beemax,
Refreshing to hear you say all of that. I totally agree with every word. Especially the terminology you use to describe it all!
I agree that solid (physical) swing mechanics are critical. But in my opinion, the mental side of hitting (base running and position play too) is just as, if not more important. Though it may be harder to prove on video, it exists and is very teachable. Even to teenagers.
In my opinion, an intelligent hitter with questionable swing mechanics will consistently out perform an ignorant hitter with perfect swing mechanics (regardless of level).
Please keep sharing your experiences on the mental and situational side (physical too). We need it bad. You offer a different perspective being a current professional player that will mean a lot to coaches and parents trying to prepare young players for their next level.
THop
What about a "C" student with high level mechanics.
I would hope that once a batter is in the box, good swing mechanics are what is in muscle memory. It should be second nature by that time requiring no thought.
While advancing the runner is the primary goal, I would have hoped that we would have started with the runner on first before proceeding with a runner on third scenario.
Sadly in pro ball, I have seen far too many batters hit up the middle with a runner on first. It is self defeating as both infielders are leaning to the middle for the double play when the ball is pitched.
Also with the runner going, I do not see batters hitting to the area that should be vacated by the cover man.
And probably the first line of offense to advance a runner is always the often forgotten art of bunting.
.
While advancing the runner is the primary goal, I would have hoped that we would have started with the runner on first before proceeding with a runner on third scenario.
Sadly in pro ball, I have seen far too many batters hit up the middle with a runner on first. It is self defeating as both infielders are leaning to the middle for the double play when the ball is pitched.
Also with the runner going, I do not see batters hitting to the area that should be vacated by the cover man.
And probably the first line of offense to advance a runner is always the often forgotten art of bunting.
.
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
What about a "C" student with high level mechanics.
It depends on his SAT and ACT scores as well.....and was he a C,C-, or C+ student? Was he in the Glee Club?....alot of factors to consider.
quote:Originally posted by beemax:
THop
Great post with the quotes from Chipper. IMO the most important thing said and most valid point to this thread was:
"Jones said he tried to focus on the SITUATION each at-bat, rather than worrying about upping his average with multihit games."
The thing about that approach is, if you go into each at-bat with a solid plan, (an approach to that at-bat based on what you have seen from the pitcher, what the situation is in the game, etc.) IMO you will hit your best. The numbers will take care of themselves with this approach.
Keep in mind that mechanics are out the window when you get into the batter's box. That is where all the hard work before and after games and during practice comes into play. You must rely on your muscle memory and go up to the plate with a solid mental approach. Don't get me wrong here, mechanics play a huge part in the swing, but you cannot think about your mechanics during your at-bat; if you do you will lose your focus on the job you have to accomplish.
The number of situations are endless but here is an example of one.
Runner on third base, less than two out, score tied late in the game.
Going up to the plate, what should be going through my head?
-Get a pitch up in the zone.
Why? Infield will be playing in and you want to get the ball in the air, if not a base hit to the outfield then a sac fly at the least.
-If I get a pitch up in the zone, what am I going to try and do with it.
Attack it! Hit it hard and get it airborne!
In this situation I will most likely be looking for a fastball up in the zone, but the pitch you look for always varies with the pitcher. If the guy throws a lot of first pitch breaking balls, then I might look for a breaking ball up first pitch, then go back to the fastball.
This year I hit significantly higher with runners on base. IMO this was because 99% of the time I knew exactly what my goal was with runners on (Move him from second to third with no outs, score him from third with less than two outs, etc.) and I knew what APPROACH I had to take to accomplish that goal. Many times when all you think about is "Okay, runner on second, nobody out, get a pitch to hit to right field and attack it," all of a sudden you have a base hit to right field and an RBI because you hit ACCORDING TO THE SITUATION. Your only goal was to get him to thrid and surprise! You ended up getting the job done and a little more because you took a winning hitter's approach and you didn't just think "Hit a home run." This is just a piece of the mental hitting puzzle, but hopefully you will see that behind each successful at bat and each good hitter is a sound and disciplined approach to each at bat. Just like Chipper Jones
bump
Chameleon,
I think when we talk about major league hitters, the best all have high level mechanics and are "A" students-of the game, not in a classroom of course. IMO, when people talk about hitters who seem to be "dumb" when it comes to hitting, two players come to mind, Vlad Guerrero and Manny Ramirez. This is purely a result of how they present themselves on the field. Believe me, their approach is as good as any, even though they just look like they are up there flailing away at pitches.
You'll have to excuse me if I fail to pick up on your sarcasm, for I have only been posting on here for a few weeks. I am well aware of your reputaton on here and I respect you immensely.
Again I am not sure if you were serious or joking by asking "What about a "C" student with high level mechanics," (I know my brother was with his response
) but IMO mechanics only carry you so far. If a hitter can combine top-flight thinking with great mechanics, you will reach your potential as a hitter. Having top-flight mechanics, however, and poor thinking will only carry you so far, and vise versa.
I love talking mechanics and the mental game, and I think both deserve equal time on these forms.
I think when we talk about major league hitters, the best all have high level mechanics and are "A" students-of the game, not in a classroom of course. IMO, when people talk about hitters who seem to be "dumb" when it comes to hitting, two players come to mind, Vlad Guerrero and Manny Ramirez. This is purely a result of how they present themselves on the field. Believe me, their approach is as good as any, even though they just look like they are up there flailing away at pitches.
You'll have to excuse me if I fail to pick up on your sarcasm, for I have only been posting on here for a few weeks. I am well aware of your reputaton on here and I respect you immensely.
