hitting a batter

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Now that it is brought up and posted here you have opened up a can of worms. If it does happen and the player does get hurt, it can be proven to be premeditated. This may make your son/you/his coach liable.

The California Supreme Court ruled in 2006 on a case involving an intentional beaning. The plaintiff sought judgement against the Citrus Community College District for sponsoring a game in which a retaliatory intentional beaning occurred between Rio Hondo and Citrus players. While this suit was against an entity and not a person, the opinions rendered by the court leave little room for a plantiff to prevail against anyone in a lawsuit based on injury sustained as the result of intentional beaning.

The basis of the suit was that Citrus was "negligent in failing to supervise and control the Citrus College Pitcher."

The court concluded that being hit by a baseball is an inherent risk of the game.

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"Being intentionally hit is … so accepted by custom that a pitch intentionally thrown at a batter has its own terminology: "brushback," "beanball," "chin music." In turn, those pitchers notorious for throwing at hitters are "headhunters." Pitchers intentionally throw at batters to disrupt a batter's timing or back him away from home plate, to retaliate after a teammate has been hit, or to punish a batter for having hit a home run. (See, e.g., Kahn, The Head Game (2000) pp. 205-239.)

"Some of the most respected baseball managers and pitchers have openly discussed the fundamental place throwing at batters has in their sport." The court cited as an example: George Will's study of the game, Men at Work, where one-time Oakland Athletics and current St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa details the strategic importance of ordering selective intentional throwing at opposing batters, principally to retaliate for one's own players being hit. (Will, Men at Work (1990) pp. 61-64.)

The court further dispelled thoughts about differences in the levels of play i.e. professional baseball as opposed to college, high school or even little league.

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"'[t]here is nothing legally significant . . . about the level of play' in this case. (West v. Sundown Little League of Stockton, Inc. (2002) 96 Cal.App.4th 351, 359-360; see

Balthazor v. Little League Baseball, Inc., supra, 62 Cal.App.4th at
pp. 51-52; Mann v. Nutrilite, Inc., supra, 136 Cal.App.2d at p. 734.) The laws of physics that make a thrown baseball dangerous and the strategic benefits that arise from disrupting a batter's timing is only
minimally dependent on the skill level of the participants, and we see no reason to distinguish between collegiate and professional baseball in applying primary assumption of the risk."

The court also concluded that even though an intentional beaning of a player violates rules and regulations set forth for the game, it in no way lays the groundwork for a lawsuit.

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"It is one thing for an umpire to punish a pitcher who hits a batter by ejecting him from the game, or for a league to suspend the pitcher; it is quite another for tort law to chill any pitcher from throwing inside, i.e., close to the batter's body—a permissible and essential part of the sport—for fear of a suit over an errant pitch. For better or worse, being intentionally thrown at is a fundamental part and inherent risk of the sport of baseball. It is not the function of tort law to police such conduct.

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Consequently, the doctrine of primary assumption of the risk bars any claim predicated on the allegation that the Citrus College pitcher negligently or intentionally threw at Avila."

In this case, it was obvious that the beaning was retaliatory, the batter was struck in the head and it cracked his helmet, he suffered injury that required him to seek treatment at the hospital. Even so, because beaning batters intentionally is an assumed risk of the game, no one can be held liable. However, they can be made miserable by a five year process of lawsuits and trials. Thus, nobody admits it when it happens. You can never be too sure.
California Supreme Court

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Originally posted by AntzDad:

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Originally posted by TPM:
If the kid blew a kiss or taunting, then it is up to the coach or manager to take care of business, letting your players do it is inappropriate.

Like Don Zimmer and Pedro Martinez?

Key word is kid.

Thanks to everyone for weighing in here. I respect all of your viewpoints..and I'm still conflicted! Some of you raised some questions or sought clarity regarding a point or two; I'll attempt to fill in the spaces here:

**My son wants to retaliate because of the blown kiss, not the sign-stealing.

**He contends, perhaps somewhat naively, that by stepping off he was indicating to the baserunner the he was aware of what he was attempting and that he was giving him the opportunity to cut it out.

