Hit and Run

I agree totally for a left handed hitter. I would say that if you didn't take that outside pitch through the hole at SS, you could easily hit a ball back up the middle right where you were trying to avoid, especially on a pitch that was tailing away. A right hander, IMO, doesn't have quite the same option. That is why I think their best option in that situation is to get further away from the plate when given that sign.

This is a good topic for discussion. There are various beliefs as to how a hit and run should be executed. For us we want to hit a hard liner or ground ball to the right side. Our goal is not just to move the runner over (we feel we can do that with a steal or bunt.) We are looking to get the runner to third. Our goal is to get the ball through the infield and to the outfielder that has the longest throw in order to make the play at third.

quote:

Originally posted by hsballcoach:
This is a good topic for discussion. There are various beliefs as to how a hit and run should be executed. For us we want to hit a hard liner or ground ball to the right side. Our goal is not just to move the runner over (we feel we can do that with a steal or bunt.) We are looking to get the runner to third. Our goal is to get the ball through the infield and to the outfielder that has the longest throw in order to make the play at third.

I agree that the goal should be to get the runner to third. Like you say, the steal or bunt would get them to second. I would think you would be doing this with someone with speed, so I wouldn't think it would matter much which outfielder got the ball unless they were cheating in and the runner and hitter should be aware of those things.

Beemax,

Do you use your “two strike” approach on hit and runs?

THop

hsballcoach,

I think you make a good point that the goal is to get the runner to third and to hit to to the rightfielder. I do feel, though, that if a lefty hits a ball where the shortstop vacated from, the runner will reach third anyway.

THop,

I choke up a little on hit and runs, a la my two strike approach, but my mental approach is different. With two I am looking fastball away. On a hit and run I am "dumb it down" as I call it by clearing my head and just reacting to whatever is thrown. The guesswork is somewhat out of the window because you have to swing. So in short, no, I do not use my two strike approach with a hit and run.

Personally, I enjoy hit and runs because like I said, it takes the guesswork out. Although there is a goal that needs to be executed in the hitter's mind, you get a chance to swing no matter where the pitch is (unless it's a pitchout or a ball in the dirt).

Good topic...I manage in the Tiger organization and when I put on the hit and run sign, I don't want my hitters to be thinking about anything but swinging. I want them to take a solid aggressive swing at the ball. Gentlemen, it is too hard to try and hit the ball here or there. It is hard enough to make solid contact at times. When I am putting on the sign, I am betting the pitcher is going to throw a fastball, and I don't want my hitter to give his at bat away. If I did, I would have him bunt. So I want him swinging. Ideally, I would love to see a double in the gap and RBI. I had a player last year that hit 2 HR's on hit and runs. So...that is my opinion...I am not saying that there is a right way or a wrong way, just my way. I hope it helps.

AB

Baseball Pros

quote:

Originally posted by bubandbran:
Good topic...I manage in the Tiger organization and when I put on the hit and run sign, I don't want my hitters to be thinking about anything but swinging. I want them to take a solid aggressive swing at the ball. Gentlemen, it is too hard to try and hit the ball here or there. It is hard enough to make solid contact at times. When I am putting on the sign, I am betting the pitcher is going to throw a fastball, and I don't want my hitter to give his at bat away. If I did, I would have him bunt. So I want him swinging. Ideally, I would love to see a double in the gap and RBI. I had a player last year that hit 2 HR's on hit and runs. So...that is my opinion...I am not saying that there is a right way or a wrong way, just my way. I hope it helps.

AB

Baseball Pros

Hmmmmm! So, Coaches do decide how a hitter approaches certain game situations, huh? Just as I expected!

I cannot decide how a player approaches certain game situations....I can only suggest how I would like them to approach it. I finished playing professional baseball in 2005 and was taught that hit and run approach as a player in 2004 by my manager who played 14 years in the big leagues. The approach he taught me helped me tremendously because it took the pressure off my shoulders. He wanted me to let it go, all I had to do was swing. It made it easier for me to execute the hit and run. As coaches, we should be doing things for the benefit of the players and the game of baseball. I do not try to control players as I did not like being controlled as a player. I try and give suggestions that I think (because of my experience) will help get them to the big leagues. Plain and simple. And, I didn't say that was the right way, I just said it was my way.

AB
Baseball Pros

bubandbran,

Would you say that you teach the particular skill (hit and run, hit behind 2b runner, sac bunt etc) in cookie cutter fashion, but allow each player the freedom to perform most of the mechanical details in his own way?

