hitting a batter

Sounds like a fun game. Just no head shots! Wish I could watch!

My son's friend who was a catcher in HS confirmed that they would go after him and hit him at least 3 times!

The game within the game...

quote:

stealing signs from the catcher and signaling the batter

That's part of the game. As is dusting the guy next time you play if you are so inclined. However, it's your bad as you should be changing signs with a runner on second.

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Originally posted by Prime9:

That's part of the game. As is dusting the guy next time you play if you are so inclined. However, it's your bad as you should be changing signs with a runner on second.

I have to say I agree with the travel coach. Although not changing the signs with a runner on second is asking to have the signs stolen.

First of all stealing signs happens. Or at least the attempt to steal them. He and the catcher should have got together and first of all switched up the signs if they didn't. What would hurt this batter more? Getting him out 3 times or hitting him? What if your son tries to bean him and hits him in the head? What if he hits him in the knee and shatters his knee cap? What if he injures the kid and they have to call an ambulance to the field? What if he ends this kids baseball career with an intentional bean ball? How is your son going to feel about that? What if your son does indeed plunk the kid and then your son gets up and they go for his head in retaliation? Or if your son doesn't hit what if they go for his team mate and shatter his knee cap in retaliation?

What will your son be remembered for if he hits this kid and puts out one of his eye's? How many more scenarios do you want me to come up with? Getting tossed should be the least of your concerns. Rise above the bush league tactics and just play the freaking game. Be better than him. Anyone can man up and plunk a hitter. Anyone can stoop to the level of others. It takes character and being a man to rise above it and just play the game.

Send a message? Send a message by shoving up his a s s an every one of his team mates for 7 innings and getting the win. Then shake his hand after the game and say "Nice game." I bet you that will sting way more than an upper 80's bean ball.

When a team is playing bush league baseball and yes the team is doing it if a player on a team is doing it and the coach does not take care of it. Then you can either get in the gutter with them or you can kick the living s*it out of them on the scoreboard and simply walk away. Otherwise you are no better than they are imo.

As a coach I would simply have a quick talk with the opposing coach. Handle your business coach. If it did not stop then I would pull out all stops to beat the living day lights out of them. And if and when anyone ever called me about the player on the other team I would make sure that coach knew what my remarks would be to college coaches. And if anyone is going to pay for hurting one of my players or attempting to hurt one of my players it not going to be some 16-17 year old kid. Its going to be that man in the other dugout that allowed it. You can bet your bottom dollar on that.

Have I had pitchers throw at hitters over the years? Yes a couple of times. And it ticked me off pretty bad. And they got the same speech I just gave. And they knew it better not happen again. Has my son been plunked a few times? Yep many times. On purpose? Yes several times. Dust yourself off and go to first base. And make them pay the next time they pitch to you.

Before I sent a 17 year old kid to do my business for me I would walk over to the other dugout and bean the opposing coach for allowing it. Otherwise as a coach I am not man enough to do what I am asking my player to do. And IMO thats pretty pathetic. How about the former D1 player coach man up and give that other coach a call and let him know this "If your bush league player starts his sh*t this season when we play I am personally going to come over to your dugout and we are going to get it straight right then and there." And I am not talking about stealing signs. JMHO

Since this is high school, the response might be a little different, but in professional baseball, every player knows what the penalty is going to be for obviously stealing signs from the basepaths. One way to stop this is to call for a curve ball and come IN with the fastball. This will often cause the batter to lose confidence in the sign stealer. But like I said, this is high school as opposed to professional with men playing so some people may feel that response is not appropriate for this age group.

Does he want to plunk the kid because of stolen signs or because of the blown kiss in the stare down? I read it as the blown kiss. That's not part of any game I've watched.

Another great post Coach May. Some day I wanna buy you a drink.

slotty - I have one son who is a pitcher in pro ball. Another son who is a senior pitcher in HS and will play in college next year. What you are asking is, no question, part of the game in some places, at some levels...however, please re-read Coach May's post and think very carefully about it.

Some will say there is a time and a place...but your son is not there yet.

If that doesn't do it, listen to your wife. I believe she is correct.

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
Some will say there is a time and a place...but your son is not there yet.

