Hittin & Pitchin

From where I sit, and I was not a pitcher, pitchers work every bit as hard as a position player---any kid who wants it works as hard as the next

What are Hoeflings- the rice barrel?

I met Gus Hoefling about 30 years ago, when he first came to the Phillies. Very interesting person. He could do some mind over matter stuff I've never seen anyone else do.*

*I bet Steve Carlton could do them, too, but he'd never show anyone.

Mine (2011) is predisposed to nothing until an offer he wants comes in. A two-way player, so after bullpens he moves over to position work and hitting. He still has a desire to be a two-way player in college….not likely, but you never know. He loves both, so as long as he can keep playing both ways he will. You are right however in that pitchers tend to be valued higher.....I was wondering my self what a Hoefling was...and I'm not talking about Tiger.

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Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:
What are Hoeflings- the rice barrel?

I met Gus Hoefling about 30 years ago, when he first came to the Phillies. Very interesting person. He could do some mind over matter stuff I've never seen anyone else do.*

*I bet Steve Carlton could do them, too, but he'd never show anyone.

It's a martial arts type stretching, flexibility, strenght/core workout that GH has marketed. No lifting but the kids do add ankle and wrist weights. As a group they do work on mental toughness during the workout. At home he does them rather than bands.... It's excellent.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
From where I sit, and I was not a pitcher, pitchers work every bit as hard as a position player---any kid who wants it works as hard as the next

Agreed... I think you have naturally gifted hitters and pitchers. For the other 98% I think an average pitcher will go farther than an average hitter.

I really don't know, but I think projectabilty applies more to pitchers in HS than hitters. IMO you need to rake in HS to get noticed.

My son is a pitcher and a position player. Add into the mix he's an infielder (high school) and an outfielder (showcase team). He's working his tail off. Which is he predisposed to? I'll know when a college coach tells him. His showcase coach said there are college coaches who will like he's enough of an athlete to play six positions well and pitch from a recruiting standpoint, then sort it out based on team needs.

If my memory serve me right Gus Hoefling was Steve Carlton's guru during his Hall of Fame years with the Phillies.

You keep working at different positions until someone tells you otherwise.
Once the seperation occurs, you would be surprised how much work pitchers have to do to keep their job. That includes tons of mental preparation as well.
I won't get into specifics as everyone prepares differently. Once you get to certain levels, it's a lot more than just a 10 minute adjustment.

In the college game and beyond I would imagine there's no shortage of things to do in preparation for game as a pitcher.

I think it's easier to learn how to throw a CB consistantly than it is to hit one consistantly

Baseball skills include fielding, throwing, running and hitting. In my book, the "Advanced or Specialty" skills are Hitting and Pitching. Both require extra talent and work to excel. Look at any Roster and pitchers may total near the number of position players but you only need one a game (in the old days anyway). I always told my son (who never wanted to pitch) that it's a good "tool" to have in the old tool box as every team needs a bunch of "em." But really, if they could, who wouldn't rather play everyday?

I do believe, great pitchers are of supreme value but nothing approaches the degree of difficulty required to master hitting a pitched baseball!

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I always told my son (who never wanted to pitch) that it's a good "tool" to have in the old tool box as every team needs a bunch of "em." But really, if they could, who wouldn't rather play everyday?

But really, if they could, who wouldn't want to pitch?

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Originally posted by Prime9:
I do believe, great pitchers are of supreme value but nothing approaches the degree of difficulty required to master hitting a pitched baseball!

I guess you never pitched.

Just as it is difficult to hit a pitched ball, it's just as difficult to throw one and place it where you want it consistantly.

The funny part of all of this is that pitchers can hit, but hitters can't pitch!

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Originally posted by Prime9:
But really, if they could, who wouldn't rather play everyday?

Last year in HS the coach made him a PO. He was very bitter. Missing AB's for 5 months pretty well set the tone for the summer. Yep, he was officially a PO. Two weeks into summer he was totally on board with his new role. Less stress, as he described it, has alot more time for outside interests and to prepare and focus for his next start, he's stronger not only physically but also mentally.

Frankly, from a pitching perspective there are real advantages in not being a two-way player. Not to mention a small fortune saved on bats and instruction.

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Originally posted by TPM:

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Originally posted by Prime9:
I do believe, great pitchers are of supreme value but nothing approaches the degree of difficulty required to master hitting a pitched baseball!

I guess you never pitched.

Just as it is difficult to hit a pitched ball, it's just as difficult to throw one and place it where you want it consistantly.

