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24 replies

Hitting Experts Round ???

CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
I've edited this into the form of a "Sticky." I've removed the first portion of this post in lieu of an informative sticky that should serve as a type of guide for those reading our site.

I've never proclaimed myself an "expert." I have coached hitting for over 20 years at the high school level and have had players achieve some pretty special stuff. As the moderator of this site, I do my best to avoid too much intrusion and/or pushing my hitting agenda. Every now and again, I will interject some idea for discussion or disagree with a statement. I will, however, also stop anyone on this forum that comes to it with an agenda to attack others. The instant any poster violates the policies they will either be censored or be banned. A few words of warning:

  • Beware of anyone on this site that proclaims themselves an expert. I think Socrates said it best when he suggested that the most intelligent people realize that they are ignorant.
  • Beware of anyone on this site who suggest that they and only they know the MLB swing. I'd seriously ask them what their profession is. BTW, if they suggest that they are an expert on the MLB swing, one great question would be, have they produced this in some format such as DVD? Do they demonstrate their ideas to the masses and are on the record in a format that can't be changed as they change their dogma? Do they present that philosophy to the masses in clinics? Are they actively teaching this method to students LIVE. If so, how many students? Finally, an appopriate question might be the level of success their students have achieved.
  • Beware of anyone that has to post on this site in multiple identities. Come on. How absurd is that when you have to have hitting arguments with yourself to prove the validity of your point. LOSER!
  • Beware of anyone that when you do a search find that they have attacked posters on multiple sites with drastically opposite dogmas. This would then only be justified by a narcissistic personality that doesn't care about right and wrong but instead about being recognized by the masses a some kind of hitting Guru.
  • Beware of anyone shouting the Hanson Principle. I recall the statement, "Numbers don't lie. The people counting the numbers do. I think that the same applies to various posters, their agendas and the truth.


All of the above is JMHO!

"Failure depends upon people who say I can't."  - my dad's quote July 1st, 2021.  CoachB25 = Cannonball for other sites.

Last edited {1}
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Y YHF100+ posts
Coach B25,

Your opinions about or problems with Richard really should not be posted as a 'sticky' at the head of the HSBBW hitting section, as though your opinions have the official endorsement of this community. You obviously have a horse in this race (given the love note I just read from you to Steve over at eh.com) and really, IMO, you should not be the moderator for debates in this forum.

There are many here, like myself, that are searching for answers and I want to hear ideas from everyone, Richard included. I have an Englishbey dvd, Epstein dvds, Cohen's dvd, etc. etc. etc. I found hittingillustrated.com in December and I find a lot of good information there, just as I do from these other sources.

For you or others to attempt to eliminate a particular point of view or 'hitting system' here is completely wrong and does a disservice to the HSBBW participants. If you want to start a thread condemning Richard or his point of view, then have at it and let the thread run its course. Posting shots at him as a 'sticky' is excessive.

As you said...it's JMHO.
Last edited by CoachB25
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
YHF, where in any of that did I mention Richard or any other person. In fact, I clearly stated some things that all should take into account regardless of philosophy they believe in. ALL would include me as well so where is my agenda present? I menitoned that I, myself, am not an "expert." How do you deduce that this is intended toward any one person? In fact, it is aimed at ALL POSTERS who present themselves as experts at the expense of our membership. Please take each example so listed and "refute" the contents either based on my personal agenda OR based upon the fact that said statement has not occurred on this site.

BTW, this "Sticky" was posted after discovering that one poster, who IS A CURRENT MEMBER, was, in fact participating in ONE THREAD UNDER TWO DIFFERENT IDENTITIES. He was doing so with another poster WHO HAS MULTIPLE IDENTITIES. My dislike for Richard had nothing to do specifically with this thread. ...AND THAT'S THE FACTS!

If you wish to hear Richard's ideas, go to Hitting Illustrated. It's that simple. I have no idea what that entails but I'm sure to get a convert, he'll wave the fee if there is such for his site. Google = Hitting Illustrated. Have fun.
Last edited by CoachB25
S ShawnLee10+ posts
YHF,

As Coach said, I don't see richard's name anywhere in the post. What I believe Coach has done is suggest intelligent questions to ask as a sort of litmus test. The internet is a great tool and a curse. Anyone can present his ideas and it's often difficult to determine who really has knowledge and who pretends. Often the most articulate are not the most knowledgeable.