Again I am not sure if you were serious or joking by asking "What about a "C" student with high level mechanics," (I know my brother was with his response
) but IMO mechanics only carry you so far. If a hitter can combine top-flight thinking with great mechanics, you will reach your potential as a hitter. Having top-flight mechanics, however, and poor thinking will only carry you so far, and vise versa. I love talking mechanics and the mental game, and I think both deserve equal time on these forms.
quote:Originally posted by beemax:
Chameleon,
I think when we talk about major league hitters, the best all have high level mechanics and are "A" students-of the game, not in a classroom of course. IMO, when people talk about hitters who seem to be "dumb" when it comes to hitting, two players come to mind, Vlad Guerrero and Manny Ramirez. This is purely a result of how they present themselves on the field. Believe me, their approach is as good as any, even though they just look like they are up there flailing away at pitches.
You'll have to excuse me if I fail to pick up on your sarcasm, for I have only been posting on here for a few weeks. I am well aware of your reputaton on here and I respect you immensely.
Again I am not sure if you were serious or joking by asking "What about a "C" student with high level mechanics," (I know my brother was with his response
I love talking mechanics and the mental game, and I think both deserve equal time on these forms.
How about Yogi Berra and Larry Walker? How smart do you have to be to see the ball and hit it? Concentrate on the spin and take each pitch one at a time, not the at bat as a whole. There really aren't that many different game situations that would have you changing your swing or philosophy when you come to the plate. Yes, you can take it to an intelligent level as far as remembering what a certain Pitcher threw you on what count in what situation, but you really don't need to. If you can work on your concentration level and focus on the spin of the ball on each pitch, your mechanics and athletic ability will take care of the rest. Come to think of it, just the act of studying Pitchers' tendancies may be all about making certain hitters more confident, which in turn, increases their focus and that is the real "intelligence" in using that in hitting.
Intelligent hitter, good mechanics, good memory about pitches in the same situation to other hitters and you self, looking for fast ball or breaking pitch depending on the count. All this is good stuff but if you enter to the batting box with all that in mind probably you are going to fail.
I love the natural hitter, the one that stand at home plate and swing without thinking, the one that make contact with the ball and doesn't have a technical explanation how he did it.
I know that not everybody is a natural hitter, but I know that everybody could be one. Hundreds of propers made swings (repetition of good mechanics,thinking on different situations, no in the middle of the game, but in practice) will made a hitter get his best level of hitting that his own natural skills allow him. At this point his swing always will be to the point where the ball is, and at the time that the ball is at the contact point, for this reason this hitter rarely is fooled, and rarely pull an outside pitch, etc... Am I talking about perfection?...yes,.... the only way to be good doing something it is to reach at least half of the way when pursuing perfection.
I love the natural hitter, the one that stand at home plate and swing without thinking, the one that make contact with the ball and doesn't have a technical explanation how he did it.
I know that not everybody is a natural hitter, but I know that everybody could be one. Hundreds of propers made swings (repetition of good mechanics,thinking on different situations, no in the middle of the game, but in practice) will made a hitter get his best level of hitting that his own natural skills allow him. At this point his swing always will be to the point where the ball is, and at the time that the ball is at the contact point, for this reason this hitter rarely is fooled, and rarely pull an outside pitch, etc... Am I talking about perfection?...yes,.... the only way to be good doing something it is to reach at least half of the way when pursuing perfection.
quote:Originally posted by Racab:
Intelligent hitter, good mechanics, good memory about pitches in the same situation to other hitters and you self, looking for fast ball or breaking pitch depending on the count. All this is good stuff but if you enter to the batting box with all that in mind probably you are going to fail.
I love the natural hitter, the one that stand at home plate and swing without thinking, the one that make contact with the ball and doesn't have a technical explanation how he did it.
I know that not everybody is a natural hitter, but I know that everybody could be one. Hundreds of propers made swings (repetition of good mechanics,thinking on different situations, no in the middle of the game, but in practice) will made a hitter get his best level of hitting that his own natural skills allow him. At this point his swing always will be to the point where the ball is, and at the time that the ball is at the contact point, for this reason this hitter rarely is fooled, and rarely pull an outside pitch, etc... Am I talking about perfection?...yes,.... the only way to be good doing something it is to reach at least half of the way when pursuing perfection.
I agree 100%! Nothing makes me madder than someone watching a called third strike right down the middle.
If I have a hitter who does not know his "job" every time he goes to the plate. He better completely tear it up or he won't be playing for long.
If a hitter with the winning run at 2B and no outs and no strikes is not looking for a pitch to go the other way (RHH) or a pitch to pull (LHH) then he really doesn't understand the game. This thinking is not done while he's swinging, it's done before he steps in the box. The pitchers will throw it inside to a RHH and try to get the ground ball/flyball to the left side in this situation.
Baseball is a thinking game. That includes the hitting part of it! Thinking is done before the mechanics ever get involved. I agree that anyone thinking about their mechanics while actually hitting is in big trouble.
Looking for certain pitches or certain locations is what 9 out of 10 good hitters do (IMO). That doesn't require any rocket science or even a lot of thinking. The situation CAN change what you should be "looking" for.
If a hitter with the winning run at 2B and no outs and no strikes is not looking for a pitch to go the other way (RHH) or a pitch to pull (LHH) then he really doesn't understand the game. This thinking is not done while he's swinging, it's done before he steps in the box. The pitchers will throw it inside to a RHH and try to get the ground ball/flyball to the left side in this situation.
Baseball is a thinking game. That includes the hitting part of it! Thinking is done before the mechanics ever get involved. I agree that anyone thinking about their mechanics while actually hitting is in big trouble.
Looking for certain pitches or certain locations is what 9 out of 10 good hitters do (IMO). That doesn't require any rocket science or even a lot of thinking. The situation CAN change what you should be "looking" for.
With runners on base I want my hitters to get at least "productive" outs, ie move the runner up a base.