If that doesn't do it, listen to your wife. I believe she is correct.

Agree with CM, lots of stuff can happen when someone goes after the batter, getting thrown out should be the least of your concerns.

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
Another great post Coach May. Some day I wanna buy you a drink.

What he said.

Although it wasn't from stealing signs, my son had a beef (flirting with his girlfriend non-stop) with a player from the rival high school. Somehow the rumor got out that my son was going to bean him in their next game. Both teams were waiting to see what would happen when they met. So, what did my son do? Struck him out 3 times. He said it was way better than hitting him. And don't you know that kid and his entire team will remember my son when he pitches against him during league.

Some day I hope you get that chance and it would be my honor. When men are getting paid to play the game and they are old enough , mature enough , etc etc to make those types of decisions and they understand the possible ramifications if things go terribly wrong then so be it.

We are talking about hs aged kids who need the proper guidance in these types of situations. And the coach is the person that needs to be the one that assists in that guidance. Kids think they are bullett proof. They dont understand what can happen. What might happen. And they have no idea how something can go from bad to worse real quick. What started out as a prank ends up in a death. What started out as just "sending a message" ends up with a young man clinging to his life on life support in ICU. And now people want answers. People want to know how this happened, why this happened, how could this happen? And the coach where is he at now? Your son crying in his bedroom wondering what happened. Now he is a monster and only remembered for something no one wants to be remembered for. All for the sake of "sending a message" to some 16 17 year old kid?

Is the risk worth the reward? Is what could go wrong worth it? Have all other options been explored? Could simply talking to the opposing coach stop him from acting like a clown? When this kid is blowing a kiss on the baseball field who looks like the clown? When your son simply plays the game he is the man. When he stoops to the level of the clown he has now joined the circus. There is no other way to look at it, imo.

I have said enough on this topic and I am sure there will be people that disagree with me. I dont have a problem with that. I can live with my approach with no problem.

Coach May is right. What may be appropriate at higher levels may not be right in high school. A good inside fast ball would be fine.
My son plays ss and it's obvious to him when someone is trying to signal the batter from second. Against ABD in east Cobb a runner tried it and he called the catcher and pitcher together and picked off the runner on the next pitch. Later the runner tried to steal second and received an aggressive tag on the play. He can send messages in the course of the game that he will feel better about down the road.

No wonder I get in trouble all the time...

Guess that's why I'm just a fan sittin in the stands. Sometimes one needs to think about what they are going to say, before they say it.

In full disclosure there was one time in my illustrious coaching career when the thought of hitting a kid entered my mind. My son was catching in some dirtball (no offense)9 yr old tournament and some kid went out of his way to run him over at the plate even though there was no play and he standing 5 feet in front of home watching the play in the field. While my son was lying on the ground the runners teammates were high fiving him.

Later on my son was on the mound and all I was thinking of was what to do when that kid came up to bat. He never did and I never found out what I was going to do.

I can't offer anything better than what Coach May has already said and he's hit the nail on the head. When you guys go out to get that drink let me know and I'll pick up the second round.

Using his example of a coach having to answer questions when a kid gets hurt from a bean ball - I couldn't imagine being in that situation and never want to be. It's truly not worth it.

If my kid stands out on second base stealing signs and then blows the opposing pitcher a kiss.......he's going to think getting hit by a pitch is nothing compared to what hits the fan when he gets home and I have him in my sights. My kids and I, we have an agreement......you carry the family name, have some pride in it and don't ever hurt the reputation it took years to establish or the rest of us are not going to be pleased.

For some reason images of AROD in Yankee pinstripes come to mind........

The bean ball wouldn't be unusual here but it takes a bigger man to take the high road. Nobody's livelihood is at stake and you aren't protecting anybody either.

Oh yeah, BTW what happens when you bean him, he takes first, steals second and then blows you a kiss at the end of his pop up slide? Man that's ugly......

I guess we are just more subtle in AZ. I have seen kids do some crazy stuff and hotdog it up and everything that would earn a bean ball. But I have rarely seen it happen. Not never, but rarely.

What I have seen is that when the kid gets on base, the fielders take it out on the runner. Lots of hard tags on picks that had no chance of getting an out. I have seen kids go back to the base feet first to get a piece of the the fielder. I saw it this weekend on a face tag on a particular SS that jawed at every kid all day(except my son, size seems to make a difference on that kind of stuff ).