You seem to think that richard fits the description of what Coach suggested you should be wary of. Read the description again and, if you really think that's someone you should follow then you certainly have the right to go right ahead. I'm not fan of richard myself, but he's not the only one that fits the description, just the most relentless.

As far as his ability as a moderator goes, I think it's a testament to his fairness that he lets posts like yours remain.
Y YHF100+ posts
You guys are hilarious. Anyone who's been on this site a few months knows exactly who this 'sticky' is about. CoachB25 is an admitted Englishbey supporter as can be seen in the "Case in Point" thread currently going on. There's nothing wrong with that. He's honest about it, which I appreciate.

For you newer participants here on HSBBW, there are two primary hitting camps here..(1) Richard's group (hittingillustrated.com) and (2) Englishbey's group (englishbeyhitting.com). I would suggest that readers here visit both of these sites to learn about hitting. Also visit batspeed.com, mikeepsteinhitting.com, and others.

The problem in this particular HSBBW section is that CoachB25 devised some "guide" which are "rules to follow" and posted them as a sticky. The intent of his suggestions is to direct you to the Englishbey side of the road which I'll demonstrate right here.....

I believe he's talking about Richard (and his supporters) and he says he's not. Well let's compare some of the suggestions CoachB25 wants you to follow and you make the call....

1. "Beware of anyone on this site who suggest that they and only they know the MLB swing."

This fits Richard to a 't' but could perhaps be said about a couple Englishbey guys too. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.


2. "I'd seriously ask them what their profession is."

I believe Richard owns a bar/billiards place in St. Louis. Englishbey's 'profession'... I believe he calls himself a hitting instructor and trainer. Perhaps the EH.com guys can tell us if he has a day job.


3. "BTW, if they suggest that they are an expert on the MLB swing, one great question would be, have they produced this in some format such as DVD? Do they demonstrate their ideas to the masses and are on the record in a format that can't be changed as they change their dogma?"

Richard doesn't have a DVD. Englishbey has more than one DVD.



4. "Do they present that philosophy to the masses in clinics?

As far as I know Richard has never done a clinic. Englishbey has done many of them.



5. "Are they actively teaching this method to students LIVE. If so, how many students? Finally, an appropriate question might be the level of success their students have achieved."

Richard has a small number of kids he works with (I believe it's just a handful). I'm pretty sure he hasn't worked with anyone who has played college ball or beyond. Englishbey has apparently worked with hundreds of players. I can't confirm this but Englishbey supporters on this site claim he has many players in college ball and MiLB now.


6. "Beware of anyone that has to post on this site in multiple identities. Come on. How absurd is that when you have to have hitting arguments with yourself to prove the validity of your point. LOSER!"

Richard has been on here under several names (Chameleon, Teacherman, etc.). I'm not aware of any others who have done this but CoachB25 claims others who support Richard do the same thing. I'm not aware of any EH.com guys using multiple IDs. If there have been some then CoachB25 should be able to tell us who they are. That way we'll know this wasn't directed just at Richard and his guys.


7. "Beware of anyone that when you do a search find that they have attacked posters on multiple sites with drastically opposite dogmas."

CoachB25 has accused Richard of this multiple times including the current "Case in Point" thread. I've never heard him accuse any other poster of doing this. If you have please name them.


8. "Beware of anyone shouting the Hanson Principle."

Richard definitely follows the Hanson Principle (i.e. compare anything you do hitting to what MLB hitters do to see if it follows their pattern). Perhaps Englishbey's supporters can tell us why they do not believe in the Hanson principle which they obviously don't.


So, my caution to readers here in the hitting section is this...CoachB25 and many other Englishbey supporters are on here trying to persuade you to follow them. Richard's supporters are doing the same. I would suggest you look at all sources if you're interested in learning. There's good information from more than one source. Best of luck.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by YHF:
You guys are hilarious. Anyone who's been on this site a few months knows exactly who this 'sticky' is about. CoachB25 is an admitted Englishbey supporter as can be seen in the "Case in Point" thread currently going on. There's nothing wrong with that. He's honest about it, which I appreciate.