**After stepping off and before the next pitch, he and the catcher did change the signs.

**As I think I mentioned, my son has excellent control; if he plunks somebody it'll be in the thigh or the ribcage. I suppose theoretically his grip could slip and the ball could sail high, but...

And, lastly, I will--somewhat ambiguously--leave you with a quote from catcher/1B Victor Martinez of the Red Sox: "If you want respect, show respect."

If the clown blows kisses then everyone in your league or state knows that he is a hot dog jerk. You've been given absolutely solid reasons why you never tell a high school kid to plunk someone.

Someone, somwhere, will drill the kid ... but I would not want it to be by my doing (or my kids, or a member of a team I've coached)....

The only blatant time i had a kid hit someone like this I made him skip his next start. I told him I was interested in winning games and hitting a guy you've got a 70% chance of getting out is counter productive. (the two of them kept hitting each other in summer ball I was told)

The more I read this thread, the more it becomes obvious how attitudes have changed compared with previous generations. I think we've become conditioned to go along with current thinking, even if it is against tradition or the unwritten rules of the game.

For instance, (having nothing to do with little league or even JV ball) when I watch a ballgame with my father, he expects showoffs to get hit. That also goes for batters crowding the plate, and most certainly anyone stealing signals. He of course believes that pitchers should bat, and face the music as well. Needless to say he cannot stand the DH.
He gets annoyed when the umps start warning the players and coaches after the first batter gets hit. He says, "let them work it out themselves", basically meaning the other team will retaliate, then it will be over.
He talks with a glean in his eye about how no one would dig in against Nolan, Gibson, or Drysdale.
To him it is as much a part of the game as a runner coming in high and hard to break up a double play. He thinks todays game, like many of the men have become feminized. So listening to him and his friends of a different generation, compared with opinions of today, makes me realize how much things have changed with many people.

As a high school coach I am in the business of teaching young men how to play the game. How to actually play the game. When I start using that time to teach them to retaliate, get caught up in bush league tactics, throw at hitters, go in high with the spikes, etc etc what else am I really teaching them? When someone cuts you off in traffic don't take that bush league stuff son. You got to send a message to that guy that cut you off just as good as he cut you off. You got to man up son. If someone disrespects you then you need to disrespect them. You know you have to get your respect.

Yes this stuff has been a part of the game. They throw at you, you throw at them. They dis you, you got to dis them back. We are talking about hs aged young men that are in the NEED of learning how to play the game. And they are in NEED of being taught how to rise above other people who do not know how to play the game and act. When you start teaching kids to retaliate on the baseball field and then they retaliate off the baseball field be man enough to admit you taught them that. When they get in a fight off campus for "not putting up with something" because Coach taught them they have to stand up for themselves - get my point here?

I would rather teach young men to rise above childish behavior. I would rather spend my time teaching players to simply play the game the right way. I dont want anything on their hands if something does go wrong. I simply want them to learn how to play hard, play smart and learn how to rise above petty childish behavior. We are talking about 15 16 17 18 year old young men. They have no business throwing a baseball at another player because they can not controll their emotions. And even worse when a grown man tells them to because he can not.

If grown men who are getting paid to play the game want to bean each other and fight on the diamond go for it. Get it on and live with it. I could careless. Yes the game has changed. It will continue to change as time goes by. Everything does. And sometimes change is good.

Vector,
I understand how your father feels, that's part of the game, but that is part of a game on a whole different level.

There is a big difference between grown men settling the score by intentionally hitting and HS, LL coaches telling the pitchers to hit someone.

You seemed to be pretty proud that your son took the initiative to hit a batter when someone else refused (for whatever reason). Tell me how you would feel if your son was up at the plate and a 95-96 mph hit him in the ribs?