THop

I teach players how to play in the big leagues. The "cookie cutter" I use is what works in major league baseball. As long as the player gets the job done, the mechanical details are irrelevant. If the player is not getting the job done, then we have to address mechanics. And when we do, we try and teach them the best we know how with the knowledge that has been given to us. Longtime Texas Ranger, Toby Harrah is our hitting cordinator, and he gives our hitters a ton of freedom, but at the end of the day, there are absolutes of hitting that need to be followed.

I do not disagree with bu's approach at all. I think the best result you can get is a shot in the gap. I do however like to see the ball hit to the right side. If the pitch is inside, then you have to make an adjustment and maybe take the ball up the middle. I do not want a hitter just slapping it to the right side. Beemax, I like my lefties to pull the ball. I feel that if you hit a shot at the left fielder they will have a short throw with the ball arriving quickly to make the play at third. If you hit a ground ball through the short-stop the fielder will be moving in and have all his momentum going with the throw and will make the play at third an out or too close for my comfort. I like to see the center fielder or right fielder trying to make the play. I also agree with bu that the play works best when you expect a fast ball. If you get a curve you may get the pop-up or line-out by reaching that can really take you out of an inning. But..that is what is fun about baseball.

Hit and run is a gamble/percentage play and one that IMO is a low percentage play. You usually want the right situation and the right players involved. Sometimes we would put the H&R on just to help someone in a slump get the thought process out of the way and swing.

While you know what the ideal spot to hit the ball might be, (through the hole vacated by player covering bag) a hitter almost always has to swing at the pitch, so sometimes placement goes out the window and you just have to hit the ball. If the ball is hit in the air and caught, you lost that gamble. All too often it takes the bat out of his hand and can lead to a missed swing and easy Caught Stealing . I think the hit and run is a low percentage play in most cases. Others might disagree, but I would not want to put one of my better hitters in that position very often.

Over all, in my experience, the only time a hit and run is a good percentage play is when the hitter has 3 balls and it’s used to stay out of the DP. In that case the hitter does not have to chase a pitch. Sometimes, as mentioned, it can actually help a hitter (mentally).

At the level we now follow the closest, I believe the hit and run is used for the purpose of making the coaches look smart rather than anything to do with playing the percentages. While there is a place for everything, I’d bet that budandbran and beemax, don’t really experience or use the hit and run all that often. I will agree that when it works it does look good. Just too many disadvantages IMO. Biggest disadvantage being the hitter must swing at pitches he would normally not swing at and become an easy out without advancing the runner at all and possibly hitting into a DP.

My approach to the hit and run. There are many reasons to put the hit and run on. Just one of them is to create a vacated hole in order to create a 1st and third situation. I like to use the hit and run to jump start the offense. The game has become static and I want to kick it into another gear. Or I have a hitter at the plate that has been thinking too much and I want to take the thought process out of his hands and force him to become aggressive at the plate. I teach our guys to turn and mash anything on the inside part of the plate regardless of hit and run or not. Trying to go backside with a pitch in on the hands is not a good approach. If the pitcher throws inside turn on it. More often than not you are going to be fine. With a pitch middle away that is what you hope you get. Go the other way and you have more area to have success with the vacated hole. What you do not want to do is pull pitches that are middle away. They are giving you want you want so execute it. Our runners are taught on the hit and run to think 3b on contact at or behind you. You are coming to third base unless we stop you. Looking to see if were bringing you or not can be the difference in making it or not. More balls are mashed in the gaps or down the lines on a hit and run than are hit in the vacated hole by the mif covering the bag. I do believe that when a hitter is given the hit and run he has much more focus on making sure he hits the baseball. He knows that the runner is counting on him and the coach as well. He is not concerned with ball or strike or in or out he is just concentrating on protecting the runner. It is one reason you do not see alot of swing and miss on hit and run plays. At least this has been my experience with our players. Personally I like it when they try to come in on hit and runs and stay away from going away to protect the open hole. Alot of times these end up being mashed balls into gaps or down lines and open up a big inning. But I have never taught a kid to try and take a baseball in on his hands backside. That is a disaster waiting to happen. Pop up , weak swing approach etc. Just hit the baseball hard where it is pitched with the exception of going back up the middle. Backside gap , backside , middle away - turn on the inside pitch. jmo

Excellent post coach May!
PG guy...Why in the world would you ever hit and run when the hitter has 3 balls? Why would you want him to swing at ball 4? Surely, you mean, run and hit. Putting the runner in motion so to stay out of the double play. For the record, I use hit and runs all the time to put pressure on the defense. I am not trying to look smart, I am trying to win games. If I feel the pitcher has good command and will throw a fastball, and if I feel my hitter has a good chance of putting it in play, I will put it on. I have coached high school level teams in the fall, and used the same play. Keep in mind, I want my hitter to take a solid aggressive swing and try and drive the ball. If he misses and the guy gets thrown out, that is my fault not his.