TPM,

Actually, I was a pitcher (lefty). Perception is a funny thing, huh? As stated, both are "advanced skills." I see it quite the opposite, those who can't hit have no choice but to learn to pitch! The list of pitchers who could have been position players, is a short one I believe.



The funny part of all of this is that pitchers can hit, but hitters can't pitch!

Prime,
I don't agree, most pitchers have played other positions (and hit) and played quite well, and sometimes the most athletic and sometimes the best player on the team.

That's just my perception.

You could ask some of the HSBBW parents whose pitchers are either college or pro players and most hit quite well, until they had to stop as they moved forward.

My HS player led his HS team in HR, BA as well as ERA. He was not forced to become a pitcher because he could not hit or play any position, but rather his arm strength dictated his future position, that is usually what happens in most cases.

my oldest was a great high school hitter, he could hit in the dark with a broom handle. as well as a decent lhp. went to a local cc as a pitcher only. oh well,at least he had a place to go.

during a fall scrimmage they let him hit, after that he pitched and dh'd for 2 years. all region,all american as a dh ist year,same thing next year as a lhp. even had an AB in the minors.

he still hit every winter as part of his workout. he really likes it i guess. i agree with tpm, you'd be surprised how many pitchers can hit. but as they climb the ladder,they never get the chance.

FWIW, I agree it is much harder to succeed as a hitter than as a pitcher. A team only needs 8 starting position players (and they usually are the better hitters), with reserves, pitchers make up more than half the roster. Pitchers have more opportunities to play, than hitters, even though it may not be everyday, with different roles, starter, long reliever, short reliever, closer, you are needed to fulfill a specific role. At the college and pro level, more hitters that do not win starting roles sit the bench than pitchers. In HS, it is play every game, it usually doesn't happen that way after HS. That's why so many get converted to pitchers, not because they couldn't hit, but because there is a greater need for arms.
I know from my own experience when they told son in HS he would be a PO, he was devastated, it hurt, until he reached his senior year he got to play every game again, when not pitching he was the DH or played first base for his bat, the coach said he was sorry he limited him, but that was ok, by senior year son realized he had a better future as a pitcher, and not because he couldn't hit. After not picking up a bat for a game for many years (5 to be exact) he smashed the ball and batting 500 that first game he got to hit (with no insturction beforehand). I'd like to see a position player who hasn't pitched in 5 years strike out 3 or more in a row and be on the mark. Impossible!
Pitchers, unfortunetly at the pro level, are taught to be bunters, but I think if given the oppotuntity for more practice, which is impossible, most would hit better than some position players.

Your arm strength or power at the plate (can you hit HR's) many times determines your future, not whether you can hit or not.

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Originally posted by dswann:

Maybe pitchers have an easier path. I do know. You can't win the game as a pitcher, but you certainly can lose it.

Pitchers may have an easier path because there are more needed. Yes a pitcher has to get outs, but as one moves up, a lot is determined how you get those outs as well. The same for hitters, once the metal bat goes away, many things change, that's pretty evident in watching college hitters who were HR producers and having trouble adjusting to wood.

I don't think it's a matter of one position being better than another, but rather being able to accept where you best fit into the game, if one wants to continue playing. Son had a teammate that was a very good hitter, speedy at the plate and lead off guy for a season. He was converted to a pitcher, he was not happy, neither were his parents, but come draft time, he received 400K signing bonus (10th rounder) due to his upside as a pitcher and adjusting well. Most likely he would have been drafted as a hitter, but not received the $$ or the opportunity he has today.

That's why the quality of a player is determined by his adaptations to new situations, and being able to act accordingly regardless of whether he is suited for the position or not. Many great players start out low and end up high because of determination. If we all got what we wanted in life, would we be so successful? Or would we be just spoiled little rich kids who got it so easy and once hits adult hood winds up doing what he mostly hates.

opportunity comes to the dance dressed in a variety of styles, yet very rarely does it announce itself.

so, the more steps you know the better.

That is so true.
In son's organization there is a player that was drafted as a catcher, this year converted to a pitcher. Although he doesn't have the velocity at this time, he is working hard at development, is a spot receiver getting outs and loves never knowing when he will be called into the game and enjoys the pitching experience so much more than a bp catcher.

This is a game where once you reach a certain level, your future is not determined by what you want to do, but what others that either give you a scholarship or pay you money want you to do, you must be able to adapt to that situation or you won't make it.