First, I'd like to suggest that I do my best to remain neutral. No, I won't remain neutral when people continue to do a diservice to the truth. Truth defined as what I know to be the truth regardless of "camp" I belong to. Those that have posted here know that I have edited, censored and disciplined members of both camps. Don't let the facts get in the way. Some might recall a member last fall asking where his posts went. He would be considered a PCR guy. BTW, he is also a moderator. However, I removed those posts and sent a pm AS I DO EVERYTIME I EDIT, DELETE OR TAKE ANY OTHER ACTIONS. To his credit, he understood. I am offended by your attack on my character. Please feel free to use the ignore button on any of my posts. Please feel free at any time to report my actions to MN-Mom. Certainly, this is a free site and so, you're not out any should you decide that I act heavy handed and so, you decide to take your posting activities elsewhere. To be blunt, this sticky will remain AND it is not directed at any camp unless you can demonstrated how the term "ANY POSTER" is related to specific people. I will further state that "ANY POSTER" CAN RELATE TO ME AS WELL! Therefore, don't trust anything I say unless you check out all of the other statements to follow and are satisfied as to my intent.

quote:
For you newer participants here on HSBBW, there are two primary hitting camps here..(1) Richard's group (hittingillustrated.com) and (2) Englishbey's group (englishbeyhitting.com). I would suggest that readers here visit both of these sites to learn about hitting. Also visit batspeed.com, mikeepsteinhitting.com, and others.


Excellent recommendation. I'd suggest the same.

quote:
The problem in this particular HSBBW section is that CoachB25 devised some "guide" which are "rules to follow" and posted them as a sticky. The intent of his suggestions is to direct you to the Englishbey side of the road which I'll demonstrate right here.....


Laughable at best! The intend is to do exactly what this sticky suggest. Nothing more or less.

quote:
I believe he's talking about Richard (and his supporters) and he says he's not. Well let's compare some of the suggestions CoachB25 wants you to follow and you make the call....


FYI, some of Richard's supporters are my friends. FYI, Donny (Swingbuster) and I continued a friendship by phone and email until the tragedy. In fact, we emailed each other approximately 1 week before. I would never ask those in the other camp to post here such evidence. Guess you'll have to take my word on that. Of course the insinuation is that I'm less than scrupulous and so...

quote:
1. "Beware of anyone on this site who suggest that they and only they know the MLB swing."

This fits Richard to a 't' but could perhaps be said about a couple Englishbey guys too. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

I appreciate the benefit of a doubt. I need to get a dictionary to figure out what "anyone" means. In my inability to use the English language, I assumed "anyone" could mean Tom, Richard OR Scott, JJA, 4x4 ...

quote:
2. "I'd seriously ask them what their profession is."

I believe Richard owns a bar/billiards place in St. Louis. Englishbey's 'profession'... I believe he calls himself a hitting instructor and trainer. Perhaps the EH.com guys can tell us if he has a day job.


BBscout was a SCOUT! When he wrote about things like how to count frames, I listen. Note HE WAS A SCOUT! I do think that the ability of one to actually take theory and DO IT IN REAL TIME WITH REAL HITTERS IS IMPORTANT! And so, you criticize me for this?


quote:
3. "BTW, if they suggest that they are an expert on the MLB swing, one great question would be, have they produced this in some format such as DVD? Do they demonstrate their ideas to the masses and are on the record in a format that can't be changed as they change their dogma?"

Richard doesn't have a DVD. Englishbey has more than one DVD.


How about Yeager? Epstein? et.al??? Is it wrong to suggest that if one professes to be an "expert" and also is excessively critical of others to at least produce that in some format to demonstrate their commitment to what they preach? Again, I could name SEVERAL NAMES here and not limited to any camp. Not to point out the obvious here but I don't have a DVD out. BTW, I can think of some who do not fall in either one of the two camps you mentioned. I'm hoping he won't mind me using his name but JBooth would be an example of someone who doesn't fall into any camp. I'm sure most posters can think of others who fit the bill.

quote:
4. "Do they present that philosophy to the masses in clinics?

As far as I know Richard has never done a clinic. Englishbey has done many of them.


So, it is wrong of me to ask if they present a philosophy, do they, in turn, go out to the public with that information and demonstrate it? Again, doesn't Epstein and one or two others do this? How about Yeager? Peavey?

quote:
5. "Are they actively teaching this method to students LIVE. If so, how many students? Finally, an appropriate question might be the level of success their students have achieved."

Richard has a small number of kids he works with (I believe it's just a handful). I'm pretty sure he hasn't worked with anyone who has played college ball or beyond. Englishbey has apparently worked with hundreds of players. I can't confirm this but Englishbey supporters on this site claim he has many players in college ball and MiLB now.