The kids usually get there point across one way or the other.

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Originally posted by PA Dino:
Oh yeah, BTW what happens when you bean him, he takes first, steals second and then blows you a kiss at the end of his pop up slide? Man that's ugly......

Yes, better to strike him out 3 times and blow him a kiss after the final one. If I was the pitcher and wanted to send a message, I would brush him back on the first pitch, then strike him out. I've never understood how giving him a base is sending a message.

PA Dino that's the reason you never have to worry about a kid like yours pulling something like that. Here is a true story and it happened when my son was a soph in hs. We were in a new conf and we had some pretty good players that had gotten some press recently about their play. We were playing at the teams home field that had ruled that conference prior to our getting into it. They had a stud who was also known for being a pretty hot headed kid. He had already signed to a good D1 program. He was on the mound that day and one of our big arms was on the mound for us.

My son who was a soph hits a HR in his first ab. As he is rounding 3b the pitcher walks towards the 3b line and says "Thats OK big boy I'll get mine." Well in fact in his first ab he hit a hr. And he pimped it like no one I had ever seen. In my son's 2nd at bat he hit a ground rule dbl. As he is standing on 2b the umpire throws in a new ball. This guys catches it and starts walking to 2b where my son was, rubbing up the baseball. He walks all the way to the bag where my son is standing. "Thats ok because the next time your up Im going to drill your a s s!" My son starts laughing and we could not hear what he said to him. When the inning was over he told us.

Well his next time up first pitch is over his head. Next pitch is behind him. The umpire brings the coaches out to the mound and says "No more of this." He grounds out to ss. So things cooled off for awhile. The score is 6-5 us and its the bottom of the 7th. A runner on 2nd base and 2outs and guess who comes up for them? Yes you guessed it their guy. I never hesitated to put him on. No way was I going to allow him the satisfaction of thinking for one minute. I brought in a kid that was drafted the next year who could throw pure gas as a closer. The look on his face when he K'd with the game on the line was well worth it.

Later in the year when they came to our place he was on the hill again. One of our guys homers in the 5th to give us a 1-0 lead and he nails the next batter in the back. When he got up our guy threw at his head. I went to the mound and put a pretty good chewing on the pitcher. He said he was not trying to hit him just send a message. While I was at the mound I looked at home plate and my son the catcher and this kid are laughing. I later learned the hitter told my son during the mound visit "Hey tell Pratt if he is going to hit me don't throw at my head. Im going to anger management class to get a grip on this stuff man. Its not personal I am just trying to work out some issues. You guys got a good team."

This kid would get it together and go on and have an outstanding college career as a inf / hitter. And he and my son have turned out to be pretty good friends who stay in contact with each other. Crazy stuff. But dangerous. It is simply not worth the risk.

Stealing signs? well if the opposing team is syealing them that is on you. As far as blowing a kiss if i was the coach of that kid his *** would be on the bench.

Coach May.....amazing stuff.....would that all coaches at any level had your wisdom, in fact...why not at all levels of management, be it political or otherwise.... Keeping the game personal without things getting "personal" is the challenge all players/coaches have. When it gets "personal" your focusing on things that take the player/team out of their game and defeat will surely not be far behind.

quote:

If my kid stands out on second base stealing signs and then blows the opposing pitcher a kiss.......he's going to think getting hit by a pitch is nothing compared to what hits the fan when he gets home and I have him in my sights.

I couldn't agree more. If the coach didn't bench him I would be thinking about shoving his sorry you-know-what in the car and driving him home before the game was over. Completely unacceptable in our family.

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Originally posted by slotty:
After a brief stand-off, the player on 2nd blew him a kiss.

I'm scared that he'll be tossed. Thoughts?

First of all, I know from personal experience that a kid who blows a kiss is going to get drilled the next time up, game situation allowing. A big kid who hit a HR of the starter rounded the base blowing a kiss to the dugout. The next time he was up, the coach called for the kid to be hit, but the pitcher who was known for not wanting to hit batters didn't do it. The coach sent the pitching coach out to the mound, but the kid refused. Next thing you know, the head coach comes out to the mound and pulls him. My son who was scheduled to start the next game is told to go to the mound in relief. Needless to say, the first pitch was a fastball to the ribs, and the kid took his base.