I am with PG --the batter should know before he steps in to the box what he has to do
I am with PG --the batter should know before he steps in to the box what he has to do
Mic,
How about Yogi Berra and Larry Walker? Don't get me wrong, some great hitters were more cerebral than others, but Yogi didn't play in 14 World Series by not thinking out there. Larry Walker wasn't a career .313 hitter by only "seeing the ball and hitting it." I'm not saying you need to be a rocket scientist to hit well, but you do need to pay attention, especially in pro ball, when you are facing the same pitchers multiple times throughout the year. I never said take the at bat as a whole; you need to take it one pitch at a time, but keeping in mind what the GOAL of the at bat is. I also never said to change your swing according to the situation. It is all about how you approach the at-bat and that is ever-changing according to the count and situation.
"Yes, you can take it to an intelligent level as far as remembering what a certain Pitcher threw you on what count in what situation, but you really don't need to. If you can work on your concentration level and focus on the spin of the ball on each pitch, your mechanics and athletic ability will take care of the rest."
Why don't you need to remember what a certain pitcher threw you? Don't you think that would help? If you hammered a 1-0 slider the at bat before, would you look for the same pitch in that count the next at-bat? Probably not. This is what I work on with my teammates day in and day out.
I do agree that studying pitchers tendenicies can make hitters more confident. The more I can learn about the pitcher, the better idea I have of what he will throw me later in the game. If I have a better idea of what he will throw, I will be able to take a confident, aggressive swing at a pitch that I am looking for.
I played with guys that have been "See it and hit it guys," but the higher up I go in pro ball, the more those guys get weeded out. IMO you cannot be a consistent, productive hitter by just relying on your physical abilities. Again, this is not rocket science, it is just baseball savvy; paying attention to the pitcher and the situations of the game.
Mic, have you ever played pro ball?
How about Yogi Berra and Larry Walker? Don't get me wrong, some great hitters were more cerebral than others, but Yogi didn't play in 14 World Series by not thinking out there. Larry Walker wasn't a career .313 hitter by only "seeing the ball and hitting it." I'm not saying you need to be a rocket scientist to hit well, but you do need to pay attention, especially in pro ball, when you are facing the same pitchers multiple times throughout the year. I never said take the at bat as a whole; you need to take it one pitch at a time, but keeping in mind what the GOAL of the at bat is. I also never said to change your swing according to the situation. It is all about how you approach the at-bat and that is ever-changing according to the count and situation.
"Yes, you can take it to an intelligent level as far as remembering what a certain Pitcher threw you on what count in what situation, but you really don't need to. If you can work on your concentration level and focus on the spin of the ball on each pitch, your mechanics and athletic ability will take care of the rest."
Why don't you need to remember what a certain pitcher threw you? Don't you think that would help? If you hammered a 1-0 slider the at bat before, would you look for the same pitch in that count the next at-bat? Probably not. This is what I work on with my teammates day in and day out.
I do agree that studying pitchers tendenicies can make hitters more confident. The more I can learn about the pitcher, the better idea I have of what he will throw me later in the game. If I have a better idea of what he will throw, I will be able to take a confident, aggressive swing at a pitch that I am looking for.
I played with guys that have been "See it and hit it guys," but the higher up I go in pro ball, the more those guys get weeded out. IMO you cannot be a consistent, productive hitter by just relying on your physical abilities. Again, this is not rocket science, it is just baseball savvy; paying attention to the pitcher and the situations of the game.
Mic, have you ever played pro ball?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
If I have a hitter who does not know his "job" every time he goes to the plate. He better completely tear it up or he won't be playing for long.
If a hitter with the winning run at 2B and no outs and no strikes is not looking for a pitch to go the other way (RHH) or a pitch to pull (LHH) then he really doesn't understand the game. This thinking is not done while he's swinging, it's done before he steps in the box. The pitchers will throw it inside to a RHH and try to get the ground ball/flyball to the left side in this situation.
Baseball is a thinking game. That includes the hitting part of it! Thinking is done before the mechanics ever get involved. I agree that anyone thinking about their mechanics while actually hitting is in big trouble.
Looking for certain pitches or certain locations is what 9 out of 10 good hitters do (IMO). That doesn't require any rocket science or even a lot of thinking. The situation CAN change what you should be "looking" for.
I'm not talking about not looking for certain locations early in the count or even late in the count, but not certain types of pitches. You do not need to guess what type of pitch you are going to get. I also don't think it makes sense to try and hit an inside pitch to the opposite field just to hit behind a runner. A base hit is a base hit and an out is an out. I've seen many double plays on hit and runs because a RHH tried to take an inside pitch to right field and ended up hitting a flare to the second baseman. Why not rip that pitch to left field down the line or hit it out of the park? If you get the pitch, fine, do your job, but if you don't, do your job! Get a hit!
quote:Originally posted by beemax:
Mic,
How about Yogi Berra and Larry Walker? Don't get me wrong, some great hitters were more cerebral than others, but Yogi didn't play in 14 World Series by not thinking out there. Larry Walker wasn't a career .313 hitter by only "seeing the ball and hitting it." I'm not saying you need to be a rocket scientist to hit well, but you do need to pay attention, especially in pro ball, when you are facing the same pitchers multiple times throughout the year. I never said take the at bat as a whole; you need to take it one pitch at a time, but keeping in mind what the GOAL of the at bat is. I also never said to change your swing according to the situation. It is all about how you approach the at-bat and that is ever-changing according to the count and situation.
"Yes, you can take it to an intelligent level as far as remembering what a certain Pitcher threw you on what count in what situation, but you really don't need to. If you can work on your concentration level and focus on the spin of the ball on each pitch, your mechanics and athletic ability will take care of the rest."
Why don't you need to remember what a certain pitcher threw you? Don't you think that would help? If you hammered a 1-0 slider the at bat before, would you look for the same pitch in that count the next at-bat? Probably not. This is what I work on with my teammates day in and day out.
I do agree that studying pitchers tendenicies can make hitters more confident. The more I can learn about the pitcher, the better idea I have of what he will throw me later in the game. If I have a better idea of what he will throw, I will be able to take a confident, aggressive swing at a pitch that I am looking for.