We all know who he has worked with. We know the success as well. However that isn't a factor here as much as again, theory into practice. So, your condemning me for actually expecting someone to practice what they preach!

quote:
6. "Beware of anyone that has to post on this site in multiple identities. Come on. How absurd is that when you have to have hitting arguments with yourself to prove the validity of your point. LOSER!"

Richard has been on here under several names (Chameleon, Teacherman, etc.). I'm not aware of any others who have done this but CoachB25 claims others who support Richard do the same thing. I'm not aware of any EH.com guys using multiple IDs. If there have been some then CoachB25 should be able to tell us who they are. That way we'll know this wasn't directed just at Richard and his guys.


Since you brought it up, NO, NO Eh.COM GUYS HAVE EVERY POSTED ON THIS SITE UNDER MULTIPLE IDENTITIES. I think it repulsive that some of the posters in the other camp have. I also have not called them out in public on this site. Makes me kind of wish I would now. However, YHF, since again, you're really attacking my character, the best thing to do is ask MN-Mom. She's the one that helps with the IP searches. SO THAT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS, I RUN EVERY DISCIPLINE ACTION, EVERY POTENTIAL CONFLICT PAST MN-MOM. Why? Because as sure as the sun comes out, one of Richard's followers such as YHF, will accuse me of heavy handed activities. Well, and there you have it! I will send a pm to MN-Mom after completing this post. I will ask her to allow another Moderator the opportunity to read the sticky. If they deem it "unfair" or an attack, I'll step aside and have it removed.

quote:
7. "Beware of anyone that when you do a search find that they have attacked posters on multiple sites with drastically opposite dogmas."

CoachB25 has accused Richard of this multiple times including the current "Case in Point" thread. I've never heard him accuse any other poster of doing this. If you have please name them.


To me,the key phrase is "attack." However, if we all thought about this, we could come up with more than one. In saying this, some can't because they don't know the various identities of some of these posters here and on other sites. Certainly Richard would fall into this category. I could suggest also that some identitites have multiple personalities using one password and identity. Thus, different dogmas. Of course, you'll suggest that this doesn't happen as well.

quote:
8. "Beware of anyone shouting the Hanson Principle."

Richard definitely follows the Hanson Principle (i.e. compare anything you do hitting to what MLB hitters do to see if it follows their pattern). Perhaps Englishbey's supporters can tell us why they do not believe in the Hanson principle which they obviously don't.


I can think of two or three besides Richard that scream Hanson Principal constantly and yet, they disregard comments by people realted to those video when those comments don't meet their agenda. I might state that recently on BBF, I commented that we need the "Butler Principle" in addition to the "Hanson Principle." The "Butler Principle" would require that when making a point on video that the video requirment would be same type of pitch, same location of pitch and same speed of pitch. Jake Patterson, Moderator of that site, commented on this suggestion. CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT RICHARD IS NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO POST ON THAT SITE. THEREFORE, NUMEROUS MEMBERS SHOUTING "HANSON PRINCIPLE" AND NO RICHARD.

quote:

So, my caution to readers here in the hitting section is this...CoachB25 and many other Englishbey supporters are on here trying to persuade you to follow them. Richard's supporters are doing the same. I would suggest you look at all sources if you're interested in learning. There's good information from more than one source. Best of luck.


First, and to be clear, Darrell Butler is a scum ******* dog that abuses his power on hsbaseballweb and so, ...

Now that I have that out of the way, my suggestion here for everyone is to checkout my posts. You'll get a good grasp on what I believe in and my agenda. I can't count the number of times I've made this assertion but I'll do it one more time, I'm not an expert. How's that for you YHF? I will say this, and since my credibility has been called into question, I'll put my resume up with anyone on this site.
Last edited by CoachB25
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by YHF:
You missed the entire point, which is obvious by how much anger is in your post.


I've asked MN-Mom to allow either herself or another Moderator to look at the content of this thread (sticky) and should they find either an attack on any one individual or my personal agenda to then remove it. That's the best I can do. Per the anger, yes. However, most is "matter of fact" other than the opening and closing paragraphs.
Y YHF100+ posts
There are two points really to what I'm saying to the unknowing readers here.

First, the crafting of your questions/points in the sticky, if answered truthfully, make the point (intended by you or not) that Englishbey has credibility and Richard does not. There's no other way for me to read it. I've been around here for 2+ years so I have a pretty good idea on the history here.