I probaly use it about four or five times in an entire HS season. Which is around 30 games. I like the 3-1 hit and run but only if the pitcher has shown the ability to throw a strike when he has to. I too believe that it is a low percentage play. To me its more of a gut feeling that you get at a particular time in a certain game. I want the right guy up at the plate that I trust to get it done. Or like I posted earlier I have a guy that needs to be put in that situation. The game situation , the quality of the opponent etc will dictate alot.

budandbran guy,

I guess I would lose that bet about how often you use the hit and run.

Your right, guess I meant just to run (not necessarily run and hit) to stay out of the DP. The whole purpose being the hitter does not have to swing at ball 4. I or I would imagine, no one would want him swinging at ball 4.

Must ask with all respect… Why do you hit and run “all the time”? I understand it puts pressure on the defense, but only when it works. IMO it takes the bat out of the hitters hands just as often as it works. Do you use it with your best hitters at the plate?

I guess if I would have experienced a lot of success with the hit and run, I would have used it more too. However, we had great success trying to win and winning games without using it very often at the college level. We did lead the country in SBs though. Do they use the hit and run a lot in the Major Leagues?

Sorry but IMO the hit and run is a low percentage play in most cases. The thing I like the best about it is that it is an aggressive play. There are definitely times where it might be an advantage. Not saying it is never a good thing, I just would never use it “a lot”. Those who do use it successfully and win games because of it at any level, I salute.

Here is a question to budandbran and beemax or any other current or former professional player who might post here. In what order of importance or frequency are the following offensive situations used?

1. Hit
2. Bunt
3. Steal
4. Runner goes on 3 ball count to stay out of DP
5. Hit and Run

I enjoy the way the thought process is moving here. I would be interested to hear why some of you use the H&R. We use it for a few reasons. 1. We may have a runner that has good but not great speed. I want to offer him some protection while trying to get him to third. If the hitter misses, it gives him a little time to make it to second with more protection. If we have a guy with great speed, I would rather take my chance with a straight steal. I have also used it with players that need to be aggressive at the plate and have a tendency to watch too many good ones go by. If it is a count where I suspect a fastball I may use it to help our hitter turn loose. As far as percentages, it depends on how it is used. I would say off-hand we successfully get the runner to second (this means either the hitter hit the ball or our runner was safe on the steal..probably 90% of the time.) Does it make me look smart? I don't care one way or the other, but I know it has put a ton of pressure on the teams we play. If we get a runner on, something is going to happen, a steal, h & R, bunt, or maybe you are so busy thinking about it that you groove one and we pounce on it. At least, that is our goal.

Personally, I like 2 out hit and runs on 1-0 or 2-0 counts. Pitchers have a tendancy to grove pitches when they get behind with a runner at 1st and 2 outs, at least, that has been my experience. If you have speed on 1st and a decent hitter at the plate, even if he misses the pitch you may steal the base. If you don't, you still lead the next inning off with a good hitter. If he does hit a gap, you scored a run on a play where normally you would need at least one more hit to score. JMO.

I kind of thought Earl Weaver was a great and very successful Major League manager. He had often said he didn’t believe in the hit and run and he didn’t use it!

Interesting link regarding percentages…
Hit an run strategy

Earl Weaver believed in the three run homer. As do I. Managing all depends on your players. IF you are loaded with power, there is no need for it. If you have a club with speed and contact hitters, then it is a valuable resource. The original quesiton or comment on this thread was how it was taught, and I posted how I teach it. Take it or leave it. As far as signs go, a hitter always has the hit sign, unless it is 3-0. I don't like to bunt, sot hat would be last, 3 ball count is used a lot, then hit and run and steal would be even. I hope that helps.

