pitch and the resulting timing of the hip movement does not change "what" the hips do, just "when" it does it.

The hips will be in a different place, relative to the plate, at contact (further into rotation on inside pitch, earlier in the rotation on outside pitch, but the hip rotation itself does not change).

Do the angles of the hips, hands and barrel differ on inside/outside pitches?

Or, if you stand in front of mirror, and position yourself in the position at point of contact with the ball, just adjust shoulder tilt, posture and degree of rotation without changing anything else, and you will see the relationship of hips/hands/barrel does not need to change (yet, they are different relative to the plate) to hit any pitch.

Noreast,I quess we do agree....
I don't know how many different ways of hip rotation there can be. But I think this topic went a long time without adressing quicker,slower, deeper, out front,inside,outside etc.
I think the word timing sums up a lot of those things. I think we all should agree that hip rotation is pivotal (LOL) when it comes to hitting.

Like Kevin Costner said in the movie Tin Cup (in regards to hitting a golf ball) It is like a symphony all coming together at once

At least the golf ball insn't coming at you at 90+ mph. With some dirty last minute tail.
Which could open up a whole new thread..... Do you think there are more bad golfers or more bad hitters out there??????

Poor hitting has taken the lead as a result of the spread of PCR.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Poor hitting has taken the lead as a result of the spread of PCR.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Poor hitting has taken the lead as a result of the spread of PCR.

poor core rotation
posterior chain rrrrrrrr?
portly cherub runner

ok, I'm racking my brain here. What's PCR?

posture, connection, rotation.

former believer's of PCR have rethought it and moved on to to "second engine", and don't think the two can mutually exist.

quote:

Would Dunn be in the bigs with those numbers if he were not very strong and could hit the long ball?

The fact that he swings like he does is exactly the reason why he can, and does, hit the long ball....

And, just for kicks......The long ball is what wins most MLB games!!

The PCR allows you to stay balanced and load/unload properly in a position to make last moment adjustment on the fly while maintaining core power until the right point in time. The second engine delivers the barrel to the ball with high bat speed.

Chameleon, are you saying poor posture and disconnect are positive? Or, are you saying PCR is over-emaphasized at the diminshed emphasis of something else? If so, what?

can pcr help you adjust on the fly?please explain

part of the whole process of connection is loading and unloading properly to transfer the energy from core to barrel.

Someone who is disconnected has no chance of properly rotating the barrel to the ball. If, say, he has barred his front arm or had early extenstion to arms, how does he recover to position where he can make adjustment on the fly when he is already out of position?

Part of the process also is rotating the hips before the shoulders. If a hitter's rotation begins at the shoulders ("shoulders down" swing), they have no chance to properly rotate the barrel to the ball, or adjust to ball with movement. With a "shoulder down" swing, the shoulders have turned much earlier (relative to distance the ball has travelled) than someone who is properly unloading. IOW, they have commited their barrel path earlier.

I'm willing to understand if you have a counterpoint. How does PCR hurt a hitter?

If they do...you're too late and you've lost bat speed! Big muscles move small muscles!

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
The hips turn as a consequence of something else, IMO......