The OP asked a serious question we gave our opinions.

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Originally posted by Coach_May:
We are talking about 15 16 17 18 year old young men. They have no business throwing a baseball at another player

And sometimes change is good.

Indeed, and sometimes it is bad. Many times it is a matter of ones perspective.

I guess my question to you would be at what age and/or level do you approve, or at least condone the rougher aspects of the game? It certainly happens at the college level, and some of those kids are only 18 as well.

Keep in mind that I am not saying the OP's son should retaliate, and have even suggested he not do so.
However it was a part of the HS game when I played some 25 years ago, and at least in certain areas with certain coaches it still is.

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If grown men who are getting paid to play the game want to bean each other and fight on the diamond go for it. Get it on and live with it. I could careless.

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There is a big difference between grown men settling the score by intentionally hitting and HS, LL coaches telling the pitchers to hit someone.

Major League rosters include many grown men from the ages of 18 - 23 years young. Last year's highest profile incident occurred between a 24 year old (Chris Volstad of the Marlins) and 30 year old (Nyjer Morgan of the Nats). No one deserved beaning more than Morgan after his numerous acts made a spectacle of himself; even throwing a ball into the stands at a Philadelphia heckler but missing and injuring an innocent bystander. Volstad beaned Morgan and then in the same game threw behind him.

Is it consistent to condone or passively take no stand on behavior like this but then to expect those most influenced to act in a different manner? These "men" are role modeling professional behavior for our high school and youth players to emulate. They see it happen live, then on replay, then on ESPN and then on the highlight reruns. Their innate moral compass is thrown out of whack. They have been trained to react in a certain way without coming to that conclusion on their own. Even their electronic game playing permits intentional beanings. We should no more expect our youth pitchers to use restraint than we would for instance store marijuana in our garage and not expect them to smoke it. You know what makes it worse? We now have a whole slew of high school and youth coaches who have graduated from that mindset and are teaching it to their players. If we are going to allow the highest level of players to bean each other but wink at our kids and say "but don't you do that!",can we really have it both ways?

Good point. Unfortunetly, the young 24 year old, was most likely "persuaded" by his teammates to go after Morgan. Just like the coach perusades the young player. The "suggestion" is not given by any manager or coach. As you have seen, these things have a way of turning ugly, Jason La Rue, back up catcher to Yadi Molina, retired this year due to severe concussion with the Cardinals/Reds fiasco. It is not something that any organization supports but it happens.

I don't support any player any level, intentionally hitting someone, what I did say was that there is a difference between grown men and boys trying to settle their business. The grown men make their decision and know that they have to take full responsibility for their actions, the younger player follows orders from his coach, believing if the coach is asking it must be ok.

Drilling a player in the ribs was not smart, IMO.

In 3 years of watching college ball, I only witnessed one incident where there was confrontation for payback, so not sure where one comes up with that this happens, it may rarely occur and most of the time you wouldn't know what was happening.

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We now have a whole slew of high school and youth coaches who have graduated from that mindset and are teaching it to their players. If we are going to allow the highest level of players to bean each other but wink at our kids and say "but don't you do that!",can we really have it both ways?

I can't control what my players see on TV, I can't control what they are able to do when they play video games, I can't control what their little league / travel coach / parent has told them and I can't control what they do when they get on the mound. But I can control what happens if they hit someone on purpose after I've told them not to. I see where you're going with your statement and it's a good question but since I can't provide an answer for all of society I'm going to just handle it with what I can control. If a player or parent is upset because I won't allow my pitchers to "protect their teammates" then they can go find a team that will allow them.

Great post coach. I know what I can have an impact on. And those are the players that play for me while they play for me. Outside of that what else can I say? I do not condone professional players throwing at each other. But I certainly have not control over it. No more control over them than I do the hs program down the road from me that wants to throw at people if thats what they do.

Hitting a batter? Retaliation? Reading this thread reminds us that Baseball REALLY is a MENTAL game....

