Hitting Instruction

I'll start: Last summer The Kid played up and we ran into some pitching. Results were mixed but we knew we were going to have to do something or we would fall behind.

He's always been able to get on - great eye, contact hitter with speed. No or very little pop at all.

We looked around on the 'net and decided on Englishbey. A lot of it because he made sense and because he is in an area where we go anyway once a year.

We got the videos, joined the website and got video critiqued, then went for a visit.

I have never been a hitting instructor and was surprised about what I didn't know.

I have also looked at Epstein videos and they make sense as well.

I understand coaches don't have a lot of time to teach and even if they did, they would likely get lynched by parents of they tried to change anything. I was really reluctant to do it because he had success previously. We talked about it and the downsides. And they happened. It took longer than even I thought, but we are starting to see the results on the field now.

I don't know of another way to do it except for outside help. If they don't how long will they be competitive?

I really appreciate boards like this that provide feedback, as there are a lot of options out there and a lot of information, both good and bad. Hitting instruction has come a long way since my day.

One of the best things I ever did was get The Mental Keys to Hitting and make him read it. It really helped get us through the rough patch as we changed the swing.

Just some random thoughts about our experience over the last 6 months or so.

I have stated this many times over. If a player expects to go to the next level, now a days, just playing high school baseball will not get it done. This is unfortunate but gone are the days of multiple sport athletes. My goal is to aide in getting my players as far as they can and if that means they do better with a private hitting coach then they do better with a private hitting coach. There are so many types of swings and approaches that I think the worst thing a coach can fall into is an "approach". A coaches approach is what he comfortable with and is go to in a time of need. What if "the approach" doesn't work with a specific kid and his needs? I have a lot of players that use private hitting coaches. All I ask is the parents are honest with me and that I can verify that the private coach is on the up and up. I attempt to work with every hitter within there context. As a varsity coach I can never forget what put them on the map in my eyes. To many times coaches forget this and try to change a hitter into what they think they should be. I will always attempt to work within the boundaries of a hitter. Now this is never all peaches. I have had to tell parents face to face that they need to pick. My way or the highway and I will not deny this. I have only had to say it a couple of times and it was only because the kid continued failing over and over again because he was using the approach that the hitting coach was preaching.

Good stuff Coach. Do you have parents that ask for recommendations for hitting instructors? Do you give them? DO you talk to the instructors?

I see here and hear a lot of coaches complaining about parents (not saying you are here). I think the dynamic has changed at least in part because of this requirement for outside instruction. Parents have a lot of money and in some cases time working with the instructor - who will often listen more than a school coach because he is being paid directly if for no other reason.

They put this work in and then see it going another direction, so it's not hard to see why that is frustrating.

What I don't see is a lot of interaction/communication between the instructors and the coaches. Maybe we aren't there yet, but I feel like it is going to have to happen eventually.

As far as the multi sport athlete being gone, I'm not so sure it is unfortunate. With so much competition for their attention now, maybe it was inevitable. If they choose and aren't pushed to a particular sport, how else are they going to see their potential?

We only play baseball. His choice. I was happy about it, but if I had had to, I would have done the same thing in any other sport. It's our thing we can do together. I was lucky.

The Kid and I usually go early to practice to get hitting work in. We were working a specific drill one day and the Asst Coach of his summer team walked by and physically tried to move his hands in set up. He had no idea what drill we were doing, what the purpose of it was or anything else. Practice hadn't started yet. I was not happy.

My philosophy with the school coaches has always been "It's their team, you do what the coach says." Then I talk to the coach when given a chance. conversational about what we're doing, what he's been working on, what the coach would like to see. It seems to work ok but I have the time. And I know he can't do it for all the parents - they mostly aren't there.

I think a lot of the problem is communication.

I am not a high school coach, but a parent. Local school has a very good baseball program. Players are free to work with any outside instructor they want to, but the head coach is clearly the boss when you are on his field, playing for him. He realizes it is counterproductive to try to limit outside instruction, to be a control freak. He is a very good coach and baseball man. I think that if someone was getting bad instruction from the outside, they would be told as much. Coach has a lot of goodwill and respect. He sees outside instruction as a good thing since it is going to improve his players.


You could say there is a "preferred" hitting instructor who has access to the high school facilities. My son is pre-high school and we use the HS facilities with the instructor in the winter.

From what I read on this site, we have a very functional situation.

Indeed it would appear you do. I think it's great that your coach is on board. Thanks for sharing.

Texas1836,

You have a great program. My kids HS coach does not allow outside instruction. Why....don't know...ego?

See if this sounds familiar to anybody?
Coach does not want outside instruction but they don't really instruct their players very much at all. Players pitch to each other in the cages and maybe one pitch in 10 is hittable. So they get about 15 good swings a day. Some days they bring out the batting cage on the field and they each get two ABs. The instruction... after they finish hitting, one of the coaches tell them what they did wrong.
Why in the world is the coach against outside instruction? Any instruction would be better than what they do. I think kids sneak out to get instruction and the HS coaches pat themselves on the back thinking it's them that are making their players hit so well. In fact I know that's the case.

Have you tried asking him his reasoning?

Yep... "they don't want the players learning anything that's different than what they teach".

If I had told them that they don't really teach much of anything, they could take it out on my kid or not play him. After talking to other parents in the area with kids at different schools, they all say the same thing I'm saying.

Mmm, not good. Does he coach football as well?

Has he seen what the outside guy is teaching?

You're right of course, a fall out could very easily affect the player.

No he doesn't coach football.

I don't know if they ever found out what the other guys are teaching.

What do you guys think about the HS coach putting out a memo saying what his philosophy is, what he's looking for and some examples of those that teach that kind of hitting?

NDD - That may work. Needs to be worded so that players and parents do not feel like they have to pay outside $ for instruction. I take it you mean philosophy on outside instruction. Clarity is always a good thing in my book.

Providing examples of sanctioned instructors could get hairy depending on the specifics. But I can see the reason for doing so if the coach feels like he has to. I am probably naive as I do not see how or why people would use a bad or subpar instructor. All a person has to do is develop relationships in the baseball community and will find out who is trusted and legitimate. Like parents care (or should care) who their kid hangs out with, they should care about things like instruction whether it is hitting, piano, swimming or whatever.

I don't know about other areas but here in the Philadelphia tri state area most public school coaches are teachers who may or may not have played beyond high school themselves. Most probably wouldn't know rotational hitting from oscilating hitting. My point is they really don't know enough to instruct a kid on hitting. And I don't thing they really try to. Like someone above stated they do BP every day but with no instruction.

At my son's high school the coaches were nice enough guys but knew very little about the game or hitting. They seemed more concerned with how the team behaved in the dugout than winning sometimes. If a player wanted to improve his swing he has no choice but to go to an outside instructor. And I don't think the coach cared at all.

IMO the bottom line with this outside instructor option is that if a player is producing during the season, his high school coach doesn't care much what the kid does on his own time. And he shouldn't.

If I were a HS coach who didn't know much about hitting I would recommend hitting instructors to my players. If the players hit better, the team could do better and it makes me look better. Win, win, win.