Not as big of a fan of the Hit and Run as I am of the Run and Hit. Naturally, we're talking HS level and so, we are running (stealing) and we state that the hitter will not take a ball on the outside portion of the plate. We do so for both right and left handed hitters. Agreeing with the previous argument that he 6 hole is there with a left handed hitter since the ss is covering 2nd. The hitter doesn't have to hit if the pitch is not in the location that they are looking. Of course we love to steal anyway and so, our teams have always been geared for speed. Just a thought!

In HS at least at mine you have to manage to the strengths of your team from year to year. The last three or four years we have been a power team. The last two years we have hit 67 hr's. Not much team speed but alot of power. In years previous to the guys we have now we were a 7 or 8 hr a year type of team. We had some speed and we relied on moving runners , stealing basically small balling people. I think it all depends on your personel and what they do best.

BTW, that link I posted… Not sure I understand the numbers or percentages they used. Don’t think anyone has any true statistics regarding success or even failure of an attempted hit and run.

Here is my thinking… The typical goal of a RHH on the hit and run is to end up with runners at 1st and 3rd with a base hit to RF.

I do believe the hit and run does “usually” put the hitter at a disadvantage because he is in a position where he needs to swing and make contact (chase pitches). In most cases he will be a better more productive hitter without having to protect the runner or swinging at pitches out of the zone. It also puts the runner in a somewhat negative position, especially when the pitch is missed or the ball is not clearly on the ground.

If success to a RHH on the hit and run is to get a base hit to RF and end up with 1st and 3rd… You also end up 1st and 3rd with nearly any hit to RF with or without the hit and run. It is not necessarily automatic that the 2B covers the bag, but if he does as usual, the hit and run does open up that side of the infield. So to me that is the only real advantage… everything else pretty much being a disadvantage in most cases.

With a LHH at the plate, he already has the hole to RF with 1B holding the runner without the hit and run. Again a base hit to RF without the hit and run should end up 1st and 3rd. Basically the same thing that you hope to accomplish with the hit and run, but without the disadvantages.

Still IMO there are other good reasons to hit and run that several people have mentioned here. I’m not totally against it, just don’t like the percentages. But also don’t believe in playing by the book at all times either. I love small ball too.

On a somewhat related topic… It amazes me how often (even at a very high level) we see either shortstop or second baseman backing up the other behind 2B on a straight steal! This opens up the entire infield! BTW, the fake bunt and hit and run does usually open up both sides of the infield, with the corners coming in, but there aren’t many hitters who have mastered that.

What amazes me is the lack of bunt game you see at the HS level. I like to fake bunt early in the game just to see the reaction of the defense. One , it tells me what coverage they are in and how they do it , Two it tells me if they even react at all and how they react tells me if they are well coached in defending the bunt. Early in games we will take this approach with runner on first no outs. Drag attempt to see them react and if we get it down we are safe more times than not. Dont get the drag down we straight sac and look to take third if the 3b covers the bunt. We get a good indication of how well they are coached and how well they can handle it. Now later in the game we have a read on them if we have to go back to it. In HS a sac bunt is not an automatic out. Many times you can reach and many times errors are made. I really like the bunt in first and third situations when I know the other team is trying to defend a first and third steal attempt. Steal second and lay down a bunt. Alot of crazy things happen when the second baseman is charging for the cut play home and first charges and no one is covering first base. Ive seen this more than once.

Busting out the bunt game early gives you an excellent read on your opponent and how well they are coached. Now we are talking HS baseball here. I know this is off topic sorry. I just enjoy talking about strategy and the game.

Coach May,

I know this is getting off topic and with all respect to beemax who likes to stay on topic, but I just love the stuff you’re talking about. One of the best weapons in baseball can be the fake bunt on a straight steal. We used to practice and master it. Your son being a catcher may have experienced the perfect fake bunt with the barrel hiding the ball at the most critical time. Hell, it’s hard to catch the ball let alone get a good quick transfer. And it is something that everyone can master.

PG I love that play. It makes it very tough on the catcher. And then alot of times the inf is yelling bunt and never yell runner. The catcher many times never realizes the runner has ran until its too late. Plus he cant come out early and his focus is on catching the baseball or trying to. Its a great play.

I like the plays that I hate to have used against me. Those are the plays that I know if they bother me and my team they are going to bother my opponent. To me first and third bunts , fake bunt steals put pressure on the defense the pitcher and the other coaching staff. You can actually dictate to them what pitches they start calling.