I played with guys that have been "See it and hit it guys," but the higher up I go in pro ball, the more those guys get weeded out. IMO you cannot be a consistent, productive hitter by just relying on your physical abilities. Again, this is not rocket science, it is just baseball savvy; paying attention to the pitcher and the situations of the game.
Mic, have you ever played pro ball?
Bee,
You should get the DVD "Hitters on hitting" and listen to Larry Walker's own words. Just because you play pro ball doesn't make you an expert on hitting. When you become a MLB hitter by practicing what you are preaching, then you will be an expert. You like Ted Williams. I like Ted Williams. He studied pitchers. You study pitchers. Tony Gwynn studied pitchers. Larry Walker didn't! Alphonso Soriano doesn't! Shoeless Joe Jackson didn't! Bottom line is, if it works for you, by all means do it! I'm just saying, you don't have to do it to be a very good hitter.
To those who believe guessing on pitches is the only way to be a successful hitter,
What do you do if you have 2 strikes, a runner on third, down by one run in the bottom of the ninth, two out, you are guessing breaking ball away (since that is what this Pitcher has thrown you in this situation before) and he throws you a 95mph fastball on the inside corner? Oh, and this is the final game of the season and is for the Pennant. Do you; A. Watch it go by for strike three, drop your head and as you are walking back to the dugout think to yourself, "oh well, I had a good year anyway." B. Take a half hearted swing as it goes by. C. Hit a weak ground ball to the right side. D. Rip a line drive down the left field line.
Another question. Do you not think that Pitchers are studying hitters and tracking what they have thrown you in the past?
What do you do in the above scenario if they bring in a closer that you haven't faced before??? Do you use one of your life lines and phone a friend??? No! You see it and hit it! The first good pitch you see, right? That's the big flaw in this philosophy. If you predicate your hitting ability on studying Pitchers past performance and the cards don't fall your way, are you going to be confident in this type of at bat? I don't see how you can be. I would think your mind would be racing and your rear would be as tight as Mama's hat band!
What do you do if you have 2 strikes, a runner on third, down by one run in the bottom of the ninth, two out, you are guessing breaking ball away (since that is what this Pitcher has thrown you in this situation before) and he throws you a 95mph fastball on the inside corner? Oh, and this is the final game of the season and is for the Pennant. Do you; A. Watch it go by for strike three, drop your head and as you are walking back to the dugout think to yourself, "oh well, I had a good year anyway." B. Take a half hearted swing as it goes by. C. Hit a weak ground ball to the right side. D. Rip a line drive down the left field line.
Another question. Do you not think that Pitchers are studying hitters and tracking what they have thrown you in the past?
What do you do in the above scenario if they bring in a closer that you haven't faced before??? Do you use one of your life lines and phone a friend??? No! You see it and hit it! The first good pitch you see, right? That's the big flaw in this philosophy. If you predicate your hitting ability on studying Pitchers past performance and the cards don't fall your way, are you going to be confident in this type of at bat? I don't see how you can be. I would think your mind would be racing and your rear would be as tight as Mama's hat band!
quote:What do you do if you have 2 strikes, a runner on third, down by one run in the bottom of the ninth, two out
IMO - You go to the two strike approach talked about earlier.
This is much different than looking for a specific pitch or location. Also, looking for a pitch/location doesn't mean you've given up on everything else. But it's amazing how often hitters will get themself out swinging at a 0 strike breaking ball or other pitch out of the strike zone.
I think everyone would agree to being in attack mode when hitting. However being under control of aggressiveness is very important. IMO
quote:To those who believe guessing on pitches is the only way to be a successful hitter,
Mic, We all know there is more than one way to be a successful hitter.
quote:A. Watch it go by for strike three, drop your head and as you are walking back to the dugout think to yourself, "oh well, I had a good year anyway." B. Take a half hearted swing as it goes by. C. Hit a weak ground ball to the right side. D. Rip a line drive down the left field line.
I pick D. Next question please.
This is a pretty easy quiz!
With two outs there is no situational hitting.
You either keep the inning going or make an out.
.
You either keep the inning going or make an out.
.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:quote:A. Watch it go by for strike three, drop your head and as you are walking back to the dugout think to yourself, "oh well, I had a good year anyway." B. Take a half hearted swing as it goes by. C. Hit a weak ground ball to the right side. D. Rip a line drive down the left field line.
I pick D. Next question please.
This is a pretty easy quiz!
My kids a pitcher and even I picked D. This is easy!
quote:Originally posted by FrankF:quote:Originally posted by deemax:
[QUOTE]A. Watch it go by for strike three, drop your head and as you are walking back to the dugout think to yourself, "oh well, I had a good year anyway." B. Take a half hearted swing as it goes by. C. Hit a weak ground ball to the right side. D. Rip a line drive down the left field line.
I pick D. Next question please.
This is a pretty easy quiz!
Good answer! Now, if you can do it in this pressure cooker of a situation, why not do it on every pitch? You guessed, guessed wrong and were still successful. Why are you guessing??? You saw it and hit it!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:What do you do if you have 2 strikes, a runner on third, down by one run in the bottom of the ninth, two out
IMO - You go to the two strike approach talked about earlier.
This is much different than looking for a specific pitch or location. Also, looking for a pitch/location doesn't mean you've given up on everything else. But it's amazing how often hitters will get themself out swinging at a 0 strike breaking ball or other pitch out of the strike zone.
I think everyone would agree to being in attack mode when hitting. However being under control of aggressiveness is very important. IMOquote:To those who believe guessing on pitches is the only way to be a successful hitter,
Mic, We all know there is more than one way to be a successful hitter.
PG,
That's not what Beemax said. He said, the see it and hit it guys get weeded out as they try to move up the ladder. As far as hitters getting themselves out on 0 strike breaking balls out of the zone. My question to you would be, did they do that because they were guessing a different pitch? I am not against looking for a certain location on any count or a certain pitch (before you get in the box), you have two strikes to look at and 3 balls to hit the ball in a specific spot (i.e., in the hole at 2nd or short) but to guess what pitch is coming and where is kind of crazy, IMO. Unless you are trying to tee off on a first strike, I don't really see any gained advantage or at least the ends don't justify the risk.