Well, yeah, philosophy on outside instruction, but I was thinking more about hitting philosophy. Agree on wording it so they do not feel obligated.

Also agree about suggesting being complicated. The potential for misconceptions is high. Perhaps suggestion as examples at a higher level. For example, "My philosophy on hitting is XYZ. And example of an instructor that teaches this type of hitting would be the John Doe videos." Then if they ask the coach he could give some names of people in the area if there are any. Real general like.

I guess my point is it can be frustrating if one spends the time with an instructor just to find out the coach has an opposing philosophy. It hasn't happened to me, but it seems to be an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I don't know about other areas but here in the Philadelphia tri state area most public school coaches are teachers who may or may not have played beyond high school themselves. Most probably wouldn't know rotational hitting from oscilating hitting. My point is they really don't know enough to instruct a kid on hitting. And I don't thing they really try to. Like someone above stated they do BP every day but with no instruction.

At my son's high school the coaches were nice enough guys but knew very little about the game or hitting. They seemed more concerned with how the team behaved in the dugout than winning sometimes. If a player wanted to improve his swing he has no choice but to go to an outside instructor. And I don't think the coach cared at all.

IMO the bottom line with this outside instructor option is that if a player is producing during the season, his high school coach doesn't care much what the kid does on his own time. And he shouldn't.

If I were a HS coach who didn't know much about hitting I would recommend hitting instructors to my players. If the players hit better, the team could do better and it makes me look better. Win, win, win.

thanks for sharing. I agree that many coaches don't have a problem with it and are probably very glad it's happening. but as we can see it ranges from that one end to prohibiting it completely.

My guess is most probably land somewhere in the middle: Recognize the need and want the kind of instruction that will integrate into the overall philosophy of the team.

As far as the highschool is concerned my son is very fortunate. The coaches philosophy and mine are the same. He uses epstein drills as well as a few others that teach this same philosophy. My son started learning this when he was 8 and he is 12 now and he played freshman ball this year so I talked to the varsity coach for an hour 1 night and got a great understanding of his approach.

His thing is with the rec league. Most of the coaches are swing down extension guys so he has alot of work every year trying to get his players back where they were. He has tried to work with the league but they refuse. But he doesn't tell them not to play unless you are on his legion team.


I had a big fight with my sons rec coach over it. He was trying to change what he was being taught and told me not to teach him.I had to explain the philosophy and he had no clue that is what is being taugt even though his son plays on the same freshman team.

tfox,
Thanks for sharing. I know experiences are different everywhere. In our area rec ball is fine for a lot of players that are playing for fun, to have a summer activity, to socialize. It is, IMO, a disaster for those players that want to play seriously.

I appreciate fathers that take their time to volunteer. But the things I've heard and still hear as they watch the HS games from the stands.

"Throw your hands at the ball!" "Swing level!" and my all time favorite "Be the hero!"

I asked the other day if it happens in football as well and was told yes, but you don't notice as much because they are further from the field.

Your HS coach coaches your Legion team? I think that's great.

The one thing about Legion that I don't like: If during the Legion season your son goes to a showcase or pro tryout he becomes ineligible as a legion player.

The pro try out I can understand. I didn't think there was a blanket prohibition on showcases. Doesn't it depend on the type?

I found it.

quote:

Any American Legion Baseball player missing any portion of an American Legion tournament because that player participated in another non-sanctioned baseball event such as an exhibition game, tournament
showcase, combine or other youth programs shall be ineligible for post-season tournament play.

Yeah, I don't care for that rule much either. Although I do understand the commitment concept. It should be up to the coach.

NDD,
I will recommend private hitting coaches if asked and most of the hitting instructors I know by reputation either good or bad. In regards to checking them out from time to time I have requested to the parent that I sit in on a lesson to hear what is going on so I know what is being taught and how it is being taught. It also gives me a first hand look at whether or not it will or will not work for the kid.

In regards to the multiple sport athlete I agree that it was only a matter of time and if a kid wants to then he should specialize. I just hear way to many parents who have 8 yr old children say their kid is only going to play baseball. At that age I think it is ridiculous, IMO.

I love that level of communication! Going and watching a lesson or two is a great idea.

Have you reciprocated?

All of my practices are open and I have allowed private coaches to watch. My only thing is during practices with other players involved they need to stay off the field, out of the way, and they can not talk to any players. With that said I have done one on one lessons in the same manner that a private coach does with the hitting coach present. This allows for more communication than if they are at a practice. I have parents and coaches alike both shocked at my openness to deal with private coaches and the lengths I will go to help players. My job, bottom line, is to help these kids go as far as they can go in this game.

The hitting instruction I've received makes little to no sense "Chop down the tree!" "Watch the ball hit the bat" (admittedly not the worst) "The shortest path between two points is a straight line" (Great, but that isn't the quickest path).

I respect all coaches. The fact that they give up their time for little to no financial compensation is fantastic. Same thing with Little League and Babe Ruth coaches (even though there are some that you say "Yes, Sir/Coach" and then continue doing what you were doing before).

With regard to hitting instruction in my area, there isn't that much. (I don't live in a big baseball area) Of course, there are some clinics that George Mason puts on and some hitting clinics done by Epstein from time to time.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
All of my practices are open and I have allowed private coaches to watch. My only thing is during practices with other players involved they need to stay off the field, out of the way, and they can not talk to any players. With that said I have done one on one lessons in the same manner that a private coach does with the hitting coach present. This allows for more communication than if they are at a practice. I have parents and coaches alike both shocked at my openness to deal with private coaches and the lengths I will go to help players. My job, bottom line, is to help these kids go as far as they can go in this game.

Excellent! And I agree with your rules whole-heartedly. He should be sitting there taking notes for later work.

If I can get you past that desire to get your players HBP, we may come play for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
The hitting instruction I've received makes little to no sense "Chop down the tree!" "Watch the ball hit the bat" (admittedly not the worst) "The shortest path between two points is a straight line" (Great, but that isn't the quickest path).

I respect all coaches. The fact that they give up their time for little to no financial compensation is fantastic. Same thing with Little League and Babe Ruth coaches (even though there are some that you say "Yes, Sir/Coach" and then continue doing what you were doing before).

With regard to hitting instruction in my area, there isn't that much. (I don't live in a big baseball area) Of course, there are some clinics that George Mason puts on and some hitting clinics done by Epstein from time to time.

You mean the instruction/cues you've received from your school coaches?

Have you been to an Epstein clinic?

Lol NDD I can promise you that I would rather have a kid lace a ball in the alley for 2 RBI than lean into a pitch. I just do not want my kids jumping out of the way, and yes sometimes I actually mean jumping, out of the way of a pitch and being scared of the baseball.

tfox - you guys lost a legend in baseball coaching a few months ago didn't you? I was very sad to hear about Coach Wayne's passing. I only got to talk to him a few times for very short periods of time but you could tell he knew his stuff.

I will say this about the topic - I'm going to teach hitting in practice. I'm going to set up drills and work one on one with as many kids as I can. I realize it's not the best set up and this is why I keep my philosophy very simple - attack fastballs early and hit the ball hard where it's pitched. I don't get into philosophy of rotational, linear, Epstein, Lau or anybody else. Reason being their are constants in every philosopohy and that's what I teach. I'm not going to cookie cutter every kid and I'm not going to go out of my way to change something just to be changing.