Second, being in a particular hitting camp and being the moderator is a fine line. This hitting section is the most difficult section to moderate on this site because of the continuing arguing among the same people over and over. You choose to jump into the arguments and make points about what you believe, which would be fine if you weren't the moderator. I may be alone in thinking this (and that's fine if so) but when you argue for Englishbey's methods and argue against Richard's methods, being the moderator gives your posts a higher level of credibility to the average reader. Some will assume that since you're the moderator that whatever you're for is good and whatever you're against is bad.

My issue with that is that certain readers may like what you say and move down the road toward an Englishbey swing philosophy. That might serve them well or it might not. But to me, it's more important to look at all possible sources, hittingillustrated.com included. And I don't want any readers discouraged from looking everywhere, including Richard's site.
Last edited by YHF
MN-MomMN-MomHSBaseballWeb Owner
I am not a hitting expert, but I have a lot of experience in observing hitting discussions. Smile

My honest opinion is that CoachB25 described, in his first post in this thread, some common sense rules for considering ANY advice you read on the Internet, whether that advice pertains to baseball, or with slightly different terminology, to advice on health, careers, investing, etc.:
  • Be cautious about those who claim to have the only correct answer.
  • Check their credentials if they claim to be experts.
  • Research whether their beliefs are constantly changing or appear consistent over time.
  • Consider whether they hide behind anonymity or multiple identities.
  • Look at whether they are known for bad-mouthing or bashing others.


That advice all sounds like common sense to me, and I can't see how it attacks any one individual. If YHF thinks it attacks Richard because YHF thinks Richard is identified in those points...I dunno, I can only shake my head about that one, and let you draw your own conclusions.


CoachB25 is a very good moderator who does a very important volunteer job here on the HS Baseball Web. He is a chief moderator of two of the toughest forums here, Hitting and Illinois. Without his generous support of this community, we would be in big trouble. Is he perfect, or perfectly unbiased? I doubt it. I know I'm not. I can't help but form some opinions of situations and of people, based on their past actions.

Are moderators required to have no opinions of their own? Of course not. How would that work? Here we go:

JOB OPPORTUNITY: Great job, no pay, benefits include people insulting you, etc. Must have no personal opinions on the topic being discussed in the forum you moderate, but must be willing to commit to moderating for long periods of time so that your knowledge of the community and context can assist you in doing a thankless job. PLEASE APPLY WITHIN
Wink Wink

I could go on for a while on this topic, but I'll just stop now and say Thank You to CoachB25 and the other moderators who try to keep this forum a pretty special place for all of us. I appreciate you!
Smile

Julie
Last edited by MN-Mom
d8d81,000+ posts
I can not claim to be in either camp. I just teach hs players how to hit and play the game.

For you guys that think your way is the only way to get the job done.....you are insane. Pick any level from t-ball to MLB and you will see extremely successful players doing it different. I believe truly excellent coaches have the knowledge and know how to get all players to perform to their maximum. And to say you can clone/cookie cut every single player to do it exactly the same way shows your actual knowledge of the game.
d8d81,000+ posts
Sorry guys, I did not mean to butt into your conversation about who knows most or which is the best way to do things. I think this is a great site and I filter through the negativity and gather some good information.

I guess I should have been more PC and used the old saying.....We seek not to imitate the masters, rather we seek what they sought.
H HGMember
quote:
Originally posted by YHF:
Englishbey has apparently worked with hundreds of players. I can't confirm this but Englishbey supporters on this site claim he has many players in college ball and MiLB now


I don't need many, could you try and find out just one name of a player at any level of pro ball that is curretnly using either Namyn or Englishbey's philosophy? I asked the question on another board to SE and it was ignored. Just curious.
Thanks
Last edited by HG
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
First, HG, who deserves the credit for your development? Would you say it was one instructor? Was it a HS coach? Was it your college coach at Pepperdine? Was it your most recent instruction at the professional level? Finally, was it your most recent private instruction?

