First, HG, who deserves the credit for your development? Would you say it was one instructor? Was it a HS coach? Was it your college coach at Pepperdine? Was it your most recent instruction at the professional level? Finally, was it your most recent private instruction?
I don't know that SE takes any credit for any player's climb in professional ball or any other level of achievement. I'm a member of his private site and as such can say that rather than assuming credit, instead, he continues to have an interest in the development of those that he works with. I'd also suggest that it is a two way street. For example, my child has used his methods BUT we also send video at various intervals for him to view and make suggestions. There is no "one time fix" when it comes to any development in any sport. Any good instructor understands that as well as understands that the development of any player is not solely the responsibility or ability of one instructor. Also, any private instructor's tutelage/philosophy can be altered by the setting in professional ball. For example, each professional team has hitting instructors of which I'm sure also provide feedback to players. They can either then improve and/or hinder development depending upon their expertise. Therefore, to suggest that one instructor deserves all the praise or blame in any professional's development is simplistic at best. JMHO!
quote:Originally posted by YHF:
You guys are hilarious. Anyone who's been on this site a few months knows exactly who this 'sticky' is about. CoachB25 is an admitted Englishbey supporter as can be seen in the "Case in Point" thread currently going on. There's nothing wrong with that. He's honest about it, which I appreciate.
For you newer participants here on HSBBW, there are two primary hitting camps here..(1) Richard's group (hittingillustrated.com) and (2) Englishbey's group (englishbeyhitting.com). I would suggest that readers here visit both of these sites to learn about hitting. Also visit batspeed.com, mikeepsteinhitting.com, and others.
The problem in this particular HSBBW section is that CoachB25 devised some "guide" which are "rules to follow" and posted them as a sticky. The intent of his suggestions is to direct you to the Englishbey side of the road which I'll demonstrate right here.....
I believe he's talking about Richard (and his supporters) and he says he's not. Well let's compare some of the suggestions CoachB25 wants you to follow and you make the call....
1. "Beware of anyone on this site who suggest that they and only they know the MLB swing."
This fits Richard to a 't' but could perhaps be said about a couple Englishbey guys too. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
2. "I'd seriously ask them what their profession is."
I believe Richard owns a bar/billiards place in St. Louis. Englishbey's 'profession'... I believe he calls himself a hitting instructor and trainer. Perhaps the EH.com guys can tell us if he has a day job.
3. "BTW, if they suggest that they are an expert on the MLB swing, one great question would be, have they produced this in some format such as DVD? Do they demonstrate their ideas to the masses and are on the record in a format that can't be changed as they change their dogma?"
Richard doesn't have a DVD. Englishbey has more than one DVD.
4. "Do they present that philosophy to the masses in clinics?
As far as I know Richard has never done a clinic. Englishbey has done many of them.
5. "Are they actively teaching this method to students LIVE. If so, how many students? Finally, an appropriate question might be the level of success their students have achieved."
Richard has a small number of kids he works with (I believe it's just a handful). I'm pretty sure he hasn't worked with anyone who has played college ball or beyond. Englishbey has apparently worked with hundreds of players. I can't confirm this but Englishbey supporters on this site claim he has many players in college ball and MiLB now.
6. "Beware of anyone that has to post on this site in multiple identities. Come on. How absurd is that when you have to have hitting arguments with yourself to prove the validity of your point. LOSER!"
Richard has been on here under several names (Chameleon, Teacherman, etc.). I'm not aware of any others who have done this but CoachB25 claims others who support Richard do the same thing. I'm not aware of any EH.com guys using multiple IDs. If there have been some then CoachB25 should be able to tell us who they are. That way we'll know this wasn't directed just at Richard and his guys.
7. "Beware of anyone that when you do a search find that they have attacked posters on multiple sites with drastically opposite dogmas."
CoachB25 has accused Richard of this multiple times including the current "Case in Point" thread. I've never heard him accuse any other poster of doing this. If you have please name them.
8. "Beware of anyone shouting the Hanson Principle."
Richard definitely follows the Hanson Principle (i.e. compare anything you do hitting to what MLB hitters do to see if it follows their pattern). Perhaps Englishbey's supporters can tell us why they do not believe in the Hanson principle which they obviously don't.