If a kid wants to get help outside of what I teach then so be it. I'm not going to stop them. I can control the 2 - 3 hours we are practicing but outside of that I can't control it and I'm not going to dictate anything. If dad wants to take them to their backyard or wherever and work then so be it. The way I look at it is - if a kid is hitting lasers all over the field my coaching is going to consist of "atta boy" and "good job; keep it up". If it's due to my coaching then sweet. If it's due to someone else coaching then sweet. If it's due to a combonation of the two then.....you guessed it - sweet. Bottom line I have two goals 1) win and 2) get the kids to the next level.

I will say this - anything extra will not take place during my 2 - 3 hours of practice. Private coaches and dads will not come onto my field nor will players miss practice to get instruction.

If a kid isn't hitting then he's sitting (unless he's got a super glove then I'm going to hit for him)

Coach2709,
Thanks for contributing. I agree about people on the field. I think the place for fathers/instructors is in the stands observing. Taking notes. Quietly.

"if a kid isn't hitting he's sitting" - Mmmmmm. I get it. Perhaps patience is an old man's virtue.

Thanks again.

The best thing i have heard on this sunject is the plain fact that your coach makes the lineup, not your private instructor. If you aren't a coachable player, you will sit and i know i'm a player, but the thing parents should understand is too many voices in a kids ear isn't good for a player.

i have a pitching coach, i have the whole staff of high school coaches, i have a legion coach, and i have travle coaches. When someone gives me a tip, i say yes sir and try it out. If it helps, keep it. If not, then go back to what works. This summer, I was on a team with parents trying to coach from the stands and it gets too much. come game time, a player shouldn't be making drastic changes. he should be getting the job done and i don't quite know if a parent realizes what they are telling their kid isn't a rational game time correction. it just makes a kid focus on more than getting the job done

there is a time and place for a private coach and the ones i have been lucky enough to work with have helped me be better than i would be without them no doubt. but when a coach says something, the response "well my private coach says...." is unaccaptable. if you are asking them if they see it too then ok. but your private coach doesn't make the lineup.

just my .02

Thank you bigheat (got a fastball huh?),

It is nice to hear from yet another player. I couldn't agree more with the "instruction" from the stands. You should hear it from the stands, you probably miss some of it on the field. LOL.

And most of it is nervous, mindless babble. As I said before my all time favorite is "BE THE HERO!" shouted at a young player just before the pitch delivery. I was amazed. Another favorite is hitting instruction from the coaches box between pitches.

We are mostly discussing practice here, not so much during the game. And look at it like this, if you can learn to block out the screams of the dads and moms, you won't have much problem with 50K fans when you get to the show. LOL.

I have a confession, when the Rangers or Rockies are playing, I yell instructions at the TV. Mostly at the pitchers to throw strikes and pitch to contact.

Coach2709

Yes we lost a coach a couple months ago but he was no longer with our school. Too much to get in to but they did name the field after him.


My son is playing in the cal ripken ohio valley nationals right now.(I posted earlier in a rain delay)he started hitting well when I convinced the rec coach to leave him alone. He batted 540 with a homerun at state. He went 4-4 today. I only say this to point out to SOME coaches that less can be more. Allow the hitters to hit.

quote:

Originally posted by bigheat27-42:
The best thing i have heard on this sunject is the plain fact that your coach makes the lineup, not your private instructor. If you aren't a coachable player, you will sit and i know i'm a player, but the thing parents should understand is too many voices in a kids ear isn't good for a player.

i have a pitching coach, i have the whole staff of high school coaches, i have a legion coach, and i have travle coaches. When someone gives me a tip, i say yes sir and try it out. If it helps, keep it. If not, then go back to what works. This summer, I was on a team with parents trying to coach from the stands and it gets too much. come game time, a player shouldn't be making drastic changes. he should be getting the job done and i don't quite know if a parent realizes what they are telling their kid isn't a rational game time correction. it just makes a kid focus on more than getting the job done

there is a time and place for a private coach and the ones i have been lucky enough to work with have helped me be better than i would be without them no doubt. but when a coach says something, the response "well my private coach says...." is unaccaptable. if you are asking them if they see it too then ok. but your private coach doesn't make the lineup.

just my .02

Outstanding post and tons of good points. The one point I like most is about having too many voices saying what to do. It can get overwhelming hearing a thousand things a thousand ways. Which leads me to the next point you made that I liked. A player needs to understand what they can and cannot do; what is and what isn't comfortable on their own. Ultimately it comes down to if the player is comfortable and it's not going to cause harm. IF those two things are good to go and the kid is having success then don't overcoach them. Let them perform.

I hardly ever and I mean ever instruct during a game. By that point it's too late and any change would be counter productive to getting good results. I may remind a player about something we worked on but outside of that they either do it or they don't do it.

The problem I see with only having one person being the instructor is the player turns into a robot. Their head is filled with this step, then this step, then this step and then this step. It's good to hear coaching from a few different sources but need to be careful that it doesn't become overwhelming. Bottom line - if they produce they stay in the lineup.

NDD - not sure I understand where you're going with the "patience is an old man's virtue."

When I was younger and coaching, if they weren't hitting they were sitting. As I have gotten older, I have come to realize that in order to hit they have to have at bats and sitting on the bench never brought anybody out of a hard time. And knowing they are going to sit if they don't hit causes a great deal of pressure they certainly won't help - especially since the reason they aren't hitting is that they are probably pressing to begin with.

The Kid and I were talking about this tonight. In the Bigs, going 0-15 or even more is not that uncommon. There was a Bluejay that was 1-24.

If he goes 4 games without a hit it's 0-15, but it's 1/5 of his season and he probably won't even get there before he's benched. In a lot of ways the young players have it tougher.

Anyway, if they aren't hitting, sitting isn't going to change it.

Hitting is one of the few things in life where "try harder" makes it worse.

Well it's pointless to compare MLB to HS struggles due to the lack of at bats. You're right in that in the bigs you'll see an 0 - 15 and it's not a big deal but an 0 - 15 will kill you in a high school season. It can kill a team as well.

Let preface it by saying this - if I have a guy who is struggling but he's hitting the ball hard but at people or if he's having good at bats (lots of pitches, working counts, etc...) or if his swing looks good but he's not hitting I'm not going to take this guy out of the lineup until it gets drastic.

The kid who ain't hitting that's sitting is the kid who isn't producing at all. Weak contact, quick at bats and ugly swing - this kid will be sitting because he doesn't have it. It could be due to listening to too many people, not listening to anybody or just not having it period. This kid is going to sit until he can show me he can hit in practice and then he will get a chance.

The kid who looks good but for whatever reason isn't getting it done will get more leeway in terms of chances but at some point you do have to sit them. Get back to basics, get on the tee, take a break to find a more positive frame of mind, etc......