I don't know that SE takes any credit for any player's climb in professional ball or any other level of achievement. I'm a member of his private site and as such can say that rather than assuming credit, instead, he continues to have an interest in the development of those that he works with. I'd also suggest that it is a two way street. For example, my child has used his methods BUT we also send video at various intervals for him to view and make suggestions. There is no "one time fix" when it comes to any development in any sport. Any good instructor understands that as well as understands that the development of any player is not solely the responsibility or ability of one instructor. Also, any private instructor's tutelage/philosophy can be altered by the setting in professional ball. For example, each professional team has hitting instructors of which I'm sure also provide feedback to players. They can either then improve and/or hinder development depending upon their expertise. Therefore, to suggest that one instructor deserves all the praise or blame in any professional's development is simplistic at best. JMHO!
MH Mark H100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by YHF:
You guys are hilarious. Anyone who's been on this site a few months knows exactly who this 'sticky' is about. CoachB25 is an admitted Englishbey supporter as can be seen in the "Case in Point" thread currently going on. There's nothing wrong with that. He's honest about it, which I appreciate.

For you newer participants here on HSBBW, there are two primary hitting camps here..(1) Richard's group (hittingillustrated.com) and (2) Englishbey's group (englishbeyhitting.com). I would suggest that readers here visit both of these sites to learn about hitting. Also visit batspeed.com, mikeepsteinhitting.com, and others.

The problem in this particular HSBBW section is that CoachB25 devised some "guide" which are "rules to follow" and posted them as a sticky. The intent of his suggestions is to direct you to the Englishbey side of the road which I'll demonstrate right here.....

I believe he's talking about Richard (and his supporters) and he says he's not. Well let's compare some of the suggestions CoachB25 wants you to follow and you make the call....

1. "Beware of anyone on this site who suggest that they and only they know the MLB swing."

This fits Richard to a 't' but could perhaps be said about a couple Englishbey guys too. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.


2. "I'd seriously ask them what their profession is."

I believe Richard owns a bar/billiards place in St. Louis. Englishbey's 'profession'... I believe he calls himself a hitting instructor and trainer. Perhaps the EH.com guys can tell us if he has a day job.


3. "BTW, if they suggest that they are an expert on the MLB swing, one great question would be, have they produced this in some format such as DVD? Do they demonstrate their ideas to the masses and are on the record in a format that can't be changed as they change their dogma?"

Richard doesn't have a DVD. Englishbey has more than one DVD.



4. "Do they present that philosophy to the masses in clinics?

As far as I know Richard has never done a clinic. Englishbey has done many of them.



5. "Are they actively teaching this method to students LIVE. If so, how many students? Finally, an appropriate question might be the level of success their students have achieved."

Richard has a small number of kids he works with (I believe it's just a handful). I'm pretty sure he hasn't worked with anyone who has played college ball or beyond. Englishbey has apparently worked with hundreds of players. I can't confirm this but Englishbey supporters on this site claim he has many players in college ball and MiLB now.


6. "Beware of anyone that has to post on this site in multiple identities. Come on. How absurd is that when you have to have hitting arguments with yourself to prove the validity of your point. LOSER!"

Richard has been on here under several names (Chameleon, Teacherman, etc.). I'm not aware of any others who have done this but CoachB25 claims others who support Richard do the same thing. I'm not aware of any EH.com guys using multiple IDs. If there have been some then CoachB25 should be able to tell us who they are. That way we'll know this wasn't directed just at Richard and his guys.


7. "Beware of anyone that when you do a search find that they have attacked posters on multiple sites with drastically opposite dogmas."

CoachB25 has accused Richard of this multiple times including the current "Case in Point" thread. I've never heard him accuse any other poster of doing this. If you have please name them.


8. "Beware of anyone shouting the Hanson Principle."

Richard definitely follows the Hanson Principle (i.e. compare anything you do hitting to what MLB hitters do to see if it follows their pattern). Perhaps Englishbey's supporters can tell us why they do not believe in the Hanson principle which they obviously don't.


So, my caution to readers here in the hitting section is this...CoachB25 and many other Englishbey supporters are on here trying to persuade you to follow them. Richard's supporters are doing the same. I would suggest you look at all sources if you're interested in learning. There's good information from more than one source. Best of luck.


Is it just me or is this post pretty rough on Richard? Says his work experience is bar owner rather than hitting instructor, says he has no organized available presentation of his beliefs, says he's never done a clinic and in fact has worked with very few kids on hitting, says he posts under multiple identities...frankly doesn't this sound like a very negative character assassination regarding Richard's credentials as a hitting instructor and human being? I think this guy is yanking our chain. No way he's a Richard supporter after posting such an attack thinly veiled as support of Richard. Seems to me we should have known he was pulling our leg when he posted that Richard definitely follows the Hanson principle. Pretty clever satire on his part. Wink

By the way, the originator of the Hanson principle is an Englishbey guy. And yes, we are all going to see different things in video due to our prior beliefs, our training etc. Same as players and coaches and gurus disagree. That's the point of the Hanson principle. It's a tool for the average dad to decide which guru to believe. It's an imperfect tool but the best one I've come up with so far.
Last edited by Mark H
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
MarkH, I could have clarified on the "Hanson Principle" that what one sees is not necessairly what you will see or agree with. Video is only pertinent in the eye of the beholder and their agenda.