I have seen kids 18/19 who were only pitchers try to hit, one of our pitcher looked as good I would up to the plate, very uncomfortable. However he was mainly a LHP and very good at that. In the beginning, the pitchers were the best hitters/players but as they progress, some of these kids lose the ability to keep up with the increase in pitching skills/speed.
Our son is a catcher, he is struggling at the plate, now I wish he stayed a pitcher. Time will tell, my thoughts are in order for him to advance to 4 year school, he better have the hitting down more than the catching.

I wouldn't debate that many pitchers would remain good hitters had the DH not been adopted. For the record, I hate the DH rule. The question, however, was what is the most difficult not what is the most needed. The oldest "axiom" in baseball is that Good pitching always beats good hitting! We know that truth to be self evident by looking at hitting stats (through the Century plus of baseball). The very best hitter fails 70% of the time but are still at the top of the performnace heap. I guess seeing the ball released from near 60' away, determining speed, spin and location, all in less than half a second, then "centering it up" with your 2-5/8" round bat, isn't all that difficult.

How long does the pitcher have, looking in at the catcher, to think about what he wants to throw and visualize where he wants to put it? I believe also, that in most cases, he knows what pitch he's going to throw. Are there any pitchers, viewed as successfull, that fail to get an out 70% of the time?

To perform either skill well, takes talent and tons of practice. Near half of all rosters are made up of pitchers, so statistical probablilty says emphatically, the most favorable road to advancement is to pitch! But sorry, I don't agree it's harder.

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Originally posted by Prime9:
But sorry, I don't agree it's harder.

Tell that to any position player who may attempt to come to the mound and try to get outs. There is a reason why guys like Raphael Furcal and Jeff Francoeur who can throw mid 90's are not pitchers.

Pitchers may be more successful at getting outs than batters are at getting hits, and the numbers may show that it may be easier to make it as a pitcher, but don't underestimate the talent and hard work it takes to be a pitcher.

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Originally posted by bballman:

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Originally posted by Prime9:
But sorry, I don't agree it's harder.

Tell that to any position player who may attempt to come to the mound and try to get outs. There is a reason why guys like Raphael Furcal and Jeff Francoeur who can throw mid 90's are not pitchers.

Pitchers may be more successful at getting outs than batters are at getting hits, and the numbers may show that it may be easier to make it as a pitcher, but don't underestimate the talent and hard work it takes to be a pitcher.

Nothing in baseball is easy. As a former H.S. AND JUCO pitcher that didn't have the talent to make it to the next level, I have some rememberance (not much knowledge) of how hard it is to pitch well. But I do recall, once I "served" it up there, I had eight other friends on the diamond helping me get that hitter out. However, if the batter centers one, he must still hope the opposing nine don't catch it.


It's a great debate. Personally, I always looked for great arms among my position players, that didn't hit particularly well, and converted them to pitchers. Many, not all, MLB pitchers were converted from position players somewhere along the line. You rarely take a good hitter and turn him into a pitcher just because he throws well (unless he is a lefty, then you consider it).

What do you tell your kid if he is the best pitcher on his HS team but would rather play SS full time? Does he have a responsibility to contribute to the team and to keep his long term options open or should play the position he loves most?

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Originally posted by PlankSpanker:
What do you tell your kid if he is the best pitcher on his HS team but would rather play SS full time? Does he have a responsibility to contribute to the team and to keep his long term options open or should play the position he loves most?

Tell him the truth. If he is the best SS and best pitcher, he can and will do both. That decision, however, belongs to his coach.

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Originally posted by Prime9:
But sorry, I don't agree it's harder.

No one is asking you to agree, but as a former pitcher I am surprised at your comments.

I am not debating which position is harder, just not sure why stated pitchers are pitchers because they can't hit. I have seen many good hitters be converted to pitchers.

My advice is that it's not healthy playing both ss and pitcher, too much work on the arm. I agree the final decision goes to the coach.

Prime, I have no doubt hitting a baseball requires considerable skill and against great pitchers is even harder. Yet, from my point of view as the parent of pitcher the risk of injury that pitcher's subject their bodies in order to perform at the highest level possible make it much harder.

Bum, Jr. is a pitcher only. In h.s., they only allowed him to pitch. When the team was struggling, they put him in the lineup. First at-bat was a double off the wall. Second was a HR. After that they sat him again. Go figure.

In h.s., the best pitchers are your best hitters. If you really think about it, it makes sense. But it all changes after that.