So, my caution to readers here in the hitting section is this...CoachB25 and many other Englishbey supporters are on here trying to persuade you to follow them. Richard's supporters are doing the same. I would suggest you look at all sources if you're interested in learning. There's good information from more than one source. Best of luck.
Is it just me or is this post pretty rough on Richard? Says his work experience is bar owner rather than hitting instructor, says he has no organized available presentation of his beliefs, says he's never done a clinic and in fact has worked with very few kids on hitting, says he posts under multiple identities...frankly doesn't this sound like a very negative character assassination regarding Richard's credentials as a hitting instructor and human being? I think this guy is yanking our chain. No way he's a Richard supporter after posting such an attack thinly veiled as support of Richard. Seems to me we should have known he was pulling our leg when he posted that Richard definitely follows the Hanson principle. Pretty clever satire on his part.
By the way, the originator of the Hanson principle is an Englishbey guy. And yes, we are all going to see different things in video due to our prior beliefs, our training etc. Same as players and coaches and gurus disagree. That's the point of the Hanson principle. It's a tool for the average dad to decide which guru to believe. It's an imperfect tool but the best one I've come up with so far.
MarkH, I could have clarified on the "Hanson Principle" that what one sees is not necessairly what you will see or agree with. Video is only pertinent in the eye of the beholder and their agenda.
The point you made is valid and you should know which "camp" follower generated the "Hanson Principle."
I've read that reply several times you comment on and it is essentially calling me a liar. I didn't have any one person in mind. I've told the truth about those observations. Posters on this site, in the past, have posted under several identities both here and on other sites as well. I've caught them via IP checks. I know one other Moderator on another site has done the same. Ironically, those comments made in specific points (perhaps not as a whole) could have applied to people who are dead fast supporters of Epstein, Yeager, and yes Richard. Yet, it is pointed out that I'm attacking Richard. That wasn't and isn't the case.
While we're at it, Steve and I have often talked about my role here. Mostly from me bringing it up. He understands that I'm not going to use this site as a promotional tool for any one "camp." Not only does he agree, he has NEVER asked me to do so. During specific arguments, I ahve asked him to use an excerpt in an argument. He has allowed me to do so WHEN it doesn't violate the trust others have in his site. BTW, I don't keep it a secret what I do with my child per instruction. We've had a lot of success. I was asked to Moderate this forum because the owners of this site thought that I would do my best to be fair. That is what I've done.
Finally, I don't confine friendship to "camps." I've talked to, pm, emailed others who are in "camps" I don't belong to. Some of us follow each other's children to see how they are doing. Some members have been very gracious and supportive of what I have to do here as a moderator. I don't often participate in discussions anymore since posters have suggested that I'm partial to Steve's camp and so, infringe upon others with my discussion. That is a shame since I often think that I would like to post more here. When I do post, I wait for the attacks. I guess that is the nature of the beast. I don't have to be "right" in everyone else's eyes. I do what I know is best for my child and the kids I coach. I put on hitting clinics for high school coaches and coaching clinics in general. Two Fridays ago, I spoke to over 300 coaches in a clinic on coaching in general. I hope that what I have to offer here is of value to posters.
The point you made is valid and you should know which "camp" follower generated the "Hanson Principle."
I've read that reply several times you comment on and it is essentially calling me a liar. I didn't have any one person in mind. I've told the truth about those observations. Posters on this site, in the past, have posted under several identities both here and on other sites as well. I've caught them via IP checks. I know one other Moderator on another site has done the same. Ironically, those comments made in specific points (perhaps not as a whole) could have applied to people who are dead fast supporters of Epstein, Yeager, and yes Richard. Yet, it is pointed out that I'm attacking Richard. That wasn't and isn't the case.
While we're at it, Steve and I have often talked about my role here. Mostly from me bringing it up. He understands that I'm not going to use this site as a promotional tool for any one "camp." Not only does he agree, he has NEVER asked me to do so. During specific arguments, I ahve asked him to use an excerpt in an argument. He has allowed me to do so WHEN it doesn't violate the trust others have in his site. BTW, I don't keep it a secret what I do with my child per instruction. We've had a lot of success. I was asked to Moderate this forum because the owners of this site thought that I would do my best to be fair. That is what I've done.