Are you going to rip a line drive down the left field line if the pitch is on the outside? How about rip a line drive from the correct point of contact as determined by pitch location? Learning to read the pitch is better than guessing. Knowing what the pitcher likes to throw reduces the amount of reading a hitter has to do. Being able to hit with authority to all fields is the key, imho.
quote:Why are you guessing???
Guessing, or anticipating, goes hand in hand with proper thinking. -Ted Williams
For someone who admires Ted Williams as much as you do, you sure dont take his advice very seriously. Did Ted have all the answers? No. But he had more answers then anyone posting in this forum.
quote:With two outs there is no situational hitting.
You either keep the inning going or make an out.
True, but not entirely IMO. A hitter has a basic primary job to do in every AB.
1. Get on base, Move runner up, Drive in run, Get in to scoring position, etc.
With two outs and no one on base, the job is to drive the ball (extra base hit/home run)
Some might say this is always the job, but it's not always the primary job. And of course, this differs with the ability from one hitter to the next.
Lead off an inning - job is get on base. This hitter should be much more selective and will probably see more pitches. First is get on base, second is extra bases.
Runner on 3B 1 out, job is to score the run. If infield is giving the run (playing back) a ground ball gets the job done. If infield is playing in fly ball is the job.
Getting the job done is not simple. But knowing what it is, is simple.
These all go out the window with two strikes. I realize this goes against some thinking regards to hitting. But it goes on at every level every game. Thinking is and always will be part of baseball at every phase of the game. Only the very greatest can have a chance to get by without thinking.
There are two types of thinking. One involves preparation (preplanning). The other is more instinctive, the guy who instinctively seems to make the right decisions. (Willie Mays on the bases)
There is an old saying that is used a lot in baseball... Failing to prepare is preparing to fail!
Here is something else that is fairly common knowledge. The higher the level gets the less hitters swing! Some might think that's crazy but the proof is in the statistics. There are all kinds of first year pitchers who have unbelievable K-BB ratios in Rookie ball. As they move up their K-BB ratios aren't nearly as good (There's always exceptions to every rule). Rookie hitters swing at more pitches than vets. Veteran pitchers need to be around the strike zone more often.
Regarding golf... There are millions of people who play golf every day. Baseball players like to have fun too, especially in the off season. Many hunt and fish and many others golf. The hunting and fishing isn't done to improve their baseball skills and I doubt most baseball players are golfing to improve their baseball skills.
I know... Lots of opinions, that's what makes this stuff fun.
I think it was Stanford that charted every pitch, situation, result during an entire season.
I don't remember the exact results, but they showed the BAve, extra base hits, etc. on all counts, against all pitches in all locations.
Once again I don't remember the exact results, but I still would be willing to bet that BAves were higher against fastballs, than any other pitch. If that is true (which I don't know for certain) wouldn't that be a good reason to stay off the 0 strike breaking ball unless it just spun there in the zone for you? Wouldn't it be a good reason to set on the fastball with no strikes, in most cases?
If a pitcher has just one pitch (Mariano excluded) isn't he much easier to hit than the equal pitcher who has three quality pitches. Common sense tells me to look for one pitch (most always a fastball) in a certain location with 0 strikes. There are pitchers who could change that but that would be the exception to the rule.
Also, if we are talking about young hitters improving, I believe the above is even more important than if we are talking about MLB stars.
I don't remember the exact results, but they showed the BAve, extra base hits, etc. on all counts, against all pitches in all locations.
Once again I don't remember the exact results, but I still would be willing to bet that BAves were higher against fastballs, than any other pitch. If that is true (which I don't know for certain) wouldn't that be a good reason to stay off the 0 strike breaking ball unless it just spun there in the zone for you? Wouldn't it be a good reason to set on the fastball with no strikes, in most cases?
If a pitcher has just one pitch (Mariano excluded) isn't he much easier to hit than the equal pitcher who has three quality pitches. Common sense tells me to look for one pitch (most always a fastball) in a certain location with 0 strikes. There are pitchers who could change that but that would be the exception to the rule.
Also, if we are talking about young hitters improving, I believe the above is even more important than if we are talking about MLB stars.
Mic,
I never have claimed to be an expert on hitting. True, when I become a MLB hitter be using this I feel that it will hold more weight. But you said it yourself, Tony Gwynn and Ted Williams did it, so why do I need to defend this theory? If you want to teach kids to "see it and hit it," go ahead. IMO very few have used this to be successful, and no matter what Walker, Soriano, or Jackson (Did you talk with him?) said, they paid attention to what was going on. They never stepped in the box, looked oout at the pitcher, and said "Dang, its a right hander? I wonder what he's got?"
So if I am not an expert, but I play pro ball, and you say I will be an expert if I reach the Big Leagues, what does that make you, as it seems to be you haven't played pro ball?
I think you can teach mechanics without having played pro ball, but to teach proper thinking at the plate without having played pro ball doesn't fit as well for me. IMO you have to have been there to know what it is like, then you can form your best opinion. Sorry, but I think my opinion holds more weight for that fact.
I never have claimed to be an expert on hitting. True, when I become a MLB hitter be using this I feel that it will hold more weight. But you said it yourself, Tony Gwynn and Ted Williams did it, so why do I need to defend this theory? If you want to teach kids to "see it and hit it," go ahead. IMO very few have used this to be successful, and no matter what Walker, Soriano, or Jackson (Did you talk with him?) said, they paid attention to what was going on. They never stepped in the box, looked oout at the pitcher, and said "Dang, its a right hander? I wonder what he's got?"
So if I am not an expert, but I play pro ball, and you say I will be an expert if I reach the Big Leagues, what does that make you, as it seems to be you haven't played pro ball?