It has always amazed me how little people come out of the gate and test other teams to see if they can handle it. You can really put the other team back on their heels doing it. When we were much faster and did not have alot of power we used to "fast break" the whole game. People hated to play us. I guess when Jeff and Pratt graduate this year we will have to go back to alot of that stuff. But its alot of fun to coach it. And a you know what to coach against it.

quote:

Your son being a catcher may have experienced the perfect fake bunt with the barrel hiding the ball at the most critical time.

I love this point and we love to use this play. We probably should use it a little more even. Pg, I am with you. I love talking about this stuff. Sorry if we are getting off topic, but it is fun to see how people run things just a little differently. The little twists are what make things intriguing.

quote:

I like the plays that I hate to have used against me.

So true..

From what I have seen the hit and run is used too often by HS coaches. Sometimes me thinks..WHY he do that?

Bunting and Fake bunts definatly puts pressure on the D.

Regarding Hit and Run,

I think it is very difficult for a player to change there swing in 4/10's of a second and move the ball with authority. A tip and trick is that a hitter doesn't have to change their swing, but just their placement within the batter's box. A hitter if they want to pull the ball they would move back in the box and close to plate. If they wanted to hit the ball to the opposite field then the hitter moves away from the plate and up in the box. In both instances a hitter just takes their natural swing.

Mechanics Doctor
Former College Hitting Coach
Former Professional Scout

Guys:
A suggestion when you want to start the runner with a 3 ball count is to use your steal signal & tell base runners that all 3 ball steals are to be treated like hit & runs( Can't get picked).This simplifies the process for your hitters. IMO if you use the run & hit sign instead in this situation the hitter swings at only fastball strikes or hanging breaking balls in the strike zone. You may want to consider running in 3-1 counts only with your better runners. Certainly this is hitter, runner,pitcher & situation dependent. I would like to see the ball hit in the gap & not on the ground in this situation. The exception is when you have a LHH who can aggressively attack the 4 hole.

The hit & run for me is best executed with no one out because my #1 goal is to hit the ball on the ground. I use the hit & run in place of the sacrifice bunt. Idealy you want the ball on the ground out of the middle. It's a bonus if you hit the ball through the infield. If the ball is in the dirt or if it's a pitch out, take the pitch. I expect our runner to be safe on dirt balls when he is on the move & I expect the runner to look in on his 1st step & be able to read a pitch out & return to 1st.
When hitters swing at balls in the dirt, they usually miss them & often fall across the plate & interfere with the catcher. they rarely make contact with pitch outs.

Lots more to this of course. There is no one way. Everyone has a little different take.

JW

JW, Welcome to HSBWS, looking forward to your contributions and advise!

quote:

Originally posted by jerry weinstein:
I use the hit & run in place of the sacrifice bunt. Idealy you want the ball on the ground out of the middle. It's a bonus if you hit the ball through the infield. If the ball is in the dirt or if it's a pitch out, take the pitch. I expect our runner to be safe on dirt balls when he is on the move & I expect the runner to look in on his 1st step & be able to read a pitch out & return to 1st.
When hitters swing at balls in the dirt, they usually miss them & often fall across the plate & interfere with the catcher. they rarely make contact with pitch outs.

Lots more to this of course. There is no one way. Everyone has a little different take.

JW

Jerry,

Don't know if you remember me, but this is Brett McMillan here. I couldn't agree more with what you say here. You obviously have more experience than I do, but I have played for teams that utilize the sac bunt and others that would rather hit and run. I loved playing for the latter, and felt that we created more offense with it.

There are times for the sac bunt, but when given the option, I love the hit and run because of three things.

1. You're goal is not to give up an out. (Like the sac bunt)

2. More can happen (base hit, 2b, etc.)

3. No guess work (just swing and try to hit it hard on the ground)

Just my opinion from a guy who has had to do both

Brett,
Good to see that the apple has not fallen far from the tree. Your dad was the best. We talked frequently. I was really counting on seeing a lot of him last summer in the Cal League.

Best of luck.

JW

I think these are all great answers, but coming from the pro ranks, when "hit and run" was given that meant simply hit the ball, because the runner is running assuming the batter is going to make contact.

My definition of "hit and run" is by putting this play on and making the defense shift creates more holes which increases the chances of getting hits, plus it keeps a team out of the double-play possibility.

Keep Hackin!

Jalal Leach
Baseball Mentoring Program
www.bmp18.com