The point you made is valid and you should know which "camp" follower generated the "Hanson Principle." Wink

I've read that reply several times you comment on and it is essentially calling me a liar. I didn't have any one person in mind. I've told the truth about those observations. Posters on this site, in the past, have posted under several identities both here and on other sites as well. I've caught them via IP checks. I know one other Moderator on another site has done the same. Ironically, those comments made in specific points (perhaps not as a whole) could have applied to people who are dead fast supporters of Epstein, Yeager, and yes Richard. Yet, it is pointed out that I'm attacking Richard. That wasn't and isn't the case.

While we're at it, Steve and I have often talked about my role here. Mostly from me bringing it up. He understands that I'm not going to use this site as a promotional tool for any one "camp." Not only does he agree, he has NEVER asked me to do so. During specific arguments, I ahve asked him to use an excerpt in an argument. He has allowed me to do so WHEN it doesn't violate the trust others have in his site. BTW, I don't keep it a secret what I do with my child per instruction. We've had a lot of success. I was asked to Moderate this forum because the owners of this site thought that I would do my best to be fair. That is what I've done.

Finally, I don't confine friendship to "camps." I've talked to, pm, emailed others who are in "camps" I don't belong to. Some of us follow each other's children to see how they are doing. Some members have been very gracious and supportive of what I have to do here as a moderator. I don't often participate in discussions anymore since posters have suggested that I'm partial to Steve's camp and so, infringe upon others with my discussion. That is a shame since I often think that I would like to post more here. When I do post, I wait for the attacks. I guess that is the nature of the beast. I don't have to be "right" in everyone else's eyes. I do what I know is best for my child and the kids I coach. I put on hitting clinics for high school coaches and coaching clinics in general. Two Fridays ago, I spoke to over 300 coaches in a clinic on coaching in general. I hope that what I have to offer here is of value to posters.
Last edited by CoachB25
On Base 14On Base 1410+ posts
CoachB25, I don't know how long you've coached but its sounds like you've had much success over a long period of time so I would think some people would listen. You seem to have studied your profession or love and have quite a bit of knowledge about it. However I know the most overcoached part of baseball is hitting and the most undercoached is defense and baserunning. I've coached for 10 years, coaching as many as 3 teams a year. I've coached college, high school, american legion, put on numerous camps, and given lessons to all ages. I don't consider myself an expert however I have had alot of success and talked to many in the baseball profession about all aspects. My teams have had a large amount of success at the plate and furthering their careers. How much of it is due to my coaching, I doubt it would be as much as many coaches would like to take credit for. However if someone wants to argue hitting they must understand the actions of swinging a bat efficiently. One can swing a bat very inefficient and still have success to a certain level.

When I first started coaching I came across Epstein and his videos, they were to me the bible on hitting and made the most since at the time (around 2001). Up until that point I had the most success teaching his torque drill along with the other drills. As I coached longer and began to understand and comprehend the complexities of the swing I soon figured out that ***** and then Englishbey had it figured out. As one friend put it Epstein is a 200 college level hitting course and Englishbey and ***** would be a 500 level hitting course. Very complex and hard to understand at times but once you understand it you realize what you had been missing all of those years.

What I'm trying to say on hear is that I encourage Englishbey and recommend to many young coaches wanting to learn the action of swinging a bat efficiently. Many people get wrapped up and enamored in the hands and the style rather that the meat and potatoes because that is what is easy to talk about.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
I always defer to Babe Ruth and his theory of hitting. He had always stated that "the swing in baseball is the same as the golf swing with the addition of the stride".

Today with lighter bats and stronger and bigger batters, the stride is often eliminated for merely a weight shift.

This leaves a few constants.

1) Grip the bat as you would a golf club.
2) Swing the bat as you would a golf club.
3) Finish your swing as you would a golf club.

The grip offers the greatest range of motion and thus greatest bat speed.

The swing is short to the hitting zone and long through it.

The follow through is well balanced and compliments the swing. This means that the swing ends approximately as high as it started.

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