Finally, I don't confine friendship to "camps." I've talked to, pm, emailed others who are in "camps" I don't belong to. Some of us follow each other's children to see how they are doing. Some members have been very gracious and supportive of what I have to do here as a moderator. I don't often participate in discussions anymore since posters have suggested that I'm partial to Steve's camp and so, infringe upon others with my discussion. That is a shame since I often think that I would like to post more here. When I do post, I wait for the attacks. I guess that is the nature of the beast. I don't have to be "right" in everyone else's eyes. I do what I know is best for my child and the kids I coach. I put on hitting clinics for high school coaches and coaching clinics in general. Two Fridays ago, I spoke to over 300 coaches in a clinic on coaching in general. I hope that what I have to offer here is of value to posters.
CoachB25, I don't know how long you've coached but its sounds like you've had much success over a long period of time so I would think some people would listen. You seem to have studied your profession or love and have quite a bit of knowledge about it. However I know the most overcoached part of baseball is hitting and the most undercoached is defense and baserunning. I've coached for 10 years, coaching as many as 3 teams a year. I've coached college, high school, american legion, put on numerous camps, and given lessons to all ages. I don't consider myself an expert however I have had alot of success and talked to many in the baseball profession about all aspects. My teams have had a large amount of success at the plate and furthering their careers. How much of it is due to my coaching, I doubt it would be as much as many coaches would like to take credit for. However if someone wants to argue hitting they must understand the actions of swinging a bat efficiently. One can swing a bat very inefficient and still have success to a certain level.
When I first started coaching I came across Epstein and his videos, they were to me the bible on hitting and made the most since at the time (around 2001). Up until that point I had the most success teaching his torque drill along with the other drills. As I coached longer and began to understand and comprehend the complexities of the swing I soon figured out that ***** and then Englishbey had it figured out. As one friend put it Epstein is a 200 college level hitting course and Englishbey and ***** would be a 500 level hitting course. Very complex and hard to understand at times but once you understand it you realize what you had been missing all of those years.
What I'm trying to say on hear is that I encourage Englishbey and recommend to many young coaches wanting to learn the action of swinging a bat efficiently. Many people get wrapped up and enamored in the hands and the style rather that the meat and potatoes because that is what is easy to talk about.
When I first started coaching I came across Epstein and his videos, they were to me the bible on hitting and made the most since at the time (around 2001). Up until that point I had the most success teaching his torque drill along with the other drills. As I coached longer and began to understand and comprehend the complexities of the swing I soon figured out that ***** and then Englishbey had it figured out. As one friend put it Epstein is a 200 college level hitting course and Englishbey and ***** would be a 500 level hitting course. Very complex and hard to understand at times but once you understand it you realize what you had been missing all of those years.
What I'm trying to say on hear is that I encourage Englishbey and recommend to many young coaches wanting to learn the action of swinging a bat efficiently. Many people get wrapped up and enamored in the hands and the style rather that the meat and potatoes because that is what is easy to talk about.
I always defer to Babe Ruth and his theory of hitting. He had always stated that "the swing in baseball is the same as the golf swing with the addition of the stride".
Today with lighter bats and stronger and bigger batters, the stride is often eliminated for merely a weight shift.
This leaves a few constants.
1) Grip the bat as you would a golf club.
2) Swing the bat as you would a golf club.
3) Finish your swing as you would a golf club.
The grip offers the greatest range of motion and thus greatest bat speed.
The swing is short to the hitting zone and long through it.
The follow through is well balanced and compliments the swing. This means that the swing ends approximately as high as it started.
Today with lighter bats and stronger and bigger batters, the stride is often eliminated for merely a weight shift.
This leaves a few constants.
1) Grip the bat as you would a golf club.
2) Swing the bat as you would a golf club.
3) Finish your swing as you would a golf club.
The grip offers the greatest range of motion and thus greatest bat speed.
The swing is short to the hitting zone and long through it.
The follow through is well balanced and compliments the swing. This means that the swing ends approximately as high as it started.