As it turns out the kid was a friend of my sons from years back, and after the game they shook hands and my son apologized for hitting him without telling him it was on purpose.

When I asked my son about it, he said that the pitcher who refused to hit the kid was benched for his next start, and the coach made it clear to my son he wanted the first pitch somewhere in the batters torso. My son didn't want to hit his friend, but knew the consequences of refusing, so he followed the coaches instruction.



The advice I would give you is not to have your son hit the kid on his own. If the coach called for it, that would be one thing. But players should not be doing stuff on their own without the coaches knowledge.
Needless to say striking the kid out and winning the game are more important than personal retribution.

quote:

First of all, I know from personal experience that a kid who blows a kiss is going to get drilled the next time up, game situation allowing.

That's phrased as if getting drilled after blowing a kiss is nearly automatic. Is it correct or reasonable to make that sort of generalization based on a single experience? You can read coaches within this thread who say they wouldn't make that call. Over the years, I've seen a number of insulting behaviors, and actual attempts to injure players in high school or travel ball. Perhaps the coaches I've seen in that situation aren't normal, but I haven't heard of a coach asking a pitcher to hit the opposing batter.

I have seen players take it upon themselves to hit a batter or apply hard tags, but based on my sampling, it's uncommon for a high school or travel coach to call for hitting a batter.

quote:

The advice I would give you is not to have your son hit the kid on his own. If the coach called for it, that would be one thing. But players should not be doing stuff on their own without the coaches knowledge.
Needless to say striking the kid out and winning the game are more important than personal retribution.

I'm sorry Vector but I can't agree with this. I have a ton of respect for the first kid for standing up for his principles. In your situation it worked out the hitter wasn't hurt but you're still asking a lot from your son. Chances are it would never happen because he didn't intend to hurt him but in order to do that he probably let up a little to just get it in there. What if he left it up and it hit him in the face somehow?

Do you really want your son to have to deal with hurting a friend of his over something like this?

Please don't take this as criticism of your son because this dumb coach put him in a terrible spot. Your son never should have been put in this spot.

I am with you coach.

I commend the pitcher for refusing the coach. The coach had no business asking anyone to intentionally hit anyone.

All is needed is a FB inside or one thrown behind the batter to send a message.

Regarding the two replies to my story, keep in mind this is not an isolated incident. I only mentioned this particular story because it involved the exact same action the OP described(blowing a kiss), and because my son was involved.

Maybe hitting kids in HS has become less common, but when I played in HS, it was more common. I was never told to headhunt or intentionally try to injure a player. However if a player was crowding the plate or tried to show up our team, I'd get the signal and let it fly.

As to my son hurting a friend, I'd hope he never hurts anyone, even accidentally. However the teams in this area are very competitive/aggressive, and hitting kids is not unheard of.
I am not defending the practice, but it seems better now days than when I was growing up.



BTW- Not that it makes a big difference, but the pitcher who refused to hit batter was not doing it on principle, rather he was afraid of the batter charging the mound. This despite the coach apparently having told the pitching staff that the team would always have their back.

Being in a competitive area or not, no justification for any coach to tell a HS pitcher to intentionally hit a batter.

Giving a player the green light even makes it ridiculous.

Benching a pitcher because he refused, regardless of reason, is even more ridiculous.

Why hit someone, that's a potential run, which could mean the difference between a win or a loss.

My son has been hit intentionally twice in his career. Once when he was 13 he got drilled on the inside thigh. Had a bruise the size of a large grapefruit. This was from a coach and team that he had played tournament ball for since he was 10. He switched teams and the coach didn't like it.

The second time was in high school. As a freshman on varsity he was told by an opposing coach (that he knew from going to that schools' camp) that they were going to hit him the 1st game of the season. We laughed at this when son told us and certainly didn't believe it would happen. Before the game the same coach told our high school coaches that if my son was 3-1 in the AB they would plunk him. Our coaches laughed thinking the other coach was joking.
Sure enough, 3 balls, next one right in the side.
Didn't hurt him, we went on the win the game.