We can talk about development for the next level and all that but the name of the game is to perform in games and win them. It's not a individual opportunity to work through a lot of things. If you can't help the team win then somebody else has to be put in to help the team win. If that destroys your confidence then I have to question the mental toughness in the first place. Adversity is part of the game and you have to overcome. Dealing with adversity is handing the pressure that comes with not performing. Speaking for myself I'm not going to add to that (or try to) by telling them they need to start performing. It's something they have to deal with and if they don't then they need to sit.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
The hitting instruction I've received makes little to no sense "Chop down the tree!" "Watch the ball hit the bat" (admittedly not the worst) "The shortest path between two points is a straight line" (Great, but that isn't the quickest path).

I respect all coaches. The fact that they give up their time for little to no financial compensation is fantastic. Same thing with Little League and Babe Ruth coaches (even though there are some that you say "Yes, Sir/Coach" and then continue doing what you were doing before).

With regard to hitting instruction in my area, there isn't that much. (I don't live in a big baseball area) Of course, there are some clinics that George Mason puts on and some hitting clinics done by Epstein from time to time.

You mean the instruction/cues you've received from your school coaches?

Have you been to an Epstein clinic?

Yes, I mean the instruction/cues I have gotten from both school and Little League/Babe Ruth coaches.
I have not been to an Epstein clinic. I do own the book Mike Epstein on Hitting, as well as the CD, How to Hit Your Potential in 7 Days. He does clinics in my area from time to time (over at Pinkman)

I like the CD a lot more. Epstein, IMO, describes the MLB swing better than anybody else who has a DVD out there. (now that he's gotten away from the weight on the back foot)

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Well it's pointless to compare MLB to HS struggles due to the lack of at bats. You're right in that in the bigs you'll see an 0 - 15 and it's not a big deal but an 0 - 15 will kill you in a high school season. It can kill a team as well.

Let preface it by saying this - if I have a guy who is struggling but he's hitting the ball hard but at people or if he's having good at bats (lots of pitches, working counts, etc...) or if his swing looks good but he's not hitting I'm not going to take this guy out of the lineup until it gets drastic.

The kid who ain't hitting that's sitting is the kid who isn't producing at all. Weak contact, quick at bats and ugly swing - this kid will be sitting because he doesn't have it. It could be due to listening to too many people, not listening to anybody or just not having it period. This kid is going to sit until he can show me he can hit in practice and then he will get a chance.

The kid who looks good but for whatever reason isn't getting it done will get more leeway in terms of chances but at some point you do have to sit them. Get back to basics, get on the tee, take a break to find a more positive frame of mind, etc......

We can talk about development for the next level and all that but the name of the game is to perform in games and win them. It's not a individual opportunity to work through a lot of things. If you can't help the team win then somebody else has to be put in to help the team win. If that destroys your confidence then I have to question the mental toughness in the first place. Adversity is part of the game and you have to overcome. Dealing with adversity is handing the pressure that comes with not performing. Speaking for myself I'm not going to add to that (or try to) by telling them they need to start performing. It's something they have to deal with and if they don't then they need to sit.

I have this problem sometimes (actually a lot of the time) where I absolutely cream the ball in practice, but can't hit to save my life in an actual game.

My mechanics are improving, and a lot of the problems I've had involved flying open with the shoulders rather than allowing sequential rotation to occur.

Why do you think you do well in practice and not in games? Especially if you know what the problem is with the shoulders flying open.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Well it's pointless to compare MLB to HS struggles due to the lack of at bats. You're right in that in the bigs you'll see an 0 - 15 and it's not a big deal but an 0 - 15 will kill you in a high school season. It can kill a team as well.

Let preface it by saying this - if I have a guy who is struggling but he's hitting the ball hard but at people or if he's having good at bats (lots of pitches, working counts, etc...) or if his swing looks good but he's not hitting I'm not going to take this guy out of the lineup until it gets drastic.

The kid who ain't hitting that's sitting is the kid who isn't producing at all. Weak contact, quick at bats and ugly swing - this kid will be sitting because he doesn't have it. It could be due to listening to too many people, not listening to anybody or just not having it period. This kid is going to sit until he can show me he can hit in practice and then he will get a chance.

The kid who looks good but for whatever reason isn't getting it done will get more leeway in terms of chances but at some point you do have to sit them. Get back to basics, get on the tee, take a break to find a more positive frame of mind, etc......

We can talk about development for the next level and all that but the name of the game is to perform in games and win them. It's not a individual opportunity to work through a lot of things. If you can't help the team win then somebody else has to be put in to help the team win. If that destroys your confidence then I have to question the mental toughness in the first place. Adversity is part of the game and you have to overcome. Dealing with adversity is handing the pressure that comes with not performing. Speaking for myself I'm not going to add to that (or try to) by telling them they need to start performing. It's something they have to deal with and if they don't then they need to sit.

I agree with a lot of what you posted, some of it not at all. Pointless to compare them? When that is what they dream of doing? They are comparing themselves, the coaches, the game, everything. If we don't talk about it, where does that leave the player.

Everybody wants to win, nobody wants to be given up on. You just said it's pointless to compare them and then basically said winning is everything.

Hit or sit is what you originally said, now it seems there are caveats. Which is what I was getting at in the first place.

You really think hitting off a tee is going to solve a slump? Really? They don't not hit because of mechanics, they don't hit because of their heads. Sitting, more tee work, another 150 swings in the cage isn't going to fix that. If he hit yesterday and doesn't today, that's mental.

Quick at bats? When he's struggling? What else could we possibly expect. Let a pitcher get ahead in a count and he'll never see another pitch to hit. Ugly at bats? Of course they are - he's desperate.

You think sitting a 16 year-old is going to give him a more positive frame of mind?

You don't need to question the mental toughness of a 16 year-old boy. I can give you that answer on a silver platter.

When you sit them you are telling them they need to start performing and right now.

Yes, it's part of the game. I have never seen you coach. What I have seen is coaches that sit them and move on to the next task. And then what happens? One of two things - he either gets lucky and comes out of it in the next chance or he gets isolated and gives up.

Pointless to compare HS to the MLB? When in both of them apparently winning is everything?

Yes, it's part of the game and a part they have to learn. But do they learn better being dumped a full load of adversity or being vaccinated by being given smaller does they can handle?

If you sit a 16 year old and tell him "You're not hitting, as soon as you start, you'll play again." What is he going to do?

Try harder.

When the problem was he was already trying too hard.

We aren't talking about people that shouldn't have been on the team in the first place or who have never had success of course.

A 16 year-old is not a younger man. He is a 16 year-old. They are different.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I have this problem sometimes (actually a lot of the time) where I absolutely cream the ball in practice, but can't hit to save my life in an actual game.

My mechanics are improving, and a lot of the problems I've had involved flying open with the shoulders rather than allowing sequential rotation to occur.

If you are creaming it in practice and not hitting it in the game, do you think the problem is mechanical? What do you think is the solution?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
I agree with a lot of what you posted, some of it not at all. Pointless to compare them? When that is what they dream of doing? They are comparing themselves, the coaches, the game, everything. If we don't talk about it, where does that leave the player.

Everybody wants to win, nobody wants to be given up on. You just said it's pointless to compare them and then basically said winning is everything.

Hit or sit is what you originally said, now it seems there are caveats. Which is what I was getting at in the first place.