I think you can teach mechanics without having played pro ball, but to teach proper thinking at the plate without having played pro ball doesn't fit as well for me. IMO you have to have been there to know what it is like, then you can form your best opinion. Sorry, but I think my opinion holds more weight for that fact.
There are not too many real good hitters in baseball. From those that are realgood, there are some guessers and there are some see the ball, hit the ball hitters. Like somebody said, one system is good for some and vice versa.
It doesn't care what kind of hitter are you the principle of hitting mechanics are the same.
The problem with the guessing hitter is that the pitcher (who can and may think at every pitch) could easily note when a hitter is guessing) He is not so stupid to throw the pitch that the count it recommend. Major leagues it is not High School, the pitcher that can not throw a changeup in full count, or a slider on 2-0, or as a first pitch, can not be a Big league pitcher.
Pitchers, catchers and pitcher coaches call the pitches depending on multiple reasons:
1. History of past at bats.(including what the batter is specting depending on past at bats also)
2. How the hitter reacted to the last pitch. (it doesn't care the count, if the hitter was on the fast ball they aren't going to repited, or if was late, they are not to fallow with a changeup)
3. Game situation. (If the situation of the game needs the hitter to hit opposite side, the pitcher will pitch inside)
4. The whole thing it is to try to deceive the hitter. ( The pitcher can not deceive the hitter throwing every time what is suppose to be pitched)
The hitter that see, hit the ball, guess some times also, the difference it is, that he guess a spot not a pitch. If for the game situation he needs an outside pitch, he is going to wait for that outside pitch, but always is going to hit the natural way. Finally, when the pitcher is on, 80% of the time will get the out, and the best hitter (guesser or natural) is the one that never forgive the mistake of the pitcher.
To Beemax:
I am glad to have seen you hitting some times this year at Hagerstown, and to fallow your performance at Potomac. What a discipline at home plate, what a knowledge of the strike zone. Believe me, you say you are a guessing hitter, I don't know how a guessing hitter may be the kind of hitter that you are.
It doesn't care what kind of hitter are you the principle of hitting mechanics are the same.
The problem with the guessing hitter is that the pitcher (who can and may think at every pitch) could easily note when a hitter is guessing) He is not so stupid to throw the pitch that the count it recommend. Major leagues it is not High School, the pitcher that can not throw a changeup in full count, or a slider on 2-0, or as a first pitch, can not be a Big league pitcher.
Pitchers, catchers and pitcher coaches call the pitches depending on multiple reasons:
1. History of past at bats.(including what the batter is specting depending on past at bats also)
2. How the hitter reacted to the last pitch. (it doesn't care the count, if the hitter was on the fast ball they aren't going to repited, or if was late, they are not to fallow with a changeup)
3. Game situation. (If the situation of the game needs the hitter to hit opposite side, the pitcher will pitch inside)
4. The whole thing it is to try to deceive the hitter. ( The pitcher can not deceive the hitter throwing every time what is suppose to be pitched)
The hitter that see, hit the ball, guess some times also, the difference it is, that he guess a spot not a pitch. If for the game situation he needs an outside pitch, he is going to wait for that outside pitch, but always is going to hit the natural way. Finally, when the pitcher is on, 80% of the time will get the out, and the best hitter (guesser or natural) is the one that never forgive the mistake of the pitcher.
To Beemax:
I am glad to have seen you hitting some times this year at Hagerstown, and to fallow your performance at Potomac. What a discipline at home plate, what a knowledge of the strike zone. Believe me, you say you are a guessing hitter, I don't know how a guessing hitter may be the kind of hitter that you are.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:quote:Why are you guessing???
Guessing, or anticipating, goes hand in hand with proper thinking. -Ted Williams
For someone who admires Ted Williams as much as you do, you sure dont take his advice very seriously. Did Ted have all the answers? No. But he had more answers then anyone posting in this forum.
Like I said to PG, I don't have a problem with it first pitch, first strike. It won't matter if you look goofy when you guess wrong and it may allow you to sit back and drive an off speed pitch. My problem with it is when hitters try to do it on all pitches or any count. I think that when you get to the Big leagues, you will guess wrong more than you guess right and we have already established that you can still hit without doing it. Like I also said, when you sit and watch strike three because you got fooled, you are a fool.
quote:Originally posted by beemax:
Mic,
I never have claimed to be an expert on hitting. True, when I become a MLB hitter be using this I feel that it will hold more weight. But you said it yourself, Tony Gwynn and Ted Williams did it, so why do I need to defend this theory? If you want to teach kids to "see it and hit it," go ahead. IMO very few have used this to be successful, and no matter what Walker, Soriano, or Jackson (Did you talk with him?) said, they paid attention to what was going on. They never stepped in the box, looked oout at the pitcher, and said "Dang, its a right hander? I wonder what he's got?"
So if I am not an expert, but I play pro ball, and you say I will be an expert if I reach the Big Leagues, what does that make you, as it seems to be you haven't played pro ball?
I think you can teach mechanics without having played pro ball, but to teach proper thinking at the plate without having played pro ball doesn't fit as well for me. IMO you have to have been there to know what it is like, then you can form your best opinion. Sorry, but I think my opinion holds more weight for that fact.
I never claimed to be an expert either, I just take what MLB players say to be truthful. I guess you don't. But, Larry Walker (in his own words), said, "I don't think about what the Pitcher has, or who he is, I just see it and hit it. Sometimes I'll be singing Garth Brooks songs in my head or thinking how goofy that Pitcher looks, but most of the time I don't think about anything." That's what the man said and I take him at his word. Todd Helton believes what he said, so....! Tony Gwynn said he tried to hit the ball with the knob of the bat, I believe him, some on here don't. It is true that you have an advantage that you can experience your philosophy 1st hand and will get instant feed back on the results, but you don't have to have played to teach. John Madden never played Pro Football, but I'd say he was a pretty good Coach in the NFL and still makes a pretty good living being an ANALYST.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think it was Stanford that charted every pitch, situation, result during an entire season.