Personally I think both those coaches were jerks. The high school coach could have been banned from coaching for intentionally hitting a batter. He's now a junior college coach in our area. He's still kind of a jerk but does a good job with his players.Just play the game the right way and get your satisfaction from winning.

Stealing signs is part of the game, and there are many ways for the runner to relay it to home without you ever know he is stealing signs. Hands on knees for fastball, arms crossed in front for curveball, etc. Heck, some catchers are bad at hiding signs from the first base coach that even they can use verbal cues to the batter. Like someone said earlier, that is why the signals are changed when someone is on base. Also why catchers set up inside or outside late in the windup.

If a kid blowing a kiss gets under the skin, what happens when verbal taunts are shared between teams by runners on the bases, chants about the pitcher from the dugout, etc. IMO a better response for the pitcher would be to ignore all external taunts (verbal or blown kisses) and continue to pitch his game. It is better to teach players to tune out all the c-r-a-p and focus on doing their job. In the long run they will become better players.

If taunting bothers your kid now, wait till he is at some rival college stadiums and runs up against the professional hecklers. He'll be glad he learned to tune it out, guarantee it.

quote:

Originally posted by CaBB:
My son has been hit intentionally twice in his career. Once when he was 13 he got drilled on the inside thigh. Had a bruise the size of a large grapefruit. This was from a coach and team that he had played tournament ball for since he was 10. He switched teams and the coach didn't like it.

Hitting kids as young as 13 seems absurd to me, especially for the reason it happened to your son.

For those who think HS is too young for batters to be hit, I wonder at what point in baseball is it considered ok with you?

When you get paid to play the game then it's ok to get hit. By that point you're an adult and can make decisions for yourself. High school kids don't need to do this ever.

In my opinion it is never appropriate, however, being part of the game, it happens.

In pro ball unless serious rivals with a current issue, it doesn't happen (intentionally hitting a batter) but other stuff does (push backs, high FB). Usually it's towards one guy, who needs a dose of humility and that is not determined by the manager or coaching staff.

Tell me how many times last year did you see someone hit intentionally in the pro game?

If the kid blew a kiss or taunting, then it is up to the coach or manager to take care of business, letting your players do it is inappropriate.

Oh and by the way, one should NEVER admit it was intentional.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
If the kid blew a kiss or taunting, then it is up to the coach or manager to take care of business, letting your players do it is inappropriate.

Like Don Zimmer and Pedro Martinez?

quote:

Originally posted by CaBB:
My son has been hit intentionally twice in his career. Once when he was 13 he got drilled on the inside thigh. Had a bruise the size of a large grapefruit. This was from a coach and team that he had played tournament ball for since he was 10. He switched teams and the coach didn't like

Wow...for changing travel teams at age 13? I hope you let that coach have it after the game...I would have been in his face, in fact, probably during the game if it was that obvious.

A pitcher brushing a hitter back or even hitting him IS a part of the game. In fact, yesterday on the MLB Network Al Leiter talked about this and acknowledged this fact.

However, it just shouldn't be talked about. You just do it. When it happens in MLB you always hear the pitchers denying that it was intentional. The rare times when a player admits when it was on purpose those are the players that get fined.

Now that it is brought up and posted here you have opened up a can of worms. If it does happen and the player does get hurt, it can be proven to be premeditated. This may make your son/you/his coach liable.

My advice would be to discuss this whole situation with your son as this is an opportunity to learn. First of all he should know that stealing signs is a part of the game. Having multiple sets of signs is needed for situations like this. A player blowing a kiss to your son is out of line and situations like this may be one that warrants him to get hit in his next AB. However, I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND TO YOUR SON TO HIT THIS PLAYER. I would simple say, as you get older this is a time when a pitcher might do it. It should also be discussed how to throw at a player (for later down the road). Let him know to never throw at a players head! IF he's going to hit a guy you want to do so above his knee and below his shoulder, ideally in his back pocket!

Situations like this can be valuable in teaching players the game of baseball. Discussing a situation and actions can be just as valuable as actually doing them.

While I still say HS players NEVER throw at hitters I think Trombly has made some good points if it is going to be done. Still........don't do it.