You really think hitting off a tee is going to solve a slump? Really? They don't not hit because of mechanics, they don't hit because of their heads. Sitting, more tee work, another 150 swings in the cage isn't going to fix that. If he hit yesterday and doesn't today, that's mental.

Quick at bats? When he's struggling? What else could we possibly expect. Let a pitcher get ahead in a count and he'll never see another pitch to hit. Ugly at bats? Of course they are - he's desperate.

You think sitting a 16 year-old is going to give him a more positive frame of mind?

You don't need to question the mental toughness of a 16 year-old boy. I can give you that answer on a silver platter.

When you sit them you are telling them they need to start performing and right now.

Yes, it's part of the game. I have never seen you coach. What I have seen is coaches that sit them and move on to the next task. And then what happens? One of two things - he either gets lucky and comes out of it in the next chance or he gets isolated and gives up.

Pointless to compare HS to the MLB? When in both of them apparently winning is everything?

Yes, it's part of the game and a part they have to learn. But do they learn better being dumped a full load of adversity or being vaccinated by being given smaller does they can handle?

If you sit a 16 year old and tell him "You're not hitting, as soon as you start, you'll play again." What is he going to do?

Try harder.

When the problem was he was already trying too hard.

We aren't talking about people that shouldn't have been on the team in the first place or who have never had success of course.

A 16 year-old is not a younger man. He is a 16 year-old. They are different.

Seriously???? Are you really being serious with this?

The reason you can't compare MLB and HS 0 - 15's is due to the effect it can have on your batting average and confidence and probably win total for the team. It's NOT ok for a HS player to have an 0 - 15 because it will destroy him and the team but it's not really going to phase a MLB. An 0 - 15 in HS is about 2 weeks of the season whereas it's 3 - 4 games in MLB. There is a HUGE difference in those two.

Yes I believe getting back on a tee or other drills can solve a slump. I've seen it happen. I've also seen a day off help solve a slump. Nobody knows what causes a slump and there's no real cure for a slump. It's something you have to figure out and work through.

Of course there are caveats and I thought they would be understood but obviously not. There's a huge difference between a 4 - 4 with all duckfarts that get over the 2Bman and a 1 - 4 with all line shots where one got through. I've had days like these and felt better about myself on the 1 - 4 day than the 4 - 4. Other people I've played with and had play for me felt the same way. Yeah you can take some good from the 4 - 4 day but deep down you know you should do better. Using your "if he hit yesterday and doesn't today, that's mental" let me say first that this kid's not going to sit. That's one of those caveats that I guess went understood. Also, I don't think the day that you don't hit is a mental problem. He faced a better pitcher, the defense was positioned just right and other things like that first. If it was mental then the strongest person mentally may never get out.

If someone is desperate that tells me it's time for a day off to relax and get the mind right. If he's desperate do you think another 3 games will cure him? He's going to keep digging that hole deeper. I don't know how things are done with you but I'm not going to sit a kid without talking to them and tell them what's going on. I'm going to say "hey man you're struggling right now and I can see it's getting to you. I'm going to give you the day off and let you just chill today. Get back in a good mindset and support your team mates. You're back in there tomorrow." Now it's in their court as to how they handle it. If they want to see that as adding more pressure then they need to overcome it. If they want to see it for what it is then it will probably help.

I can't talk about what other coaches do but if a guy who has started at one point during the season has been sat down for performance I'm not going to give up on them. We're going to work during practice to get better but it's up to them. Are they going to do the work and are they going to show signs of improvement? If so then I'm going to give them another chance. But you also have to factor in if his replacement is tearing the cover off the ball. If the replacement is mashing then it will be harder to get back in the lineup. It's called competition not welfare.

I can't follow your line of thinking. What I'm reading is that if you have a player struggling you just leave them in the lineup and they will eventually fix it. If that's what you're saying then why do you have a bench? Why have players in reserve if you're only going to play the one's who start? You owe it to them to give them a chance when the starter fails. I wish I could say every guy I've pegged as a starter panned out but I've had guys who I thought were better and had the tools just not pan out but the replacement plays out of this world. So what's your solution here? Let's go with 8 positions on the field (pitching is it's own world) and you have one weak spot. Do you accept this and tell the guys on the bench thanks for wearing a uniform but you're sticking with the guy struggling or do you make a change to get production out of 8 instead of 7 positions?

You talk about destroying confidence and all that but when you leave a guy in the lineup you are killing the confidence of the guys on the bench. You're making them start to question the concept of the team. It will eventually destory your team. The guys on the bench will resent the starter because they aren't getting a chance and the other starters are going to resent him since he's not getting the job done. So where do they all eventually turn their anger towards???? The coach and the team crumbles.

What would it take for you to finally sit a guy struggling? It seems like a two week 0 - 15 struggle isn't it. Would you let him go three weeks or four weeks? By that point about 2/3 of the season's over and that guy has probably cost you several games. I'm not talking about getting the game winning hit in the bottom of the seventh. I'm talking about not driving in the run in the third inning or not getting on base to start rallies or things like that. When do you take them out?

There is nothing wrong with telling someone to try harder. It's part of the developing mental toughness things we all have to go through. Kids need to face adversity and learn to overcome it. They need chances to learn this but at some point you have to chalk it up to them not being able to learn it. Getting replaced might be the thing that clicks to get them to learn it or maybe it drives them away from the game. If it's the latter then they probably weren't going to make it anyway.

All a coach can do is give them a chance and opportunities to learn. That goes for everyone on the team including the bench players to step up if someone cannot take advantage of their chance.

A 16 year isn't a younger man but he's on the path to manhood. So he needs to learn how to become a man and how to handle failure. A man is going to face many more things way tougher in life than getting benched. He may lose his job, his parents are going to pass away, his wife may get sick or pass away, same with children and all kinds of other things. You need to be a man to handle those situations and you learn how to be a man when you're a teenager by working through whether they can hold onto a starting position because in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. It's part of the learning process to become a man. It's a smaller event at a younger time that seems like it's the world to them but it's preparation for the bigger things that life is going to throw at you. A good parent, teacher and coach will help them work through it when they are younger so they can learn to be a man.

I'm sorry but your post is coming across to me as a selfish parent. What's best for my son and leave him alone until he gets it. I don't really blame you because that's what you're supposed to do. But in the real world that's not how it works. You don't perform in your job they're not going to give you unlimited chances to get it done. They're going to fire you and go to the bench to find someone who can.

I wrote a long reply and deleted it. I am not going to allow my responses to become personal nor am I going to play oneupmanship.

I will correct a misconception. I am not just a parent, I also coach. I have sat them, including my own. I have never said a word to any of his coaches about sitting him for any reason nor will I. I will tell him to ask them what he needs to work on if he does not already know and I will help him with whatever it is. I have never mentioned playing time to any of his coaches nor will I. I do not politic, play daddy ball, tell them positions, coach during games or practice. What I do do is sit and watch and listen. To everything.

I will also make a recommendation for you. Heads Up baseball and Mental Keys to Hitting. Not reading, studying.

We are off topic and going down a path which I did not intend to follow. I am back on topic.