I don't remember the exact results, but they showed the BAve, extra base hits, etc. on all counts, against all pitches in all locations.
Once again I don't remember the exact results, but I still would be willing to bet that BAves were higher against fastballs, than any other pitch. If that is true (which I don't know for certain) wouldn't that be a good reason to stay off the 0 strike breaking ball unless it just spun there in the zone for you? Wouldn't it be a good reason to set on the fastball with no strikes, in most cases?
If a pitcher has just one pitch (Mariano excluded) isn't he much easier to hit than the equal pitcher who has three quality pitches. Common sense tells me to look for one pitch (most always a fastball) in a certain location with 0 strikes. There are pitchers who could change that but that would be the exception to the rule.
Also, if we are talking about young hitters improving, I believe the above is even more important than if we are talking about MLB stars.
PG,
The thing that actually turned me against guessing, was that I've seen so many kids swing at ball three on a 2-0 count or ball 4 on a 3-1 count because they expected (and have been taught) a fastball right down the middle. However, I'm still not saying it can't be done successfully, I'm just saying you don't HAVE to, IMO.
quote:Like I said to PG, I don't have a problem with it first pitch, first strike.
If you dont have a problem with guessing on the first strike, then .......
quote:The thing that actually turned me against guessing, was that I've seen so many kids swing at ball three on a 2-0 count
It contradicts itself. Maybe you meant something else?
quote:Originally posted by deemax:quote:Like I said to PG, I don't have a problem with it first pitch, first strike.
If you dont have a problem with guessing on the first strike, then .......quote:The thing that actually turned me against guessing, was that I've seen so many kids swing at ball three on a 2-0 count
It contradicts itself. Maybe you meant something else?
No, it's no contradiction at all. I said "first strike," they were swinging at balls.
This is a great thread,
Consider this: I think whether or not a hitter anticipates/guesses on a pitch has a lot to do with his abilities.
What I mean is: 1)How soon is the hitter able to recognize the pitch. 2)Bat speed & technique, can the hitter wait longer to recognize the pitch before he fires because of bat speed.
If these skills are average to below than the need to anticipate a pitch becomes greater.
If these skills are outstanding than anticipating a pitch may dilute his skills.
Most players probably fall somewhere in between. They might anticipate pitches on certain counts or against certain pitchers.
Not because they want to, but because they need to. I also doubt there are many pure free swingers out there that are successful. Even if your brain is the size of a peanut, it would be difficult to NOT think about what the pitcher might be bringing next. Or at a minimum thinking "If he throws me that, then I'm going to do this"
There is a lot of talk about Bonds swing and his mechanics. I believe Bonds greatest strenght is his freakish ability to recognize a pitch so early. When bonds swings on a pitch it looks like he knew that pitch was coming before he got out of bed that morning. Even more impressive is when he lays off a pitch, watch how early he does/did it. It has been a while since I have watched Bonds closely but a few years back, I sometimes couldn't believe what I was seeing. Of course he is fooled at times, everyone is.
btw. I havn't played MLB nor am I an expert...But I'm a pretty good student.
Again great thread, keep it going...........
Consider this: I think whether or not a hitter anticipates/guesses on a pitch has a lot to do with his abilities.
What I mean is: 1)How soon is the hitter able to recognize the pitch. 2)Bat speed & technique, can the hitter wait longer to recognize the pitch before he fires because of bat speed.
If these skills are average to below than the need to anticipate a pitch becomes greater.
If these skills are outstanding than anticipating a pitch may dilute his skills.
Most players probably fall somewhere in between. They might anticipate pitches on certain counts or against certain pitchers.
Not because they want to, but because they need to. I also doubt there are many pure free swingers out there that are successful. Even if your brain is the size of a peanut, it would be difficult to NOT think about what the pitcher might be bringing next. Or at a minimum thinking "If he throws me that, then I'm going to do this"
There is a lot of talk about Bonds swing and his mechanics. I believe Bonds greatest strenght is his freakish ability to recognize a pitch so early. When bonds swings on a pitch it looks like he knew that pitch was coming before he got out of bed that morning. Even more impressive is when he lays off a pitch, watch how early he does/did it. It has been a while since I have watched Bonds closely but a few years back, I sometimes couldn't believe what I was seeing. Of course he is fooled at times, everyone is.
btw. I havn't played MLB nor am I an expert...But I'm a pretty good student.
Again great thread, keep it going...........
quote:The thing that actually turned me against guessing, was that I've seen so many kids swing at ball three on a 2-0 count
Mic, Don't think we disagree altogether on this stuff. But unless a pitcher has proven he can throw a breaking ball for a strike, why wouldn't a hitter be looking for (expecting) a fastball? And if the hitter has a certain location he is geared in on, isn't he less likely to chase a pitch out of the strike zone.
I think everyone here would agree (maybe) that most pitchers control pitch is the fastball. There are exceptions, but if I don't know a pitcher, guessing/looking fastball at 2-0 gives the best percentage IMO. Even Larry Walker would be waiting for the fastball in his zone! If hitters could hit every pitch equally, there would be no reason that pitchers mix things up. There are certain counts where mixing it up is not as likely to happen.
Also I've noticed a lot of great hitters say things that can be a little off the wall at times. Then again, wasn't it Larry Walker who threw the ball in to the stands after only 2 outs?
He sure was an amazing player/athlete/hitter, though!quote:Originally posted by TripleDad:
This is a great thread,
Consider this: I think whether or not a hitter anticipates/guesses on a pitch has a lot to do with his abilities.
What I mean is: 1)How soon is the hitter able to recognize the pitch. 2)Bat speed & technique, can the hitter wait longer to recognize the pitch before he fires because of bat speed.
If these skills are average to below than the need to anticipate a pitch becomes greater.