In Football, if the opposing player is giving you problems, you can inflict punishment on him legally via a block, a tackle, a big run where you decide to stay in bounds and give the punishment, etc...and blow off some steam.

In Basketball, you're constantly moving. If you have problems with your opponent, you can take a charge, give a charge, get physical inside offensively and defensively. If you're struggling on offense, you don't have time to sulk because you have an immediate job on the other end on D.

In Hockey, you can legally check that player that's bothering you, and even pick a fight with him on the ice and only be penalized a few minutes as it's part of the game.

In Soccker, again...you're constantly moving and able to blow off steam on a large field and soccker is physical at times.

In BASEBALL, if you have problems with a player stealing signs or blowing kisses, what do you do? Well, obviously you mix up your signs. But this guy just blew me a kiss, I'm angry and I want a piece of this guy! I'm not going to face him for another 7-8 batters, will I still be mad 2-3 innings from now? Did I just let that guy get in my head and now he's taken away my focus? This isn't football, I can't stick this guy with a block or a hard tackle...heck, I'm not allowed to touch him. I have to focus on the next batter, the next pitch, the next out. I'd love to drill him between the numbers his next AB, but even more than that, I'd love to get my redemption by striking him out on three pitches! That's the best way to handle this scenario, hopefully I get the chance to face him again, I'd want to beat him every time! Hopefully he doesn't beat me next AB, otherwise I'm probably going to be a Mental Mess ...Baseball is a special game!

Honestly, if you'd asked me 15-20 years ago (even more recent than that), I would certainly have said Drill that kid this AB and strike him out his next AB. But now I have a son that pitches and hits. So if I put my son in the same situation...what if he retaliates and severely hurts a batter? What if he's the batter that is severely hurt? It's a NO win situation. The ONLY way to win is to get him out, preferably with a Big K!

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My son's travel coach (former Div I player) says he's got to send a message to the kid. I'm scared that he'll be tossed. Thoughts?

I'm going to take a little stronger position on this than most. An aspect of the mental side of sports than can certainly affect performance is confidence. Intimidation affects confidence. Those of you that haven't actually competed in something may not grasp it. You can see confidence leave the eyes of a soon to be loser. You can even see it in their demeanor. Many know they have lost before even entering the contest, based on the reputation of their foe.

Some players are more physically aggressive than others. Some are just plain more competitive than others. We know what happened when players tried to bunt on Nolan Ryan. Hitters were AFRAID of Bob Gibson who readily admitted he disliked everyone on the other team. In that era, players weren't allowed to befriend anyone competing against you. Ty Cobb, Pete Rose, Drysdale and many others were fierce physical and mental competitors. Times change of course; a little too fast for this old Veteran.

I'm not advocating an eye for an eye, but any player or manager will tell you that players do a better job of policing the game than umpires, who often in their good intentions, affect play and momentum, sometimes affecting the outcome.

I attribute this shift in Societal morays to a sign of the times. A general "woosifying of society" and a further example of people not accepting responsibility. Learn to take care of yourself, and your own (teammates in this case). I can cite many acceptable examples of this in a game; a dust off, charging the mound, sliding in aggressively at any base, a properly aimed, near the head, relay throw, and so forth.

My thoughts; if you don't want to be bullied, or have your son/daughter bullied, teach them how to stand up for themselves. Don't expect someone else to make the world a better, safer place. That pitcher threw at you or one of your players, ok. we will find a time and a place to handle that. My son has been thrown at too. My response, that's part of life. How do you as an individual, or your teammates or team want to handle it. I've got my own ideas. I don't advocate retaliation, I do demand self-respect and expect team members not to forget the meaning of team. Oh yea, and at these higher levels, I do expect the desire to win!