Coach,
Your post above also shows, I think, yet another need for someone like an outside hitting instructor. A role that needs to be filled, yet cannot be filled by the team coach.

First if you had a long reply then put it on here, start another thread or send me a PM. I'm not trying to attack you but what you're putting doesn't make sense for the team and what's best for the team trumps everything.

Second I know about the make up of a person's psyche and confidence because I have a masters degree in it. I've read Heads Up and Mental Keys and I agree with a lot of things there but there are different ways to achieve the same goals. There's a difference between being tough and not nurturing the emotional side versus being tough and being able to nurture the emotional side.

Third this isn't meant to be an insult although it will probably come off as one. I'm glad you did all that stuff as a coach and stay hands off as a parent for your son but the fact of the matter is you're a dad first and always. Your son will come first no matter what and I believe that's a good thing. But it's not always what's best for the team and this is where coaches get fired from intrusive parents who have too many connections. I'm not saying this is you by no means but I've seen this way too many times.

We have strayed off topic and that's why I'm saying start another thread or shoot me a PM so we can continue to discuss. I'm not trying be a jerk here but I can't wrap my head around what I'm reading in terms of your ideas for a hitter. Maybe I'm reading it wrong or you're not getting the picture clear enough for me but what I'm understanding about what you're saying will not usually work in a team setting. I think the vast majority of coaches will agree with me. If I'm not understanding you correctly then I would like for this to be cleared up. I want to understand.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Why do you think you do well in practice and not in games? Especially if you know what the problem is with the shoulders flying open.

it's all confidence and approach. In practice, you are relaxed and hitting the ball is fun and doesn't matter but in a game, i'm guessing you tense up and aren't taking the right approach. This is probably what coach was trying to touch on with you.

And coach, there is a time and place for the "if you aren't hitting you're sitting" imho. Same as with all preformance. If a kid goes 0-3 in a game, that happens to the best hitters. but i do agree if that becomes a trend, he should be replaced by another player who gets the job done granted the fact that the replacement will get the job done in the field too. I really think it's about finding the right length of rope for a player. too short of a leash, and confdience is hurt which isn't going to fix the problem. too long of a leash and you just blew a game. and i'm glad you talk to the kid because that doesn't happen a lot and kids don't know what to fix which is why they lose confidence. i'm coming from observations so correct me if i'm wrong because you have probably dealt with this a lot more.

There are at least 3 points of view in any of these issues. Very rarely does any single one of them have the answer even though they all may think their point of view is the only one that counts. It usually takes something from all three.

The coach has to put the team first. The player needs somebody to put him first, especially when he is having issues.

Do you have a son that plays? Have you ever coached him?

quote:

Originally posted by bigheat27-42:
it's all confidence and approach. In practice, you are relaxed and hitting the ball is fun and doesn't matter but in a game, i'm guessing you tense up and aren't taking the right approach. This is probably what coach was trying to touch on with you.

And coach, there is a time and place for the "if you aren't hitting you're sitting" imho. Same as with all preformance. If a kid goes 0-3 in a game, that happens to the best hitters. but i do agree if that becomes a trend, he should be replaced by another player who gets the job done granted the fact that the replacement will get the job done in the field too. I really think it's about finding the right length of rope for a player. too short of a leash, and confdience is hurt which isn't going to fix the problem. too long of a leash and you just blew a game. and i'm glad you talk to the kid because that doesn't happen a lot and kids don't know what to fix which is why they lose confidence. i'm coming from observations so correct me if i'm wrong because you have probably dealt with this a lot more.

I wish I had posted that. Well done.

Have you seen more of too short or too long a leash?

How does a player going 0-4 cause a team to lose a game?

How many times have you guys seen a player in a slump try to come out of it by taking extra tee work or BP and ask a coach (or somebody else) to watch them. And then whoever is watching start trying to adjust mechanics?

How many times have you seen a coach sit down with a player and talk to him about his mental game that is causing the slump?

How many times have you heard a player discuss with his coach the fear of failure that is in his head?

How many times have you heard "RELAX!!!" screamed from a dugout?

How many times have you heard an outside hitting instructor say, "Ok, what's going on? What do you see in the box? What are you thinking?"

Oh and coach, it seems you think I am talking specifically about The Kid. I'm not.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I have this problem sometimes (actually a lot of the time) where I absolutely cream the ball in practice, but can't hit to save my life in an actual game.

My mechanics are improving, and a lot of the problems I've had involved flying open with the shoulders rather than allowing sequential rotation to occur.

If you are creaming it in practice and not hitting it in the game, do you think the problem is mechanical? What do you think is the solution?

Well, parts of it are mechanical (not coiling and opening the shoulders far too early, swinging up at the ball rather than swinging level with it)

Most of it was mental (not anticipating pitches correctly, often not watching the ball all the way in, failing to develop a two strike swing) However, I think a lot of my problems flowed from moving from a "linear" swing to a "rotational" swing.

As Yogi Berra said: "You can't think and hit at the same time". I was trying to think and hit.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Why do you think you do well in practice and not in games? Especially if you know what the problem is with the shoulders flying open.

In batting practice, there's one pitch to look for (so no anticipation) and the location doesn't vary tremendously. In a game, there are two or three pitches to look for, and the location changes rapidly. When I don't anticipate properly or see the ball well, I run into problems.

However, at the beginning of the year, I was a "spinner" (a one piece connected swing in which everything turns together), As the year went on, I became more sequential. Naturally, I didn't get enough swings in to make it automatic. I was forced to think about mechanics at the plate rather than think about the pitches coming in order to hit the ball. I also had an improper "Tip and Rip".

I was powering rotation with my shoulders rather than simply allowing them to rotate and using my hands. For the off-season, I'm hitting off a tee every day in order to make my mechanics more automatic and not have to worry about mechanics at the plate. I expect that my results will become much better next season.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Well, parts of it are mechanical (not coiling and opening the shoulders far too early, swinging up at the ball rather than swinging level with it)

Most of it was mental (not anticipating pitches correctly, often not watching the ball all the way in, failing to develop a two strike swing) However, I think a lot of my problems flowed from moving from a "linear" swing to a "rotational" swing.

As Yogi Berra said: "You can't think and hit at the same time". I was trying to think and hit.

If it is mechanical, how are you creaming it in practice? Are you using different mechanics during the game? Never mind, you answered above.

We went through "The Change" this past year (although I don't know what he was doing before was linear) and it was painful. It took a lot longer than I thought it would I think because I underestimated the muscle memory already developed. Sounds like the same progression we went through - raking in the cage, good in practice, lot of work to take it onto the field.

[

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
If it is mechanical, how are you creaming it in practice? Are you using different mechanics during the game?

We went through "The Change" this past year (although I don't know what he was doing before was linear) and it was painful. It took a lot longer than I thought it would I think because I underestimated the muscle memory already developed. Sounds like the same progression we went through - raking in the cage, good in practice, lot of work to take it onto the field.

I probably was still "spinning". I have no game film. My change took me nearly 7 months, and then I learned I was doing it improperly. It's been about 4 months since I learned I was doing it improperly, and since then, I've worked on fixing the damage that I did.