If these skills are outstanding than anticipating a pitch may dilute his skills.
Most players probably fall somewhere in between. They might anticipate pitches on certain counts or against certain pitchers.
Not because they want to, but because they need to. I also doubt there are many pure free swingers out there that are successful. Even if your brain is the size of a peanut, it would be difficult to NOT think about what the pitcher might be bringing next. Or at a minimum thinking "If he throws me that, then I'm going to do this"
There is a lot of talk about Bonds swing and his mechanics. I believe Bonds greatest strenght is his freakish ability to recognize a pitch so early. When bonds swings on a pitch it looks like he knew that pitch was coming before he got out of bed that morning. Even more impressive is when he lays off a pitch, watch how early he does/did it. It has been a while since I have watched Bonds closely but a few years back, I sometimes couldn't believe what I was seeing. Of course he is fooled at times, everyone is.
btw. I havn't played MLB nor am I an expert...But I'm a pretty good student.
Again great thread, keep it going...........
I agree. Great post! I've heard Joe Garagiola (sp) say about Ted Williams that his knowledge of the strike zone or eye, was uncanny. He said he very seldom swung at a ball. John Cohen, Coach of The University of Kentucky told a story that when Bonds had his 73 homer year, that he only swung and missed 6 times after the All Star break. I find it hard to believe that he guessed right that many times. I agree that this has been a great thread and I see both sides. The thing I wonder though, is that if many of the hitters just trusted their vision more, they may improve. It's kind of like typing, if you never trust yourself to hit the right keys without looking at the keyboard, you're only going to get so good. This thread has made me think about this more though. I think, once the mechanics are learned, that confidence is the key to hitting. You can gain confidence in many ways, the most important of which is success. Focus, concentration, knowledge, wearing your lucky underwear, proper preparation (I would list studying Pitchers in this), visualization, all lead to confidence.
PG and beemax,
I appreciate your perspective and knowledge of the game and also appreciate you guys taking the time to share that with the rest of us.
How many times have you heard a player (that's hitting well) say "I'm seeing the ball really well"
Griffey Jr. last year after whiffing 3 times against a pitcher said this "the guy had me guessing all day" This tells me Griffey was not able to see/read this pitcher, thus he was forced to do something he doesn't want to do; guess.
I do believe that regardless of a hitters talent, there are times/situations that he will anticipate a pitch.
There is no black and white on this one. Every great hitter makes adjustments at the plate that is
RIGHT FOR HIM based on the situation; his ability, the pitchers ability, his focus that day, how well he has been hitting lately, the game situation, and yes THE COUNT.
I too appreciate each post they are all good. great stuff.
Griffey Jr. last year after whiffing 3 times against a pitcher said this "the guy had me guessing all day" This tells me Griffey was not able to see/read this pitcher, thus he was forced to do something he doesn't want to do; guess.
I do believe that regardless of a hitters talent, there are times/situations that he will anticipate a pitch.
There is no black and white on this one. Every great hitter makes adjustments at the plate that is
RIGHT FOR HIM based on the situation; his ability, the pitchers ability, his focus that day, how well he has been hitting lately, the game situation, and yes THE COUNT.
I too appreciate each post they are all good. great stuff.
PGStaff, you have a PM.. (2 actually)
quote:There is no black and white on this one. Every great hitter makes adjustments at the plate that is
RIGHT FOR HIM based on the situation; his ability, the pitchers ability, his focus that day, how well he has been hitting lately, the game situation, and yes THE COUNT.
TripleDad, I agree.....That is why, IMO, situational hitting should not be taught to hitters...
Coaches would do better by staying out of the way and just let the hitter do what he does............
In my opinion, situational hitting is taught (and expected) by EVERY college and professional hitting coach (as well as the better high school coaches) in America. And I have never been to a MLB academy in Latin America, but would bet good money it is included there as well.
I coach high schoolers and am one of those who choose to teach it (situational base running, pitching and defensive play too).
Would coaches do better by staying out of the way and just letting their pitcher stay on the mound when a ground ball gets hit between the first and second baseman? Or just let their 2b runner advance to 3b on ground balls between the shortstop and third baseman?
I don’t know beemax and deemax but I knew their dad (via the internet). And I would bet money they learned the following situational hitting skills early in their lives. And I know for a fact that kids can learn these (along with solid swing mechanics) before high school. And in my opinion it gives them a distinct edge.
1. Anticipate and capitalize (“smoke”) fast balls during fast ball counts and situations
2. Two strike swing/approach
3. Stand tall (if RH hitter) when runner steals 3b
4. Hit and run play
5. Hit behind lone 2b runner with no outs
6. Hit the ball in the air with runner at 3b (infield in)
7. Hit the ball up the middle with runner at 3b (infield back)
Bluedog, I think you could even charge a little more if you included these in your lessons.
THop
I coach high schoolers and am one of those who choose to teach it (situational base running, pitching and defensive play too).
Would coaches do better by staying out of the way and just letting their pitcher stay on the mound when a ground ball gets hit between the first and second baseman? Or just let their 2b runner advance to 3b on ground balls between the shortstop and third baseman?
I don’t know beemax and deemax but I knew their dad (via the internet). And I would bet money they learned the following situational hitting skills early in their lives. And I know for a fact that kids can learn these (along with solid swing mechanics) before high school. And in my opinion it gives them a distinct edge.
1. Anticipate and capitalize (“smoke”) fast balls during fast ball counts and situations
2. Two strike swing/approach
3. Stand tall (if RH hitter) when runner steals 3b
4. Hit and run play
5. Hit behind lone 2b runner with no outs
6. Hit the ball in the air with runner at 3b (infield in)
7. Hit the ball up the middle with runner at 3b (infield back)
Bluedog, I think you could even charge a little more if you included these in your lessons.
THop
Situation hitting and anticipating a pitch are two different things to me. Well. I take that back a little. A hitter will look for a certain pitch depending on count.