Great comments 247....so let me if I may, pose a hypothetical. Is it ok for a batter to intentionally attempt to hit the pitcher in retaliation for some percieved transgression against him or his team? There are aobvious flaws in the thinking because very few if anyone is that good with a bat. But, if it were possible, would it be ok? Would pitchers and coaches think differently about their strategy if they knew their pitcher was in danger of being hit intentionally by a batter? Is that not the same kind of thinking we are talking about here?

I’ll have a little Friday afternoon fun with this topic. Two comments:

1) The problem with Respect is that it’s too dependent on other people (I’m paraphrasing a quote I heard somewhere, but can’t remember the source). The world is filled with jerks, don’t play their game, don’t let them define you.

2) Why not just bean the runner immediately after he’s blown you a kiss? Why wait until he comes up to bat again, just throw the ball while he's on 2nd base. Isn’t the “message” that you have the ability to hurt him? So hurt him. (I am kidding in hopes of showing how silly it is that any level of violence will solve the problem)

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Originally posted by J23:
Great comments 247....so let me if I may, pose a hypothetical. Is it ok for a batter to intentionally attempt to hit the pitcher in retaliation for some percieved transgression against him or his team? There are aobvious flaws in the thinking because very few if anyone is that good with a bat. But, if it were possible, would it be ok? Would pitchers and coaches think differently about their strategy if they knew their pitcher was in danger of being hit intentionally by a batter? Is that not the same kind of thinking we are talking about here?

Rules of engagement, you don't go after pitchers.

Hey, listen all, the bottom line is that former D1 coach should know better.

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2) Why not just bean the runner immediately after he’s blown you a kiss? Why wait until he comes up to bat again, just throw the ball while he's on 2nd base. Isn’t the “message” that you have the ability to hurt him? So hurt him. (I am kidding in hopes of showing how silly it is that any level of violence will solve the problem)

"plausible deniability".

Saw this in a tournament. Kid hit a ball that glanced off the player running from 1st to 2nd. He should have been called out, but ump did not see it and he was called safe at 2nd as the deflected ball was not fielded. Needless to say, that created quite a big stink.
Next inning the runner in question came up to bat. Pitcher was taking too long so he turned to the ump, requested a time out and it was granted. The batter backed up at least 3 feet outside the batters box, then turned to face pitcher just in time to have a pitched ball hit him square in the face. It knocked him out for several minutes, then he was taken to the hospital. Don't know whatever happened to him. The pitcher claimed by the time he realized time out had been called, he could not stop his throw, and it came out wild and hit the batter. The ump bought it and the pitcher was allowed to stay in the game. Geezz!

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Originally posted by Doughnutman:
What I have seen is that when the kid gets on base, the fielders take it out on the runner. Lots of hard tags on picks that had no chance of getting an out.

This way is much better than cracking a rib or breaking a hand with a fastball. A bloody nose never hurt anybody.

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Originally posted by J23:
Great comments 247....so let me if I may, pose a hypothetical. Is it ok for a batter to intentionally attempt to hit the pitcher in retaliation for some percieved transgression against him or his team? There are aobvious flaws in the thinking because very few if anyone is that good with a bat. But, if it were possible, would it be ok? Would pitchers and coaches think differently about their strategy if they knew their pitcher was in danger of being hit intentionally by a batter? Is that not the same kind of thinking we are talking about here?

J23-

I don't wish harm on any player...Pitcher, Hitter, or Position Player. But the answer to your question is yes. What do most player's attempt to do after a pitcher brushes them back and puts them on their wallet? They get back up and try and drill the ball up the middle. Does it happen often? No. But it does happen, and most coaches encourage it. "Drive it back through the box"..."Hit it back where it came from"..."Work the L screen"..."Spin a Cap", and many other drive the middle references. It's part of the game, but players aren't intentionally trying to inflict injury on their opponents...JMO.

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"Drive it back through the box"..."Hit it back where it came from"..."Work the L screen"..."Spin a Cap", and many other drive the middle references. It's part of the game, but players aren't intentionally trying to inflict injury on their opponents...JMO.