Even though muscle memory is a myth (when phrased as muscle memory), I know where you're coming from. I raked in the cage, did pretty well in practice, but I did terribly in games. Learning a new swing is one of the most difficult things to do because of the numerous incorrect repetitions.[/QUOTE]

Low finish,
If you don't mind my asking, what year/age/playing level are you? It's unusual that a young player is so well versed on the various schools of hitting and pitching.

A couple years ago with pitching i had too short of a leash and not enough time to work through the issues i needed to work through. this last year, i was able to get a ton of innings and am doing better than i ever have before. prettty much, i could walk four and get a chance to work out of it which i did 90% of the time. the other times it wasn't my day learn from it and move on. but my issues weren't mechanical. they were mental so the leash was a bit longer to asses the mental blocks and fix them.

the shorter leash i saw with a couple team mates. one actually quit after this year because he went through a huge slump at the plate and wasn't able to work through it. part of it though was because he didn't use his time in practice effectivly.

0-4 doesn't make or break a game. what i'm talking about is a player going 0-4 one game then 0-2 the next game and after that getting ****ed throwing his equiptment and he stops caring about what he is doing and doesn't care. he is taking up a spot from a kid who can produce or will give a better effort to produce. he doesn't hit for a little while, he clears his mind. and if the coach tells him why he is sitting, maybe he will work harder in practice to fix those problems. of course somstimes, the kid will get even more mad about why he is sitting and then the coach may need to talk to him a little more to fix whatever issues he has. either way. one kids attitude can be contagious through a team and that kind of attitude will not help win games.

Cabbagedad- I sent you a PM

bigheat,
Thanks for the response. We are not talking about throwing equipment, bad attitudes or not working. We are talking about the player that is trying. That is working.

On my team, throwing equipment - they sit. I don't care if they are batting .999.

Don't want to work? They go somewhere else.

When i was about 30, I would pull a pitcher for walking a lead-off hitter. Starting pitcher, first hitter. Did it a couple of times.

Now I wait to see if we get the 2 guy to ground into a double play. I'll ask him why and listen. Then once again explain that I don't care if the lead-off puts the ball into orbit, he will not be walked.

I get better results now.

quote:

Originally posted by bigheat27-42:

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Why do you think you do well in practice and not in games? Especially if you know what the problem is with the shoulders flying open.

it's all confidence and approach. In practice, you are relaxed and hitting the ball is fun and doesn't matter but in a game, i'm guessing you tense up and aren't taking the right approach. This is probably what coach was trying to touch on with you.

And coach, there is a time and place for the "if you aren't hitting you're sitting" imho. Same as with all preformance. If a kid goes 0-3 in a game, that happens to the best hitters. but i do agree if that becomes a trend, he should be replaced by another player who gets the job done granted the fact that the replacement will get the job done in the field too. I really think it's about finding the right length of rope for a player. too short of a leash, and confdience is hurt which isn't going to fix the problem. too long of a leash and you just blew a game. and i'm glad you talk to the kid because that doesn't happen a lot and kids don't know what to fix which is why they lose confidence. i'm coming from observations so correct me if i'm wrong because you have probably dealt with this a lot more.

big heat you're pretty close to what I'm thinking. I think Low Finish might be a great example of how drill work is the fix for his problem although on the surface it seems it's mental. It's still mental but my thinking is if he fixes the physical then the mental will fall into place. Obviously without seeing him and working with him I can't say this for a fact but I think it's a possibility.

Low Finish has changed his swing from one type to another type. The mechanics have changed and he now has to erase the old mechanics and put in the new ones. I think we all will agree that this is not an easy fix and will take time. Until he fixes the mechanical the mental will be a problem. When he gets in games he's going to think too much about what he needs to do for his swing. This will lead to the problem of not seeing the ball well. He's not confident with his new mechanics to let his body take over. In order for his body to take over he needs to do drills until the mechanics become second nature then he's got to take cuts until it's natural and finally it will translate into games on a more frequent basis. I have no idea where Low is at in this progression but he's in it. If he's hitting the ball well I will surmise a guess that's he's close to fixing it. BP is easy because it's one pitch, one speed and roughly one location. He can focus on his mechanics to take a good cut and hit it hard but in a game he doesn't have this luxury as people have pointed out.

When you're faced with this situation (I'm not going to call it a problem because it's not - it's a learning process) it doesn't matter how many times you let a guy hit in a game or how many times you talk to them on the side to hear how he feels or any of that. The player has to work through it with drills and cuts in the cage. He's got to develop that confidence in his body and the coach can help that by providing help during practice. Saying "atta boy - you almost have it" after striking out in the game won't allow this change to happen. It's going to make matters worse until the player is totally destroyed with everything - probably affect his fielding by this point.

Obviously you never want to make this change during the season but sometimes when you make the change in the offseason it hasn't set in by the start of the season. If you start out struggling with the new mechanics and you're hurting the team you have to sit down until you get it. Plain and simple.

If it's not a mechanical problem and truly mental then this is where a day off may help. Or possibly just getting into some drills to refresh the muscle memory to build that confidence back up.

You should never banish someone to the bench for a lack of performance but you owe it to the team to put someone in there until somebody finally steps up and performs. Maybe it's the guy who was struggling, maybe it's his replacement or maybe it's a third guy who steps in. Regardless a game is not the place to work on things and build confidence. Games will destroy confidence much faster than it will build it. This is why you have to develop the confidence before the games start. Sometimes that doesn't happen and the player will struggle.

Someone said something about coaches talking to players about sitting and stuff. I have no idea why a coach would never talk to a coach about a change. I don't see any other way of doing it. If the player knows exactly what's going on then he knows what he has to fix or do to get back in the lineup. Now if he wants to get an attitude that's on him and it's going to make his transition back to the lineup much tougher but that's on him and that's his choice.

NDD

quote:

Oh and coach, it seems you think I am talking specifically about The Kid. I'm not.

I realize you weren't talking about your kid but if you go back through your posts and re-read them you'll notice a LOT of times when you say "we" or "us" instead of "him" or "he". It does send the message that you are talking about your son. I understand that you posted a very general question and a lot of your answers were general in nature but there were some "we" and "us" in your posts to personalize it.

Like I said - I don't have a problem with you and I said if I'm misunderstanding you please correct me. But the way I read it you cannot allow a high school player to go through an 0 - 15 slump (or whatever) without taking them out of the lineup because it's mental or physical in nature.

quote:

Like I said - I don't have a problem with you and I said if I'm misunderstanding you please correct me. But the way I read it you cannot allow a high school player to go through an 0 - 15 slump (or whatever) without taking them out of the lineup because it's mental or physical in nature.

What I am saying is "Hit or Sit" is not going to fix a slump. It is going to make it worse in a vast majority of the cases.

We have come along way from your original post.

As for the players, if low finish is hitting in practice how is his game problem mechanical?

Did you not read the whole post? I clearly explained how it's mechanical which leads to a mental problem.

quote:

What I am saying is "Hit or Sit" is not going to fix a slump. It is going to make it worse in a vast majority of the cases.

This mentality will cause you to lose more games than you win and will do more to hurt your team. But hey, maybe that one kid will feel good about himself.