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Originally posted by TDad:
Prime, I have no doubt hitting a baseball requires considerable skill and against great pitchers is even harder. Yet, from my point of view as the parent of pitcher the risk of injury that pitcher's subject their bodies in order to perform at the highest level possible make it much harder.

I certainly agree with the injury potential and cringe everytime I hear of another pitching arm injury and the chance of a promising career down the drain!!!! The subject of why so many arm injuries these days, and prevention of said injuries, could be a thread (done many times I'm sure) during this dreary winter.

Best of luck to your pitching son.

Bum, I haven't seen a pattern in H.S. where pitchers are the best hitters .... why does that make sense? Luck to your boy too ... and I can't figure why they would sit him after that performance, especially on a struggling team?

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Originally posted by Bum:

In h.s., the best pitchers are your best hitters. If you really think about it, it makes sense. But it all changes after that.

I agree, it does make sense. Pitchers are able to recognize pitches just like hitters, and also use their pitcher mentality for the next pitch coming. In pro ball (national league especially) the pitchers could be very good hitters also, they just don't get enough practice time in, removed from the game before their next at bats when done pitching, and have to bunt with men on base.

Regardless of pervention, most pitchers have issues if not sooner than later, the majority do work very hard at trying to stay healthy, especially starters. Lots of people think that pitchers have it easy, after a long game, recovery begins immediately and for most it does take at least 5-7 days and that's just not recovery sitting on the coach. It's not easy sitting every night on your butt for 2-4 hours seeing how far you can spit seeds either. That's tough work!

I love these pitcher/hitter discussions because there are so many different opinions. Which is the most difficult? --- That depends on who's attempting it and what day of the week it is. My son was a two way player all through high school and college and on any given day he might shine/stink as a pitcher or do the same as a hitter ---- or possibly both. As far as who works the hardest? That in my opinion has nothing to do with the position played but the desire and the work ethic of the athlete.
Fungo

PS: If your son has the aspirations of becoming a two way player in college he needs to focus on hitting --- coaches frequently convert and use position players to pitcher but in most cases a pitcher will never get a chance to swing a bat and will remain a pitcher as long as he can pitch ------then he becomes a scorekeeper.

Hitting? Pitching? IMO neither compares to the difficulty in sitting in the stands while your son is under the spotlight!

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Originally posted by LTDad:
Hitting? Pitching? IMO neither compares to the difficulty in sitting in the stands while your son is under the spotlight!

There you go. I can certainly relate to that. At least if you are on the mound or plate, you have some control over what you do. In our spot, the only control we have is to keep our mouth shut. It can be hard.

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Originally posted by LTDad:
Hitting? Pitching? IMO neither compares to the difficulty in sitting in the stands while your son is under the spotlight!

Yep... The topic should have been Hittin,Pitchin & Sittin

LTDad,
That comment made me laugh and sums up the sentiments of us all. For awhile, I had to watch games from the outfield fences so I couldn't be seen or heard! I've finally mellowed and am more comfortable with his performance ebbs and flows!

The physical stress of one over the other differs from determining which is the most difficult to master. Let's face it, neither is easy. As Fungo says, effort is dependent upon the indidvidual.

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Regardless of pervention, most pitchers have issues if not sooner than later, the majority do work very hard at trying to stay healthy, especially starters.

TPM, I'm sure that every pitcher works hard to condition, to perform well and to stay healthy. I just don't believe that pitching arm injuries need be a result of pitching. The numbers have exploded in the last 20 years. What was different prior to the 70's that allowed those earlier generations to perform so long free of major injury; Ford, Gibson, Seaver, Ryan, Spahn, Drysdale, Burdette, Terry, Stewart, et al. ..... Maddux and Glavine (until his last year)???

I'm not totally convinced the numbers have skyrocketed as much as claimed. I believe the number of Tommy John surgeries and surgeries in general have increased, but that is just because the surgeries are available now that weren't then. I think there were a lot more players (kids included) who had injuries "back in the day" that just went by the wayside. Some of the guys back then may have had problems that would receive surgery now that just played through the pain. Bob Feller is a good example. It has been discussed on another thread that his speed diminished the last half of his career. He talks about how he popped something in his shoulder. If that had happened now, he probably would have gone under the knife. Just worked through it then and went right on into the Hall.

I could be wrong, but I just think a big part of the "explosion" is that people know the medical remedy is there and they go to the doctor to get it taken care of. Way back when, they were just done. Not many questions asked or doctors visited.