I would agree with you. Isn't that called "competing?"

I don't get that there are some that actually think that it's ok to hit a batter.

I do beleive that the travel former D1 coach gave the OP's son bad advice. It makes no sense, this all happened last season and now he's gonna send a message?

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Originally posted by bsbl247:
I don't wish harm on any player...Pitcher, Hitter, or Position Player. But the answer to your question is yes. What do most player's attempt to do after a pitcher brushes them back and puts them on their wallet? They get back up and try and drill the ball up the middle. Does it happen often? No. But it does happen, and most coaches encourage it. "Drive it back through the box"..."Hit it back where it came from"..."Work the L screen"..."Spin a Cap", and many other drive the middle references. It's part of the game, but players aren't intentionally trying to inflict injury on their opponents...JMO.

I would suspect most of the coaches calling for a drive up the middle are not thinking "hit the pitcher", rather that many hits up the middle result in base hits, especially if the pitcher does not field his position well. Some kids have great stuff, but fall on their face during pfp's. Some lose their stuff if they try landing in a manner conducive to fielding well.


So unless the infield is pinched for a dp and/or the pitcher is good defensively, a hit up the middle many times results in a runner on base.
Also, unlike a pitcher who has reasonably decent control and will not intentionally head hunt, a ball struck back at the pitcher has no such control. It could find his face just as easily as his ankle, so I'd think batting with the intent of trying to hit the pitcher is a more risky proposition.

Well, this is the only hitting the batter story I can relate - comes from a 12U game...

Within earshot of our catcher, one of the opposing coaches kept instructing his bottom of the lineup batters to put their toes on the line and lean out over the plate as much as possible.

Trying to not hit the batters, our pitcher kept missing the plate outside. When the third batter in a row leaned out over the plate our pitcher stepped off the rubber and motioned to the catcher a "what am I supposed to do now gesture?"

Our catcher yelled out, "If they keep leaning out over the plate - just hit them."

The opposing coach started yelling that our catcher was telling our pitcher to intentionally hit batters... I stepped out of the dugout and yelled down to him, "You can't yell out to the pitcher to hit the batter".

He shrugged his shoulders, asked for time and went out to the mound. He then went through a pantomime with the pitcher of a batter leaning over and getting hit with the pitch. The opposing coach went nuts again...

Our catcher got back behind the plate, and the pitcher struck out the batter on three straight fastballs down the middle.

When he came back into the dugout, I asked the catcher what the show on the mound was about. He said, "Oh, just wanted him to think we were going to hit him - worked didn't it?"

Rob,
Reminds me of a story... years ago..

Coaching third for a majors LL team that rarely lost, late in the season, close game late, we're hitting, get a few guys on, the player due up is a 12yr old very animated brainiac with zero athletic or baseball ability playing majors only because it was a small town league and nowhere else to put him (and we loved him!) Batting avg. - zero for the season.

He had to use the bathroom (located beyond center field) between innings, so when his name got called to hit, he came running in, full stride, perfect Forrest Gump imitation, all the way from center, baseball belt tightened firmly just below his chest, most of the jersey letters hidden in his pants. Huge eyeglasses bouncing, hanging on only by the fat Croakie strap. Both sides, fans and players, cheering him on as if he was rounding the bases.

He finally gets situated, looks down to me for the signs. I figure the only chance he has at success is to bunt and move the runners. I give him the sign (twice to the indicator). He steps further out and, making absolutely sure he got the sign, holds up two fingers and then clearly shows me his best bunting form (as if to ask "Is this what you want me to do, coach?"). Pretty good crowd, laughed for another few minutes.

Time out. Change of plan. After everyone was finished laughing, he managed a clunker over 1b and after several misplaced throws, we win and he's the hero. Every kid on the team could not have been happier for him or had more fun than that game. My favorite youth sports moment.

Sorry, back to the OP subject... very interesting how there are many well-respected posters on both sides of this one.