If he is hitting the ball in practice then he has overcome the mechanical to a large degree. I read the post, but it doesn't answer the question. it ignores that he says he is hitting the ball in practice.

Another question that has not been answered. How is one player going 0-4, even three games in a row, going to cause a team to lose a game in and of itself?

But hey, maybe putting the blame on that one player will make everyone else feel good about themselves.

Well I have answered those questions and I'm not going to retype the answers or go back and try to cut and paste them for quotes. You can either go back and reread my posts for the answers or not. I'm seriously wondering how you're missing these things in my posts. I truly have no idea.

Let me pose this scenario to you being the coach since you want players to work through slumps.

You got a kid who's 0 - 15 and he's been in situations where a hit or just a productive at bat helps the team but he strikes out.

What do you actually say to him?

What do you tell the guy sitting on the bench behind him who hasn't had a chance to prove if he can play or not?

What do you do if you end up with three guys struggling? I ask this because slumps can become contagious but I'm sure you already know this.

I have read every word of your posts and no the questions being asked have not been answered.

I say to him, before he goes up there, "Bunt." After he comes back, I say "Atta boy!"

I say to the guy sitting on the bench behind him, during practice, "If you want his spot, you have to do this and this in practice."

Slumps can become contagious because players believe they can. How is sitting one going to make the other two hit - out of fear?

quote:

Regardless a game is not the place to work on things and build confidence. Games will destroy confidence much faster than it will build it. This is why you have to develop the confidence before the games start. Sometimes that doesn't happen and the player will struggle.

Game confidence can only come from success in game situations. You can have all the confidence in the world in the cage, if it doesn't translate to results during the game, it will inevitably begin to fade, usually rapidly.

The only way to get it back is to have success in the same place you lost it.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by bigheat27-42:

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Why do you think you do well in practice and not in games? Especially if you know what the problem is with the shoulders flying open.

it's all confidence and approach. In practice, you are relaxed and hitting the ball is fun and doesn't matter but in a game, i'm guessing you tense up and aren't taking the right approach. This is probably what coach was trying to touch on with you.

And coach, there is a time and place for the "if you aren't hitting you're sitting" imho. Same as with all preformance. If a kid goes 0-3 in a game, that happens to the best hitters. but i do agree if that becomes a trend, he should be replaced by another player who gets the job done granted the fact that the replacement will get the job done in the field too. I really think it's about finding the right length of rope for a player. too short of a leash, and confdience is hurt which isn't going to fix the problem. too long of a leash and you just blew a game. and i'm glad you talk to the kid because that doesn't happen a lot and kids don't know what to fix which is why they lose confidence. i'm coming from observations so correct me if i'm wrong because you have probably dealt with this a lot more.

big heat you're pretty close to what I'm thinking. I think Low Finish might be a great example of how drill work is the fix for his problem although on the surface it seems it's mental. It's still mental but my thinking is if he fixes the physical then the mental will fall into place. Obviously without seeing him and working with him I can't say this for a fact but I think it's a possibility.

Low Finish has changed his swing from one type to another type. The mechanics have changed and he now has to erase the old mechanics and put in the new ones. I think we all will agree that this is not an easy fix and will take time. Until he fixes the mechanical the mental will be a problem. When he gets in games he's going to think too much about what he needs to do for his swing. This will lead to the problem of not seeing the ball well. He's not confident with his new mechanics to let his body take over. In order for his body to take over he needs to do drills until the mechanics become second nature then he's got to take cuts until it's natural and finally it will translate into games on a more frequent basis. I have no idea where Low is at in this progression but he's in it. If he's hitting the ball well I will surmise a guess that's he's close to fixing it. BP is easy because it's one pitch, one speed and roughly one location. He can focus on his mechanics to take a good cut and hit it hard but in a game he doesn't have this luxury as people have pointed out.

When you're faced with this situation (I'm not going to call it a problem because it's not - it's a learning process) it doesn't matter how many times you let a guy hit in a game or how many times you talk to them on the side to hear how he feels or any of that. The player has to work through it with drills and cuts in the cage. He's got to develop that confidence in his body and the coach can help that by providing help during practice. Saying "atta boy - you almost have it" after striking out in the game won't allow this change to happen. It's going to make matters worse until the player is totally destroyed with everything - probably affect his fielding by this point.

Obviously you never want to make this change during the season but sometimes when you make the change in the offseason it hasn't set in by the start of the season. If you start out struggling with the new mechanics and you're hurting the team you have to sit down until you get it. Plain and simple.

If it's not a mechanical problem and truly mental then this is where a day off may help. Or possibly just getting into some drills to refresh the muscle memory to build that confidence back up.

I agree with you that my problem is about 90% mental. There are some mechanical aspects. However, my mechanical problems tend to iron themselves out eventually. I take a ton of dry swings every day (somewhere between 50-100) I do this with a 32 oz wood bat. I do not wear gloves (because I do not wear them in games). It's 95 degrees most days here, and the humidity is terrible. I get a lot of work off the tee in the late afternoon (around 7-9 PM).

I don't do so many drills as I do dry swings. Yes, I do the Epstein Numbers from time to time, and I have used the Torque Drill as well. I also do some variations (Long 3, Short 3). I'm looking into buying an Insider Bat or a Thunderstick (I think that's what it's called).

The problems that I've experienced have been mostly mental. Not seeing the ball well, being too far out in front, and not anticipating the pitch have been several of my issues. There have been a few mechanical problems (spinning, not coiling, and uppercutting rather than a proper swing plane).

There's no game confidence or practice confidence, there's just plain ol confidence. If you're not confident going in from practice you wont magically develop it during the game. This is what im getting by tying physical and mental together. You have to be strong mechanically in order to be strong mentally. If you're changing mechanics then you will suffer mentally and possibly make matters worse.

Look at Jeter start of the year. He tried to change mechanically before the season and he wasn't performing which led to a slump. His head was in the toilet due to him not believing in his mechanics.

Im sorry you don't understand this but its pretty simple. And because you can't find my answers don't mean they aren't there.

LOL, OK coach. You;'re right and I'm wrong. There has never been a player that could rake in the cage and not during a game because of a lack of confidence in one environment and not the other.

Jeter tried to change his mechanics because he listened to people tell him he wasn't hitting and looked at his batting average. And you just pretty much proved my point. Thank you.

I do understand what you are saying, I just completely disagree. A player does not go from hitting one day and not the next because of mechanics. He develops bad mechanics because he starts jacking with them because he isn't getting results on the field (but is raking in the cage usually). He thinks he's doing something wrong and he knows if he doesn't hit, he'll sit.

Just about everybody in the world wants to "help" a slumping hitter by "correcting" mechanics, but the problem is elsewhere.

It has been an interesting discussion. I think the need for outside hitting instructors has been clearly established.

Just because you disagree doesn't mean you're right. I never said this...

quote:

A player does not go from hitting one day and not the next because of mechanics.

and it's not the point of my argument. There's no point in telling you to go back and re-read my posts because you would never find them. You haven't found anything yet.

Nothing has been established in your favor from this discussion other than you don't understand simple concepts.

I'm done trying to prove the definition of insanity is wrong.